I mean how exactly are you supposed to have a fair competition if everyone is playing by their own sense of right and wrong and not a common set of rules?

I was at a local series event this past weekend, had a great time, but they actually have a rule (like scrabble I guess) where you are not allowed to pull out a rule book? LOL!

It makes you respect the work the PDGA Rules Committee did in keeping our rule book so simple and concise; if they had made it into a series of law journals imagine what we would have!?! Sure Bruce would have a field day arguing that his putt actually went in even though it is on the ground next to the basket, but wouldn't that get old quick? ;)

so if there is a rule that says you can't pull out your rule book and someone doesn't this rule and they want to check it, how do they do that? :D

That's what a "phone a friend" lifeline is for :D

if its so simple and concise, then leave it alone. especiallly rules that make complete sense like the 2MR.

It amazes me when I tell a seasoned player about a rule. Sooooooooo many people have never read a rule book.

Nick, those locals (including me) play by the rules, but at these non-sanctioned events we want to have fun, hence the no rulebook rule. We abide by the rules, but pulling out your pdga rulebook at these local events is a courtsey violation :D

Nick Kight wrote in the Posting of Tournament Results thread: (http://www.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?Board=Rules%20&%20Standards&Number=425718&Searchpage=0&Main=425473&Search=true&#Post425718)


Remember, running events is not a paid job, it is a very thoughtful and expensive (in more than one way) "GIFT" to you and the sport. Be appreciative first and nudge them to do the right thing "in private" rather than a "good ol' DISCussion Board Witch Hunt".





Being a volunteer doesn't give you a right to complain about other volunteers efforts, it gives you even more reason to be appreciative and courteous to them. To understand how you like to be approached about issues and challenges with your volunteer work, and approach others out of that understanding. I know that I am not perfect in this regard, but if we all just try, things should work out a little better for all concerned.





It doesn't take much research to figure out which tournament and tournament director you are talking about. All I'm saying, again, is that there is no need for that.

I know you're just continuing to follow Nick around and try to make him out to be a hypocrite, Jeff, but I don't believe he's trying to call out anyone specific or complaining about the event in particular (believe me there are events like this all over the place). What he's started with this thread is pretty consistent with his on-going crusade of "KFC" and he's using this recent event as an example.

I understand the sentiment posted by Matt in that it's supposed to be a relaxed and fun non-sanctioned event. But it's that attitude --if it's non-PDGA or a monthly, the rules don't mean as much-- that breeds the lackadasical way in which the rules are enforced in general at all events. It is from these small, fun, non-sanctioned local events that tomorrow's tournament players emerge, and if they're coming from a background of ignorance or blatant disregard for the established rules of play, how can we expect anything but that when they do "graduate" to bigger tournament play? If newer players are taught at their local events that any person who brings out the rulebook is considered in the "wrong", then how is a PDGA official or marshall at a larger event supposed to be viewed by those same players?

I believe that is the larger point to which Nick is trying to get at, and I don't think he's singling anyone out in trying to make it. It's a valid concern, IMO. It is possible to have fun while still following the rules including pulling the book out to check that they are being followed correctly.

--Josh

In theory, I actually agree with both you and Nick about following the rules - they are the foundation of the game.

However, it seems pretty obvious to me that is simply another case of Nick's inability to interact socially with other people. I'm willing to bet that his fellow competitors picked up on that and decided to "work him" a bit over a rules issue, and this vilification is the only way to make it right in his mind.

And by including the fact that it was a "local series event this past weekend" it's pretty obvious which tournament and group of players he was referring to - my local club. When he complained about the person in the other thread and basically made similar comments here, that's hypocritical.

Remember this is the guy who couldn't handle someone making a comment to him during a tournament about a stuck disc in a tree. It's been over two months, so I don't think I'm going to hear from the Disciplinary Committee. They aren't going to back up such nonsense.

Considering the person who brought it up, this doesn't sound like a big deal. Bottom line is that Nick can't get along with others, and simply doesn't know how to have FUN anymore.

If you read my entire post, I state we abide by the rules layed down by the pdga. Most of us are pdga officals so hence we know the rules and follow them. Come on out to an AMMO here in the Lehigh Valley and see for yourself or don't, doesn't matter to us. :D

I find it interesting that you feel that players can not have fun knowing, following and calling the rules. In other words real disc golf is not fun, right? Just smarmy, "It's not like it's the worlds or anything!?!" rounds can be fun.

This IMO is the culture that fosters the attitude that players that know, follow and call the rules are some kind of d!cks while everyone else halfarsing it are cool.

Am I reading you wrong?


Nick, those locals (including me) play by the rules, but at these non-sanctioned events we want to have fun, hence the no rulebook rule. We abide by the rules, but pulling out your pdga rulebook at these local events is a courtsey violation :D

Did it affect your play on Saturday? What are you really trying to say? I don't buy that bunk you are selling. :confused:

BTW we do call rules violations, I know Justin got stroked for an incorrect score awhile back. When I went ob on hole #5 at JC I played from the drop zone and got my 4.

Sounds to me you were offended that you got razzed for pulling out your rulebook and you just can't handle the good natured ribbing that followed. :D

Word, Matt. You hit the nail on the head.

Hey , the San Diego Chargers got a Win !!!!!!!

My Ladies in my Avatar , are Happy again !!!!!!

New England will be a tough group to handle though , next week. They always seem to pull off the win !!!!! :D

Matt,

You misunderstand me.

My concerns are with why players seem to be proud of not knowing the rules, like it is a badge of honor to not know, OR WANT TO KNOW the rules. This at the very foundation of why we have the weak reputation as a sport we do and moreover why we have the culture of "it's not cool to know or call the rules" we absolutely do have.

This is about more than 2 minutes of a round this past weekend. I know that the guys I was playing with were perfectly serious about playing by the rules, otherwise they wouldn�t have asked me about an unsafe lie in the first place. What it is about, and why I started this thread is the overall and generalized attitude of �Rules are for Tools� that I have found at nearly every level of disc golf. Something that I would like to reverse the culture of so that folks have a little pride in their game and in knowing and protecting it against those who would do harm to it through ignorance or out of spite.

I knew it was a bit of a joke when they said it. But in my opinion it is a joke at the expense of folks taking a little pride in knowing, following and calling the rules correctly. I mean what do you call someone who has a question about something, has a resource with the answer right in it, but decides it's not cool to check it out?

I'd almost equate it to the way some players give hard times to players that don't smoke pot during rounds. It is unbelievable to have folks actually try to make you feel guilty for not wanting to smoke during rounds. "C'mon man! Relax! Have a good time! What's wrong with you? It's not like it's the Worlds or something!" They use those exact lines when you even mention a correct ruling and it is simply unbelievable that any disc golfer worth a lick would support such a lazy and unconsidered position valid or amusing.

Again, I am not attacking the good folks in Allentown, whom obviously I respect and enjoy playing with, being I have hardly missed a single event they�ve held in 2005 (unlike some folks here); I am merely pointing out that, in my opinion, we need to work overly hard if we hope to ever turn the tide of lax rules knowledge, following and calling towards one of pride in knowing and honor in protecting.

Nick.........this thread is lame.

But the point is not.

Nick.........this thread is lame.



When you post the level of lameness is always likely to jump. ;)

I think the answer is some take the game more seriously than others. How many pages do we need to go through before this is acknolwledged? :confused:

Nick.........this thread is lame.



When you post the level of lameness is always likely to jump. ;)



Coming from you this is a huge compliment. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Nick.........this thread is lame.



But the point is not.



If this were a widespread phenomenon I might be concerned. But it seems obvious to me that this incident is a projection of someone who can't handle an inside joke at a local low-stakes unsanctioned event.

In the present day context where not nearly enough players have thoroughly read or understood the rules, not allowing rule book consultation is pretty sad. A better inside joke might be for everybody to play rule zealot and have their rule books open for the entire round... and if an infraction might occur they could say the rule's number out loud ... /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

were all the players involved thoroughly versed in the rules?

If this were a widespread phenomenon I might be concerned. But it seems obvious to me that this incident is a projection of someone who can't handle an inside joke at a local low-stakes unsanctioned event.


While I frequently agree with that assessment of nick's intentions, I think he is bringing up a valid point.

Jeff, let's drop the "Nick tactics" on this one and discuss the topic at hand. We can always put nick on ignore to keep the discussion on track. But we should try advance the conversation.

ALL the players involved know the rules, all are pdga members and a majority of them are pdga officials :cool:

The root cause of this problem occurs long before we ever fail to call a rule on someone in a tournament. It begins the moment we move from simply throwing a "frisbee" to attempting to negotiate a disc golf hole from start to finish without having been taught the rules which govern how we may accomplish that task.

Take baseball, for example. Like throwing the frisbee, we first start out playing catch with Dad (or Mom). Then maybe we move to swinging a bat. We are going through the basic motions of baseball, but we have yet to learn any rules. As soon as we join a little league baseball team, however, the rules become an integral part, and the coaches take the time and effort to teach them to each and every member of the team. The coaching staff enforces adherence to the rules during practices, and the coaches and umpires share that responsibility during game play.

In disc golf, however, there is no formal training process we go through which exposes us to the rules as an integral part of our learning how to play. We throw the discs, learn how to get better at throwing the discs, start playing local courses, play some minis, and eventually move up to playing sanctioned events. This entire process can, and often does, happen without any exposure to a PDGA rulebook. Often, as we start playing rounds locally with our buddies, or in playing the local minis, we pick up some of the basics. If we're lucky, one of the locals with some tournament experience and exposure to PDGA rules will take us under their wing and teach us how to play according to the rules, but this doesn't always happen.

So, we end up with golfers who are adept at throwing their discs, but may or may not have any idea of how to play the game in accordance with the PDGA rules. What's worse, we sometimes encounter a golfer in a sanctioned tournament who is playing according to some localized variations on the PDGA rules, because that's the only rules he's ever known, and does not understand when he gets called for a violation.

The solution to this problem is a relatively simple one, but not without a good deal of effort on each and everyone's part. First and foremost, we each need to be familiar with the current PDGA rules. Secondly, regardless of the level of play, if you see someone violating the rules, point it out to the person in a non-adversarial manner. Everyone who runs a local mini should take it upon themselves to run it according to the PDGA rules.

Only when the PDGA-approved rules are used at every level will we see this type of problem begin to go away.

let's drop the "Nick tactics" on this one and discuss the topic at hand. We can always put nick on ignore to keep the discussion on track. But we should try advance the conversation.



Okay.

Then back to the discussion on hand. Any incidents besides Nick's isolated one?
.
.
.
[sound of crickets chirping]
.
.
.
That's what I thought. :D

My concerns are with why players seem to be proud of not knowing the rules, like it is a badge of honor to not know, OR WANT TO KNOW the rules. This at the very foundation of why we have the weak reputation as a sport we do and moreover why we have the culture of "it's not cool to know or call the rules" we absolutely do have.

This is about more than 2 minutes of a round this past weekend. I know that the guys I was playing with were perfectly serious about playing by the rules, otherwise they wouldn�t have asked me about an unsafe lie in the first place. What it is about, and why I started this thread is the overall and generalized attitude of �Rules are for Tools� that I have found at nearly every level of disc golf. Something that I would like to reverse the culture of so that folks have a little pride in their game and in knowing and protecting it against those who would do harm to it through ignorance or out of spite.

Again, when Nick Kight makes blanket statements such as "we have the culture of 'it's not cool to know or call the rules'" and "the overall and generalized attitude of 'Rules are for Tools' that I have found at nearly every level of disc golf" with only one isolated incident to support those claims, I'm just a little dubious. We all know how he sees the world through the bizarro filter his mind has created.

On the other hand, look at the "Why does it seems like everyone thinks your a D!CK if you enforce the rules???" thread. Seems like quite a few golfers from different areas of the country are chiming in with personal experiences to that effect. It's definitely something I'm much more inclined to give credence to.

let's drop the "Nick tactics" on this one and discuss the topic at hand. We can always put nick on ignore to keep the discussion on track. But we should try advance the conversation.



Okay.

Then back to the discussion on hand. Any incidents besides Nick's isolated one?
.
.
.
[sound of crickets chirping]
.
.
.
That's what I thought. :D



Where do I begin? Would it be the time I was derisively called a "boy scout" for telling a player not to throw practice shots while we were waiting on a tee in the middle of a round or maybe it would be the time that one of the fellows in my group became visably incensed (so much so that he was still b!tching about me after the tournament) because I wouldn't allow him to pick up my disc from under the basket when he wanted to just call it a gimme and I wanted to putt it out. Both players used the "aw, it's just a fun event, no need to be a stickler" defense and suddenly I'm the d!ick for wanting to play my own disc by the rules. Imagine if I tried to add a stroke to my score for being out of bounds...I might have been lynched.

Maybe I'm wrong, but even in a "fun" small local event, it isn't unreasonable to expect the rules to be followed and certainly one should not have to deal with being marginalized or chastised (even in jest) for knowing and playing by the rules. And to not be in on the "inside joke" is no reason to dismiss concerns about such practices.

--Josh

ALL the players involved know the rules, all are pdga members and a majority of them are pdga officials :cool:



All the players involved "did not" know the rules Matt, all might well be PDGA members and a majority of them even pdga officials, but that does not equate to "knowing the rules". I can say that with 100% accuracy because I am a PDGA Member and Official and even I don't know the rules all the time... that is why I carry a rule book.

Without fail, most bad or misinterpreted rulings come from folks too proud to pull out their rule book (if they even carry one... because it's not cool to carry one right?), and they make it up as they go.

Without going into total detail, there was a question about "Unplayable Lie" (which is not even found in our rule book) so I looked up "Unsafe Lie" and explained it. If I had not and the guy in the thorn bush listened to the first guy, the guy under the bush would have been playing from 5 meters back under the other 10 foot thorn bush rather than within 5 meters no closer to the hole out in the fairway.

I know you think you are defending your boys Matt, but there is no need. This is not about them directly, but about the general attitude folks have towards knowing, following and calling the rules as best they can. Something I think you and I would agree needs some work.

I agree that ALL players should know the rules, carry a rulebook and make calls when needed.

I just think you are being a little too sensitive about this. I never have had a problem with you nor do I feel like there is one now, we just a different view on this. Nothing more, nothing less :D

BTW do you have a spare QB the Jets could borrow?

Hey, I hear y'all got Vinnie back... aren't you comfortable enough with that? :eek: :D

hey wait a second everybody.... wasnt this a non-sanctioned, for-fun, casual round? if so, whats the big deal about making up a rule? even if the rule is "thou shalt not open the rulebook"?

i mean, did ya ever take a look at the RIPT game? talk about making up some crazy stuff!

seems to me this is a case of "when-in-rome" and not much more needs to be said about it.

seems to me this is a case of "when-in-rome" and not much more needs to be said about it.


Except that at 2005 Worlds when a guy on my card made the right call and gave a guy a 7 for the hole he was late for, and the late guy missed the cut by one stroke, the late guy didn't want to "be in Rome". He whined and cryed all night to the TD until the TD let him play the semi-final. And in the lobby and on the course I kept hearing about the a-holes who screwed over some poor guy that was "running up to the tee when it was his turn". (Not true.)

And then at 2004 Worlds when I made the call on a guy who moved a large obstacle from in front of his lie. A member of the PDGA BOD was on the guy's card and wouldn't back me up. Then the TD for the course didn't know the rules and dismissed the call. The group with the offending player used the incident to get all [I'm a potty-mouth!] off, form an "us against the world" attitude, and whine and cry for the whole round and afterwards. I was so [I'm a potty-mouth!] off by the whole "course TD at Worlds doesn't know the rules" thing that I just split and went to my hotel. Good thing, because I later heard about "some ******* who made a puzzy rules call and was going to get his [I'm a potty-mouth!] beat in the parking lot".

Yeah, I'd say it's not an issue at all in PDGA tournament play. Especially not at the highest level events. :mad:

I agree that ALL players should know the rules, carry a rulebook and make calls when needed.

I just think you are being a little too sensitive about this. I never have had a problem with you nor do I feel like there is one now, we just a different view on this. Nothing more, nothing less :D

BTW do you have a spare QB the Jets could borrow?



I understand Matt. This is just a bigger issue for me I guess. I do wish the Ammo would reconsider that sort of policy. I know it is just in fun, but it promotes the wrong attitude at a time when the right attitude is in dire need of support and nurturing.

I do kind of understand where the attitude about the rules during casual play comes from. A couple of weeks ago me and a couple of buddies were playing a weekly blind draw doubles event and 2 of my buddies got paired up together. I also got a partner and started on the same hole as my 2 buddies. Well, one of the guys has been playing golf for a long time but has never played a tournament of any kind, the guy that was my partner casually mentioned to him about his foot placement. My buddy didn't get mad the first time but the second time he got a little agrivated. It was tough for me to take sides but I did take the side of the rule book and tried to explain to my buddy how his foot placement was incorrect.
Well, it kind of took him out of his game for the rest of the round, and now he thinks that the guys who play weekly doubles are "disc golf elitest" or something like that because he was called out. He is not a PDGA memeber so I doubt he has really seen a rule book and I doubt he will ever play at any tournaments. What bothers me is I have been friends with the guy for a long time and I have started to play a lot of tournaments to get better and to play by the rules and I want to do something to change his mind about the situation. I am just not sure how to approach him and make him understand.

This is just a bigger issue for me I guess. I do wish the Ammo would reconsider that sort of policy. I know it is just in fun, but it promotes the wrong attitude at a time when the right attitude is in dire need of support and nurturing.



It's not even a 'policy!' It's a joke! You took it the wrong way! And now you're calling out a specific tournament series (and tournament director) on the PDGA Message Board! You're not only over-sensitive, you're the biggest hypocrite in the world, Nick!

To Rhett, Josh, and the others, thank you for providing concrete, real-life examples for the "Why does it seems like everyone thinks your a D!CK if you enforce the rules???" (http://www.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=441689&page=0&view=collap sed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1) thread. As the title of this thread is "Why are players proud that they don't know the rules?" that NEVER happened, and is simply a figment of Nick's ridiculous imagination.

True Vinny can throw the football better than most, if only he was 10 years younger :D

I think the joke was not to outlaw rule-books, but to outlaw rule book [I'm a potty-mouth!]'s. I've had a guy try to stroke me while I was playing a non competative practice round on a tuesday morning. He is a rule [I'm a potty-mouth!] and thinks that if you don't know the rules by number and interpretation then you are a joke that should stay off the course. He is no fun to have on the course, and I would DNF if I ever ended up on a card with him. Why? not because I don't take the rules seriously, but because he could suck all the fun out of any situation.

It's a game. Leave some room for fun.

I concur!

Yes, you should be having fun when playing a game. But......when you are participating in a "competitive" round, some people think that playing by the rules is part of the pleasure of playing a game. /msgboard/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

rhett, those are great examples of crap in sanctioned events. i could not agree with you more about the inanity of not enforcing the rules in sanctioned play. i felt proud when i observed how decisively and emphatically the par+4 was delivered, explained, reiterated and re-enforced by the course TD, the course Marshall (also a member of of the Rules Committee), and a member of the Competition Committee who happened to be at that course at the time.

but isnt this thread about a casual round where the local custom is to call thr rules but not refer to the book?

but isnt this thread about a casual round where the local custom is to call thr rules but not refer to the book?


I honestly thought that was just an example for a general thread topic about players not knowing the rules.

I'd expect a thread title along the lines of "Why do some players outlaw rule books at casual events?" if that was the intent for the thread. :)

nick, i can assure you that there is no such "policy." just the other day i pulled out the rule book during doubles and i wasn't left hanging from a tree by my underwear. so it's safe to say that no one here is anti-rules. i believe what you have an issue with is more of a cultural phenomenon rather than a disc golf phenomenon. it's funny to poke fun at nerdy rule types.

however i do take exception to the fact that you somehow fall outside this "trap." an example if i may, exhibit A:

this past weekend--hole 18 at jordan. someone in your group threw o.b. in the road. about a meter from the road is a fence. he proceeded to mark his lie inside the fence (well past 1 meter in my group's estimation) and can the put for a circle 3. the question is: why did you let him?

aggh! i think he said he wasn't out of bounds. darn, i thought i had you.

I think it's the type of people that disc golfers are. In a nutshell, many of us are renegades and non-conformists. Many of us INITIALLY got attracted to the sport because of the ultra-casual attitude you find at most courses. You know what I mean. This attitude reeks of "f" the rules. No rules here!

In high school, I was forced to love Led Zeppelin or be cast out by my peers. So I said screw that and started listening to the Grateful Dead because I saw the non-conformists at my school were. The Grateful Dead epitomized the "no rules" attitude. How many disc golfers love the Grateful Dead? I see dancin' bears and Steal Your Face all over discs. Can anyone name another group whose art and music has infiltrated DG as the GD has?

I am naturally attracted to anything that screams of non-conformity and guess what.... disc golf screams of non-conformity. The only thing that resembles conformity in disc golf is, uh, the rule book.

That's why some players are proud to not know the rules. Because they are inherently non-conformist, renegade types. It's not this rule or that rule, it's "the rules". If DG had a rule that mandated marijuana use before every round, you'd see every day smokers refusing to smoke. Disc golf attracts those types of people.

BTW, I am an official, I do know the rules, I play by 99% of the rules in casual play and I have learned how to appreciate Led Zeppelin. But I'll take the Dead over them anyday.

So I said screw that and started listening to the Grateful Dead because the other non-conformists aty school were.


Now dat wuz funny! :)

Roxy Music might've been a better choice. I doubt there a was a group in place at school that required conformance to them!

Grateful Dead & Disc Golf, perfect together. :cool:

So I said screw that and started listening to the Grateful Dead because the other non-conformists aty school were.


Now dat wuz funny! :)

Roxy Music might've been a better choice. I doubt there a was a group in place at school that required conformance to them!



I thought conforming to the behavior patterns of existing nonconformist was slightly amusing as well. :cool:

Nick is a turd burglar! :D

I think the joke was not to outlaw rule-books, but to outlaw rule book [I'm a potty-mouth!]'s. I've had a guy try to stroke me while I was playing a non competative practice round on a tuesday morning. He is a rule [I'm a potty-mouth!] and thinks that if you don't know the rules by number and interpretation then you are a joke that should stay off the course. He is no fun to have on the course, and I would DNF if I ever ended up on a card with him. Why? not because I don't take the rules seriously, but because he could suck all the fun out of any situation.

It's a game. Leave some room for fun.



I appreciate you sharing your thoughts. May I ask if in fact you were "not following the rules" at that time?

If you were, whether practice or competition, you really owe the guy a "thank you" for pointing it out to you so that you can practice or play within the rules of play.

It is all about attitude. You seem to have one that makes you exempt from the rules, or that they should only apply to you if you think it is the right time or place; like in an "uptight" PDGA round, otherwise, "Hey dude! Relax! This is just for fun! It's not like it's the Worlds or anything! Stop being a d!ck!" right?

Nothing is a clearer indication of what kind of sportsman or woman you are as how you handle being called for a rules violation. And it will absolutely happen, no one is perfect and it is a part of the game, so prepare yourself by practicing knowing, following and calling the rules. Make them a part of your game as they should naturally be.

It is the only way we will overcome this quintessentially wrong idea that cheating or ignorance of the rules is some form of cool non-conformity, when in actuallity it is pure "conformity" to the current norms within disc golf play.

Want to be a non-conformist? A rebel? Someone not afraid to stand apart? Then know, follow and call our PDGA Rules of Play.

nick, i can assure you that there is no such "policy." just the other day i pulled out the rule book during doubles and i wasn't left hanging from a tree by my underwear. so it's safe to say that no one here is anti-rules. i believe what you have an issue with is more of a cultural phenomenon rather than a disc golf phenomenon. it's funny to poke fun at nerdy rule types.

however i do take exception to the fact that you somehow fall outside this "trap." an example if i may, exhibit A:

this past weekend--hole 18 at jordan. someone in your group threw o.b. in the road. about a meter from the road is a fence. he proceeded to mark his lie inside the fence (well past 1 meter in my group's estimation) and can the put for a circle 3. the question is: why did you let him?

aggh! i think he said he wasn't out of bounds. darn, i thought i had you.



I agree that it is the cultural norm right now to deny any responsibility for ones own actions, our President is a beacon of light for such attitudes. This does not however make it ok in disc golf. As I have said, this is not so much about the specific joke at the AMMO, as it is just another indication of the general conformist idea that knowing, following and calling rules is "uncool". As is probably clear as day I don't give a krap about being percieved as "cool". I feel no compunction to advertise or brag about being a non-conformist. Why should I when it is self-evident.

But if knowing, following and calling the rules is some kind of "nerdy conformity" then color me pink, I'm a conformist. Without rules there is no meaningful or "fair" competition.

I did call the fellow on hole 18 about it, but what am I going to do when everyone just poo poos it?(Yes, he was OB.) Go get the TD who has a policy of "No Rulebooks"!?! And yes, even rules dickheads like me actually want to play the round without major incident. Advice duly noted though, next time I will insist on the correct ruling and play which would be in that case adding 2 strokes to the scorecard for playing from the wrong lie. It is unfortunate that his lack of knowing and following the rules put all of us in that awkward position to have to call him on it. That we failed to follow through do to some conformist pressure to just let rules violations go is unfortunate on our parts. I will address that part of it.

In fact, that is what this whole thread is about.

How can you knowingly cheat and not try to correct it? If that question is conformist then again color me pink. I mean what do you say to yourself to make it alright in your own mind. That I can not understand.

I appreciate you sharing your thoughts. May I ask if in fact you were "not following the rules" at that time?



Yeah, I stepped past my lie on my fourth putt. I was frustrated and really wanted to bang that putt. He called me on a foot foul from an adjacent hole. I wanted to throw something at him.


If you were, whether practice or competition, you really owe the guy a "thank you" for pointing it out to you so that you can practice or play within the rules of play.


No. I know the rules. I WAS PRACTICING!!!! He was being a busy-body no-it-all.


It is all about attitude. You seem to have one that makes you exempt from the rules, or that they should only apply to you if you think it is the right time or place;


You don't know me well enough to make that assumption. In a real round, even just bag tag, I play by every rule. But that's not the same thing as being a rulebook [I'm a potty-mouth!]. I'm not saying throw away the rulebook. I'm not endorsing sloppy play. It is possible to play by the rules, and enforce the rules for other players, without being a jerk.

I agree that it is possible. But in a culture where calling any rules is considered being a d!ck it is not easy.

Someone calling rules out of spite is something completely different.

And no I don't know you, all I can respond to is what you write, and misunderstandings have been known to happen now and again.

as long as the call is the correct call, why does it matter if the call was made in spite or in peace and love and harmony with all that is good?

Pat, I should have expected such an inane and godless answer from you.

nice, but that response does nothing to answer the question i posed.

Pat, I should have expected such an inane and godless answer from you.


What the he11 does god have to do with disc golf rules issues??????

thats easy.

Nick is God
Nick is all that there is too know about what Disc Golf Rules are and should be,

therefore

God has a lot to do with disc golf rules issues

QED

Pat, I should have expected such an inane and godless answer from you.


What the he11 does god have to do with disc golf rules issues??????



What the he11 is a "godless answer???" Wouldn't that be virtually any answer other than Pat stating "There is no God." or "I have no God." (which he obviously did not state)

as long as the call is the correct call, why does it matter if the call was made in spite or in peace and love and harmony with all that is good?



well, if someone starts out being a jerk, they are going to get a very different responce from me that if you say it with grace and a touch of style.

Some folks think that since they have memorized the rulebook that they are a superior person, and use your mistake as a chance to prove that they are better than you.

These people should be met with hostility for their arrogance.

not knowing the rules is forgivable. telling someone they just broke a rule is required. being a dick is not excusable.

i agree. but all of that is an issue between the players involved, not with the rules. whether its Ghandi or Ghengis Khan making the call, if the call is correct, it is correct. regardless of the reason for the call, if the call is correct, it is correct.

btw, hostility in exchange for arrogance doesnt seem to lead down a very pleasant path, does it?

I always found nonchalance to be a much more aggravating response to the arrogant person.

whatever :D

whatever :D



Said like a true East Coaster. ;)

What the he11 does god have to do with disc golf rules issues??????






because believing in God makes about as much rational sense as Someone always losing becuse knowbody plays by the rules.

Rational people tend to deal in terms of cause, as opposed to those who are obsessed with BLAME :o

What the he11 does god have to do with disc golf rules issues??????






because believing in God makes about as much rational sense as Someone always losing becuse knowbody plays by the rules.

Rational people tend to deal in terms of cause, as opposed to those who are obsessed with BLAME :o



"Que ", No Comprende "......................yea , right.

For some , it allows them to get away with murder , so to speak. Cheaters..................will be eliminated. :mad:

What the he11 does god have to do with disc golf rules issues??????






because believing in God makes about as much rational sense as Someone always losing becuse knowbody plays by the rules.

Rational people tend to deal in terms of cause, as opposed to those who are obsessed with BLAME :o



All very interesting, but does not provide your opinion on what causes folks to be proud of their lack of rules knowledge. I don't know how many tournaments you've played in but most are won or lost by only one throw out of an average of 108 per event. Loose rules knowledge, adherence and calling is not a small matter. Well, to people that say, "whatever" I suppose it is...

so why do you advocate only calling the rules is the caller is in the proper (deemed by you) mood?

I was replying to gnduke leave me the h out of it thank you :mad:

I was replying to gnduke leave me the h out of it thank you :mad:



Mark, by all means, consider yourself "out of it". ;)

And I thought it was a timely and humorous post.

Not being the arrogant type, I chuckled instead of being upset by it.

BTW, I gave you full credit for being purposefully nonchalant in response to my post, some people might not have gotten that.

whatever :D



Said like a true East Coaster. ;)



...whu-tevah... :cool:

All very interesting, but does not provide your opinion on what causes folks to be proud of their lack of rules knowledge. I don't know how many tournaments you've played in but most are won or lost by only one throw out of an average of 108 per event. Loose rules knowledge, adherence and calling is not a small matter. Well, to people that say, "whatever" I suppose it is...



Are you suggesting that this is a problem in the upper ranks of divisional play? If you are - I think you are sorely mistaken. You need to worry less about how other people play, concentrate more on your own enjoyment of the game, make calls when APPROPRIATE (tact, common sense, fair play, and ettiquette should be your guide in applying the rule book), and you will derive significantly more satisfaction from disc golf.
Creating a thread as you have with the title you chose is little more than a form of beratement and derision of others who take the game less seriously than yourself. If you wish to foster a deeper and more widespread appreciation of the rules during competition, do so through example. Choosing a tack, one with some tact, would serve you well. It's no wonder you get responses like "whatever" - shaming people into your way of thinking is seldom effective, and more often causes adverse reactions. But I guess if you actually read the way people respond to you on this and many other threads, you might have figured that out by now.

Do you dispute that there is a prevalent culture of lax rules knowledge leading to lax rules adherence and that not only is rules calling scary, because folks are unsure if they really know the rules, but that there is this strong tilt towards thinking that only d!cks actually call rules? Moreover, that calling rules has to come from some motivation other than sportsmanship?

Yes, I absolutely believe this is a significant problem at every level I have observed. Yes, I know not knowing, following or calling the rules can be a competitive advantage. And I bet if I followed the lead group at even an NT event that I would see and call enough penalty violations on the players that it would effect the outcome most of the time, particularly in 2 day 4 round events.

Leading by example is well and good, but it does not address our cultural bias against knowing, following and certainly calling the rules. For that a more large-scale effort is necessary and a fairly substantial shift in attitude.

Do you dispute that there is a prevalent culture of lax rules knowledge



I see now, more than ever before - people talking about rules and their correct interpretations, before, during, and away from tournament play. I also see more people actually carrying and asking for rule books. So yes I dispute that assertion.


leading to lax rules adherence and that not only is rules calling scary, because folks are unsure if they really know the rules, but that there is this strong tilt towards thinking that only d!cks actually call rules? Moreover, that calling rules has to come from some motivation other than sportsmanship?


Rules calling is only scary if you lack the ability to address the situation politely and tactfully. I would agree that not enough people possess these abilities, which does lead to unfortunate situations. This IMO is perhaps a reflection of a lack of sportsmanship - the very thing people like you and I (having been playing for 20 yrs) should take pride in passing along to newer players.



Yes, I absolutely believe this is a significant problem at every level I have observed. Yes, I know not knowing, following or calling the rules can be a competitive advantage. And I bet if I followed the lead group at even an NT event that I would see and call enough penalty violations on the players that it would effect the outcome most of the time, particularly in 2 day 4 round events.


Being that you are not following or playing in these groups, how can you make such an assertion? If what you say is true, are these players all breaking the rules to the same degree? Or are there some taking advantage of others more frequently? If all are guilty, has anyone gained an advantage?


Leading by example is well and good, but it does not address our cultural bias against knowing, following and certainly calling the rules. For that a more large-scale effort is necessary and a fairly substantial shift in attitude.



Oh it very much does Nick. This very thread is an example. You will not lead anyone through derision- I hope that is simple and plain.

I'm with Craig. I don't play in any PDGA tournaments but at all the non-sanctioned stuff that I play in the level of adherence to the rules is way way better than it was 3-4 years ago. Especially the foot work and the marking of discs. It seemed so common that players could just put their feet in the general vicinity of their lie and now it's rare to see.

Overall awareness of the rules is much higher.

I'm actually surprised this thread has seen this much action. For the most part I disagree with the premise of the title of this thread.

I don't know of anyone that is "proud" of not knowing the rules. Those that are unaware of the basic rules rarely play sanctioned events. The few players that I've encountered not knowing the rules were primarily casual golfers who chose to play a tourney mainly because it was held on their home course. The local who plays only on their home course is not what I consider a tournament player.

I believe most (probably over 90%) tournament players have a good understanding of the basic rules of play. In my experience there have been very few ruling disputes. I also believe tournament players as a group make a conscious effort to follow the rules.

The only area of the rules that I see that needs improvement is watching each other's foot placement. It's not a lack of knowledge or willingness to enforce, it just that for the sake of speed of play they are headed towards their own lie and not in a position to see an accidental fairway footfault.

I would have to agree with Craig's sentiments that rules awareness has actually improved significantly over the past 10 yrs or so. The lack of rules knowledged appears to be overstated in this thread and exaggerated in it's title.

How often have you heard of seen any of these things at PDGA events?

The rocking mini or disc on putts.
"All 3s, right?"
"You got a 4 right?"
Players advancing beyond the away player.
"I'm going to putt out."
Everyone in the group in position to watch for adherence to the rules.
Players going out of turn.
Players of different divisions playing together in the first round.
"[I'm a potty-mouth!]!"
"F**K!"
Rude behavior towards other players in their group or the event.

Now, how many times do you see anyone calling any of these (or any) rules violations?

Finally, when and if anyone does call a violation, even with perfect sportsmenship, how often have you seen the person called accept the call with perfect sportsmenship?

This message board offers plentiful examples. Many people have offered threats of retribution for being called for rules violations and one or two has repeatedly threatened physical violance.

No, I'm afraid a fairly substantial ignorance of the rules, lack of adherence and fear of calling the rules very much is a problem. And it is not a challenge that one or two lone players setting an example will solve. It needs large scale attention and a plan to change this culture of abuse, large or small that you may consider it.

I do agree with Craig that the trouble does stem from a basic lack of proper sportsmenship. I wonder if the next article Carlton writes in DGWN could tackle this slippery topic.

Here's a rules infraction that cost over $50,000. Kind of puts things in perspective:

Today, the 16-year-old Wie no sooner had signed for a 74 to finish fourth - $53,126 - that LPGA Tour officials took her out to the seventh hole to discuss a drop she took the day before.

Nearly two hours later, she was disqualified for signing an incorrect scorecard. Because Wie dropped the ball closer to the hole - by 3 inches according to her, by about a foot according to the rules officials - she should have added two strokes to her third-round 71.

"I learned a great lesson," Wie said, her voice choking with emotion. "From now on, I'll call a rules official no matter where it is, whether its 3 inches or 100 yards. I respect that."

Whoops! :o

I guess it's a good thing she just signed multi-million dollar contracts.

Nick,

I've seen or heard every one of your listed scenarios at one time or another.

The most prevalent would be players not in a position to watch for foot faults or other violations. (Nearly every round I could point of several instances).

Profanity would rank as a distant second and third (maybe second) would be the pot smoking during tournament play.

These issues definitely need to be improved. The other issues listed such as going out of turn and advancing in front of the away player are very rarely seen among seasoned tournament players (pros). I imagine these violations are more common in amateur divisions. I've witnessed more rude behavior and swearing in the am divisions as well.

I'm not trying to belittle your points but like I said earlier the tiltle of this thread I believe is based upon an erroneous premise. Sure there are things we as a group need to work on, however I am unfamiliar to unabashed ignorance of rules and blatant arrogance that this thread implies exists.

Creating a thread as you have with the title you chose is little more than a form of beratement and derision of others who take the game less seriously than yourself. If you wish to foster a deeper and more widespread appreciation of the rules during competition, do so through example. Choosing a tack, one with some tact, would serve you well. It's no wonder you get responses like "whatever" - shaming people into your way of thinking is seldom effective, and more often causes adverse reactions. But I guess if you actually read the way people respond to you on this and many other threads, you might have figured that out by now.





Oh it very much does Nick. This very thread is an example. You will not lead anyone through derision- I hope that is simple and plain.



Craig,

I couldn't agree more with your sentiments. But unfortunately, it's wasted breath that all goes for naught. Nick refuses to accept responsibility for his attitude and behavior and how it affects others. He refuses to acknowledge how these traits render him ineffective as leader. I have made both private and public pleas to him to abdicate his current positions. I truly believe that his involvement in the sport, especially in leadership positions, is crippling its growth. No one wants to be involved with anything that requires interaction with Nick. What a shame that is.

The point is that there is a culture of "lite" treatment of knowledge and certainly calling of our rules of play during PDGA rounds and that this leads to lack of adherence. I'll leave it up to each person to decide the degree to which this happens, but that it happens is in my opinion undeniable.

What I am asking for is a concerted broad effort to change this culture to one of pride in knowing, following and calling the rules; where the highest possible standards of sportsmenship are universally called for and expected thoughout organized disc golf, whether PDGA or not.

Yes, we can all lead by example, but having an organized effort on the part of National, Regional and Local level organizers to promote rules knowledge, adherence and enforcement would undeniably move things along more quickly.

As a basic barometer of the state of things I challenge each and everyone of you here to read your rulebook, keep it in your bag, and call the next violation you see out at a PDGA event. No matter what it is, call it, and see what unfolds.

Question: How many times did you see rules violations at PDGAs in 2005?

Question 2: How many times did you call the person on those violations at PDGAs in 2005?