OK, I'm really trying to improve. I spent the last few months throwing nothing but mid's (buzz and champ cobra) and have gotten much better (accuracy and holding a straight line until the end of its flight). Now I'm moving up to drivers...I can throw my 10x KC Pro T-bird about 330 ft. straight...(not every time...but enough to know that its possible). Why can't I do this with a Champion T-bird, or Eagle,or Valk (they all hyzer out and skip hard). My assumption is that I'm not getting enough snap/spin on the disc. For the love of Pete...i just want to throw straight.

A few other details: I can throw my champ. Tbirds the same 330 ft. easily if i just throw the Hyzer....this doesn't make sense to me. A straight line should go the furthest, right? Flex shots never work for me...i start them off anny'ed, they climb, then they just flex back to the hyzer and die (at about 330 ft of course). I have pushed 400 even 425 a few times with orcs, beasts and valks...but im not sure how I did it, and there was no accuracy.

Now after all that BS...two questions.
1. What is a good distance to be able to throw a straight shot? Will a champ tbird even finish straight like my good ole KC pro tbird will?
2. Why is it that when i Hyzer my champ tbird/beast/valk/orc that i easily get the same D i get when throwing straight?

Your going down the wrong path, 50 feet is a good distance to throw staight. That is, you're pushing the distance thing too hard.

Have you read and re-read Blake and Dunipace's stuff?

From your description it sounds like you are very early in the process. It took me a year of constant work to get my throws down and another year to really get them good.

Go read, then practice what you read, then read again and figure out what you weren't doing right the first time.

I will give you one short cut that I don't see Dave and Blake write about. This came from Stokely. Draw a line that goes from the pin just past your left upper arm (RHBH throw). This is the line you are throwing down. When you reach back, your chest turns so that it is parallel to this line, and your disc is on it. The line should not be more than a few inches away from your chest. Just far enough away so that if you pull your disc along that line it will clear your chest. Pull your disc keeping it along that line. You are relaxed and easy, and as the disc follows that line your elbow will have to bend and your upper torso will turn towards the basket. Remember, this is quick but you are not tight yet, this is a pre-load to the throw. Once your elbow is fully bent (Dave goes with something around 90 degrees), you tighten your grip and straighten your elbow (or unwind). This happens as late as you can make it and with as much speed as you can get. Keep that line you are moving the disc down in mind. you want the hit, the point of release to occur on that line with the disc traveling down it.

Remember, this is about patience and practice. Also, go get some video. There is plenty around. This will show you how close good players are keeping the disc to their body and how fast that last whip is. Good luck.

I'll start with the second question. I'm going to make a guess, but it probably has to do with nose angle. Hyzer shots require the front edge of the disc to be slightly above level to get the "nose" of the disc to be down, so it makes sense that your hyzer shots would be good. Midrange discs aren't as nose angle sensitive so it also makes sense that they're flying alright. Try concentrating on getting the nose down on your drivers and worry less about trying to get the snap and speed you think you're lacking.

I've found the Champion Teebirds to be pretty overstable, so you may not get them to ever finish like your 10x does.

I will re-read. I keep telling myself not to worry about distance...but thses "discrepancies"(like the disc goes further when hyzered) throw me off track. Thanks.

Two things, the newer plastics don't really require hyzer or anhyzer to get real distance. throw it flat with good snap and you will get a good flight. The T-bird should give you this but if not go to a Valk. Remember that the reason Valks and Sidewinders turn over is because people get the disc to far away from their body on their pull through. Keeping the disc in tight means that you have less plain old power and more torque. Torque = distance. There is a reason the Valk holds the distance record.

Also, nose down means flat. Many players are throwing for the sun and that gets their discs way too high. The line you choose should be angled up but I choose a line that keeps my disc no higher than 30 feet or so at 350 feet (this means that the disc probably won't get higher than 15 to 20 feet at it's apex). Sometimes I read the sentance "keep the nose down" and it reads like you should keep the nose pointed down at the ground.

My 10x tbirds land straight and flat...no skipping. What would the next disc in line be that will do that with a little more torque and go a little further? Valk? Keeping in mind that I would keep the disc in closer to the body and on a better line.

I have found that almost anytime i try to start an overstable disc annyed it just stalls...I assume Im getting the nose up too high on those as well?

Have you tried Pro TLs or Pro TBirds? How about CFR TLs?

I haven't used a T-bird in years so it is hard to compare. I use the Beast and the Orc. The Valk is a sweet disc that gets under-utilized because of two things: Its definitly not an into the wind disc, and it gets over-thrown. If thrown correctly it will stay straight and long. However, it the T-bird is straight for you then stick with it and work on your technique. One of the worst things you can do is go from disc to disc looking for one that solves your problems. Make the disc work for you. You'll understand this a whole lot more once you get your technique down.

One of my favorite things to tell players is how I do in tournaments. I'm 45, and average over 360 (when throwing for distance) and frequently hit up in the 390 range. I lose to guys who average 310 to 320 all the time. They all have sweet up shots and hit 75% from 25 to 30 feet. This game is about accuracy and touch, not distance. If your short game is automatic, even with a bad drive you will be competitive.

1. What is a good distance to be able to throw a straight shot? Will a champ tbird even finish straight like my good ole KC pro tbird will?



ideally, you can throw a straight shot any distance depending upon what discs you use. if you break your champ teebird in for say, 18 months, it may start to finish like the 10x's. it is the nature of the plastic that makes em fly that different.



2. Why is it that when i Hyzer my champ tbird/beast/valk/orc that i easily get the same D i get when throwing straight?



first guess, nose angle. second guess, height. it's easier to keep air under a disc that is thrown with an angle vs. throwing flat. imo it's also easier to throw high/nose down with a hyzer/anhyzer.


I have found that almost anytime i try to start an overstable disc annyed it just stalls...I assume Im getting the nose up too high on those as well?



correct. or not pulling through with enough power to hold the turn through the apex.


A straight line should go the furthest, right?



flex shots will travel farther due to glide, but the distance drop off shouldn't be huge with most discs (think 1-5%). there's only a handful of discs that really seem to NEED to be turned in order to grab that extra D.

I have thrown the Pro Line TL's they are a little understable. The new Pro Line Tbirds seem to be pretty nice and have a straight finish too..I have one CFR Tbird and it actually flies pretty nice...I just got it recently and i think i just need to learn it a little better.

Ocean, be patient... That's all I can say. I'm no monster thrower, but I've been through your learning curve, and am recently (as of this spring) just broken out of it... I had a mental issue with my technique to where I was nose up all the time. That, and I wasn't getting enough of a rip @ the end of my release... Since then, I've come to envision the exact line I throw on, and exactly how far my disc will fly flat... You've got to see the disc breaking well into 300' before it slows & sits down, etc... Otherwise, you'll always be nose up and carry up, over, & die... I don't know if that made sense, but just think of this: Your steps, push-off, arm pull tight, and the whip @ the end all have to be well timed - and only time will get you there. I ended up taking all my discs out to a park or football practice field and just cranking all my drivers (ch. eagle, ch. TB, Pro TB, DX Beast, & Pro Starfire)... I can throw any of them 300+ on any throw, and the Beast I throw 320-350+... Just keep working ont it. It's not going to come to you until you have so many throws under your belt, it's just a learning progression in my opinion.

I went out at lunch today and threw my mids along with one champ tbird. I focused on keeping the tbird close to my body throughout the pull and thinking whip and tourque (there is no doubt i was able to take off some of the power and get the same distance with this better execution). On my best throws i kept the disc between 4 and 10 ft off the ground and very level (no hyzer or anny). I felt the distance was good (about 320) and the line was straight up until the very end of the flight. But, as that disc reached the end of its flight it had huge skip to the left...probably a solid 40 ft. How do I minimize this sort of skip?

How do I minimize this sort of skip?


throw a disc that is a less overstable finisher.

if you are looking for something that will emulate a 10X teebird, the closest i have found is a dx teebird about 4g heavier than the 10x's weight.

I am a big Champion Teebird thrower.. I Only throw the 11x Original Candy Teebirds.... They seem to fly differently than the newer stamped Champions ones, but anwyway....

The Champion Teebird will probably not be a straight flyer for you... or at least not at the end of it's flight. They are meant to fly pretty stable-overstable because of their 0 High Speed turn rating, but their 3 rated low speed fade means it will dive off at the end of it's flight. YOu would defiantely need to beat the disc in a lot to get it to fly dead straight the whole way. I've had one 11x teebird that i've been throwing for almost 2 years now and it is just starting to get a little turn when thrown flat. The best way to get them to have little fade at the end would be to throw them low so that they don't have as much of a chance to fade out in the air.

The champ will definately not fly like the 10x teebird becuase it's made from a different plastic and usually people use the 10x teebirds for rollers..
Best bet would be to try and find a CE(or CFR) Teebird TL or a DX teebird.

as for other molds you could try a slower speed disc like a Champion Leapord or a Pro Leapord.. THey dont' have as much low speed fade and are very good for Controlled distance.

-Scott Lewis

P.s. You might not be getting the nose down enough on your Flex/Helix shots and that might be why you are getting an early stall. If you try getting the nose down and gettign a good lean forward you might be able to solve that problem. If you do that and you start digging the disc in the ground it's because you originaly were putting too much angle on the disc, but didn't know it because you had the nose up so high... Just remember to try and get the nose down on that type of shot.

The champ will definately not fly like the 10x teebird becuase it's made from a different plastic and usually people use the 10x teebirds for rollers..



heh, back when the 9X's first came out everyone was like "omg these are stable and fly a mile." :P

Oceanjones,

Frustration is.....Not playing for a week, going to a tournament on courses you never seen before. Driving fairly well, and essentially being 3 strokes per round away from a really good tournament because your missing putts inside 20ft. I still ended up cashing thanks to the really deep flat payout, but I was still extremely frustrated. To say the least, if it was a CTP tournament, I would have kicked everyones hind end, because I was always the last person to make my second shot in any group I was in. GRRRRRR!

That is frustration.

Good luck with your problems, but a beat up 10x Teebird will always fly straighter then a brand new champion Teebird. Like mentioned above, throw a Champion Leopard, they finish nice and straight.

A bit off topic, but hey this is my thread. I really appreciate you guys giving me this info and I'm already trying and working on a lot of it.

Grip: I use a modified fan grip. the index finger under the rim and the last three piled up. My thumb is just forward of my index finger (learned this from Barry at a clinic). When the rip comes, all of it is on my index finger. In fact i have a great big callous there where i "pinch through" the plastic to my thumb. Should I be ripping more from all fingers? There is no doubt that i have more gripping power in the last three since they are pulling together. And I can say that easily 50% of my "bad" shots come from an early release which hyzers out well short of my goal.

Ok, I posted too soon. I just reread your site and I see that im using a Fork Grip and the rip point is the index finger. I have found everyonce in while though that i tend to feel more of the rip in the last three fingers...in these instances i seem to get more snap/spin. Is this a good thing? Something I should feel all the time?

Try a Z Storm, or Millenium Orion ... much straighter finishing discs IMO. If you are looking for a straight finish, it's hard to beat a Z Storm.