what about professionalism?

One of main reasons - I've been to some monthlies where half the money was taken out and the winner get's 80% of it and only 1/4 are paid, etc.....at least in PDGA events I can have some kind of idea once the event starts how many people will get paid.

greater potential turnout, more consistency in what you can expect, generally better advertised, in addition to professionalism and the poll answers.

this is not to say that all unsanctioned events lack these things- i run one unsanctioned event which has had a full field for next years event since this march (prior to this years event). for unsanctioned events to be successful on a large scale (draw more than local players) they need some sort of "hook" imo, whether this hook be long history, innovative format, great course, widely known/respected td, etc.

Because I don't want to play with people who are smoking drugs or getting drunk on the course.

At least in a PDGA event I can have them DQ'd for it.

________________________________________

I like supporting the PDGA.

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I also play non-sanctioned events. But I prefer sanctioned.

The only reason I play sanctioned events is because most unsanctioned events have crappy turnouts and crappy players.

That and they give me a rating and keep track of my points. That is if the TD isnt to lazy to input the scores and finish the TD report.

When I turn pro I will go where the money is. Pure and simple. The PDGA has a monopoly on competitive tournament play and if someone were to come up with something thats the same or better most if not all the members would leave. That just a fact!!!

How about someone goes around to tournaments and asks the players what they really think about the PDGA and sanctioned tournaments??? I bet you would be surprised at the responses you got about the PDGA.

You left out the major reason for me: tour standards.

I have an unrealistic expectation that I won't have to deal with pot smoking on my card when I sign up for a PDGA sanctioned event. I have nothing against this activity or people who enjoy it, as long as they do it in the privacy of their homes and not in my face. I do not partake, and I do not have any desire to be stuck with a group of people who are actively breaking the law during the round. If pot smoking were legal in that park, I would have no problems with people lighting up during rounds.

I agree with Rooster and Rhett. I like rules. Rules and laws have reasons and are usually set after lots of thought and deliberation. Without rules, it is actually just payng to play casual.
My only other reason for playing in any event is the hope to play with some other women. That does not have to be a sanctioned event however.

This year, its competition and points. After I get a worlds invite, it will be competition and ratings. I probably make 3 non-sanctioned events a year, and the ones in this area are not too bad. The competition is good, the paticipants are mostly ok, and the fun is still there. As long as it stays fun...I show up.

I have more focus at sancitoned events I think. Those tourneys are more 'for real' to me I guess. And certainly this year...I am more concerned with getting points, so the sancitoned events win out this year.

There can be quality non-sanctioned events. Look at the MSDGC, or Southern Nationals(was un sanctioned until recently I believe). There is a big difference between local club events/monthlies and these however. At this year's MSDGC I saw almost no difference between that event and a NT quality event, except that I'm sure we had more fun!

I think there are a few benifits to not sanctioning an event
-more money in the purse
- no set rules(tournament has options)
- no set event format (# of holes, etc.)
-no purse/payout guidlines

Though there are quality unsanctioned events out there, there are good reasons to avoid those you are unfamiliar with.

- none of the entry fee supports the PDGA.
- no guarantee that PDGA rules will be enforced.
- unexpected formats may be used.
- no purse/payout guidlines.

I like these points you brought up.

I am wondering why a tourney must be sanctioned to include the scores into your ratings. This sounds kinda stupid in my opinion.

If the PDGA supported discgolf on all levels they would change this to reflect how the players feel.

Beyond the obvious point that tournaments interested in generating ratings for their players will sanction their events, the points listed above regarding standardized rules and formats prevent easily including unsanctioned events into the ratings.

It may be a five card tournament, or mulligans every 4th hole. Without sanctioning agreements and TD reporting, there is no way to be sure of the formats or rules.

Part of the fees collected by the PGDA for sanctioned events go to cover the cost of implementing/updating the player ratings. Why should an event that doesn't pay to support the system be allowed the benefits of the system?

I used to run an annual non-sanctioned event in Minnesota. The main reason was to make entry fees lower and encourage new players. It is alot easier to ask a novice player to pay $10.00 to play in an event than $17.00. ($10.00 entry, $2.00 C Tier fee, plus $5.00 non PDGA member fee.) This allowed new players be exposed to the competitive side of disc golf without the high entry fees. The PDGA now offers this type of experience with D tier events. There are low entry fees, membership in the PDGA is not required so there is no $5.00 fee charged for not being a PDGA member. Plus PDGA members get to earn points as well. TD's that are currently running unsanctioned events because of high PDGA fees/costs should look into the D-Tier option. This is just one way the PDGA supports disc golf at all levels.



Can you share with us what will a TD have to pay to your organization to be eligible to hold a sanctioned event?
Would a TD need to be a member to host an event?
Would there be some type of certification for TD's to be tournament directors?
Would there be a per player fee?
Would players have to be members to compete in your events?
What will the player and/or organizer receive in return for these event fees and membership fees?

There's a tournament in Idaho that I played the last two years. The first year it wasn't a PDGA event. The second year it was a D tier. They haven't decided which way to go for next year, however, whether it is or it isn't I will be going back. The tournament has been going for 6 or 7 years now, and is always full. I love the course, and will probably always play this one.

I have an unrealistic expectation that I won't have to deal with pot smoking on my card when I sign up for a PDGA sanctioned event. I have nothing against this activity or people who enjoy it, as long as they do it in the privacy of their homes and not in my face.




smoking in your face is wrong. However, I have ever right in cali to smoke outside of my home?



I do not partake, and I do not have any desire to be stuck with a group of people who are actively breaking the law during the round.





not always a correct assumption....



If pot smoking were legal in that park, I would have no problems with people lighting up during rounds.




it is for me in cali unless otherwise stated as no smoking due to fire risk.

Just trying to open some minds here.

In my area, many of the true old school hubs have non sanctioned events that are great. You have the chance to play with masters, legends and even women who might never get out to 2day events anymore.

3 rounds @ highland springs for 'ween. Do you really want that last glow round on your ratings detail?

have fun...

http://www.canorml.org/

http://images.google.com/images?q=burning+man+photos&hl=en&hs=GAj&lr=&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&sa=N&tab=ii&oi=imagest

http://www.fas.org/irp/program/process/echelon.htm

I looked through quite a bit of that stuff, and found no mention of smoking in public being allowed. Now by prescription, users are allowed to grow and store amounts for personal use, but there was no mention that public usage was now allowed. In fact the legal section stated that possession outside of prop 215 was still illegal and ticketable.

If pot smoking were legal in that park, I would have no problems with people lighting up during rounds.




it is for me in cali unless otherwise stated as no smoking due to fire risk.


Can you provide a link to anything that states that you have the "right" smoke marijuana in public? I am fairly certain that your little drug card only allows you to smoke it in the privacy of your home.

I'm all for glaucoma and cancer patients easing their pain, but doctors in "cali" currently advertise to ger more clients and they are handing out pot prescriptions like they use to hand out 'scipts for black beauties to any welfare momma who was 10 pounds overweight. I'm saying most of those prescriptions are bogus and should be pulled, and that everyone who gets one without needing it for something put every cancer patient wsho could really use it at risk of losing it.

I have no reference for you concerning your question.

However, you are correct in thinking that the ID cards don't mean much. They are just a quick way for local enforcement officers to determine the legitimacy of a situation. You can still be arrested for in public or private.

This is the same way for any law though....you are at the mercy of the enforcement officer determination of the situation at the given time.

Beyond the obvious point that tournaments interested in generating ratings for their players will sanction their events, the points listed above regarding standardized rules and formats prevent easily including unsanctioned events into the ratings.

It may be a five card tournament, or mulligans every 4th hole. Without sanctioning agreements and TD reporting, there is no way to be sure of the formats or rules.



How about randomly mixed divisional and class groups in the first round? Can that cause scoring irregularities?

dont know if it could cause irregularities, but it sure does stink. last weekend's tourney did that... its an aweseom event, but man i hate not playing against my competition in the first rounds of a three round plus final 9 event!!!

For me it is all about the rules structure, the pay out structure (entering a PDGA event you know how you will be paid), and boy does it ever stink to play on a mixed card that first round. Especially when it is only a two round tournament.

The SN and PDGA have not merged. There are a few TD's who dual sanction the tournament. You have the PDGA tier fee and the SN fee coming out of each persons entry, dual sanctioning really kills payouts.

But I am going to reference that D-teir for my USDGC State Rep tournament for the spring. That sounds like a good idea.

For me it is all about the rules structure, the pay out structure (entering a PDGA event you know how you will be paid), and boy does it ever stink to play on a mixed card that first round. Especially when it is only a two round tournament.



You can have a tournament that plays by PDGA rules but isnt sanctioned and I dont know what tournaments you play but I have had some of the most rediculous payouts EVER at PDGA events. I played a B Tier with 60+ advanced players all playing 43 dollars (or close to it) with 700 added to the Am payout (for what reason I dont know) and first place was paid out 115 dollars and trophy. I took 3rd and got 77 and trophy. The person who took 35th place got 32 dollars. I think they should pay the top 20 percent and thats it but thats just me. I wish they would stick to the PDGAs top 3rd rules. The things is the PDGA sets all these "Guidelines" for TDs and when they dont follow them whats happens??? NOTHING!!! Slap on the wrist and a "Just make sure to do this next time" Its rediculous. I know its hard to run an event but if you are going to take on teh responsibility and the task then do it right do it by the book and make everyone happy.

And about the mixing divisions thing. I played the DGLO last year in the Advanced division and had an 8 year old on my card the first round. Which is complete BS!!! Then this year at the Brent Hambrick I was paired first round with an Intermidiate women who pretty much threw sideways about every other throw. I mean I dont mind mixing of division but this was REDICULOUS. Thats like putting a junior on a card with Ken Climo Barry Schultz and Dave Feldburg. How are you supposed to get in a grove and start feeling it when all your doing is looking for other peopls discs and watching them throw sideways on almost every hole??? Especially when that person isnt even in your division??? Thats just rediculous.


The SN and PDGA have not merged. There are a few TD's who dual sanction the tournament. You have the PDGA tier fee and the SN fee coming out of each persons entry, dual sanctioning really kills payouts.




I agree with you on that one but there is really nothing that can be done about that except not sanctioning the tournaments :eek:

And about the mixing divisions thing. I played the DGLO last year in the Advanced division and had an 8 year old on my card the first round. Which is complete BS!!! Then this year at the Brent Hambrick I was paired first round with an Intermidiate women who pretty much threw sideways about every other throw. I mean I dont mind mixing of division but this was REDICULOUS. Thats like putting a junior on a card with Ken Climo Barry Schultz and Dave Feldburg. How are you supposed to get in a grove and start feeling it when all your doing is looking for other peopls discs and watching them throw sideways on almost every hole??? Especially when that person isnt even in your division??? Thats just rediculous.



Did you just compare yourself to Barry and Kenny?

Get over yourself dood.

The 8 year old at DGLO was dumb, especially at a tournament where his spot would have been filled by someone else. I think that had to do more with discretion by the TD than PDGA rules though.

Did you just compare yourself to Barry and Kenny?

Get over yourself dood.



Im just saying what the comparison is like. Im not comparing myself to them at all. Get a life bro. You try and play with a 8 year old at a SuperTour and then a Intermediate women at another SuperTour while your playing in the Mens Advanced division then see how you feel about it. Oh wait, I forgot your annon and dont have a PDGA membership so you wouldnt know anything about SuperTours anyway :eek:

I think they should pay the top 20 percent and thats it but thats just me. I wish they would stick to the PDGAs top 3rd rules. The things is the PDGA sets all these "Guidelines" for TDs and when they dont follow them whats happens??? NOTHING!!!



It sounds like you would prefer that TDs follow the guidelines.

Have you looked at the PDGA recommendations lately ? They have been simplified, and now there are only 2. One for Ams and one for Pros. Pro payout options are 40% or 49%-50%, and Am payout options are 42%-46% or 50%.

The 50%ish ranges are to be used when there is significant added cash.

For reference:
2005 pay tables (http://www.pdga.com/documents/td/05PayTables.pdf)

It sounds like you would prefer that TDs follow the guidelines.

Have you looked at the PDGA recommendations lately ? They have been simplified, and now there are only 2. One for Ams and one for Pros. Pro payout options are 40% or 49%-50%, and Am payout options are 42%-46% or 50%.

The 50%ish ranges are to be used when there is significant added cash.



That is insane!!!

We get more money in the purses so now we are going to pay the less skilled people instead of paying the skilled people more??? Doesnt seem logical or fair to me :confused:

kinda like a payout for Ams.

think McFly, think

kinda like a payout for Ams.

think McFly, think



What are you talking about??? Thats not even relative to what we are talking about.

Dont sweat that dude. He is just looking for someone to argue with. His mommy did not hold him enough. :D

talk about the kettle calling the pot black :eek: :D

I did not mean to infer that PDGA Am payouts were great, I have been to many unsanctioned tournaments with stellar payouts. All I was saying is that the PDGA has a structured payout system. You know what you are getting yourself into. If it is a flat payout like you described, typically you will get a decent players pack. It is a trade off.

Of course I guess I show some bias towards a trophy only structure, but obviously I am in the minority on that matter.

In the SN, it is tradition to mix divisions for the first round. Playing with better people helps you during practice. All it will do during a tournament round is make the lessor players feel worse about doing poorly because they have to watch pros throw for the entire round. The logic baffles me. But in the SN "It is all about the fun". So that is why I choose to drive 4-8 hours for a PDGA event. Because while I always have fun while playing disc golf, I don't pay +$40 and travel to a tournament to have fun. I do it to compete.

Let me get this straight.

First you said

The things is the PDGA sets all these "Guidelines" for TDs and when they dont follow them whats happens??? NOTHING!!! Slap on the wrist and a "Just make sure to do this next time" Its rediculous. I know its hard to run an event but if you are going to take on teh responsibility and the task then do it right do it by the book and make everyone happy.



Then when you saw the pay tables you said:

That is insane!!!

We get more money in the purses so now we are going to pay the less skilled people instead of paying the skilled people more??? Doesnt seem logical or fair to me



Which one is it ?

We get more money in the purses so now we are going to pay the less skilled people instead of paying the skilled people more??? Doesnt seem logical or fair to me :confused:



This statement is made every so often by:
a) A Pro golfer talking about the Amatuer divisions.
b) A top Advanced golfer talking about the rest of the Amatuer players.
c) Both.

Seems to me, one option is missing from the poll.

"I would *not* choose a sanctioned event over an unsactioned event."

I'll go to either. Sure ratings are a nice feature, but if all things were considered equal I'd choose the unsanctioned. Why you say? Based on my experience, better value (players pack, payouts etc.) And more relaxed rules regarding drinking and puffing on the course.

Each to his/her own. But it seems to me banning pot from the disc golf course would be like banning it from a grateful dead concert. Seems to me it's inherit in the scene is what I'm saying. But if you don't like it and don't want it around, feel free to skip the unsanctioned events and stick the pdga events.

But if you don't like it and don't want it around, feel free to skip the unsanctioned events and stick [to] the pdga events.


That would be a fantastic compromise if we could get all concerned "parties" to agree. :)

Let me get this straight.

First you said

The things is the PDGA sets all these "Guidelines" for TDs and when they dont follow them whats happens??? NOTHING!!! Slap on the wrist and a "Just make sure to do this next time" Its rediculous. I know its hard to run an event but if you are going to take on teh responsibility and the task then do it right do it by the book and make everyone happy.



Then when you saw the pay tables you said:

That is insane!!!

We get more money in the purses so now we are going to pay the less skilled people instead of paying the skilled people more??? Doesnt seem logical or fair to me



Which one is it ?



I thought that the pay charts were still the top 3rd which I thought was a little to much but no big deal but paying 40-50 percent of the field is just insane. Im not saying that cuz im a top Advanced golfer either. Those extra pro spots would be my occasional cash if I moved up this year but I dont think its fair. The purses are going up and the added cash is getting bigger and what does the PDGA do. They decide to pay it down to the lower ranked guys. Sure that great for the guys like me who want to move up but I dont think its fair to the good pros that the sport is getting more money and they arent getting any of it.

I can understand paying out more in the Am divisions to get more people to move up and play more tournaments but in the Pro division I think the top 3rd is more then enough and 40-50 percent is just rediculous.

I think the intention was to allow more players to cash in an attempt to stop the "move up, move out" problem. Where the top ADV players were strongly nudged into PRO, never cashed, and then quit playing. The falttening of the am payouts may be an attempt to remove the "professional AM" class of player and make the division more of a competition for the sake of competition without removing performance based payout completely.

I think the intention was to allow more players to cash in an attempt to stop the "move up, move out" problem. Where the top ADV players were strongly nudged into PRO, never cashed, and then quit playing. The falttening of the am payouts may be an attempt to remove the "professional AM" class of player and make the division more of a competition for the sake of competition without removing performance based payout completely.


I can almost understand this concept. I have a friend that played Am very well then, he played one pro doubles tourney and cashed. Now he doesn't play any tourneys at all because he has to play pro.