Why did innova stop making CE plastic? the best molds and best plastic of all time!! I'm sure this has been beat to death in other threads but I couldn't find any good info....
Thanks
Mike Wilmes

It was also the most expensive plastic of all time. They crunched the numbers and decided the molds of the champion discs were just as good and was cheaper so they went with those, which i still believe it has some champion plastic in it.

They also ran out of their Supply of the original CE plastic.

THe CE was also the "stiffest" Plastic that the PDGA allowed and they might have even changed their standards since.

and as Tokyo said it was also more expensive.

And for other information that is given out about the Special Blend plastic.. IT won't compare to the original CE.. The feel might be similar, but The Special Blend will probably end up being more grippy, but Softer as the CE rocs are.

-Scott Lewis

Innova should make a run of the wraith in CE plastic....wow that would by far be the best disc ever created....they would make a fortune selling them....though if it costs alot to make them than maybe not but I bet you could sell them for a ton.

I think it was a supply problem and not a cost problem.

I thought that the original formula for CE plastic was lost? :confused: Is this the first documented Disc Golf Myth...I want credit! :D

Innova was informed by the PDGA that the CE plastic was borderline too rigid (a safety concern) so Innova responded accordingly. makes me wonder how well Z plastic fits the guidelines, but i don't like plastic that stiff anyway.

i still carry a CE Valk in my bag, but i think a lot of the CE hype is more mystique than anything else. The Champion plastic today is probably just as good -- it is just hard to convince people of that when the mystique of the discontinued "CE" stamp steals their hearts :D

I agree with you for the most part... But some of those early runs of the opaque stuff were as durable as the new stuff, but grippier. I carry a CE FL and Leopard, and I used to carry an Eagle. I dont know that the FL is any different from the new CFR ones, but I like the collectability of it. Its a cool thing to have, even if it cost too much. I dont ever really need a firebird over water or anything anyways, so I imagine I will have it for quite a while.

I'm pretty sure the unacceptably high reject rate from working with the pure CE had the most to do with it.

I thought that the original formula for CE plastic was lost? :confused: Is this the first documented Disc Golf Myth...I want credit! :D

Years too late for we "locals'" ears. :o;) EHHHHHHHHH!! :D

The problem lies in psyche if the disc thrower. It is easier to forget the bad and the medicore shots than the spectacular. Therefore extinct plastic is always better. :eek:

SE Valks were the only disc I could really roll... :o:D

Trust me if innova wanted to make the CE plastic they could.

Trust me if innova wanted to make the CE plastic they could.


I don't think its a conspiracy ("piracy" is the base of this word, I never noticed that), the plastic company just ran out of the stuff. is it dupont?

Innova does not make plastic, they make discs.
You are right, from what I remember the company's supply of that plastic dried up. I don't think there's a conspiracy, but...
Why would a disc company want to make something that lasts so long? There's no percentage in the profit margins. After all, first and foremost a company exists to make money, not to make us happy.

first and foremost a company exists to make money, not to make us happy.



how well a company can do both is the real test of capitalism...

They'd make money if they re-released CE discs. There are like 100,000 more players than there were in 2001 when those coveted 1st ce rocs and 1st ce valks, tbirds,firebirds, etc. came out. Let's give a hypothetical situation. If they made let's say CE rocs in the original CE plastic in 2006, I'd probably buy 10 of 'em. Say them make them $30 a piece. that's $300. Let's say 20,000 ppl buy 5 2006 CE Rocs a piece, that's $3 million. Let's say it costs $15 to produce the disc from start to finish ($10 a piece for plastic, $5 to run em). That's a $1.5 million profit. What company wouldn't do that for ONE DISC.

BTW INNOVA, you can just PM with your job offer for the sales & marketing department. ;)

Let's say it costs $15 to produce the disc from start to finish ($10 a piece for plastic, $5 to run em



That's an extremely high guesstimate. We are dealing with injection molding. It's sooooooooooooooo cheap. What costs the companies money is the top and bottom metal pieces of the mold.

That's an extremely high guesstimate. We are dealing with injection molding. It's sooooooooooooooo cheap. What costs the companies money is the top and bottom metal pieces of the mold.



I know it was an extremely high estimate, that was the point. Innova would still make a butt-load of money and give players an awesome disc. I assume they still have the molds too. So they would make even more money.

Let's say it costs $15 to produce the disc from start to finish ($10 a piece for plastic, $5 to run em



That's an extremely high guesstimate. We are dealing with injection molding. It's sooooooooooooooo cheap. What costs the companies money is the top and bottom metal pieces of the mold.


Reject rate factors heavily into that equation.

cant they be melted back down and used again?

if they started making CE plastic again (which is impossible) it wouldnt be worth nearly what it is now. they are always coming out with something new and better anyhow.
nothing lasts forever....

if they started making CE plastic again (which is impossible) it wouldnt be worth nearly what it is now. they are always coming out with something new and better anyhow.
nothing lasts forever....


my desire for an 01 CE Roc will!

cant they be melted back down and used again?


Something to do with the dirtiness that gets on the disc and the sunlight breaking down the used plastic.

Injection molding is a finicky process. I would imagine there is a lot of capital tied up in the manufacture of the molds. Making a mold for a disc is FAR from cheap. I am sure they are impressively expensive. Even a small milled polished steel bracket can cost several hundred dollars to produce. I cant imagine what it would cost to mill out the profile of a disc, since you wouldnt do it with any conventional milling tools. Also, I am sure there is an incredibly high reject rate with pieces that big. Just yesterday I was working in a molding shop, and it took a couple hours and nearly 50 wasted pieces just to get the system specs (injection rate/time, material cushion, barrel pressure, etc.) just right, and even then it is tough to get the system to stabilize. You cant just melt down discs and re-mold them. Plastic starts off in a virgin form, probably small pellets that are nearly pure in composition. Once they are melted and they re-crystallize, they have to undergo a lof of processing to become usable again. It is prohibitively expensive to recycle molded product. If CE was a tricky material I am sure they threw a good deal of their product out the window right away. Some polymers are just tough to process.

i have heard that the molds cost $20,000 - $50,000. I'm not sure how close this is to the actual cost, but it's expensive nonetheless.

i have heard that the molds cost $20,000 - $50,000. I'm not sure how close this is to the actual cost, but it's expensive nonetheless.



But dont they already have the mold? I would think that the mold is the same regardless of the plastic. I always assumed that that a DX, pro, or champ was all made from the same mold, only with different plastic.

i have heard that the molds cost $20,000 - $50,000. I'm not sure how close this is to the actual cost, but it's expensive nonetheless.



More like $1,000. The cost of CE was probably 3.50 per pound and they should have no problem with grinding up rejects to melt back into the molds.

They'd make money if they re-released CE discs. There are like 100,000 more players than there were in 2001 when those coveted 1st ce rocs and 1st ce valks, tbirds,firebirds, etc. came out. Let's give a hypothetical situation. If they made let's say CE rocs in the original CE plastic in 2006, I'd probably buy 10 of 'em. Say them make them $30 a piece. that's $300. Let's say 20,000 ppl buy 5 2006 CE Rocs a piece, that's $3 million. Let's say it costs $15 to produce the disc from start to finish ($10 a piece for plastic, $5 to run em). That's a $1.5 million profit. What company wouldn't do that for ONE DISC.

This is a sterling example of the kind of idiocy that occurs when people start throwing numbers around without thinking.

CE discs currently command a price premium because there is a finite and ever-shrinking number of CE discs available. Likewise, CE/CFR Rocs command a premium because there is an extremely limited supply available in any given year. In both cases, the discs command price premium due to the extremely limited supply as compared to the demand. Were supply ever to approach demand, the price premium would collapse.

While there may well be as many as 2000-3000 people who would be willing to pay $30 a piece for a CFR Roc if only 5000 are available, it is unlikely that there are 5000 who would be willing to pay that much if 20,000 are available, and it is unlikely in the extreme that there are currently as many as 10,000�much less 20,000�who would be willing to pay anything close to $30 a piece if 100,000 were available.

So you are saying you wouldn't pay $30 for a nearly indestructable disc? I would, it sure beats buying a new KC Pro Roc every couple of months cause that plastic beats in too fast.

If I had the chance, I'd pay $50 for a 2001 CE ROC. I know about 20 guys still throwing 2001 CE Rocs and they still have the flashing on them. No dents, nicks, hardly an scratches, they were only dirty. I've seen guys hit a tree 10 ft. with a power drive and you can't even tell on the disc. Try doing that with any other plastic and see what happens. $30 would be a bargain.

The new stright urethayne blazes and sabres that just came out. Guess what it is the same plastic or very very close to the old CE. I have a sabre and blaze that have noo nick or anything and I have had them for 6 months. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

wrong. I'm not sure about the price per pound because I'm not sure of the exact type of compositions that they use, nor the type of volume that Innova deals with. But it is probably higher than that. Your estimate of $1000 for a mold is ridiculous. It is probably closer to $15k. These arent simple molds with 90 degree angles that are cut by shoving a big block of aluminum into a mill and shearing off big chunks at a time. Even those have costs in the hundreds. Metal is cheap, labor and milling are VERY expensive. These molds are very detailed and probably require many reworkings to get them just right.

When I was at the gateway shop i beleive it was only $1000 but I'll make sure in like 10 min.

Like I asked before... Dont they have the mold already?

wrong. I'm not sure about the price per pound because I'm not sure of the exact type of compositions that they use, nor the type of volume that Innova deals with. But it is probably higher than that. Your estimate of $1000 for a mold is ridiculous. It is probably closer to $15k. These arent simple molds with 90 degree angles that are cut by shoving a big block of aluminum into a mill and shearing off big chunks at a time. Even those have costs in the hundreds. Metal is cheap, labor and milling are VERY expensive. These molds are very detailed and probably require many reworkings to get them just right.



It's cheaper than you think, it's call CNC Mills,

they are all done by computized Mills, each mold probably takes a few min's each to make. Not some guy turning it by hand.

granted it takes a few molds to make it perfectly the way you want it (prototyping) The real cost is time

Ok 15 to 20 grand but that is three pieces of the mold which can be used to make other discs in the future. Ex you cna make a beast with this mold and then use it and an orc mold bottom to make a new disc.

I understand CNC Milling, I am an engineer and have worked with them on many, many occasions. Each mold probably takes several hours to produce. You still have to set the machine up and program the machining operations before the milling can begin, also.

i have heard that the molds cost $20,000 - $50,000. I'm not sure how close this is to the actual cost, but it's expensive nonetheless.



More like $1,000. The cost of CE was probably 3.50 per pound and they should have no problem with grinding up rejects to melt back into the molds.

What are you basing your estimate of $1000 on?

The numbers cited elsewhere on the board range between $15,000 (http://www.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?Board=Equipment&Number=115113&Searchpage=1&Main=114954&Search=true&#Post115113) (based on an actual quote for a mold) and "upwards of $30,000 per mold." (http://www.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?Board=Equipment&Number=333458&Searchpage=0&Main=333193&Search=true&#Post333458) These numbers are in line with costs cited in The Effect of Tooling Cost on Part Price (http://engr.bd.psu.edu/pkoch/plasticdesign/price.htm), which puts the cost of tooling a "one cavity mold for a fairly simple part" at between $20,000 and $30,000, and Cutting Costs in Short Run Injection Molding (http://www.build-stuff.com/index.htm#Cutting%20Costs%20in%20Short%20Run%20Inj ection%20Molding), which cites a price of $20,000 for a typical commercial quality injection mold.

If I had the chance, I'd pay $50 for a 2001 CE ROC. I know about 20 guys still throwing 2001 CE Rocs and they still have the flashing on them. No dents, nicks, hardly an scratches, they were only dirty. I've seen guys hit a tree 10 ft. with a power drive and you can't even tell on the disc. Try doing that with any other plastic and see what happens. $30 would be a bargain.

Would you pay $50 for a 2001 if there were 300 listed on Ebay simultaneously and another 1000 available on the open market at the same time?

I fixed it man sorry maybe that's wwhat the guy charged for labor.

As one that does product development, and is quite familiar with manufacturing plastic molds, $15K would be extremely cheap for a mold that size. This would also be a two-piece mold, so double that price. I think about $40K would be a conservative estimate for a (USA made) golf disc mold. So $50K is definitely a good estimate of cost for a golf disc mold.

Regarding why CE was discontinued, I've heard that it was because of the large reject rate. But I could easily believe that it was because the plastic wasn't available anymore. That happened to me once on a project. The volume used by the disc golf industry alone would probably not justify the plastic manufacturer to continue to make it, unless there were other (larger volume) customers for that plastic-type.

-E

I just got it from the source and he said it is about 15,000-20,000 for the molds.

If I had the chance, I'd pay $50 for a 2001 CE ROC. I know about 20 guys still throwing 2001 CE Rocs and they still have the flashing on them. No dents, nicks, hardly an scratches, they were only dirty. I've seen guys hit a tree 10 ft. with a power drive and you can't even tell on the disc. Try doing that with any other plastic and see what happens. $30 would be a bargain.

Would you pay $50 for a 2001 if there were 300 listed on Ebay simultaneously and another 1000 available on the open market at the same time?


I would pay $50 for ANY DISC, that I could put through hell for 4 years and have it fly the exact same way as the day I bought it. That's what I'm saying. I'm not talking about how many were made, or what they go for on ebay. I don't collect discs, I throw discs. And I would pay $50 for one that flew the same way every time for 4+ years. I have CFR discs and champion discs, but they flex and nick and warp. I have a CE eagle, that I have hit EVERYTHING on god's green earth with and it still looks perfect. Its just dirty. I even hit a tree on my drive that was 10 ft in front of me and I couldn't even tell where it hit on the disc, but the tree had a gash in it. But there is no warping, no nicks, no deep scratch, nothing.

I even hit a tree on my drive that was 10 ft in front of me and I couldn't even tell where it hit on the disc, but the tree had a gash in it. But there is no warping, no nicks, no deep scratch, nothing.



This seems to support the PDGA warned the CE discs were too stiff or whatever theory.

I've hit many trees from 10 feet on a full throw with a regular champ innova & can't tell where they hit.
I do have a CE Leopard & the plastic feels just like that of my Sidewinder/Champ Eagle/etc.
I don't see what the big deal is... regular champion plastic seems just as durable. (and less money)

Your leopard is probably a later run which resemble champion plastic.The 1st and 2nd runs were the really nice plastic.Grippy and tough. Its not so much that CE was more chip/gouge resistent than champion because champion is pretty rugged in this department as well. Its the fact of how well CE wore in over the champion plastic.CE breaks in to a certain point and stays that way for literally years where as Champion kind of keeps breaking in until its not really the same disc at all anymore.Still a functional disc for certain shots but probably not the same shots you would have used it for when it was new.
Its true though,there really is nothing wrong with champion plastic, It still lasts a long time

I like how flat the top is on my ce valks, i have never seen a valk since with a perfectly flat top like the ce's. are they different molds? I think they must have to be....but if they are different molds why don't they use the old molds in regular champion plastic? or if they are the same molds why do they look radically different?
Wilmes

From what i gather, the flat-tops were the second runs. The dominess variations between runs or between particular discs in a run are due to differences in the plastic used and/or to how the plastic cools not the use of a different mold... different plastics can result in (slightly) larger or smaller discs and also to dominess variations. Also pigments from the different colors lead to different cooling tendencies and also can affect things like glide, stability, etc. Finally -- even humidity and temperature at the time of production can have an effect...