Innova just came out with a new frisbee called the pro Wraith. This thing is faster than a starfire, and it has the same glide! I was wondering if anyone out there had one yet and if they got better distance with it or if it is basically the same as the starfire. The starfire helped my distance by 60', so if this is better than the starfire, I will have to get one. :D

There are like 3 threads on it, just check out one of those. as far as i know, it hasnt hit the shelves yet, and dave from innova is one of the only people who have it.

That bites, I was hoping since they had it on their website, they would have it on the shelves already. Oh well, it'll come out sooner or later. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Didn't Dave say monday?

Hey Jared,
Why are you the only one that ever answers me? :confused:

The Wraiths have arrived at Innova East Coast.

because im on, and im looking for somehting to do?

Not to be a thread pirate, but I think this disc will basically be an attempt to catch up to the Illusion and the Venom.

You thread pirate, Boro!

Matt

P.S. good debut at ACTA from what I hear.

well i threw one yesterday....longer than the starfire for big arms.

What about us people with not the big arms what do you think about that how would it fly.

Is it available as a regular release? Or cfr only?

the pro is regular release, chamion is CFR. and tokyo it will be slightly overstable...in between a firebird and an orc

The stability makes sense, but how far does it get out there before dying off? The Firebird goes about 250-300 for me and then dies abruptly. I guess I am confused with comparing it to being between an Orc and Firebird since the Orc goes so much further being fading out...

Jared-Have you thrown the pro or CFR? Comapre to a champ Orc? Compare to champ Firebird? What type of flight path? S-shot, hyzer flip, straight, hyzer? Much appreciated

the disc has incredible speed, like the illusion, but has more glide. if you turn it over it flies a long way with little effort. and i have thrown both...yesterday. the pro is more of a distance disc, and the cfr is a little less stable than a predator i think.

Not to be a thread pirate, but I think this disc will basically be an attempt to catch up to the Illusion and the Venom.


this is without a doubt the funniest thing I've read on this forum in months.

Not to be a thread pirate, but I think this disc will basically be an attempt to catch up to the Illusion and the Venom.


this is without a doubt the funniest thing I've read on this forum in months.



Why? Innova makes good discs, I just don't think they had a disc even close to the Illusion and now the Venom. (Speedwise)

ddh is right on this one--s illusion and d venom are very similar; innova has nothing like that yet

Fast as can be...tons of glide.... ends very overstable ...

I'd be really interested in a fly by fly comparison to the discraft Z Avenger.

I'd love to try one, but my love affair with Proline Plastic has ended. Those discs seem to make a quick transition into flippy disc due to the wooded courses around here. Wide rimmed drivers especially.

People don't realize how good some of discrafts and gateways discs are, but I know I have an xs by discraft that would fly just as far as my starfire if my dog didn't chew it up. Now I mostly use it as a roller, but I can still get 250-275' with it throwing rhbh.

Pro Wraiths in stock Wednesday 8/25. Pre-Order HERE (http://www.sunkingdiscs.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=S&Product_Code=3112-PLWTH).

no, getting some from Barry. hehe

I've thrown both Champion and Proline versions of this disc and it's sweet! Not as overstable as I expected it to be though.

Are the Champion available for sale yet?

I've only seen champs on sponsored players so far.

And I agree ... the pro isn't as overstable as I expected. Very nice disc, a little more stable than my Starfires, which is excellent. When I can break one in, it's gonna hummmmmm.

I threw Dave Greenwells yesterday. He had a Innova logo stamped Proline and a Champion with the same stamp. They flew nearly identical w/ the Champion being a LITTLE more overstable. I like it A LOT!!! Both versions.

As far as I know the Champions are only avalible as CFR disc. Except to Innova pros of coarse.

Threw this twice today. It is a great distance driver. I threw the Pro and it was similar to a Z-Crush or a Z-Avenger in terms of stability. I got a couple out there about 450ish but nothing more than I could do with a Crush or Predator. I will keep messing around with it and see what it does.

I started out with the impression that in addition to being the fastest disc ever, the Wraith is also more stable than an Orc. I also thought the cfr Starfire X was more stable than a Champ Orc.

today i threw a Starfire X and a Pro Wraith, and it seemed that the Wraith was a lot like a Champ Orc but faster, and that a Starfire X was more stable.

but i didn't get to really find out by repetition. a friend suggested the Wraith wasn't that much different than a Pro Starfire (just a little more stable)

can someone clarify where in their experience they rank the
Pro Starfire-L
Champ Starfire-X
Champ Orc and
Pro Wraith?

also, how much more stable than the most stable among the above discs is the Pro Firebird (FL)?

thanks ...

The Pro FL is not that overstable. I really hated the disc, actually.

okay, well the Monster is so overstable to me it would take 100mph headwinds to encourage me to use it. (then again i can throw an ultrastar pretty far into a 20mph headwind...)

The Monster is very overstable. But I know a couple boys that flip them. It is sick.

i'm sure they can be flipped if you roll your wrist over. but as someone who grew up throwing frisbees, that seems almost like a crime... (it's hard enough to learn not to throw with too much hyzer :p )

I started out with the impression that in addition to being the fastest disc ever, the Wraith is also more stable than an Orc. I also thought the cfr Starfire X was more stable than a Champ Orc.

today i threw a Starfire X and a Pro Wraith, and it seemed that the Wraith was a lot like a Champ Orc but faster, and that a Starfire X was more stable.

but i didn't get to really find out by repetition. a friend suggested the Wraith wasn't that much different than a Pro Starfire (just a little more stable)

can someone clarify where in their experience they rank the
Pro Starfire-L
Champ Starfire-X
Champ Orc and
Pro Wraith?

also, how much more stable than the most stable among the above discs is the Pro Firebird (FL)?

thanks ...



All very different discs.

Pro Starfire - Flippy at high speed, straighter finish
Starfire X - Fast and straight with a hard left finish, very high speed stable
Champ Orc - Slightly flippy at high speed if you have enough snap, finishes hard left about the same as the SX
Pro Wraith - Stable at high speed but if you snap it enough and give it some Anny it can stay right on you. Goes VERY fast and very straight for 90% of its flight and then cuts very hard left.

i'm sure they can be flipped if you roll your wrist over. but as someone who grew up throwing frisbees, that seems almost like a crime... (it's hard enough to learn not to throw with too much hyzer :p )



I am not talking about throwing with an anhyzer. I am talking about a flat throw that flips.

I started out with the impression that in addition to being the fastest disc ever, the Wraith is also more stable than an Orc. I also thought the cfr Starfire X was more stable than a Champ Orc.

today i threw a Starfire X and a Pro Wraith, and it seemed that the Wraith was a lot like a Champ Orc but faster, and that a Starfire X was more stable.

but i didn't get to really find out by repetition. a friend suggested the Wraith wasn't that much different than a Pro Starfire (just a little more stable)

can someone clarify where in their experience they rank the
Pro Starfire-L
Champ Starfire-X
Champ Orc and
Pro Wraith?

also, how much more stable than the most stable among the above discs is the Pro Firebird (FL)?

thanks ...



All very different discs.

Pro Starfire - Flippy at high speed, straighter finish
Starfire X - Fast and straight with a hard left finish, very high speed stable
Champ Orc - Slightly flippy at high speed if you have enough snap, finishes hard left about the same as the SX
Pro Wraith - Stable at high speed but if you snap it enough and give it some Anny it can stay right on you. Goes VERY fast and very straight for 90% of its flight and then cuts very hard left.



thanks for that synapsis. that seems to be true to my limited experience and is very helpful in terms of my decision which to add to the bag and for what.

in a few throws into a wind today, i found the high-speed stability of the Starfire-X to be solid and i think it will replace the Pro Firebird i put in my bag recently to replace the Champ Monster. (i almost never have a need for that much stability anyway and the Starfire-X seems to be good into a head wind and yet not too overstable to get much other use)

i haven't thrown it much -- but -- where would you place the Pro Firebird-L? i liked the grip for forehands, but don't drive with forehands very much... my putter is my go-to forehand disc...

i'm sure they can be flipped if you roll your wrist over. but as someone who grew up throwing frisbees, that seems almost like a crime... (it's hard enough to learn not to throw with too much hyzer :p )



I am not talking about throwing with an anhyzer. I am talking about a flat throw that flips.



frisbees got me used to throwing with so much hyzer (rolling wrist under) that a flat throw feels like i am rolling my wrist over :D

You can flip the pro wraith without rolling your wrist. I put a slight amount of hyzer on mine, and it flips flat (throw sidearm, btw.)While it isn't as fast as a CFR Starfire-X, I feel it is less stable. It is more stable that the CFR Starfire-L, or maybe that is just me as mine has hit concrete once or twice. :(

I got a chance to throw one last night for the first time. I only got 1 throw with it but thats about all I needed. This disc is much different than anything I have thrown.

The best way I can describe what I experienced was. Imagine a speed 11 Teebird. 90% of its flight was straight as an arrow and very fast. The last 10% cut hard left. I seen someone launch one over 480ft and he said he put less than half his power into it. He looked like he was throwing a gentle midrange and it went 480ft with ease.

I think this disc is gonna be big.

Not to be a thread pirate, but I think this disc will basically be an attempt to catch up to the Illusion and the Venom.

that's one of the funniest things i have ever read

I started out with the impression that in addition to being the fastest disc ever, the Wraith is also more stable than an Orc. I also thought the cfr Starfire X was more stable than a Champ Orc.

today i threw a Starfire X and a Pro Wraith, and it seemed that the Wraith was a lot like a Champ Orc but faster, and that a Starfire X was more stable.

but i didn't get to really find out by repetition. a friend suggested the Wraith wasn't that much different than a Pro Starfire (just a little more stable)

can someone clarify where in their experience they rank the
Pro Starfire-L
Champ Starfire-X
Champ Orc and
Pro Wraith?

also, how much more stable than the most stable among the above discs is the Pro Firebird (FL)?

thanks ...



All very different discs.

Pro Starfire - Flippy at high speed, straighter finish
Starfire X - Fast and straight with a hard left finish, very high speed stable
Champ Orc - Slightly flippy at high speed if you have enough snap, finishes hard left about the same as the SX
Pro Wraith - Stable at high speed but if you snap it enough and give it some Anny it can stay right on you. Goes VERY fast and very straight for 90% of its flight and then cuts very hard left.



thanks for that synapsis. that seems to be true to my limited experience and is very helpful in terms of my decision which to add to the bag and for what.

in a few throws into a wind today, i found the high-speed stability of the Starfire-X to be solid and i think it will replace the Pro Firebird i put in my bag recently to replace the Champ Monster. (i almost never have a need for that much stability anyway and the Starfire-X seems to be good into a head wind and yet not too overstable to get much other use)

i haven't thrown it much -- but -- where would you place the Pro Firebird-L? i liked the grip for forehands, but don't drive with forehands very much... my putter is my go-to forehand disc...



Havent tried the Pro Firebird. I dont really flick Pro plastic, its too flippy at high speed. After a few rounds with the wraith I am flipping it when I flick for distance with it. I need pretty overstable plastic for my forehands or I have to hyzer flip everything. I'll stick with my CE Firebird and Champion Whippet.

New Report on the Wraith:

Okay, after the HB monthly last Saturday I'm not sure this disc is the be-all/end-all that I thought it was after Tucson.

I bought one of these on the Thursday before I went to Tucson two weeks ago. I threw it about two times in the field right before the tourney and it felt so much like a Starfire, only farther flying, that I had no problem going to it in the tourney. It kicked booty and worked like a champ. Double-thumbs-up rating. Personal rating: buy this disc now!

Fast forward one week. At the HB monthly the Wraith was getting finicky on me. It would flip and not come back. It always went long, but now it was not too predictable. Faster than heck, but very finicky. This time it was really reminding me of when the Beast first came out. I like 168g drivers and a 168 candy Valk was my main driver when the Beast came out. I got a 168g candy Beast right away, and for one tourney in Vegas it was the shiznit. I was throwing it low into a howling headwind and it was working. It was fast and it was money. But not anymore....suddenly the Beast was finicky as heck. Lay it down on the perfect line and it would go farther than anything I had. But maybe it flips up and never comes back, and maybe it doesn't flip at all and hyzers out badly. The Wraith seems to be doing this for me now.

I picked up a 172g Wraith to go with the 170g I have. Hopefully the extra couple of grams gets me some more predictablility without killing the super distance.

Same thing happened to me. The first few rounds with it I thought it was amazing. I figured beating it up a little bit would give it a little bit of high speed turn and make it an even longer disc, sort of like an even faster pro orc. Now I find myself flipping it sometimes, and sometimes it just flies dead straight, and sometimes it hyzers out really hard. I think its VERY sensitive to nose angle and height. I need to find a replacement for my pro orcs. :(

Hmmm, could be the big dome. Usually domey discs are less stable. I'm hoping after it gets worn in it will be a great hyser-flipper. I'm hoping if after it's initial break-in, it will dwell for a long time as such. Like a slightly more stable SF. It DOES come back, doesn't it? In any case, the CFR's will prolly be sweet.

Fast forward one week. At the HB monthly the Wraith was getting finicky on me. It would flip and not come back. It always went long, but now it was not too predictable. Faster than heck, but very finicky. This time it was really reminding me of when the Beast first came out. I like 168g drivers and a 168 candy Valk was my main driver when the Beast came out. I got a 168g candy Beast right away, and for one tourney in Vegas it was the shiznit. I was throwing it low into a howling headwind and it was working. It was fast and it was money. But not anymore....suddenly the Beast was finicky as heck. Lay it down on the perfect line and it would go farther than anything I had. But maybe it flips up and never comes back, and maybe it doesn't flip at all and hyzers out badly. The Wraith seems to be doing this for me now.




That sounds more like a review of pro plastic than the wraith in particular. Pro plastic always make a fast transition and becomes flippy quickly. If you can live with the flippy, great....if you want it to remain stable, go with Champion or CFR (or a z-avenger)

I am experiencing similar problems to what Rhett is describing only it is happening with my Pro Starfire. I am pretty sure it is not solely a matter of the Pro plastic. I think it is a combination of the Pro plastic and the weight of the disc on the rim.

Again, it could also be nose angle, but when new, I found the Starfire to be less nose angle sensitive than discs with comparable speeds, in a sense. If I threw an Orc badly and a Starfire equally poorly, the Starfire went further on the same line.

At any rate, I am thinking that some of these higher speed drivers are just squirrly when you get down to it.

Yep-

This is more of a function of the plastic v. the mold. This was the same problem I was having with my Starfires in pro, until I bucked up and found some CFR's from the Washington St. tourney. Now, no more problems.

That said, I've thrown my WR exactly 5 times,and I'm very happy with it. Each time, it's been in a NO TREE OR CONCRETE zone, and I'm trying my best to treat it with kid gloves. That is, until I get my CFR Wraith. It cannot be denied though, the pro plastic does have more glide when compared to Champion plastic of the same weight.

And there is no comparision between a Wraith and an Avenger, in any plastic. No brand loyalties, there just not the same disc.

There are differences, but the Wraith and Avenger that I throw are almost interchangable. I've got a 171 pro-wraith and a 164-166 Avenger that fly nearly identically.


Yep-

This is more of a function of the plastic v. the mold. This was the same problem I was having with my Starfires in pro, until I bucked up and found some CFR's from the Washington St. tourney. Now, no more problems.

That said, I've thrown my WR exactly 5 times,and I'm very happy with it. Each time, it's been in a NO TREE OR CONCRETE zone, and I'm trying my best to treat it with kid gloves. That is, until I get my CFR Wraith. It cannot be denied though, the pro plastic does have more glide when compared to Champion plastic of the same weight.

And there is no comparision between a Wraith and an Avenger, in any plastic. No brand loyalties, there just not the same disc.

I am now parking holes around the 400' barrier that weren't reachable before.

The Pro Wraith doesn't just outdistance every other driver, it KILLS everythng else for distance. It just seems to glide and glide forever. It goes a good 30 feet past my former farthest drivers (Champ Orc and Pro Starfire).

The main difference between this disc and older NEW releases is that this distance gain is REALLY noticable. Before when each new disc came out, whether it be a Crush, Orc, Pro Starfire, Beast, whatever...it was only a very slight distance gain for me. Maybe 5 feet. The Champ Orc Goes 5 feet farther than the Z Crush and the Pro Starfire might go 5 feet farther than the Champ Orc. The Pro Wraith goes a good 30 farther than the Pro Starfire EVERY time. Believe me, I have thrown them heads up in a field for hours.

You want extra distance without changing your throw...get a Wraith!! :cool::) NUFF SAID

Where are the CFR's?

coming soon.

The Pro Wraith out of the box is a great hyzer flip disc for me. I can throw it with hyzer and let it flip and it goes 550 pretty easily for me. For those who want a more stable and better into the wind disc, wait until the CFR Wraiths come out. I have thrown a candy Wraith and it is the BOMB. Very stable, and great into the wind, plus as with all champion plastic will not beat in as quick. The CFR Wraiths will be worth the money for anyone who likes the Wraith, but needs more stability, I know I will buy a few.

just threw one today for the first time (of the ones that I actually bought).

Here's all I have to say to my disc golf bag.

Goodbye Orc.
Hello Wraith.

I can throw it with hyzer and let it flip and it goes 550 pretty easily for me.


LOL. Wow! If you actually put some effort into it, you could destroy the World record by probly over 300 feet!!

FYI, I have never seen Bobby throw a Wraith, but I have seen him throw an Aviar 400 ft. He's an animal. :)

I know like 2 or 4 Jr's who can throw a putter 400' but that doesn't mean you can get 550' with a driver. :D

New Report on the Wraith:

Okay, after the HB monthly last Saturday I'm not sure this disc is the be-all/end-all that I thought it was after Tucson.

I bought one of these on the Thursday before I went to Tucson two weeks ago. I threw it about two times in the field right before the tourney and it felt so much like a Starfire, only farther flying, that I had no problem going to it in the tourney. It kicked booty and worked like a champ. Double-thumbs-up rating. Personal rating: buy this disc now!

Fast forward one week. At the HB monthly the Wraith was getting finicky on me. It would flip and not come back. It always went long, but now it was not too predictable. Faster than heck, but very finicky. This time it was really reminding me of when the Beast first came out. I like 168g drivers and a 168 candy Valk was my main driver when the Beast came out. I got a 168g candy Beast right away, and for one tourney in Vegas it was the shiznit. I was throwing it low into a howling headwind and it was working. It was fast and it was money. But not anymore....suddenly the Beast was finicky as heck. Lay it down on the perfect line and it would go farther than anything I had. But maybe it flips up and never comes back, and maybe it doesn't flip at all and hyzers out badly. The Wraith seems to be doing this for me now.

I picked up a 172g Wraith to go with the 170g I have. Hopefully the extra couple of grams gets me some more predictablility without killing the super distance.




Still looking for your fountain of youth? :)

As the days turn into years, I've found myself enjoying lighter, less stable discs too.

So there are three Starfire's out there right? The Pro the SF and the SL right? How would you rank the Wraith against the Starfire L? :D

So there are three Starfire's out there right? The Pro the SF and the SL right? How would you rank the Wraith against the Starfire L? :D



Acutally, the Pro is a Starfire-L. There's the original Starfire, which isn't made anymore, the Starfire X which was more overstable than the original and the Starfire L which is the newest and comes in both CFR and Pro plastics

I throw a CFR Starfire L (172)as my go-to distance driver, as well as my distance shots that need some right to straight off the tee (RHBH). I used to throw the the Pro Starfire, but the plastic turned too inconsistent after a couple of tree hits. The CFR is the answer, and should be made into regular production.

That said, there's really no comparison between the Starfire-L and the Wraith, other than they are both silly long. The Wraith is more overstable - even in Pro plastic v. CFR plastic Starfire-L. I've found the Wraith goes the farthest for me with a little bit of annehyzer - if I release it flat, I can't make it ride far enough before it wants to come out of glide mode. Annie it though - and it will make an S, get flat, glide, and GO!!! It does fade well at the end.

CFR Starfire-L's are a great disc. I can't get enough of them. If you have one, and don't like it, I'll trade you a CFR Starfire-X for it. Looking for 170-173. PM me for details.

Keith

Official CFR disc of the 2006 Pro World Championships in Augusta
Coming soon.......

http://members.aol.com/pdgareg8/CEWraith.jpg

I am now parking holes around the 400' barrier that weren't reachable before.

The Pro Wraith doesn't just outdistance every other driver, it KILLS everythng else for distance. It just seems to glide and glide forever. It goes a good 30 feet past my former farthest drivers (Champ Orc and Pro Starfire).

The main difference between this disc and older NEW releases is that this distance gain is REALLY noticable. Before when each new disc came out, whether it be a Crush, Orc, Pro Starfire, Beast, whatever...it was only a very slight distance gain for me. Maybe 5 feet. The Champ Orc Goes 5 feet farther than the Z Crush and the Pro Starfire might go 5 feet farther than the Champ Orc. The Pro Wraith goes a good 30 farther than the Pro Starfire EVERY time. Believe me, I have thrown them heads up in a field for hours.

You want extra distance without changing your throw...get a Wraith!! :cool::) NUFF SAID



Aww man. I thought I was done buying discs for awhile. Add one more to the list. One question. I have a 166 pro Orc that I have kept away from damage so far. I need to throw that with a little hyzer for a good throw. Should I get the same weight pro wraith?

the Pro Wraith is only available from 170-175 grams, krusen.

I ordered a Wraith from discsunlimited.net (super nice people btw) but it was for my friend (I got a clear Sidewinder).
They arrived today & I instantly noticed how similar the rim is too the Quarter K. It's almost identical in width, but the QK is just a hair higher. The Wraith has one of the flattest rims "I" have seen.

Just wanted to mention this to anyone that was interested in the disc but hasn't seen it yet. Personally I don't care for a wide rim as I can't get the grip on it.

I haven't thrown it yet so who knows how far my girly arm can throw it but my friend has a fast sidearm and loves his Pro Beast (wide rim) so he should love this too.

I'll report back once we go & throw a round with it.


(edit: Anyone have anything to trade for this QK? 174-Red. I don't want it. I found it, no name, thrown a handful of times. I'd be interested in a Wizard for trade)

Doh. Can't edit...... but the QK has been traded.


Thanks.

players pack for the USDGC will have a CFR Wraith....

haha ... like all the players that play USDGC don't already have one ... except the one's sponsored by another company besides Innova.

How beat does it need to be , to go flat ?

the Pro Wraith is only available from 170-175 grams, krusen.



Cool...............If one is created around 165 grams , let me know. :D

I think i heard dave explain that this mold cant be made lighter than 170ish because it uses alot of plastic. not 100% sure, but i know this is the case for some discs...

haha ... like all the players that play USDGC don't already have one ... except the one's sponsored by another company besides Innova.


I don't have one yet. :)

[QUOTE]
haha ... like all the players that play USDGC don't already have one ... except the one's sponsored by another company besides Innova. [QUOTE]

i dont have one either and just threw one yesterday for the first time, I threw a pro and a cfr, i have to get used to the rim.
It was really fast and when i threw it poorly it still went 400

Just got the pro Wraith this week and played with it in a local tourney here in Vegas. There was a steady 10-15mph wind with gusts up to 25mph.

Into the wind it would still flip over, but it didn't get away from me. If I threw it with a lot of hyzer, it would pop up and fly pretty straight. Down wind it was stable and predictable. Would like to see how it is different in calmer winds.

It was very fast out of the hand and it did have pretty nice glide. I also tried to compare it to a first run Champion Orc and the Orc was just as stable into the wind if not a little more stable.

Can't wait to try the CFR Wraith when the come in for the Halloween tourney here in Vegas.

Got a chance to throw the pro wraith this weekend...

downwind... my pro orc and pro starfire were definitely further.

upwind... the pro wraith was a little further (15 feet).

as of right now i don't feel that it will be kicking anything out of the bag, but I will be playing with it some more during practice.

Ok...i picked up a new one from a fellow disc golfer for $5. This disc is very sensitive to nose angle.

I am going ot go out to High point and throw this and the avenger a few times and see what I can do with it.

If the pro wraith takes anything out of my bag it will be my cfr starfire(1st run....has more high speed turn than the other starfires)

the wraiths and roadrunners have taken five discs out of my bag.

ok...did some testing...

I took a Z-Avenger and Pro Wraith and threw it a few times on some open holes on Saturday and on Sunday I had huge headwinds/tailwinds to pay with...

I really don't know where you guys are saying that the Pro Wraith is easy to flip over because I never got it to go to the right unless I threw it with anny. Also, like I said before it was very sensitive to nose angles.

The Z-Avenger flew wonderfully for me. I was getting the same distance with the Zavenger that I was with the wraith. But I didn't have the same crash and burn like I was getting with the pro wraith.

Right now the only thing I can see useful for hte pro wraith is those huge hyzer shots which means I will be able to take out my heavy Zflick and Monster.

Zavenger is more of a control driver and will replace the starfire.

I threw a CFR Wraith this weekend and found that when throw full power with flat release it liked to turn over and never come back for me but if I threw it with the right amount of Hyzer release it fliped up and slightly over glided for ever then came out. I think I got a couple throws out to 500 with the CFR Wraith but it was very very touchy. I dont think that its a very consistent flyer when released full power. I have not tried to throw controlled golf shots with it yet but will try next time I get my hands on one.

Threw my pro Wraith to just left of "Shooter's Grave on hole 11 Renny Gold. Had a tailwind, got it to flip barely, and ripped it good.

We estimate this to be about 440 slightly uphill. The Wraith can do things that no other disc I have ever thrown can do. I can throw hyzers with it farther than I can throw any shot with any other disc in most circumstances.

I've noticed some unique things with the Wraith too. It's overstable but it doesn't crash early like my Orc or Beast. I am a wienie arm backhand but I can throw this thing hyzer farther than any other disc. There is something different about this disc.