Here are three videos of me driving.

The disc is a Tee-Bird. I'm shooting for a flat release on all of the drives.

I'd love to have some feedback on my mechanics.

The videos are relatively short AVI's (about 1MB each).

Look a couple posts below for the video links.


Thanks

-D

Stupid Geocities!!!!


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http://www.geocities.com/drokit/Drive02.avi

Yeah I was afraid of that.

They have severe bandwidth restrictions. Anyone know of a good place to host videos for awhile?

Hope y'all can get a look at 'em later.

-D

Well, I put the videos on another free host, but you have to view them via their site instead of just downloading them.

Also, if that doesn't work out for you and you are feeling especially nice drop me an email at : drokit@yahoo.com and I'll e-mail you one or all of the videos for your expert critique.



http://www.zippyvideos.com/38978023939015.html

http://www.zippyvideos.com/148288463939065.html

http://www.zippyvideos.com/30654490939085.html

-D

I can't help ya as I'm a beginner, but what kind of distance do you get ?

Edit: And it looks like you're getting a nice flat release if that's your goal.

I don't think you are reaching back far enough. And your approach is too square to the box. I think if you started your approach from the right back corner of the box and then x stepped in, you would get more snap.

Dont' worry about your reachback.. Your reach back may or may not have ANYTHING to do with your overall throw. Different styles require less or more pullback and it doesn't necessarily make a difference since your speed is generated right before the "hit" and not how fast you can pull your arm from all the way behind your arse.

I'd say try to get more of your bodyweight ahead of your plant foot.. Try getting a lean forward more and that should help you get the disc from rising so quickly.
Also stop spinning.. THat looks like it can be very dangerous on may teepads.

Try to work on getting a good lean forward to get your body weight/momentum ahead of your plant foot.

-Scott Lewis

yeah, my only comment is the way you come off the end of the tee pad looks like you could easily kill yourself in less than idea conditions or if you were on any sort of hill. In th second video, it looks like you plant pretty hard into your front foot after the x-step, but the other 2 look fine in that aspect.

Most people I've seen who can out drive me(which is actually pretty much everyone) look like they pull a little lower across their chest, but it'd only be an inch or two difference, so it could just be that the camera is lower than my normal POV. I say, if you can get consistantly get that in between the trees, you're good to go.

There is one issue I would consider working on. Either on full speed or slo mo, the video clearly shows your arm swinging out away from your body as it travels back to its furthest point. This is a classic beginner error. If you watch any good pro, the reach back process is fairly tight to the chest both ways; ie on the reach back and then through the hit.

You do seem to be pulling through close to the chest which is good but it should go both ways. Doing this should increase accuracy as well as power and distance since you are minimizing disc movement and you are setting up your body to "whip through" in a more controlled and clean manner.

Additionally, I am pretty sure you are getting most of your follow through bounce and twist because you are using more arm than body in the throw. If you set your self up better for the "whip" by keeping the disc close in to your body on the way back, this should enable you to better get your hips in to play when you pull through. This in turn will translate the energy that seems to be lost with all your twisting at the end - more into the disc its self. You should in theory, then, lose a bit of that super follow through that you have.

Hey man, forget those guys, I think you have a good spin.lol. Turn your shoulders.
:D

Thanks for the input so far guys. Looks like some really good advice.

I often look like I'm totally out of control as I follow through, but I haven't been able to put my finger on what's causing it. It does seem like I'm carrying a lot of momentum off the end of the teepad. (those teepads were really short by the way)

A couple of other things I noticed:

I'm not really turning my upper body away from the target very much. My head and shoulders are maybe 120 degrees around, but definitely not 180. Do you think more turn would add a little more to the throw? For me its tough to maintain accuracy as I increase the time I'm looking away from the target.

Also I noticed my non-throwing arm is swinging a little wide during the reach back. Does that indicate anything? I'm usually very relaxed during the reach back and so my arm just swings with my body.

Oh, and to answer the distance question. I average about a 380' golf drive, and max out at just over 400' when throwing purely for distance. In message board distance this equals roughly 520'

-D

I would say you are spinning after you throw because most of your body rotation is coming after you already have all your weight on your plant foot. Your body rotation should coincide with your weight trasfer from your left to right foot. Otherwise you are just taking a run-up and then spinning as hard as you can.

I'm no expert, but I'd say your pullback could need some more length to it. I don't do an arching x-step into the box, like others mentioned, so I'm not sure if that's valid. But when I line up, I hold the disc out in front of me on my line. When I approach, I nearly x'step myself right parallel to that disc line, and pull the disc back straight back on it's line, keeping it close to my chest. the pent-up NRG stored in your reach back gets released in your pull through & snap, generating the power you need... As for spinning, It might not be necessary, but I understand your carry-forward - it's just a follow through. Just be careful of the landing area when you're up in the woods or something.. LOL

I would say work on keeping your reach back and pull threw tight and your left arm in tight as well. not sure why you are spinning at the end, if you keep your plant foot.. knee bent and pivot on your follow through you shouldn't spinn all the way like that, the follow through should just happen after your pull through, let it happen dont force the follow through

Jay

Do we need to watch the video before we criticize you? Or can I just make rude comments about the fact that you are vain enough to share video of yourself with strangers?

lol

I can't believe you're wearing white socks with those black shorts. Get a GQ subscription man!

its good that your following thru in front of the pad. that means you've got some forward momentum. but you're losing a lot of power from the rotation that results in the spin. scott lewis's advice is good on this point.

while the amount of pullback is different for different styles, you WILL add some D if you reach back a bit more. your reachback is fairly fast... slow it down a tad, relax while you are back there, and then power thru straight.

consider this - the amazing distances that result from a 360 come from the fact that the reachback actually starts about 270 degrees from the release line. you;re getting about 120-140 degrees in your vids. yes, aspects of the overall techique matter... but the reachback is important. even the pros with incredibly smooth, make-it-look-so-easy strokes will have their arms 180 degrees (exactly on the line of release) at some point in their motion.

good luck!

http://www.zippyvideos.com/101013963990205/100_0118/

OK, what am I doing wrong beside throwing a quarter K? :D

Heres another,

http://www.zippyvideos.com/49785359990305/100_0127/

Thanks for the link DallasDG. Nice free host. :cool:

Your second video shows your form much better than your first, imo.

I'm no expert, but I think there's something going on with your footwork. You're doing a X-step, but it seems like there too many steps in there and maybe a little hop. You could stand to reach back farther, twisting your body around to look directly behind you - you never look back fully. It also seems like your release is a little early and with very little follow through. You arm comes through, but you may get more distance if your entire body rotates all the way through and past so that your body is pointing to the right.

You're doing all the right things but just need to take it further, imo.

Grunion going for the Distance. Huge run up.

http://www.zippyvideos.com/105705262990375/100_0182/

I really like this idea. Nice one original poster! :cool:

Well I dont want to over throw the hole. I have alot of different throws and styles. I am like a chameleon. Believe it or not. I can do a regular x step, or run up or what have you. This style is a change up from Efrains style. Sorry Efi. I had to watch for awhile before I got this form down. It is good for a consistant controlled 350.

The run up is good for 400. I can go further if I put less footwork into it and arch my back for a little S shot. I really understand why Vinnie said that I was all over the place. I throw so many different ways. :D

You rotate your body around better in the third video. Again, I think you could use more initial rotation and reach back, imo.

I will work on that. Thanks for the input. I came up about 30' short on that hole. Maybe if I had some cleats on I could attempt that but I plant so hard that I am scared to put anymore into it without a nice set of nails under my shoes. :D

These are the same videos reposted for easy navigation. :D

http://www.zippyvideos.com/101013963990205/100_0118/

http://www.zippyvideos.com/49785359990305/100_0127/

http://www.zippyvideos.com/105705262990375/100_0182/

Ok. I figure if you guys are willing to subject yourself to public flogging, I will too. I am a newer player who maxes out at 275. I consistently throw about 240-250 which is a recent improvement. I am strong enough to throw farther and figure that there must be some glaring mechanical problem in my drive. Any ideas? Took these with a Treo while flinging a few at a local park.

http://www.zippyvideos.com/754176090996405/outtabounds_orc/
http://www.zippyvideos.com/968518358996535/outtabounds_storm/

I can't believe you're wearing white socks with those black shorts. Get a GQ subscription man!



I am sooooo embarrassed right now. Can somebody tell me what a GQ is.

Hey seriously though, I've tried out some of the advice I got here and had pretty good results. I pulled my reach back in closer to my body, but not really any farther back - in fact it may be shorter. Bringing my arm straight back with the disc in close to my chest causes me to actually rotate my body farther around to where I'm about 180 from the target at full reach back. I'm still working out the kinks, but this little tweak definitely feels better and has D increasing potential.

The best part is that my follow through looks pretty normal when I get the reach back part right, and I think in the long run my accuracy will increase as a result. I never would have made the connection between the reach back and out of control follow through without your guy's input. Thanks a lot.

-D

outtabounds, some things to work on:
- Slow your run up -way_down-. You are flailing around.
- Get up on your toes/ball of foot during the entire run up and throw
- Work on rotating your hips and shoulders around more during the reach back... it looks like you are 'arming' it and getting little to no power from your hips and torso. Be sure to pull the disc in a straight line (across the chest). This is something that I've been working on recently...

I am sooooo embarrassed right now. Can somebody tell me what a GQ is.




Gentlemen's Quarterly. It's a fashion magazine for men. It's mostly more formal type stuff in there like suits and whatnot. Lots of pictures of guys wearing turtlenecks and sportcoats.

Ok, so I need help on my drive and my use of sarcasm.

I heard that GQ is the code name for the new disc wing disc that's made of even softer plastic than the Quarter K . It stands for Gouges Quickly.

-D

No one else wants to belittle my throw? :eek:

No one else wants to belittle my throw? :eek:



It looks like you throw with a very 'limp wristed' style.


j/k

No one else wants to belittle my throw?



Hey Grunion. You playing hopscotch on the teepad or something? Where is the pebble and chalk? Jeez! Learn how to walk or run up like a normal person not a gimp! Either that or try jump roping because your drives look terrible!!

Note: You asked for it, so I figure I would have a little fun with it. I really do think you look like you are hopping more than smoothly approaching the end of the teepad. Kind of amused me. I probably look like a fairy princess when I drive, so go figure.

****,.....That was phauking hilarious. LOL!!! :D You got to admit it still looks smooth though. :D

Smooth is not the word that came to mind...However, the shirt on the head under a ball cap, that is smooth.

Cmon man, your killing me. It was freaking hot out that day. 100+. My hop scotch routine is off the hook. I can still do just a regular x-step (which I use for Anny's) and get around 420. Oh my.....I just remembered I put the side winder back in the bag so look out. I dont know if I still have the technique but I have hit the 500 mark a couple of times with that disc.


NO, I am not CB-Disc-Doogler :DJ/K CB....get that rating sys in your head boy!

Dallas, sorry it took me so long to get on this, but i have been super busy.

i haven't gone over it with a fine-toothed comb yet, but i see 3 things that stand out right now.

http://www.discgolfreview.com/temp/crossstep.jpg

you are robbing yourself of hip rotation and potential leg power by not turning your cross step foot enough. toes should be pointed somewhat away (180 degrees is too much imo, but 90 is too little) in order to force the hips to close. imo, this is something you should do.

as for these next two, they are sort of inter-related and kind of up to you. what i can say is that they will reduce anhyzer tendency, griplocks, and help you get more nose down on hyzers and flat shots. they will also reduce any off axis torque that may be present (you have some, but not too much).

http://www.discgolfreview.com/temp/reach.jpg

your reach sweeps in from over the top. this keeps the throwing shoulder higher than the off shoulder and primes your body in a way better suited for anhyzers.

http://www.discgolfreview.com/temp/finish.jpg

due to your reach/pull motion of your shoulders, you are forced to extend late and finish with your arm low. the natural tendency will be to pull throws and straight shots will need to be released slight anhyzer or to the right.

here are a couple of frames referring to what i'm talking about (aside from the ones in the beginner advice and wrist roll threads)

http://www.discgolfreview.com/temp/mrob-rip.jpg http://www.discgolfreview.com/temp/mrob-follow.jpg

while this is a hyzer flip in these frames, it is VERY nose down and the principles are similar during a flat shot, just with a little less angle (of the red line/plane). these types of throw will use a reach with the throwing shoulder slightly lower than the off shoulder and primed in a straight line or from under (vs. over the top).

hope this could help

Can you enlighten me on my mechanics Blake?

Blake,
Honestly it amazes me that there are people (whom I've never even met) willing to take the time and put the effort into helping me with my drive.

I see what you are saying about my cross step. It is about 90 degrees. That would explain the lack of rotation I was having. I never noticed that before because when I slow things down or do a practice run up I always turn my foot a lot more. At full speed I am really only trying to have light footwork, and I guess I just need to slow things down a bit and make sure I'm rotating enough to take advantage of my hips. I went through a period where the more I rotated the less accurate I was, and psychologically, I'm still recovering.

I think I understand what you are saying about my reach and pull through. Once again I wasn't really aware, until I saw it on video of how much of a sweeping reach back I had. I've really been working on correcting that with a straighter reach back. Are you saying that by lowering and straightening my reach a little it will put my shoulders closer to the same height (or even get my throwing shoulder a little lower)? And by extending late you mean that I should end up farther over my plant foot at the hit, right? It looks like I'm releasing the disc too soon - before I've reached my max power, and I'm taking all of that energy off the end of the pad.

Thanks to everyone who has helped me out so far and,
Thank you Blake for taking a look with your fine tuned eye. I'll dedicate my first 500 footer to you bud.

-D

Haven't I already done that for you Grunion? You flop around like a stupid little fish! Since you seem to want it, I have included pictures that prove my point.
http://www-csgc.ucsd.edu/STORIES/Resources/grunion-2.jpg

This is you in the first video. You are that one all by itself with its white belly showing. Put on your dang shirt!

http://david.shackelford.org/images/grunion.jpg

This picture represents the video where the kids are by the teepad. See how stupid you look!

http://www.mikebrock.com/images/images/collecting.jpg

This picture just shows how even a little girl can whoop you and show you a few things.

http://www.welcometocorvallis.com/gallery/images/hopscotch.jpg Hey look! Grunion is playing disc golf with one of the neighborhood kids! Hopscotch away!

I needed something to do for the last few minutes before lunchtime skins today. I hope you find my advice helpful. Oh, and in case you hadn't figured it out, those fish are grunion, people can't be grunion. :D

So thats what I am doing wrong. Thanks Jonsey boy! :D

Honestly it amazes me that there are people (whom I've never even met) willing to take the time and put the effort into helping me with my drive.



there were people who did it for me, i'm just cycling the karma :)


Are you saying that by lowering and straightening my reach a little it will put my shoulders closer to the same height (or even get my throwing shoulder a little lower)?



you kind of arc from over the top... this is the primer for an anhyzer/roller type of shot in terms of how your body is going to open. sweeping back during the reach isn't awful (unless it really throws your body off balance to do so) but it is less efficient.

my recommendation is that on flat and hyzer shots you do not come over the top and if you sweep at all, to come at it from under. a good example of this is dave feldberg. he kind of pendulums back to his reach back with his throwing shoulder slightly lower than the off shoulder.
http://www.discgolfreview.com/resources/images/dfeldberg2-2.jpg http://www.discgolfreview.com/resources/images/dfeldberg2-3.jpg


And by extending late you mean that I should end up farther over my plant foot at the hit, right?



it's more in reference to the extension of the elbow. the opening of your body (mainly due to your shoulder orientation at the reach) causes your elbow extension to happen late, and you are only able to get max power on grip locks or pulls to the right.


I went through a period where the more I rotated the less accurate I was, and psychologically, I'm still recovering.




i believe that there is a little misbelief about the nature of rotation. i haven't found an easy way to convey it yet though. basically, it's mainly the hips and the back of the throwing shoulder that are most important.

if you look at this pic, you will see the lower left portion of his back does not rotate completely. but... this is really based upon the nature of the shoulder rotation, in how they open/close.
http://www.discgolfreview.com/resources/images/dfeldberg3-3.jpg

Ok, I got what you're talking about with the reach. I'm incorporating a straighter reach back immediately. Doing this feels much smoother and more powerful. It has also lessened the amount of extreme follow through that I had before. I'm going to get some more video after I work on it for a while so I can see how my body opens up for the elbow extension to happen.


i believe that there is a little misbelief about the nature of rotation. i haven't found an easy way to convey it yet though. basically, it's mainly the hips and the back of the throwing shoulder that are most important.


I think I see what you are saying here: It's not like you're rotating robotically with everything rotating just at the base of the spine, but rather a dynamic twisting that involves the throwing shoulder more than the non-throwing side of the back. (if that makes sense at all)

Alright...off to the "driving range"

-D

Ok, I got what you're talking about with the reach. I'm incorporating a straighter reach back immediately. Doing this feels much smoother and more powerful. It has also lessened the amount of extreme follow through that I had before. I'm going to get some more video after I work on it for a while so I can see how my body opens up for the elbow extension to happen.




imo, it's actually easier to get the right kind of shoulder orientation with a small scoop back. i actually conceptualized a lot of this by doing imitations of pros driving forms with a buddy of mine (and trying to guess who it was).

part of why you spiral off the end of the tee is because your opening motion is coming over the top thrusting your weight way forward as you finish. 95% of top pros follow through high on most of their shots and are very balanced at max extension.



I think I see what you are saying here: It's not like you're rotating robotically with everything rotating just at the base of the spine, but rather a dynamic twisting that involves the throwing shoulder more than the non-throwing side of the back. (if that makes sense at all)



correct. it's actually more of a fold over of the throwing shoulder. the way i have tried to describe it was to take a playing card, hold it at the center on the bottom, and then bend the right upper corner over envisioning that as your throwing shoulder rotating away. what you will find is that there is some twist at the base of the spine, but:
1) the right half of the back will always rotate more away than the left.
2) the only part of the back that really only needs to be directly facing the target at max reach back is the back of the throwing shoulder.

Wow, Blake has not put any info in about my drive. Interesting.

Grunion, should I tell you why again? :D

ah, been super busy and just sifted through this thread again and saw other people posted videos.

feel free to email me the videos if you want me to take a look at em. haven't had much in the line of free time but can probably get at em within a week or so.

Mine are posted on the thread Blake. Just save it locally and take your time. ;)

Blake

Any help would be appreciated. I posted two short clips on page 3 of this thread. I know that computer guys often say "RTFM" before going to the help desk. I have downloaded and read much of the material on your website. It has been a great help. Thanks! Yet, there is still a boatload of work to do.

Greg- Thanks for your input. I had dropped from a 5 step to a 4 step just before those shots were taken. I have slowed down since your post. Not flailing but still occassionally failing. :D

i haven't found a link to actually download the videos from those site.

i would like to rip frames from the videos if you want me to be thorough...

http://www.zippyvideos.com/101013963990205/100_0118/

http://www.zippyvideos.com/49785359990305/100_0127/

http://www.zippyvideos.com/105705262990375/100_0182/

right click on the link and select save target as. ;)
This will save the video locally to your hard drive.

Blake

http://www.zippyvideos.com/754176090996405/outtabounds_orc/
http://www.zippyvideos.com/968518358996535/outtabounds_storm/

I hope these work. The links activated when I tried them.

the links are to pages with streaming video and a save target yields an html document...

dang, any suggestions? How large of an email can you recieve?

Grunion, YouSendIt (http://www.yousendit.com/) is what you're looking for.

Nice service. Thanks for the direction.

http://s53.yousendit.com/d.php?id=3OO4W0A44E2OWXXV4RRNRWFKS

Where are you at man?

swamped with work. things should be clearing up soon.

blake t.

Aight.....take care of your business.
;)

ou can also pull up the video url in the "view->page info->media tab" pull down of netscape and look for the .wmv file

Grunion, unfortunately i can't do much with .mov's and it is tough to see much with the angle of video, but here is a general breakdown. keep in mind the stuff i'm writing here may not be all that negative in your game, but it is some things that could likely make your throw a little stronger/more consistent.

1) timing. your hips are not leading the upper body. your pull begins well before your hips begin to open.
http://www.discgolfreview.com/temp/grunion1.jpg

2) also looks like your upper body is leading purely with the shoulder. if you can lead a little more with the elbow, this generally yields a bit more snap for most players.

3) disc position. while i can't really see it for sure, it looks like you could have the disc a bit closer to your body. seems like you are coming around with the disc rather than pulling it through. guessing you were going for a flat throw, but appears this one came out with ~2-5 deg of anhyzer and a little torque over... if that was the case, it is likely related to this.

http://www.discgolfreview.com/temp/grunion2.jpg

4) finish and rip. it looks sort of like the disc is slipping out early, but this is mainly because your elbow extension seems to happen a bit late and more in the sideways direction than forwards direction. this is likely related to #3

5) finish and follow through. really doesn't look like you are finishing strong in a manner that will generate a lot of power.

http://www.discgolfreview.com/temp/grunion3.jpg

6) your lower body is coming through a little early after the throw and you tip forward before you really "should" if your step through was based upon your arm's finish (e.g. when you reach the point of rotation where your lower body MUST turn). this is usually indicative that you are not focusing power into the hit, but just sort of moving through the hit.

hope this could help

Thanks Blake. Should I submit another angle for ya? ;)

you can but i probably won't pull frames from it.

still owe outtabounds his comments too first. will try and get at that tonight or tomorrow.

DallasDG,

While Blake & many others have already had their input which covers a couple of the things I was going to say, I'd

like to add another perspective, and a few other things into the discussion.

Wrist - It looks like your wrist is really tight before & during the runup. If (and I can't see because of the angle) this stays as it is as you throw, you are robbing yourself of extra speed/spin generated from your wrist flick/snap

Grip - It looks like the disc is sitting at a slight angle to your forearm (a grip/wrist issue I would guess)

which means that you have more likelihood to roll it over as you release. You do compensate by coming through

releasing lower, chest height instead of say shoulder height. Trying to keep everything on the same plane is usually the easiest way to keep things flat & level.

Run-up - Basically the final step onto your front (plant) foot should be bigger, as this is when most of the

reachback & shoulder turn happens (just prior to the final forward part of the throw). The more you step out, more

time you've got to reach & turn, the more power you can generate in the next phase. This should also stop you from

spinning off the teepad, as more of your forward momentum can be transfered to angluar and into the disc's

momentum. The more you have after throwing, the less you have imparted and the less the disc has.

Throwing motion - While the camera angle obscures most of the throwing motion, there are two things I can see that

I want to discuss, one is the Left arm. The left arm is crucial in developing power in the throw. If you look at

powerful throwers, there are is tucked in down their side, often with their forearm at an angle. Why? It is

because they are bracing (fully tightened arm, chest & back) their LHS, so their Right can do what it has to do.
The other, is just to focus on getting the sequences right, from reachback, to plant, legs, hips, torso, shoulder,

elbow, wrist, flick/rip/hit/? and getting everything alligned in the direction you are throwing will help.

While you didn't specify, we all see to have assumed that you are not happy with your throw and want more, distance, power, accuracy etc. I know I did. Any help?

Now I await the analysis of the analysis

OK Dallas, many people have told you things that could be useful but remember every player develops his or her technique to fit their body and mind. If you try something that someone tells you and it just feels unnatural or uncomfortable then dont destroy your game trying to learn that technique. That being said, after looking at your drive I would reiterate what some others have said. You are not using your body enough. Too much arm. When you reach back keep the disc close to your body and pivot your hips. When you do this try not to bend your elbow too much. Pretend there is something behind you you are trying to grab. When you start your follow through snap your arm back through (close to your body again) like you are starting a lawnmower horizontally. Remember to use your hips and shoulders not just your arm. Well thats my 2 cents. Do with it what you will.

I've been working on slowly implementing all of the great advice I've gotten here. I've been Seeing what will work for me and what just didn't feel right. The biggest change so far is my reach back. It's much tighter and really feels a lot better. All of the little tips you guys have given me are really adding up to a much smoother drive. I am still working out all of the kinks, but on a good day I feel pretty consistent. My distance has increased a little - I can get it out to about 400' when a few things click together right. I know I'm capable of 450' - 500' if I can just get all of the elements to work together. That will just take some more time, and a little adjustment.

While my distance is improving gradually, I have experienced a huge jump in accuracy, partly due to increased confidence and partly due to better technique. The spinning off of the pad has stopped altogether.

I'm still a work in progress, no doubt. I think I will experiment with my grip and wrist tightness a little and see what happens. There's always something I can work on.

Thanks guys. I really appreciate the input.

-D