Just thinking long and hard about this for a while.

I remember as am playing tournaments and winning all these discs and what not that I didn't need and probably would never throw. Although I only put one thing ever up on ebay (a rev. bag I won and didn't want), the thought always came in my mind - to put my winnings on ebay.

So many times I think amatuers are making more money than me playing in the same tournament and them competeing against lower competition. (Let me go ahead a clarify that yeah I enjoy making money playing disc golf, but I rarely cash so that is not in question - I just enjoy playing in tournament atmospheres).

I know there was a big thread about flat payout etc., but I just want to hear opinions on how ebay in my opinion has ruined amatuerism. If a player can make money playing advanced by selling discs on ebay, I have a problem with that.

Also, think of an 8X roc or a 2001 Roc. I bet that without ebay's involvement, these discs would not sell for nearly what they do on there.

I don't know if you could say ebay is responsible for ams staying ams. I can remember once in Wichita Ks. I got 2nd in adv. Won some plastic and sold it for gas money home.(only time I ever sold plastic from my winnings) So I can see exactly what your saying. Around here I see a ton of people selling their winnings from minis from their payouts and always play adv. or int. adv. and never move to improve skills or just plain don't care what people think and keep beating the comp. Sad very sad. :(

Trophy only would be great if it would draw the same amount of players but I don't see that happening. In fact it would probably turn some players away from the sport hindering the growth of the pdga.

I'm sure ebay is a platform for people to make money and not move up, but how many people you think?

If they are going to sell it they will sell it however they can.

I think it's probably easier to sell the discs to locals at the course than it is to list the discs, get a sale, arrange for payment, go to the shipper, and turn the payment into hard cash.

In some ways its hard for me to understand people's motivation to hang around lower classes just to find more ways to make cash.

I mean everyone started playing this game for the pure love and competition of the game. Am I right ???

That being said. Its easy for me in my line of work to not have much of an issue with making money. But once being in college myself I know what its like to be a student. And I understand that and don't see much wrong with that.

But to all older adults who have professional careers:
Get a freaking life !!!

What's wrong with selling plastic on Ebay????!!!!! :confused:

I have a garage full of discs. I very seldom sell anything I win, but have given away quite a few discs, and some very valuable collectors discs. I have given away about a dozen CE-ROCS(including 2 2001s) for raffles or fund raisers.

One day I might sell on ebay, but I don't really see it happening.

Now as to the question about it having opened up a previously unavailable market for Ams to sell winnings, I would have to say it has put small markets on the same footing as large markets. There has always been a market for converting plastic to cash around here (DFW), but can see where in more isolated DG communities it would be a problem.

I don't think it has added to the players willing to sell plastic for profit, just made the market equally accessible for all of those interested.

Also, think of an 8X roc or a 2001 Roc. I bet that without ebay's involvement, these discs would not sell for nearly what they do on there.




I think they may actually sell for more without ebays involvement since they would be a lil harder to find....

I sell everything I win. Everything. Automatically and with no effort whatsoever. I never even know what I won before I sell it. My system? I'm the merch guy. I just leave my prizes in the bins!

If you don't want to make less by going pro, DON'T GO PRO. The way disc golf is currently I don't see why anyone would go pro until they were good enough to cash at the big tournaments. There is no money in this game. If those Am Worlds top finishers can stay amateur into their 970s and 980s, you can certainly stay amateur in your 950s and 960s.

I actuallly posted this on our club message board before this topic was posted.
-----
I'm part of the disc golf system until the PDGA changes to trophy only or until I go pro. I'm betting I go pro before they change. That will be after am nationals. I personally think the system works.

I play lots of tournaments. The entry fee has varied from $30.00 to $75.00 this year. I've spent around $400+ in entry fees this year. This does not include traveling expenses. Please, don't tell my wife . My PDGA membership was $40.00 this year. Club membership was $15.00. It's going to cost about $1,300 to go to Rock Hill in October. Every penny is worth it since i'm doing something I love. Boy do i respect all the touring pros. They aren't making much!

I get to play PDGA events in various locations, get rated rounds, PDGA points, develop skills and confidence in competitive situations, develop relationships, and many other memories throughout the process.

My entry fee goes to am payouts and many times adds cash to the Open Division. It also supports the PDGA. It may also put a few bucks in the pocket of the TD who busted his butt to organize the event. My entry fee may also support a club or funds to install a new course. This distribution of entry varies from each TD.

The TD orders discs from various companies. He may also order T-Shirts, Trophies, & other merchandise from other companies. He may also use a sponsor to supply his discs or player pack. He supports other businesses such as Kinkos & Office Max.

Sponsors get publicity.

Ams may get a good player pack from this sponsorship or Pros may get added cash to their division.Maybe even a free lunch or who knows what else.

Manufactures make money off discs. Many of them sponsor events. Most are majors but they do sponsor some small stuff. They help promote the game of disc golf.

When I play well I win some discs. I keep some discs to throw. I also keep some as backups. Some are also backups to backups. I sell the other discs I don't throw to players for cheap. I take that money, put it in a disc golf envelope, then play more tournaments. Sometimes I give a few discs away to strangers or kids and sometimes I donate them to the club. Sometimes I donate my league winnings back to the club or purchase a club memberships for various people who may not have joined otherwise. I promote the game of disc golf, the club, & the PDGA.

Players get discs for cheap or free. They might find a disc they like and go buy a few more of them. They may even get addicted to the game and start playing tournaments. They may get friends to play. They may even become a promoter of the game

The cycle keeps going & going.

If you would like to buy some cheap discs, check this link out.
http://discontinuum.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=1771&st=0

If you don't want to make less by going pro, DON'T GO PRO. The way disc golf is currently I don't see why anyone would go pro until they were good enough to cash at the big tournaments.


I never thought you were a bad guy bruce, but this statement is weak. WEAK. Last year there were 8 people in the world that were better than you in your division. Still playing AM so you can turn your AM payout (that every other AM gets in plastic) into cash by playing weaker competition. WEAK. Sure you set up some tourneys and have the plastic, but I see this as your way to get around AM merch payouts.

That being said. Its easy for me in my line of work to not have much of an issue with making money. But once being in college myself I know what its like to be a student. And I understand that and don't see much wrong with that.

But to all older adults who have professional careers:
Get a freaking life !!!




i am personally a college student and i never have money during school....but i only played in the advanced division for 4 months then moved up because i wanted to make money...my rating is 984, i don't have a problem winning plastic at all. but bagging for the soul porpuse to sell the plastic for money is ridiculous. especially if you are an adult and already have a professional career. seriously get a life...or i will play you for money, or plastic if you prefer :D

To echo what cevalkyrie is saying, I don't believe you can make much more than the cost of the tournament (in most cases) by reselling plastic. Once you figure in gas money, hotels, entrance fees, time spent practicing, money invested in plastic and bags, etc. etc. For most people you are barely talking a break even venture.

Now, if the tournament gives 3 2001 CE Rocs to the winner, then all bets are off. Most of the plastic I see being given away are newer discs that retail between $8-20. Not much money if you also consider the chunk EBay takes out...

EBay is hard to really get a grasp on.

Still the most over-talked about argument on the message board. Everyone talks about the guys that are making money playing disc golf or running disc golf events. Yes, there are specific examples over short periods of time that people make a little money. I bet the guys that profit the most are the area pros that don't travel out their regions. As soon as you start actually adding travel expenses -- even long car rides -- you're not making a good business decision. As far as amateurs making money, the big tournaments just don't make any sense to me. No one's figuring in the number of hours you're spending playing, practicing, etc. It's silly the way the structure is to considering any disc golfers making money. Now are there some making more than you .. . . yes. Play better. Show me the guy that's making a killing playing amateur disc golf. Just because he got 20 discs and you didn't -- don't expect he'll be pulling up in the Bentley at the next event. Let's pretend that a good amateur golfer gets 20 discs and sells each one for $10 cash on the spot. He's got $200 cash in hand. A tournament giving out 20 discs probably has a $50 entry fee and is a two day event. Now he has $150. He had to play 4 rounds of tournament golf to win. Let's be conservative and estimate that it took 20 hours to play those 4 rounds. Let's pretend that he bummed a ride with friends to and from the course and lunch was provided and that's all he ate all day. He's just made $7.50 an hour after taxes. Call the Rolex dealer -- order up the P-Diddy autographed version.

I've done the examples for the tournament directors in years passed and they're still giving it all away -- and they don't even get to play!!

Why doesn't anyone make any money? Because everyone's just paying enough to finance the get together. There isn't any profit built-in because it's just being run as a party. This isn't a bad thing if you've got the time to waste. It's just a thing.

Let's pretend that a good amateur golfer gets 20 discs and sells each one for $10 cash on the spot. He's got $200 cash in hand.



How about-The Am that wins plastic sells all his winnings to his competitors, as a payout (Effectively turning his payout into $$$). Consider that he bought these discs at about $5-8 and is selling them for $10-20 (and more profits from dyes that his brother did). Consider that he sells trophies that his family made to his other competitors. He converts alot of money that came from other AMs' entry fees into $$ (not merch). I'm going to say that Bruce makes alot more (whether it be for his daughter's club or not) than $7.50 an hour for tournaments that he supplies plastic for. He probably makes more than most Pros' payout profits that attend tournaments he supplies for.

But now you are comparing apples to mangos.

What the TD earns from an event is not comparable to what a competitor wins at an event. Just because he decides to dump all of his winnings into the prize bins, he is no different from any other Am that sells his prizes except that he gets retail prices for his.

If you don't want to make less by going pro, DON'T GO PRO. The way disc golf is currently I don't see why anyone would go pro until they were good enough to cash at the big tournaments.


I never thought you were a bad guy bruce, but this statement is weak. WEAK. Last year there were 8 people in the world that were better than you in your division. Still playing AM so you can turn your AM payout (that every other AM gets in plastic) into cash by playing weaker competition. WEAK. Sure you set up some tourneys and have the plastic, but I see this as your way to get around AM merch payouts.

Check my ratings for the rounds that have been rated this year and then get back to me. Know your facts before you pass judgment.

You're just ignorant. That's all there is to it. I would not even respond to you, since my New Years resolution was not to argue with idiots, but to set the record straight,

I drove 700 miles round trip to run that tournament pulling a travel trailer and feeding other people's kids all weekend. Do the math on 10 miles to the gallon and $2.50 per gallon, wiseguy. Jenny does not eat that much but Sarah is a vacuum cleaner! [Just kidding, both of you.]

Kira makes the money on her trophy business. I don't charge her rent but maybe I should?

And we don't sell Jon's dyed discs, yet. We sell my dyed discs. I spend an hour cutting a cool custom sticker and get $4 for that. I'm going to Cozumel on that kind of dough, eh? The $1 and $2 dye jobs take five minutes each. No one is getting rich on dying 50 discs a month.

This thread wasn't started asking about TD's who make money or about people who make money dyeing plastic...was it?

Let's pretend that Bruce runs a tournament every weekend and gouges you ams. Are you contending that you're the only guy that does the math? So there's 50 guys paying $30 to enter the tournament and there's not 10 guys standing around afterward doing the math to make sure that Bruce isn't ripping you off? You're neighborhood's way different than mine then. I'm sure that someone would be crying foul other than you. I'm also sure that after a week of it the competitors even if they were polite enough not to raise a stink about certainly wouldn't sign up -- why bother? Unless the tournament's on Bruce's land and it's the only course that you guys want to play. It ain't rocket science to figure out what the guy running a tournament is making. It's usually way in the red numbers -- even before you factor in his time.

Now -- if there ever was some kind of sponsorship money coming in, then a TD could actually make a buck or two. Of course, now's about the time when all the TD's chime in that "even though I could have kept X amount, I put it all toward the MPO to "promote" the sport". Which is ludicrous since all they're promoting by doing that is usually the biggie size meal at the nearest fast food joint.

You typed Bruce was getting rich by "selling" trophies? Selling makes the world go around -- if it ain't worth buying, don't buy it. If Bruce's figured out how to get rich selling disc golf trophies than you shouldn't be antagnozing him because way smarter than you or I.

Shut up and throw the disc.

But now you are comparing apples to mangos.

What the TD earns from an event is not comparable to what a competitor wins at an event. Just because he decides to dump all of his winnings into the prize bins, he is no different from any other Am that sells his prizes except that he gets retail prices for his.



http://www.joyofbaking.com/images/apple.jpg

http://www.eonline.com/On/Snl/PhotoGallery/Images/snl101.lopez.skit.010704.jpg

Very different.

You're just ignorant. That's all there is to it. I would not even respond to you, since my New Years resolution was not to argue with idiots, but to set the record straight,

I drove 700 miles round trip to run that tournament pulling a travel trailer and feeding other people's kids all weekend. Do the math on 10 miles to the gallon and $2.50 per gallon, wiseguy. Jenny does not eat that much but Sarah is a vacuum cleaner! [Just kidding, both of you.]
<font color="green">Are you talking about Lombard? I was talking about all the events in MI that you have run or supplied plastic for in the past 3 years. Alot of them. Dont you drive a saturn? </font>

Kira makes the money on her trophy business. I don't charge her rent but maybe I should?
<font color="green"> I know she makes money, thats a good thing. How much does 1 trophy fetch as a payout? I don't know why you speak of rent.
</font>

And we don't sell Jon's dyed discs, yet. We sell my dyed discs. I spend an hour cutting a cool custom sticker and get $4 for that. I'm going to Cozumel on that kind of dough, eh? The $1 and $2 dye jobs take five minutes each. No one is getting rich on dying 50 discs a month.
<font color="green">I was wrong. You dye your own plastic. But I like your way of thinking. Just because it takes you an hour to make one custom stamp sticker, it does not take you an hour to make every disc that goes into your dye bin, the sale of which profits you $1-4, for just the dye. How much do you make off the non-dyed discs? You're not going to Cozumel, you're going to other amateur tournaments for cheap, and if you supply the plastic, then even cheaper, just to play against weaker competition and make more money than the pros who man up.</font>




Now obviously this is America and everything you're doing is legal and nothing really morally wrong. But your statement of "If you don't want to make less by going pro, DON'T GO PRO" is very very weak, and I think you enjoy playing against weaker competition to earn more money. and in my opinion, THAT IS WEAK

No.

Along the same lines, I ran a winner take all doubles match every week over the past couple summers. For several weeks in a row these 2 guys complained that I never bought food or beverages for the event. Even after I attempted to explain the theory behind "winners-take-all" they knew that I was getting rich somehow. I'd take in $10 per man and hand all the money right back to whatever team won . . . . I guess I was getting rich off the interest I made while it was sitting my pocket during the round. At every disc golf event there are conspiracy theorists -- they're the best.

Another guy won about $300 profit over about 7 weeks of playing in this weekly event. He quit coming because of the random draw format and he didn't like "carrying" someone that wasn't as good as he was . . . ?? He knew for sure that the pairings were fixed -- he is about a 1000 rated guy that was playing against a bunch of 940ish guys for $$ and complaining that the draw was fixed!! In the long run he is better alone than any two of us paired together. The proof was in the $$!! He had it, we didn't. Had he kept coming it probably would have been obvious to even him, but I'm not so sure.

Disc golfers aren't the sharpest tools in the elevator that didn't quite make it to the nobody home.

WOW. I never realized how HUGE the gap between apples and mangos was. Incredible! :D

Let's pretend that Bruce runs a tournament every weekend and gouges you ams. Are you contending that you're the only guy that does the math? So there's 50 guys paying $30 to enter the tournament and there's not 10 guys standing around afterward doing the math to make sure that Bruce isn't ripping you off? You're neighborhood's way different than mine then. I'm sure that someone would be crying foul other than you. I'm also sure that after a week of it the competitors even if they were polite enough not to raise a stink about certainly wouldn't sign up -- why bother? Unless the tournament's on Bruce's land and it's the only course that you guys want to play. It ain't rocket science to figure out what the guy running a tournament is making. It's usually way in the red numbers -- even before you factor in his time.
<font color="green">
You think I'm tearing apart all TD's or something. No, I appreciate every minute that any volunteer puts in for the sake of growing our sport. I even appreciate when TD's make some $$ to compensate for all their time spent, I know I would want to. It's about Bruce staying in the AM division because it's way easier for him to make money.</font>

Now -- if there ever was some kind of sponsorship money coming in, then a TD could actually make a buck or two. Of course, now's about the time when all the TD's chime in that "even though I could have kept X amount, I put it all toward the MPO to "promote" the sport". Which is ludicrous since all they're promoting by doing that is usually the biggie size meal at the nearest fast food joint.

You typed Bruce was getting rich by "selling" trophies? Selling makes the world go around -- if it ain't worth buying, don't buy it. If Bruce's figured out how to get rich selling disc golf trophies than you shouldn't be antagnozing him because way smarter than you or I.
<font color="green">
Rich? don't put words in my mouth, buster. I said his family makes money off of them, which is true, and fine by me, I'm sure they spend time and effort on them. If I went to bruce's tournament and placed, I bought a trophy with my payout money, with out my option. I didnt want to buy it, but I did. Again I'm calling bruce weak because of the statement he made concerning staying an AM because it's easier for him to make money playing against lower competition </font>

Shut up and throw the disc.
<font color="green"> Agreeable </font>

So MTL, we answering your question? :D

No.

Along the same lines, I ran a winner take all doubles match every week over the past couple summers. For several weeks in a row these 2 guys complained that I never bought food or beverages for the event. Even after I attempted to explain the theory behind "winners-take-all" they knew that I was getting rich somehow. I'd take in $10 per man and hand all the money right back to whatever team won . . . . I guess I was getting rich off the interest I made while it was sitting my pocket during the round. At every disc golf event there are conspiracy theorists -- they're the best.

Another guy won about $300 profit over about 7 weeks of playing in this weekly event. He quit coming because of the random draw format and he didn't like "carrying" someone that wasn't as good as he was . . . ?? He knew for sure that the pairings were fixed -- he is about a 1000 rated guy that was playing against a bunch of 940ish guys for $$ and complaining that the draw was fixed!! In the long run he is better alone than any two of us paired together. The proof was in the $$!! He had it, we didn't. Had he kept coming it probably would have been obvious to even him, but I'm not so sure.

Disc golfers aren't the sharpest tools in the elevator that didn't quite make it to the nobody home.



Along what same lines? Nice examples, but they're wayyyyy off topic. Am I talking abut payout percentage? Am I talking about meals provided by the TD that should come out of entry fees? Am I pro talking about how I don't get paired up with good partners? NOOOO. I am talking about bruce telling people they should stay in the AM division to make more $$ than pros. look at my main point, not my supporting arguments.

That being said return to the argument that even if Bruce wins every amateur tournament that he enters he has no way to get "rich". Which of course leads to the age old argument of someone "sandbagging" -- which I also don't buy. Therefore what you're saying is that the guy that "mans up" has to be stupid financially? If Bruce can make more $$ playing against weaker guys he's less manly? Seems like he's smarter -- but either way, I'll bet Bruce ain't getting rich off disc golf. If he is -- I'm coming out and franchising what he's doing. If he's just getting richer than you and this is sour grapes -- play better.

Since I'm the TD at the events where Bruce is the merch guy I'd like to add to the thread drift a little. I do the financials at our tournaments so I always feel like I'm paying Kira for the trophies, but you are right it is really the player paying Kira for the trophies. We thought about spending $30 to $50 on trophies from the trophy shop but we run the tournaments that we want to play (and we do play all of them). While we like to have a token of achievement if we manage to finish in the trophies, we thought that if we could get them for 1/3 or less than the price of the trophy shop trophies then we could have more money for the payout. In fact, our trophies are inexpensive enough that we do not deduct the cost of the trophies from the payout.

People seem to like our format so we'll keep running it. Bruce came in last place prizes in Adv Master and threw his prizes back into the prize bin. I'm ok with that. If anyone that wins at our events wants to sell his plastic on E-Bay, that's ok with me too. Why should any of us care? I have a hard time imagining that it would ever be more lucrative to sell plastic to casual players than win cash at a disc golf event...unless of course you aren't actually winning playing pro. It is tough to sell a lot of discs...it is work. It is much easier to play a couple of rounds of disc golf and take home a couple hundred bucks than to try to sell your winnings. When players are ready, they are going to move up...at least if economics has any say in it.

If the sole reason an AM doesn't go into the Open div is because he can make more money as an AM selling his winnings is just a plain coward! To promote it from a TD or "merch guy" standpoint or even worse yet as a person who is a represenative of the PDGA to the players, is morally corrupt!

I sell everything I win on Ebay. In fact, I have some up for sale now and more to follow. Thats what enables me to go and play tournaments I want as an Am. After turning Pro, I wont vend as much but will still use it for what it is: An effective tool to reach potential customers.

I still sell for { in some cases} half retail. If it goes up then so be it. I try to make deals for people to get good discs, but am not a charity. I have earned everything I have won and have the right to sell it for as much as I can get. How else can you justify spending a grand to play Am golf? I mean even when you cash, how much of that stuff do you want when its presorted? I have no use for 164g Magnets, but someone ,somewhere probably does. I dont throw Discraft and thats about all I have won. I dont throw it, but someone out there does.

If the sole reason an AM doesn't go into the Open div is because he can make more money as an AM selling his winnings is just a plain coward! To promote it from a TD or "merch guy" standpoint or even worse yet as a person who is a represenative of the PDGA to the players, is morally corrupt!



I'm not sure what the problem with that is. If a guy can make more money selling his $60 in plastic winnings for $30 cash, and that is more than he would win if he turned pro, then he's not ready to turn pro strictly from a financial perspective. I don't have a problem if people make their decisions to turn pro based solely on economics. Makes sense to me. I think some people want to pretend that our amateurs are not receiving a payout. You should get your head out of the sand and take a look around. Our amateurs are getting a payout and that payout has a real monetary value.

we do not deduct the cost of the trophies from the payout.
<font color="green"> Where does the $$ that Kira makes (and should make) come from? (no sarcasm, honest question)</font>

Bruce came in last place prizes in Adv Master and threw his prizes back into the prize bin.
<font color="green"> So he donated his prizes or traded his prizes for $$? </font>




People think I'm somehow telling bruce it's wrong for him to make $$ running a tournament (PAUL). You're obviously only reading what you want out of my posts. When did I say he's getting rich? When did I say he's winning? BUT- IF BRUCE CAN MAKE MORE $$ PLAYING AGAINST WEAKER GUYS, sure, it's smart financially, but is it fair, honest, and sportsmanlike? NOPE, IT'S WEAK. and yes, the player who mans up quicker is going to be stupid financially, because he has to donate until he improves his game. This is how a disc golfer gets more skills and more respect.

LOL...get my head out of the sand. Look, sandbagging in our sport IS a problem. It turns people away because they don't feel they have a chance. If you gotta sell your plastic just to play a tourney then you shouldn't be playing tournies. You shouldn't be discouraging people for the sake of your entertainment.

You should get your head out of the sand and take a look around. Our amateurs are getting a payout and that payout has a real monetary value.



Yea freakin right. What you mean is Bruce Brakel is getting a payout with real monetary value. Actually, I can go to Play it Again and sell my new Champ/Z plastic for $2 a pop. But I could also go find a large G-A-Y man and have him stick it in me.

Our park gives fines if they see people selling out of their trunk in the parking lot. I can get cash for Cryztal Challengers, but I think I've gotten about 5 of those this year in like 15 tournaments. I cannot transfer my plastic payout into money, hence no monetary value.

LMAO...MTL where are you, you started this mess of a thread.

It's true Am's can make a lot of money selling the winnings for cash, it's also true that most who win in the top third on a constant basis should move up to open. It's also true that most of them will move to the bottom third for most of there first year of playing in the Open division. It's also true that they will spend more money and make less. However if I hear one more AM [I'm a potty-mouth!] about not getting a big enough payout or that most of the payout goes to open players ect. ect. than they should practice more move the hell up and play with the big boys. I think the move up to open division was the best thing I did..I went from placing in the top 10 and cashing on a constant basis in most tourneys big and small to moving up to open and cashing in maybe 5 events in the past 2 years. I still think it was the best thing I did. I even played in a few open events while keeping my Am. status so new players could have a better chance of cashing. I think those players that stay at an AM level because they can win more is the poorest attitude this sport could possibly have and they ruin the game for it..if you want to stay AM because u know you'll never be good enought to play open so be it. but if you cash most events as an am. you are not that far off..just practice and take the damm plunge..nuff said.

Jay

Agreed! :D

Good post.

I agree with that post as well.

Mr Wise, good to see you're out and about again. Hope things are well for you.

Thanks for the back up..I still suck as a Pro(LOL) but have learned a whole lot more in one year as a Pro than my 3 years playing as an AM...

Jay

amateurism*
amateur*

First off I'd like to say good post. Second, eBay has nothing to do with ruining disc golf. It actually gives it more exposure if you actually researched it.

It's the greedy amateur that thinks they deserve more than they received; that's what�s ruining amateurism. Be happy with what you get and get over it. Don't blame eBay for personal issues.

I know if I won fist place, I would be happy with just that!

Well said Jayb!

AMS keep crying (not all) about how they are getting skrewed and the Open guys are tired of hearing it. Open players have paid their dues why not you?


Split the PDGA to just that the PROfessional Disc Golf Assoc. and make an Amatuer Disc Golf Assoc. Have the AMS run their Org and have Pros run theirs! Something doesn't seem right about Ams running a Proffessional orginization...

Jay -- what you're saying is every am that is in the top third will end up competing with the open pros if they practice. I disagree. There's a whole bunch of guys that don't have anywhere near the talent to compete with open pros but could consistently do well against amateurs. There's herds of them wandering the disc golf courses around here -- several on this message board if they'd like to embarass themselves and raise their hands. This argument goes back for years on this message board. Sounds good on paper but it's silly -- what you're arguing for is an honor system for how good you are but it doesn't matter if you're only good enough to be a good amateur we don't believe you. It's dumb because there's no consequence for the evil "bagger" except ridicule from the morally superior. So you're allowed to tell him to play better but he can't tell the whiners that he just beat to play better? He can't rely on the competitive organization to shield him from ridicule? He didn't break any rules -- he just won. You're talking about mob rule. You think you're moving up was the best thing you did -- good for you. You're allowed to think what you want but the guy who stays an amateur all his life and wins 70% of the time isn't allowed to think that that's the best thing for him? The logis is flawed because the system is flawed because there's not a true measuring stick -- that would be money. What if there was a non-sanctioned event that said they were awarding a million dollars to the top amateur. Ken Climo shows up and signs up as an am. You win MPO and get $175. Climo wins the million by like 50 throws. He didn't break any rules -- he was an amateur as far as the tournament delineated. If disc golfers played for money this would sort itself out -- they don't. The money that disc play for really only amounts to how to keep score. I understand the 10 grand or whatever the USDGC winner gets is borderline money -- but I promise if you give me that same guy for the same amount of hours he put into disc golf I can find a place where he could have made more. Disc golf is an exhibition. Yay!! Throw the disc.

That would be nice to see two associations. Then again we want the PDGA to stay alive and excuding the majority (ams) out of the group would only be it's downfall. It's just the way it is for now. Hopefully in the future we will see that happen.

I should have been more clear, my fault. It should go to the Disc Golf Assoc. or whatever name you want to tag it with 2 parts to it the DGA or whatever, takes in all the money for both. Pros run theirs and ams run theirs.

Hey Paul I agree with you 100% that some of the Ams that win as an Am. will never compete on the Open level. or will they???? how are they going to ever know? they won't unless they make the effort to try on the level..the beauty of the system is you can go back down!!! Also I have played tournaments across the country and every single tournament I have been in and I know I'm not the only one saying this has had atl east one Adv. player that has done well enough to cash or come very close to cashing in the open division and a few others that were not that far off.. I don't play Open for the money, I didn't play Am for the prizes. compedetive sports are played for the competition..as I played Adv. my second year the competition was less and less so I moved up..now I struggle with cashing anything but when I do I'm not happy because I won some money I'm happy because I had a good tournament and beat some good players to get there. If I took 10th in a B tier and beat 8 open players I would be more satisfied than if I won an A tier as an Am. and beat 75 ams...And what the hell does the Climo thing have to do with moving up to pro??

Jay

Jeff, what will having two associations accomplish? As long as financial incentives are given to ams, many will remain ams. It only makes sense.

As pointed out earlier here, neither being an am or a pro disc golfer is very appealing financially, but if I can work 15 hours a week and get $60 in return, why on earth would I work 40 hours to get $30 in return?

Because basically I'm being selfish in my feelings about ams crying about getting skrewed. Don't get me wrong I love playing DG with ams out on the course it gives me a chance to pass along throwing techniques I have payed alot of tourney and skins money to learn. I love doing it and helping the players grow. I don't see very many PRO/AM tourneys in sports like we have in DG it seems to be getting a little more mucked up every year.

Hey Paul I agree with you 100% that some of the Ams that win as an Am. will never compete on the Open level. or will they???? how are they going to ever know? they won't unless they make the effort to try on the level..the beauty of the system is you can go back down!!!
Jay



What if they don't ever move up? Ridicule?

How long do they have to lose before they can move back down and win again without ridicule?

A guy plays open for 3 years and finishes out of the cash by one throw in 30 straight tournaments. Then he moves down and wins 100 straight amateur tournaments. Does he have to move back up again? Who says so?

The "system" doesn't have any teeth -- it's not a bad thing, it's just not really a system. It's an exhibition. It's OK - because we're among friends.

Climo was just an extreme example. If the system was set up to play for money then everyone would end up playing against who they should. You wouldn't have played pro in that tournament -- would you?

Think of most non-USA professional soccer leagues where if your team does well you move up, if it does badly the system kicks them back down. They're playing for money. Money works.

Amateur/professional systems can work -- like bridge master points. Amateurs play for years accumulating points -- just like the money. They compete and eventually can make master status and beyond if they're good enough -- if not they don't make it. The system has teeth.

If Bruce can make more $$ playing against weaker guys he's less manly? Seems like he's smarter



Let me guess, you're one of those Am for life guys huh?

Pretty sad that you would rather play against people worse than you just to win more stuff instead of playing against people of YOUR skill level and having fun competing.

That's just plain greedy and dumb IMO.

No. Wrong guess. Find that guy (or girl) that would rather play against people worse than them and win stuff. I know of one. He wins most of the time. Who cares? He's still living in the basement. In the overall scheme of things -- do you really care? Big deal -- he's got 20 discs. Have a nice day, see you next weekend.

I know lots more guys that blindly walk into the open division where they have no hope. Check the results -- I'm betting I can find 10 open players that ain't won diddly this year long before you find 2 amateurs that win 90% of the time. I know loads of them.

The logic is silly.

You get to decide who someone should play against on their recreation time? Why do you care?

I think the biggest problem I have is playing in a local b tier event and having 7 open players, and 45 adv. players and 30 int. players. I have almost been turned away from tournaments that were full because I didn't pre-reg yet they only had 10 open players and over 50 Am. players and I showed up late becasue of a 3 hour drive and had to get on the wait list. I think every year more players start this sport and build on this sport..because it takes Am. players to make our sport grow..however it's growing but the number of open players stays the same..or maybe the number grows but less open players come out to tournaments. I wasn't in this sport in the late 80's or early 90's but those big tournaments had more open players than they do now. Does anyone agree?? I just want some more competition and some new faces help this sport of pros!!! grow and it can... but right now it's not.

Jay

I think there are several reasons.

1. Players are not ready to compete in open. I have not been playing this game very long. I take it serious & think you should be a legit pro if you are playing in open. This sport is growing & becoming looked at more like a sport by the younger players. I think the days of everyone playing open are over & the younger people are starting to get it a little bit. It amazes me of some of the players who play in the open divisions that could not only play advanced but also intermediate.

2. Players compete in open, don't have fun, then quit playing competitively.

3. Entry fees are high. Who wants to donate $50.00 to $100.00 each weekend?

On topic, e-bay has nothing to do with it. Amateurism and disc golf barely know each other and have never spent much time in the same place. But if there is any movement over the past 15 years it is toward amateurism in baby steps rather than away. Here is a list of baby steps I can think of:

The addition of the Intermediate division.
The addition of the Recreational Division [in some areas, I know]
The creation of more amateur oriented majors, like USADGC, amateur divisions at USWDGC, Mid-Nationals, etc.
Mandatory player packs.
Changes in the payout charts to go deeper and flatter.
The TD optional trophy-only option.
More TDs experimenting with player pack heavy and payout-lite amateur events.
More TDs experimenting with low entry fee trophy-only tournaments.

What has been interesting is that almost every one of these changes has been resisted by the so-called amateurs, especially the advanced amateurs who really want to gamble for steep, fat prize payouts just like the open players do for cash.

Not trying to get on topic but....

Ebay is a lesson in supply and demand.

Ebay has done what no other merket ever has. It has connected virtually every seller with every buyer. It has allowed me, an average golfer to have a choice of top level equipment. Say I want a 01 CE roc... I can get one in a week on ebay, but I doubt I could find one locally in that time span. Maybe I have 5 ce rocs that I want to sell, I couldn't do it locally without selling them for less then they are worth.

Ebay allows for a view into the market conditions. I could stand outside of my local course trying to sell that Roc for $100 for a month and might not sell it, but Ebay let's me get as much as that market is willing to pay without leaving my house.

IMO Ebay is a lesson in capitalism. The market drives the prices. Competition is key with both sellers and buyers. The market sets the prices.

To echo what cevalkyrie is saying, I don't believe you can make much more than the cost of the tournament (in most cases) by reselling plastic. Once you figure in gas money, hotels, entrance fees, time spent practicing, money invested in plastic and bags, etc. etc. For most people you are barely talking a break even venture.



check the payouts for the pro divisions, and you'll see that even being a "professional" disc golfer is hardly a break even venture.

ams play for the ego, pro's play for the love.

ams play for the ego, pro's play for the love.

I remember once platying adv. and really actually complaining about payout's..I look back I really wonder what I was thinking...I have a full time job and admit I will never come close to the touring pro players..but actually being able to play with some of them, even if it is only for one round is all I need. I love this sport. I cash every once in awhile, I when I do it's usually the same or just above what I put into the tourney..who really cares..gas money?? food?? bags?? discs??
.......car pool.. bring own food...use a garbage bag...don't loose your discs...

Jay

I'm an Am player, Probably for life. I am not playing against weaker players every week to gain plastic, I am normally rated less than others in my division. I cash about half the time, When I don't cash, I might be battling for DFL.

It's more a problem with consistency and time to practice than a desire that keeps me playing at an Am level. When I retire and have time to spend several days a week on the course, I might consider going Pro, but until then I will continue to be an Am.

09-17-05
Bevier Park

www.brasscash.com (http://www.brasscash.com)

TROPHY ONLY FOR AMS

IOS#6 THE DISContinuum Blast is right around the corner. Please Pre-register for this event. I'm trying to get 22 holes set up so we have a max capacity of 110 players. I'd hate to see anyone not be able to play. We've had over 117 players at every event except IOS #1. We had 101 & it was cold & snowing.

Don't let the D-Tier scare you away. It's the same as a C-Tier. You will get to play for PDGA points and rating. The only difference for a C & D Tier is the amount the TD has to pay the PDGA.

The ace pool will start around $120.00

For the pros they will pay the normal $45.00 entry fee & has a normal IOS pro payout. We hold your money and give it back to you, less PDGA $2 fees.

On the amateur side it is a $10.00 entry fee, trophies and CTPs only, no-payout event. For every amateur who plays we will put $10 in value in CTPs on the course. "CTPs" include longest putts, longest drives, etc. We are experimenting to see if the players are interested in the concept. It will be a fun cheap day of at least 40 holes of disc golf. The pros will be there on the same day so you will get to see them play the safari. Chris Heeren is a 2 time defending champion.

Let me make sure I understand this. The problem isn't that amateurs win stuff that's worth money. It isn't even that amateurs sell the stuff that's worth money. The suggested problem is that amateurs are selling stuff that's worth money a specific way online and somehow that specific way is what's ruining amateur disc golf?

IOS#6 THE DISContinuum Blast is right around the corner. Please Pre-register for this event. I'm trying to get 22 holes set up so we have a max capacity of 110 players. I'd hate to see anyone not be able to play. We've had over 117 players at every event except IOS #1. We had 101 & it was cold & snowing.

Don't let the D-Tier scare you away. It's the same as a C-Tier. You will get to play for PDGA points and rating. The only difference for a C & D Tier is the amount the TD has to pay the PDGA.




Sorry to get off topic, but when a local TD decided to sanction his event at D-tier level this year, he was told by the PDGA that next year it would either be C-Tier, X-Tier or not sanctioned because it had too many people and was too well established of a tournament to be a D-Tier. The event always fills at 90 people. But, in Illinois they are allowed to run 100+ people events at D-tier?

It is off-topic, and I think the PDGA has revised the wording of the D-Tier requirements in the tour standards document, but maybe they haven't. I remember it being set-up for new events or events that have missed a year or two. As it is currently worded, the only retriction is that each course can only have one a year. The purpose statement is still there, and using the D-Tier sanctioning for a continuing event that is not held in "new or "lost" disc golf communities" does go against the stated purpose for that level of sanctioning.

However, it should be restricted consistently if it is restricted at all.

Well we do what we like in Illinois..(LOL) and you didn't get off the topic in got changed when the tourney flyer appeared on it..

to get back on the subject of Ebay..I personally feel of someone wants to sell a disc here, more power to him/her. The prices a driven up buy the guy on the other end that has to have his 173 g 2nd run flat top CE Valk and is willing to pay 94$ for the darn thing..I admit I love ce plastic and throw mostly expensive discs ..however I got the plastic when they sold for 12 to 15 dollars and got stacks of it..some day I will run out and move on but I could never spend 90$..
Jay

IOS#6 THE DISContinuum Blast is right around the corner. Please Pre-register for this event. I'm trying to get 22 holes set up so we have a max capacity of 110 players. I'd hate to see anyone not be able to play. We've had over 117 players at every event except IOS #1. We had 101 & it was cold & snowing.

Don't let the D-Tier scare you away. It's the same as a C-Tier. You will get to play for PDGA points and rating. The only difference for a C & D Tier is the amount the TD has to pay the PDGA.




Sorry to get off topic, but when a local TD decided to sanction his event at D-tier level this year, he was told by the PDGA that next year it would either be C-Tier, X-Tier or not sanctioned because it had too many people and was too well established of a tournament to be a D-Tier. The event always fills at 90 people. But, in Illinois they are allowed to run 100+ people events at D-tier?



I believe the PDGA allows events to sanction as D-tiers if the course has never hosted an event before or past events have had small turn outs. I don't think Brett said that events at this particular course have drawn 100+ people, just events in the IOS series. The PDGA wouldn't deny D-tier status because other events at other courses within the same series had big turnouts. But if they do draw 100+, I doubt the PDGA will allow them to run it as a D-tier next year.

--Josh

I think they sanctioned it as a D-tier because we paid them $700 in fees for the IOS #4 B-tier! :D

No, the Blast has never drawn more than 50 or 60 players and we are running it as a trophy-and CTPs-only. It meets the established criteria of being the first sanctioned tournament this year at the course and it is also a developmental concept.

And I slipped Dave Gentry a 20. :D j/k

But thanks for pimping it for us!

Sorry-last bit off topic....The PDGA is lost in this part of Idaho! That is why it is frustrating to see something like that. Although people play a lot of golf around here, they tend not to play in tournies and there are not too many people anxious to TD. At any rate...

Yeah, I totally disagree that EBay is ruining disc golf and amatuerism. EBay exists only to make money. EBay makes tremendous amounts of money off of people who set unreasonable value on certain items. I don't think sellers are necessarily making money hand over fist.

You always hear of people making a living off of EBay, but for some reason, I highly doubt they are disc golfers. I also imagine most of EBay has moved to smaller time sellers that are just trying to pawn off their crap on other people.

But, lets take a recent example of payouts....At a local one day tournament held at a ski resort, the winner of the pro division got paid around $360. He had to drive 6 hours to the tournament, stay 2 nights at the ski resort lodge, and somehow afford the high tourist priced food in the area. I think he also won a cat-ski trip in the Ring of Fire, but that is an aside.

The winner of the Advanced division (of which everyone else participated) received about $80 retail worth of plastic, a plaque, and assorted gift certificates worth around $100. Assuming he only sold the plastic on Ebay, he would've stood to make maybe $60 after fees, paypal, shipping, etc...I think the idea of making money on EBay from tournaments is somewhat far fetched.

I do believe baggin does occur. I don't think Ebay is to blame though. I think overblown egos and a lack of motivation are to blame. Is it better to win a bunch of plastic and first place, or barely make cash in Pro? Depending on your personality and ego, you are going to answer that question differently.

If bagging bothers you, give them the good natured ribs they all deserve. 9 times out of ten the top Advanced player around here would've made more off of playing Pro than selling their Advanced winnings at retail.

ams play for the ego, pro's play for the love.


Nice Paradox. :)
My take is: The Pros make a bigger commitment to our sport; that statement works regardless of the $$/amour aspect. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

ams play for the ego, pro's play for the love.

I have given pros opportunities to play sanctioned tournaments for love. $5 entry fee for points, ratings, trophy-only. They stay home in droves for that concept on a most excellent course. Pros play for money. It may be a sucker bet for most of them, but don't kid yourself about love.

Man, you take a day off and Bruce ruins disc golf. O.K., maybe I should go read the whole thread. (Yawn)

This discussion reminds me of politics. We keep hearing about how the latest travesty by the other side is going to ruin the country. Let me make a prediction, E-bay inclusive disc golf will be fine.

ams play for the ego, pro's play for the love.

I have given pros opportunities to play sanctioned tournaments for love. $5 entry fee for points, ratings, trophy-only. They stay home in droves for that concept on a most excellent course. Pros play for money. It may be a sucker bet for most of them, but don't kid yourself about love.



It's a sucker bet for way more than most but money works.

Man, you take a day off and Bruce ruins disc golf. O.K., maybe I should go read the whole thread. (Yawn)

This discussion reminds me of politics. We keep hearing about how the latest travesty by the other side is going to ruin the country. Let me make a prediction, E-bay inclusive disc golf will be fine.

Yeah, cuz right as soon as Al Gore finished inventing the Internet I invented it's #1 killer app: e-bay. So its all my fault. :D

I have given pros opportunities to play sanctioned tournaments for love. $5 entry fee for points, ratings, trophy-only. They stay home in droves for that concept on a most excellent course. Pros play for money. It may be a sucker bet for most of them, but don't kid yourself about love.



maybe they just dont' want to play in your tournament? ever think of that? also what most excellent course?? in peoria??

Jay

No, I had plenty of pros come to Flip City, Cass Benton and Kensington for various opportunities to play for each others cash. Only one came to the trophy-only at Cass and he was not aware that it was a trophy-only. He saw it on pdga.com and just showed up.

He stuck around because the trophy was cool and because he is cool. Pros mostly are just guys who would rather gamble on their discing skills than on the random luck of dice or cards, especially if the house is adding money to the pot. Take away the pot entirely and see how many pros you draw.

Man, you take a day off and Bruce ruins disc golf. O.K., maybe I should go read the whole thread. (Yawn)

This discussion reminds me of politics. We keep hearing about how the latest travesty by the other side is going to ruin the country. Let me make a prediction, E-bay inclusive disc golf will be fine.

Yeah, cuz right as soon as Al Gore finished inventing the Internet I invented it's #1 killer app: e-bay. So its all my fault. :D



At least you're getting rich... right?

I sell everything I win. Everything. Automatically and with no effort whatsoever. I never even know what I won before I sell it. My system? I'm the merch guy. I just leave my prizes in the bins!

If you don't want to make less by going pro, DON'T GO PRO. The way disc golf is currently I don't see why anyone would go pro until they were good enough to cash at the big tournaments. There is no money in this game. If those Am Worlds top finishers can stay amateur into their 970s and 980s, you can certainly stay amateur in your 950s and 960s.

See thats Bullsh*t! If you have a pro rating, you play pro, staying ameture is for weak players with no confidence. go pro and let people know your name, because staying amature will never get you respect as a golfer.

Another player who thinks there is a difference between amateur and pro... ;)

There's been an enormous amount of thread drift here.

I'd like to address the original topic (what a thought).....anyone remember what it was......

....yeah...whether or not eBay is ruining disc golf and amateurism.

No eBay is not to blame. eBay is a fantastic resource we have at our disposal as buyers and sellers and plain ol' nosy researchers and window shoppers.

The problem has more to do with top heavy, big payouts that provide incentive for those 940-970 golfers to become career amateurs where their payout is secure.

Sure eBay makes a nice convenient and fairly anonymous way of turning unneeded merchandise into liquid ca$h, but to remedy the situation you treat ams like ams.

Yes, I'm talking low entry fees and flat payouts. $15 entry fee. Every participant gets a disc (meaning one ) and the first place finisher gets an attractive plaque, etched glass, engraved cup, trophy, beer stein or whatever other spoil ya wanna put up.

No matter where you finish this ain't paying for gas, hotel stays, new UnderArmor gear, Merrel footwear or a steak dinner at the Longhorn.

You play for fun and to satisfy your competitive outlet and maybe just an excuse to travel to a new course and get away from the old lady for a weekend.

If low entry fees and modest prizes aren't fulfilling enough for you then you open the wallet a little wider, you wager the $40, $70 and $100 entry fees to play pro and if you sink enough putts you may collect your share of the sponsored added cash and maybe the entry fees of a few rivals you trash talked here on the msg board the previous week.

Unfortunately as long as we continue to treat the amateur class like we do the pro divisions with top heavy staggered payouts (only with different currency), we will continue to blur the lines between pros and ams and provide more fodder for these debates.

Nice non-drift Steve.

Name 2 of these super baggers. I went back through your last 20 PDGA tournaments and found 2 guys rated 950+ that are still playing advanced. Bet you can't find them -- one of them's actually attempting to pull off exactly what you're talking it's just not working very well for him.

Financially it doesn't make a lot of difference unless you're a 1000+ rated guy that doesn't travel much, then you should definitely play open.

Wow, I'm flattered that my post spurred you to do such research.

Attn: THREAD DRIFT ALERT

Honestly, this is not a high priority topic with me. I just decided to chime in because the cause and effect appears to be rather obvious to me. Sandbaggers generally have to endure a lot of ribbing, especially in my area, so many do move up. However while it (sandbagging) may not be a huge in the MADC area, our (sport's) competitive structure does lend itself well to encouraging it.

If I infer your (and others') argument correctly, you point to 935-950 rated ams as playing where they should and no need to change our payouts.
However, when you have am players that are playing at that 935-950 level for several years, I can't help but think they've stopped progressing in their games because they're quite comfortable where they're at.
If you are a 940 am you probably finish 1,2 or 3 in advanced without doing anything special. You're most likely going to get twice your entry fee back in merch.
Now compare that with a 950 mpo. The 950 MPO player has to shoot well just to grab a share for last place cash at most events and has little if any chance of completing a top five finish in all but the most lowly events.
So why should the 940 am strive to improve? You think he's jealous of the 950-960 pro who finishes out of the cash more times than in it?

The problem with that logic is that we are not running our tournaments in a vacuum. Amateurs (especially advanced ams) have proven over and over that they prefer the current low stakes gambling aspect of our current prize formats. If the PDGA makes changes that are too drastic those players will opt to play unsanctioned prize oriented tournaments.

The other problem is the merchastravaganza system still drives the economics of the current disc golf scheme.

The other problem is the merchastravaganza system still drives the economics of the current disc golf scheme.

I drive the merch van and the merchextravaganza puts gas in the van!

The other problem with that logic is 940 is as good as it gets for some people. I know 940 guys that practice/play butt loads. They've reached their summit.

Especially guys that are distance challenged. Please don't tell me about all the latest drivers -- if you're throwing a [insert this months driver of choice] and the other guys are throwing a midrange disc or a putter -- they're going to beat your brains in. Most of them end up playing in the open division because they drink the kool aid that tells them they'll get better if they play open or want to "man up" because they want to fit in.

What they get to do is wander around in the last group and fight not to be DFL.

What's even more pathetic is after this average guy has a career tournament and gets last place cash he then spends a year mentioning that tournament. It's OK to emphasize your successes -- but a little perspective is needed with many. "When I cashed at blah blah blah, I did blah blah blah. I just wasn't doing that in this tourney . .. " Of course, you want to respond -- "Uh, dude -- you been 20 throws out of the cash in the last 10 tournaments . . . .I'm pretty confident you're just not good enough." (No -- I don't say that, unless he's a friend.)

No worries -- throw the disc. Leave the poor guy alone.

There's nothing wrong with my logic.

There may be a certain percentage of players who top out at 940.
However if ams were given truly flat modest payouts, I suspect many 940 golfers who had played at that level for years could become 980 golfers within a year or two of turning pro. But with $40 am entry fees and fat, top heavy payouts many are quite comfortable with 940 status.

By the way, distance is the most overated aspect of disc golf. I'm not saying it's not a factor, as it is no doubt an advantage to be able to throw farther. However, the short game,specificly putting, coupled with course management are far more important to consistent scoring than distance.

This is micro-economics. It has no effect on "amateurism" within disc golf, unless you mean the professionals that play for prizes easily converted to cash rather than cash itself.

Disc golf does not have a classification for organized amateur play. Only for varying divisions of ambiguously protected professional classes.

That certain organizers fully finance, and therefore tend to direct their efforts towards and defend, their operations via these protected pro divisions that pay out in prizes is understandable.

That it is "good" or "advisable" for a young and emerging sport is not as understandable or clear cut. Excellent for building a "gambler" membership base, not so hot for building a "what can I do for the sport" membership base.

The problem with that logic is that we are not running our tournaments in a vacuum. Amateurs (especially advanced ams) have proven over and over that they prefer the current low stakes gambling aspect of our current prize formats. If the PDGA makes changes that are too drastic those players will opt to play unsanctioned prize oriented tournaments.




Uggghh. This drives me crazy. Steve nailed it down. It's obviously screwed when the system is set up to financially reward mediocrity. Your rebuttal amounts to "But most people are mediocre and will be turned off and leave the PDGA if you don't reward their mediocrity."

This is a competitive system for crissakes.

Also, the PDGA should start to realize that their clever strategy of creating a nation of merch addicts isn't working anyway. So, we have a morally corrupt system that doesn't work. Now, might that be some actual cause and effect?

Excellent for building a limited "gambler" membership base, not so hot for building a "what can I do for the sport" membership base.

You're logic is wrong because you're deciding where the other guy should play. Leave him alone -- it's his business.

I presented this before -- he wins 10 amateur tournaments in a row and then plays open. He finishes one throw out of the money for 20 tournaments. He moves back to amateur -- he wins 10 tournaments . . . does he have to move back up? When is enough enough? The system at this point isn't a system. It's every man for himself. You get to decide where to play but he doesn't? Seems odd.

You contend "many" people will get 40pts better playing open. I contend they won't and don't. You seem to believe there's a Ken Climo in all of us -- I believe he's unique. C'est la vie.

Distance is not the most overated aspect of disc golf. I have a good arm and I don't putt well. I play on a regular basis with a golfer that's twice as good at putting as I am and has a lousy arm. I kill him every time. I'm putting 30'ers while he's taking 60'ers on a regular basis. It's not fair. I make 1/2 mine he makes one in ten from 60. I win by 5 throws.

I also play against a guy that out throws me by 50' but putts about my level. Same results -- he gets about 4 putts a round that are easy while I'm 60+ out going 10%.

Which is more important -- distance/accurracy/putting? Answer: yes.

The guy that says distance is overrated is usually the guy that throws it far without any accurracy -- my definition of distance is distance from the intended target after you've thrown it -- not distance from your hand after you've thrown it. It's like measuring a basketball player to the top of his head -- no one grabs a rebound with the top of their head, measure how high he can reach. Don't measure how far you threw it -- measure how far you have left.

Please -- distance is like an extra option. If you fall behind a guy that can't throw, you can close the gap so much easier by making a some big drives. When fall behind a guy that can out-distance you, it's very difficult to make up ground unless he makes mistakes.

If you are a 940 am you probably finish 1,2 or 3 in advanced without doing anything special. You're most likely going to get twice your entry fee back in merch.




Yeah --- seems accurate (except for maybe the "3") part, but remember, at that pay scale without factoring in any practice time he's making about $6 an hour. Yay -- everybody clap, see you next week. It's an exhibition.

You're logic is wrong because you're deciding where the other guy should play. Leave him alone -- it's his business.




Since when?

There are any host of things holding our sport back, but none, in my opinion, as much as the lack of an Amateur Class. When all players are playing for profit, where is there any room for "for the love of the game" or "to give without any concern for profit".

No organization, particularly one in early development, can afford to turn to the cannibalism of fighting over the same limited resources.

We need a crystal clear delineation between Professional and Amateur disc golf. One that fosters more than just the principle of �most winnings wins�, but where �most fun wins� is the institutional and undeniable underlying principle (not just wishful thinking).

The PDGA can be part of the solution or a bystander; seems to me that this is a perfect opportunity to provide leadership. We don�t need more whiny selfish pro divisions we need a single amateur one!

Nick -- didn't you just say basically the same thing I did?

You're still letting the guy decide to be an amateur or a professional you're changing the system -- I'm just not coming up with any alternative solution.

By not allowing the guy to decide where he should play my implication is the current mob rule mentally that decides if the guy wins a frisbee he has to now play in the open division for the rest of his life.

You're logic is wrong because you're deciding where the other guy should play. Leave him alone -- it's his business. <font color="orange"> I agree with this. Let people play advanced forever if they want to. You cant force someone to turn pro and that person may be a person who will always be a GREAT amateur player but just cant find the game to become even a decent pro. </font>

I presented this before -- he wins 10 amateur tournaments in a row and then plays open. He finishes one throw out of the money for 20 tournaments. He moves back to amateur -- he wins 10 tournaments . . . does he have to move back up? When is enough enough? The system at this point isn't a system. It's every man for himself. You get to decide where to play but he doesn't? Seems odd. <font color="orange"> I think if you move up and have excepted cash you shouldnt be able to move down PERIOD (unless you apply for am status back and are granted that because you really started to SUCK again) </font>

You contend "many" people will get 40pts better playing open. I contend they won't and don't. You seem to believe there's a Ken Climo in all of us -- I believe he's unique. C'est la vie. <font color="orange"> I think EVERYONE will get 20 points better but that just because of the ratings system rating pros higher then ams. I dont think that ALL the guys who are good in advanced have the skills to move up and become good pros. Some just dont have the skill or dont have the drive and commitment to make it on the top level. I say let them stay AM if they want to. </font>

Distance is not the most overated aspect of disc golf. I have a good arm and I don't putt well. I play on a regular basis with a golfer that's twice as good at putting as I am and has a lousy arm. I kill him every time. I'm putting 30'ers while he's taking 60'ers on a regular basis. It's not fair. I make 1/2 mine he makes one in ten from 60. I win by 5 throws. <font color="orange"> I think you have a messed up view of whos a better putter. He is not a better putter because he makes 10% of his 60 footers. You are a better putter because you make 50% of your 30 footers. You dont beat him because you throw farther you beat him because your a better putter and an all around better player. </font>

I also play against a guy that out throws me by 50' but putts about my level. Same results -- he gets about 4 putts a round that are easy while I'm 60+ out going 10%. <font color="orange"> This makes absolutely not scence. Are you still playing the same course and if you are why all the sudden are your 30 footers turning into 60 footers??? That makes no scence </font>

Which is more important -- distance/accurracy/putting? Answer: yes. <font color="orange"> This makes no scence either. They are ALL important and the fact of the matter is that Distance doesnt mean CHIT if you cant hit the putt and putting doesnt mean CHIT if you cant park the hole. </font>

The guy that says distance is overrated is usually the guy that throws it far without any accurracy -- my definition of distance is distance from the intended target after you've thrown it -- not distance from your hand after you've thrown it. It's like measuring a basketball player to the top of his head -- no one grabs a rebound with the top of their head, measure how high he can reach. Don't measure how far you threw it -- measure how far you have left. <font color="orange"> Im not going to even respond to this </font>

Please -- distance is like an extra option. If you fall behind a guy that can't throw, you can close the gap so much easier by making a some big drives. <font color="orange"> Not true. Big drives dont make up stokes. Big drives and clutch putts make up strokes. </font> When fall behind a guy that can out-distance you, it's very difficult to make up ground unless he makes mistakes. <font color="orange"> This is also incorrect. Just because he can throw far doesnt mean you cant make up strokes on him. Throwing far only gives you easier putts and upshots but if you cant make those you might as well throw 300 make an upshot and then putt instead of lookin like an chump by parkin 450 ft holes and doinking 25 footers. </font>

Well I get to voice my opinion and I know the last poster is NOT going to like it .
I agree with him that we do NEED a true AM class of players and his definitions that have been documented in other threads have been OK with me .
I also agree we are ALL ( from even intermediate divisions thru adv am divisions AND INCLUDING MOST IMPORTANTLY MASTER DIVISION ) playing in a protected divisions .
THERE are so many players in the masters division that can NOT only compete but CASH in the open division but they choose to hide out .
I have said it many times I agree with the fact that there are some adv ams who hide out and collect BOOTY and resell it and profit who could compete and cash on the lower end of the open scale HOWEVER THERE are MANY MASTERS with player ratings and capabilities to CASH in the OPEN MARKET OVER AND OVER AND OVER .

LET me see those MASTERS stop hiding out and then they have every right to blast the adv who hide out .
UNtil then ..... the beat goes on .

This is a competitive system for crissakes.






This IS a competitive system and needs to be ran as such! I didn't start playing tournaments for the love of the game, I already fell in love with the game. I got into competitive DG to compete to learn the game better to excel in it as far as I could. I have always been an athlete and will always will be. Ebay isn't ruining amatuerism, ams are ruining amatuerism!

Set the competitive aspect of our sport to just that. The PDGA has a ratings system that isn't used effectively. If a player gets to a certain rating then they should be forced to play against others at their skill level. Like the Pro2 div., mainly people don't play it becuse of their pride or there is nobody in it. Take the choice out then you will have a "semi pro" farm system!

If a guy wants to stay an AM all his life that's fine, if he works alot to take care of his family and doesn't have time to practice that is totally cool, but if that same guy gets better, he shouldn't play down just for his convenience or so he can justify to his wife why he spent 45 bucks on a lousy tournament by bringing home some plastic or whatever he might get.

I have to also say this since it might be brought up .
I am a 39 year old player adv player with a 923 rating ( up from 900 4 years ago ) and have been practicing and playing as much as I can ( which thankfully is alot )
I have noticed as I get older that it is JUST a little more difficult to play up to my level for 2 whole rounds then it was a year or 2 ago .
I realize players go thru as they get older the lack of ability to bounce right back and play again . BUT in the same token ,
The master that can compete in open should be playing open just as the adv who can compete in open ( ALL OF THIS BASED UPON RATINGS ) should be playing in OPEN .
THE ONLY EXCEPTION to that would be we get a true am division where if he/she choses to play strickly for the love of the game and NOT FOR PROFIT , then that person NO matter how good they are can play just for fun .

You're logic is wrong because you're deciding where the other guy should play. Leave him alone -- it's his business.

<font color="blue"> You're misinterpreting my posts. I'm not telling anyone which division they should play. I am fine with career amateurs. What I'm saying is amateurs should be paid in a flat modest payout. Our sport is not big enough to support multiple pro-style (waging) competitive structures. Players do have every right to play in a protected division for as long as they choose, we just shouldn't be paying in merchandise (plastic currency) at three and four times their entry fees.</font>

I presented this before -- he wins 10 amateur tournaments in a row and then plays open. He finishes one throw out of the money for 20 tournaments. He moves back to amateur -- he wins 10 tournaments . . . does he have to move back up? When is enough enough? The system at this point isn't a system. It's every man for himself. You get to decide where to play but he doesn't? Seems odd.

<font color="blue"> Sure, in that instance he goes back to am, he pays his $10-15 entry fee and gets $10-15 worth of merch and maybe a trophy if he wins the event. I'm just opposed to him or anyone awarded $100 worth of merchandise for an amateur performance.</font>

You contend "many" people will get 40pts better playing open. I contend they won't and don't. You seem to believe there's a Ken Climo in all of us -- I believe he's unique. C'est la vie.

<font color="blue"> You're exaggerating. I didn't imply you will automaticly gain 40 pts in rating ability by entering the pro field. Many have the potential but as it stands now, there's little incentive.</font>

Distance is not the most overated aspect of disc golf. I have a good arm and I don't putt well. I play on a regular basis with a golfer that's twice as good at putting as I am and has a lousy arm. I kill him every time. I'm putting 30'ers while he's taking 60'ers on a regular basis. It's not fair. I make 1/2 mine he makes one in ten from 60. I win by 5 throws.

I also play against a guy that out throws me by 50' but putts about my level. Same results -- he gets about 4 putts a round that are easy while I'm 60+ out going 10%.

Which is more important -- distance/accurracy/putting? Answer: yes.

The guy that says distance is overrated is usually the guy that throws it far without any accurracy -- my definition of distance is distance from the intended target after you've thrown it -- not distance from your hand after you've thrown it. It's like measuring a basketball player to the top of his head -- no one grabs a rebound with the top of their head, measure how high he can reach. Don't measure how far you threw it -- measure how far you have left.

<font color="blue"> Your anecdotal evidence is your opinion/observation but certainly not proof.
In my 18 yrs of playing competitive disc golf I've been the weenie arm of the group most of the time. Sure on some courses this makes it harder to cash, but on most courses I've played (80+in 16 states) it makes little difference. The vast majority of pros that I beat in a tournament outdrive me (distance wise) by a significant margin.</font>

Please -- distance is like an extra option. If you fall behind a guy that can't throw, you can close the gap so much easier by making a some big drives. When fall behind a guy that can out-distance you, it's very difficult to make up ground unless he makes mistakes.

You're logic is wrong because you're deciding where the other guy should play. Leave him alone -- it's his business. <font color="orange"> I agree with this. Let people play advanced forever if they want to. You cant force someone to turn pro and that person may be a person who will always be a GREAT amateur player but just cant find the game to become even a decent pro. </font>

I presented this before -- he wins 10 amateur tournaments in a row and then plays open. He finishes one throw out of the money for 20 tournaments. He moves back to amateur -- he wins 10 tournaments . . . does he have to move back up? When is enough enough? The system at this point isn't a system. It's every man for himself. You get to decide where to play but he doesn't? Seems odd. <font color="orange"> I think if you move up and have excepted cash you shouldnt be able to move down PERIOD (unless you apply for am status back and are granted that because you really started to SUCK again) </font>
<font color="red">I said "one throw out of the cash" He never received a cash prize.</font>

You contend "many" people will get 40pts better playing open. I contend they won't and don't. You seem to believe there's a Ken Climo in all of us -- I believe he's unique. C'est la vie. <font color="orange"> I think EVERYONE will get 20 points better but that just because of the ratings system rating pros higher then ams. I dont think that ALL the guys who are good in advanced have the skills to move up and become good pros. Some just dont have the skill or dont have the drive and commitment to make it on the top level. I say let them stay AM if they want to. </font>

Distance is not the most overated aspect of disc golf. I have a good arm and I don't putt well. I play on a regular basis with a golfer that's twice as good at putting as I am and has a lousy arm. I kill him every time. I'm putting 30'ers while he's taking 60'ers on a regular basis. It's not fair. I make 1/2 mine he makes one in ten from 60. I win by 5 throws. <font color="orange"> I think you have a messed up view of whos a better putter. He is not a better putter because he makes 10% of his 60 footers. You are a better putter because you make 50% of your 30 footers. You dont beat him because you throw farther you beat him because your a better putter and an all around better player. </font><font color="red">No -- I didn't mess it up. I'm better at 30'ers than he is at 60'ers. If he were even with me and getting as many chances at 30'ers as I was -- he wins easily.</font>

I also play against a guy that out throws me by 50' but putts about my level. Same results -- he gets about 4 putts a round that are easy while I'm 60+ out going 10%. <font color="orange"> This makes absolutely not scence. Are you still playing the same course and if you are why all the sudden are your 30 footers turning into 60 footers??? That makes no scence </font> <font color="red"> It's "sense" and it's the same course, different baskets.</font>

Which is more important -- distance/accurracy/putting? Answer: yes. <font color="orange"> This makes no scence either. They are ALL important and the fact of the matter is that Distance doesnt mean CHIT if you cant hit the putt and putting doesnt mean CHIT if you cant park the hole. </font> <font color="red"> You've just said in long hand by what I meant by "yes". Read it again -- it's kind of a joke. And it's still "sense". </font>

The guy that says distance is overrated is usually the guy that throws it far without any accurracy -- my definition of distance is distance from the intended target after you've thrown it -- not distance from your hand after you've thrown it. It's like measuring a basketball player to the top of his head -- no one grabs a rebound with the top of their head, measure how high he can reach. Don't measure how far you threw it -- measure how far you have left. <font color="orange"> Im not going to even respond to this </font>

Please -- distance is like an extra option. If you fall behind a guy that can't throw, you can close the gap so much easier by making a some big drives. <font color="orange"> Not true. Big drives dont make up stokes. Big drives and clutch putts make up strokes. </font> <font color="red"> The putt ain't clutch if the drive's big enough. ("big" being close.) </font> When fall behind a guy that can out-distance you, it's very difficult to make up ground unless he makes mistakes. <font color="orange"> This is also incorrect. Just because he can throw far doesnt mean you cant make up strokes on him. Throwing far only gives you easier putts and upshots but if you cant make those you might as well throw 300 make an upshot and then putt instead of lookin like an chump by parkin 450 ft holes and doinking 25 footers. </font> <font color="red"> Uh -- how about if on my big drives that are parked they get to be 6" away since we're just what iffing here!! </font>

Thank you Mr. Brakel for this "merchastravaganza"

I always enjoy people making up words. Especially silly, fun ones like that. And, no misspelling words like sense is not making up new words. Merchastravaganza....it just rolls off my tongue. Beautimous!!!

You're logic is wrong because you're deciding where the other guy should play. Leave him alone -- it's his business.

<font color="blue"> You're misinterpreting my posts. I'm not telling anyone which division they should play. I am fine with career amateurs. What I'm saying is amateurs should be paid in a flat modest payout. Our sport is not big enough to support multiple pro-style (waging) competitive structures. Players do have every right to play in a protected division for as long as they choose, we just shouldn't be paying in merchandise (plastic currency) at three and four times their entry fees.</font>

I presented this before -- he wins 10 amateur tournaments in a row and then plays open. He finishes one throw out of the money for 20 tournaments. He moves back to amateur -- he wins 10 tournaments . . . does he have to move back up? When is enough enough? The system at this point isn't a system. It's every man for himself. You get to decide where to play but he doesn't? Seems odd.

<font color="blue"> Sure, in that instance he goes back to am, he pays his $10-15 entry fee and gets $10-15 worth of merch and maybe a trophy if he wins the event. I'm just opposed to him or anyone awarded $100 worth of merchandise for an amateur performance.</font>

<font color="red"> That choice doesn't exist -- as you know. He gets to go to back to am and get heckled and ostracized. C'est la vie. </font>

You contend "many" people will get 40pts better playing open. I contend they won't and don't. You seem to believe there's a Ken Climo in all of us -- I believe he's unique. C'est la vie.

<font color="blue"> You're exaggerating. I didn't imply you will automaticly gain 40 pts in rating ability by entering the pro field. Many have the potential but as it stands now, there's little incentive.</font>


<font color="red"> Sorry to have exaggerated, I took it from your post yesterday, you typed:
"However if ams were given truly flat modest payouts, I suspect many 940 golfers who had played at that level for years could become 980 golfers within a year or two of turning pro."

??

</font>

Distance is not the most overated aspect of disc golf. I have a good arm and I don't putt well. I play on a regular basis with a golfer that's twice as good at putting as I am and has a lousy arm. I kill him every time. I'm putting 30'ers while he's taking 60'ers on a regular basis. It's not fair. I make 1/2 mine he makes one in ten from 60. I win by 5 throws.

I also play against a guy that out throws me by 50' but putts about my level. Same results -- he gets about 4 putts a round that are easy while I'm 60+ out going 10%.

Which is more important -- distance/accurracy/putting? Answer: yes.

The guy that says distance is overrated is usually the guy that throws it far without any accurracy -- my definition of distance is distance from the intended target after you've thrown it -- not distance from your hand after you've thrown it. It's like measuring a basketball player to the top of his head -- no one grabs a rebound with the top of their head, measure how high he can reach. Don't measure how far you threw it -- measure how far you have left.

<font color="blue"> Your anecdotal evidence is your opinion/observation but certainly not proof.
In my 18 yrs of playing competitive disc golf I've been the weenie arm of the group most of the time. Sure on some courses this makes it harder to cash, but on most courses I've played (80+in 16 states) it makes little difference. The vast majority of pros that I beat in a tournament outdrive me (distance wise) by a significant margin.</font>

<font color="red"> I disagree. It's that 30'-and-in distance versus 60'-and-in. Give me a 30' versus my competitor's 60' and I love my chances. The guy's going to have to go crazy to beat me while I just have to be average to win. The other guy that says distance is overrated is the older guy that has adequate distance and putts first a lot of times because as the group walks to the basket his is the first one they come to. The next two guys are actually outside him -- just farther from the tee!! </font>

Please -- distance is like an extra option. If you fall behind a guy that can't throw, you can close the gap so much easier by making a some big drives. When fall behind a guy that can out-distance you, it's very difficult to make up ground unless he makes mistakes.

How about Delimanated Alex. Our sport is in somewhat of a delimanation. :p

delimanated? I am confoosed. I am guessing you mean deli man ated. Which makes perfect sense as I think of it. We do need some more deli man in disc golf. That would then lead to deli man eating, or in the past tense deli man ated. Dang, I must be hungry.

Ebay is not ruining disc golf.

Although, I do carry around $100 just in case I see the guy with the new '01 Roc that hasn't heard of ebay yet.

(See Steve -- no thread drift here!!)



Bill -- just from following all your rantings about the top masters hiding out from the open players and appreciate your passion about it -- but why do you care?

Here's the senior tour money leaders:

1 1 Dana Quigley 18 $1,479,436
2 2 D.A. Weibring 17 $1,265,362
3 3 Mark McNulty 16 $1,152,664
4 4 Hale Irwin 15 $1,145,117
5 5 Tom Jenkins 18 $1,112,215
6 6 Des Smyth 15 $1,099,103
7 7 Tom Watson 9 $950,011
8 8 Allen Doyle 18 $913,028
9 9 Wayne Levi 18 $912,328
10 10 Tom Purtzer 16 $854,818

I'm sure all of them could have made a lot less if they would have played on the PGA tour on the weekends they chose the senior tour instead. They could have chosen to make less -- why would you? I know that the money's out of whack and the top PDGA masters aren't actually making any money -- but why get so hyped about it? I don't even see who these guys are that are driving you nuts. There must be a history here that I've never picked up on.

Ooops -- Bill, I also meant to mention, aren't you the Akron Park guy?

I finally got to play there this summer and was stunned how nice it is. What a great place to play. Playing in and around Philadeliphia it's odd to throw a roller and actually have it roll. Usually you just get to say "Well -- if the grass were cut that would have been perfect."

No -- I didn't make it to Buchmiller, my daughter was at camp at Elizabethtown and I didn't have time.

Jeff, do you feel the sport is filled with a lot of "meist""
one who practices "meism" I made this up all by myself, funny how working with engineers the things I come up with.

May I suggest a different word? Egoist? (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=egoist) Egoism? (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Egoism)

oooh, sounds very good to me, although these are already defined. I had no idea about them.

but why do you care?





Paul, are you a current member?

nevermind, I found you

There is alot of "meism" in DG puting us in a "delimination" to self serve these "egoist" mentalities. :cool:

very nice indeed!

this thread is in it's way to a full spiral out of control..

It's simple Am's can play Am's as long as they like..we just need a flat system. you get back what u put in and nothing more..the top places get trophies.(period) all sponsorship money would go into open men and open women and open masters.(period) don't see what the big deal it in doing this?? look at any other sport on the planet and you find me AM. tournaments that payout in so called fake money..it's comical..u won't find it..give them a players package and lunch and a trophy. and make the entry fee low and give the money to the Pro's.

As for players who always win at Am. if I was a TD and the same guy came to my B tier and won it year after year I would deny him entry and tell him he can play Open or cady for his friend.(period)

Jay

As for your last sentence in that statement. I very highly doubt that you would do that. Start running tournaments and trying that. Running tournaments is a business. Telling your customers they can't play is just plain stupid!

As for your last statement, running disc golf tournamets is a stupid business. Try running your next tournament and paying yourself $20 and hour for all the time you put in.

First things first , THANK YOU For the comments about Akron . We have been trying for years to clean up and keep it clean , WE are also expanding to 27 holes in the future .
WE also have a PDGA coming up on 28 Aug 05 . Email for more details .
NOW on to the subject about Masters .

I really am just sick of people blasting adv for not moving up when in comparison there are LOTS MORE masters HIDING out .
I have documented many times about how I as a 923 rated player stand NO chance statistically ( and PROVED IT by tracking my scores vs the open scores ) to come in the TOP HALF let alone cash in the open division .
YET time and time again masters have been up in the scoring range of not only cashing but cashing BIG .

Right now there are player ratings caps in Am divisions
( most known is you cant play intermediate if you have OVER a 915 player rating )
WHY cant this be done in the pro divisions ?
A player with at 980 rating is more then able to cash ( NOT WIN ) but cash at almost any PDGA event . It does not matter if he is OVER 40 years old .

Paul
Yes it is, but for those of us who get the satisfaction of seeing 167 golfers at one course on a Saturday afternoon is priceless!
http://www.pdga.com/tournament/tournament_results.php?TournID=5115

It's all about incentives. You put the financial incentives in Open and you will entice some masters to play open, just like when you put the financial incentives for ams to play ams, and not surprisingly, they play ams.

Wow. Paul, I wasn't certain of your identity until your last post.

So now that I know I'm talkin to a Sedgeley homey, tell me how many holes at Sedgeley can't be reached with a 325' drive?
While I don't have all the distances memorized, I believe you can reach holes 1,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,13,14,15,16 and 17 with a 325' drive. So on your home course there are 3 holes that are out of reach with a 325' drive from the longer white and/or red tees.

You make the assumption, longer drive equals shorter putt. That's a huge assumption on nearly every MADC course other than maybe Brandywine, Prompton or Warwick Longs.

The trend I've seen in course design lately is to put a higher priority on staying in the fairway which greatly reduces the advantages of throwing far.

..........anyway...our discussion has drifted far off the blame eBay thread topic..

........now back to your regularly scheduled programming...

Nick -- didn't you just say basically the same thing I did?

You're still letting the guy decide to be an amateur or a professional you're changing the system -- I'm just not coming up with any alternative solution.

By not allowing the guy to decide where he should play my implication is the current mob rule mentally that decides if the guy wins a frisbee he has to now play in the open division for the rest of his life.



Perhaps. I believe that no matter how skilled a player is, if he has never made the decision to play for profit or try to profit via his skill, that he should be able to remain (AND REALLY IS) an amateur. These are the folks that a sport is built upon. The attitude and character are the ones that have built this one. My question is why haven't we yet created a classification or division for folks of this persuasion to compete in at PDGAs.

Don't we want them? Is there some reason we purposefully don�t provide for them? Does it have to do with our name (Professional)?

Sorry -- wasn't trying to hide my identity. I'm not very bashful.

No -- you can't use Sedgley as an example, puhlease. Sedgley's Sedgley.

I understand the priorty being placed on staying in the fairway, but it's still a huge advantage to throw it farther. Maybe even more so.

Whatever # the "tunnel" hole at Nockamixon is, is a good example. I stand there and throw my midrange down the middle just because I'm too nervous to throw my driver. I go 250' and I'm in a good place to do it again and then hope for a chance at three. Jake A. stands there and does basically the same thing with that friggin' Rhyno and he's putting at the basket. Distance is critical. Obviously the trees and how you manage the course are important -- but once you start playing against guys that average 30' more than you no matter where you are you're swimming up stream.

Since you mention Sedgley -- I love how the locals think they have a better chance from the short tees. It's just not true. The guy that can throw it throws a putter about 90% of the time while most of the locals are throwing mids or drivers. The scores are usually much tighter bunched from the "longer" tees -- although at Sedgley that means "longer than the short tees". I love the logic that I shot -5, lost by 6 and I was in it. Versus I shot +3 lost by 4 but I played terrible . .. ?? It's that hole perception thing. As long as I was under "par" I did OK.

Don't forget Bellevue, Vineland, Kennett and Akron as other courses where I know that extra 30' is going to be the difference between a makeable putt and a "Nice Up".

It's all about incentives. You put the financial incentives in Open and you will entice some masters to play open, just like when you put the financial incentives for ams to play ams, and not surprisingly, they play ams.



Is it just me or has James been particularly "point on" lately?

I noticed that too.

It's amazing how sometimes two people can be miles apart on one debate and then walk almost lockstep on another issue.

If I recall. The massive 2MR debate had Paul and I on one side and you and James on the exact opposite. Here I'm saying essentially the same as you and JM and opposite of Paul.

Oh, well sometimes you're right, ......other times you disagree with me. :p

Don't like the Sedgeley example.....okay....

Other courses in the MADC that a weenie arm can do well at:

Buchmiller, Doggie Woods, Pleasure Mountain, Hickory Run SP, White Clay, Killens Pond, Trap Pond SP, Calvert, Druid Hill, Boulder Woods (Pinchot), Jordan Creek,Buzzy's Creek.

That's a partial list of courses just in our area that really don't discriminate against the weenie arm....

Here is another issue off topic but this seems to be a good thread to discuss this.

Ams are gaining exposure with Am Worlds, Mid-Nationals, &amp; Am-Nationals. There are also many other big am events around the country. Just look at last summer when JJ won am worlds then is sponsored by Innova almost immediately. Bubis as well. I beleive Slater got sponsored by Discraft after he won am nationals.

There are incentives to stay and compete as ams. Why not take advantage of them?

Who's name do you recognize more.
Kris Hutter 1006 rated &amp; not sponsored
Matt Hall 974 rated &amp; sponsored

Whatever # the "tunnel" hole at Nockamixon is, is a good example. I stand there and throw my midrange down the middle just because I'm too nervous to throw my driver. I go 250' and I'm in a good place to do it again and then hope for a chance at three. Jake A. stands there and does basically the same thing with that friggin' Rhyno and he's putting at the basket. Distance is critical. Obviously the trees and how you manage the course are important -- but once you start playing against guys that average 30' more than you no matter where you are you're swimming up stream.



this sounds like more of an accuracy thing than a power thing..just my opinion..throw your driver more accurate and it will egual his midrange accuracy..


and about the comment that TD are in it to make money is possibly the worst statment I have heard in a while..take into account the hundreds of man hours and men and women that worked on your course to clean it up and prepare it for a tourney and than all the men and women who worked the day of the tourney on t-shirts... and flyers... and spotters. and men and women who set up temporary holes...and set up lunches and set up ctp's and set up water and refreshments for the players....do these men and women do this for money??? helllll nooooo they love this game and tournaments are for the spread and enjoyment of this wondeful sport...for those few TD's that actually run the events to make money is really sad to me...just my opinion

Jay

There is alot of "meism" in DG puting us in a "delimination" to self serve these "egoist" mentalities. :cool:



I guess I am still not sure what you mean by delimination, but I do like the effort. Now, if only I could make up a word about how "well" I played today....oh yeah, terriblific.

I didn't say TD's were in to make money jay -- you were called stupid because of you hypothetical situation where you wouldn't have let someone play in tourney you were TD'ing as bad business.

Guys that run disc tournaments know just how bad the business is. Let's see, if I put in hundreds of hours and hundreds of dollars only some of my customers will even bother to thank me -- Right, sounds like a good plan.

They're hosting a gathering is more like what's happening.

wow relax paul i didn't mean to confuse you I just was saying that someone said they did/... I never said it was you..it just sounded like that.. relax..someone earlier had said they did tourneys for cash..I just didn't bother to use quotes ok..

Jay

As for turning a guy away becuase he has won a tourney over and over has happened was good or not??? I'm not one to say..sorry about pissing u off I think it was cevalk who made the comment(im too lazy to look back)..I know exactly how much time and money it takes..coming out even is a stretch for a tourney..the good TD's love this game and would do anything to see it propsper including tons of man hours and there own money to have great tourneys..

Jay

"relax"? Tee hee -- that's a good one. I don't remember the last time I got excited. You must be young.

no i wouldn't say I was young..im not old but im not young..I only use that statement(relax) because sometimes words seem highly energized and that's what yours sounded...these boards can sound angry sometimes..also because u mistook my message and I really wasn't talking about your coment at all. that is all

Jay

Now don't panic jay -- 'cuz this is one of my favorite points to make when I get carried away and spend too much time on this message board.

You said that someone said they ran tournaments for money. No one said this because no one does. It's similar to the statement that advanced players stay in advanced to win all the time. Theses things are typed but no one ever knows who does it -- why? Nobody does it. Please find me the guy that has figured out to make money running disc golf tournaments. I teach -- I teach summer school in the summer. I'd love to run disc golf tournaments instead -- I just can't do it at the current pay rate . . .. . my guess would be about <font color="red"> -$10.00/hour </font>

Say something about women playing so I can get my usual firestorm started over that one.

Steve -- when was I arguing about the 2m rule? That had to be years ago. I'm staunchly in favor of whatever the guy who's running the event that I'm playing in decides. In other words -- I don't care any-moe-oh-ore [Collins, 1983 Back In Black].

Sorry to combine responses, I'm running out of steam.

Jay -- you said I needed to get more accurate with my driver to compete with someone else's midrange. You don't understand the long run. Every once in a while I can hang with a guy throwing drivers versus his midrange discs -- but eventually I'll lose. A midrange is a more accurate disc. Same as ball golf -- Tiger's hitting an 8 iron into a green that the majority of players need a 4 iron for . . . . Tiger has the advantage.

Alright -- I'm done. Unless Nick Kight chimes in again, or Randy Wimm. Sigh, those were the days. Where's Mark Knopfler when you need him? I want my M-R-V.

As for players who always win at Am. if I was a TD and the same guy came to my B tier and won it year after year I would deny him entry and tell him he can play Open or cady for his friend.(period)

It's a lot easier to bloviate and bluster about what one "would" do than it is to do it.

If you were to pull that stunt on current PDGA member at a sanctioned tournament and you hadn't obtained prior permission from the Competition Director, you''ll find yourself on the wrong end of a PDGA disciplinary action for denying a PDGA member her/his constitutionally-mandated privilege of earning points in a PDGA Sanctioned event, violating Rule 804.08.G, and breaking the Sanctioing Agreement, which obligates a TD to enforce the PDGA Rules of Play (2005 TSA, p. 3).

The ONLY circumstance in which a TD of a sanctioned event may restrict a PDGA member from competing in the division in which s/he is registered with the PDGA that is being offered is the circumstance in which a waiver has been obtained at the time of sanctioning for
any local conditions which would restrict the enforcement of any PDGA rule or the participation of an otherwise eligible PDGA Member. If no waiver is granted this agreement and the Rules of Play are binding" (2005 TSA, p. 4).

Is Ebay ruining disc golf and amatuerism???

No, charging $16 for drivers, $12 for Mids, and $8-$10 for putters is the problem. The disc manufacturers are charging tooooo mucking fuch. :eek: Put the prices down where they need to be $10, $8, and $6 and by the time somebody buys a disc on Ebay and pays for shipping, it's not worth it.
As for the payouts, those people have earned the prizes by their performance (according to the PDGA RATING SYSTEM :p), it is their choice to do as they wish with them. Anyone who disagrees is wrong wrong wrong, unless I am? :D

Now don't panic jay -- 'cuz this is one of my favorite points to make when I get carried away and spend too much time on this message board.

You said that someone said they ran tournaments for money. No one said this because no one does. It's similar to the statement that advanced players stay in advanced to win all the time. Theses things are typed but no one ever knows who does it -- why? Nobody does it. Please find me the guy that has figured out to make money running disc golf tournaments. I teach -- I teach summer school in the summer. I'd love to run disc golf tournaments instead -- I just can't do it at the current pay rate . . .. . my guess would be about <font color="red"> -$10.00/hour </font>

Say something about women playing so I can get my usual firestorm started over that one.

Steve -- when was I arguing about the 2m rule? That had to be years ago. I'm staunchly in favor of whatever the guy who's running the event that I'm playing in decides. In other words -- I don't care any-moe-oh-ore [Collins, 1983 Back In Black].

Sorry to combine responses, I'm running out of steam.

Jay -- you said I needed to get more accurate with my driver to compete with someone else's midrange. You don't understand the long run. Every once in a while I can hang with a guy throwing drivers versus his midrange discs -- but eventually I'll lose. A midrange is a more accurate disc. Same as ball golf -- Tiger's hitting an 8 iron into a green that the majority of players need a 4 iron for . . . . Tiger has the advantage.

Alright -- I'm done. Unless Nick Kight chimes in again, or Randy Wimm. Sigh, those were the days. Where's Mark Knopfler when you need him? I want my M-R-V.



Paul and I have discussed this in some detail while shooting rounds, and though I don�t agree with him that �no women� play disc golf or that I can�t name a handful of players who hang in advanced to win stacks of plastic when they would likely be added cash in Open, I can and do fully agree that the future of disc golf is paying Tournament Directors for their work as Event Organizers.

(If panties getting in a bunch made a sound, we would now be hearing a thunder clap.)

To fully explore all of the reasons I feel this is so true and so crucial would elevate melatonin levels worldwide, so I will try to phrase it as concisely and as briefly as possible.

Highly knowledgeable and skilled Disc Golf Event Organizers are the single greatest resource our sport has and we ought to support anything that keeps them around and doing what they are doing, as well as hopefully improve it. Getting paid for their efforts has been recognized by the PDGA (15% of total purse if I recall correctly) as one way of helping in this effort.
I do not agree that all TDs should get paid, but certainly the majority running B Tier and up events should. Yes, even with the loads of other volunteers they must organize who give their time and efforts for no remuneration they should get paid. What they do with that money is up to them. Currently 99% of TDs give that money back to the event. That is their choice. No one should fault them if they decide to keep it.

I see any income from running an event as pretty minimal, more likely significant income will come in the form of branding and event or course and merchandizing (i.e. USDGC, MSDGC, Japan Open and other private ventures). A few events that should be more like them are: WVO, VTI, and VO. Again that is up to the TDs though, not the PDGA or any other organization.

At any rate, the more Professional Event Organizers our sport has the better, in my opinion. I would begrudge them no income and be just as grateful for their service to the sport.

(Feelin� steamed up again Paul?)

On topic, defining amateur sport is the mandate of an organizing body such as the PDGA. I do not see our current for profit amateur class definition as ruining disc golf as much as I see it as being a restrictor plate (NASCAR) on the inclusion of a more main stream type of amateur sportsman. Or in otherwords, I think that we may have reached the point of saturation with "gambler/carney" players and need to open up to sportsmen/women and students who by distinct nature are repelled by our form of for profit competitions.

We need a true amateur classification.

Highly knowledgeable and skilled Disc Golf Event Organizers are the single greatest resource our sport has and we ought to support anything that keeps them around and doing what they are doing, as well as hopefully improve it.



I will definitly agree 100 % on this one and they should be rewarded for all the hard work they and all the men and women who help them. I only make the point as u also do that they do it for the love of the game. These guys have real jobs as most of us do and to put all those hours in on top of it is great..they deserve evrything we can give them..

on a lighter note to paul..about the distance thing I know this has been argued over and over I ask this..how far do u throw? what type of driving style?? has your distance improved or has it leveled out?? I only ask this question for one simple reason..it's true the laws of physics help certain players to throw further(dont tell brad hammock) however I believe as do most that every player short tall weak and the such has the ability to throw over 350..I also agree that not everyone can throw 450..what it sounds like is you may need to improve on your driving style..I started this game popping out 350 375 with no problem but I completely changed my style and can now throw 400 to 425. It took a lot of chitty throws but I utilized everything I could to make that plastic fly further and so can u(wow that sounds preachy..sry bout that)

Jay

[QUOTE]
I don�t agree with him that �no women� play disc golf



Take the number of women in any division in any state. Divide that number by the number of men in the same division. Get a number bigger than 1? Didn't think so. Don't think is a tournament thing either. Casual guys everywhere. Casual girls . . .. dondes? Next someone will post that I hate women. I smile and explain how great it would be to play with a bunch of sweaty women instead of a bunch of sweaty men. Some get it -- some don't.

Jay -- thanks for the lesson. If I practice putting I'm an above average old golfer. If I don't -- I'm a below average old golfer. I throw it far enough -- but if I decide to get young again, I'll review the above.

[QUOTE]
I don�t agree with him that �no women� play disc golf



Take the number of women in any division in any state. Divide that number by the number of men in the same division. Get a number bigger than 1? Didn't think so. Don't think is a tournament thing either. Casual guys everywhere. Casual girls . . .. dondes? Next someone will post that I hate women. I smile and explain how great it would be to play with a bunch of sweaty women instead of a bunch of sweaty men. Some get it -- some don't.



Not sure if that qualifies as steamed up or not Paul, but said like a true math teacher.

May I suggest the next time you are out playing disc golf and see a woman playing disc golf you start counting. Say to yourself, �One�. See another different one? Take a moment out of you highly stressed round and say to yourself �Two�.

Now even if you stop this intellectually difficult exercise, not to mention complicated mathematical calculation, at this point, I think that you will be able to see that indeed there are women playing disc golf.

(Note: If I applied your formula to Ball Golf vs Disc Golf then you would have to equally conclude that there are no men disc golfers either, right?)

I know you don�t hate women, that would doom you considering you are married with a daughter, both of which dare I say could kick your booty. Still, if I averaged the amount of time I have met or spoken with them verses time with and speaking to you, I�d have to conclude that they do not exist, right?

Temperature rising?

Hey MTL....Anyone answer your question yet? :D

Hey MTL....Anyone answer your question yet? :D


They answered it, they just put it on a different thread.

Here (http://www.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=423314&page=&view=&sb=5&o=&vc=1)

I think the real answer to MTL's question is in this thread. (http://www.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=67422&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1) Don't get bogged down. The answers to all the message board's burning questions are contained somewhere in that thread. I guarentee it. Now, everyone go read that threa, cool off for a bit, have a good laugh, and put things in perspective. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

I'm not sure what the last few posts said...I'm responding to the subject and the first few posts of the thread. Everyone reiterates that eBay isn't what's ruining disc golf and amateurism...and I agree. eBay is an awesome tool for selling things when it would otherwise be difficult to find a buyer. Don't blame them for that..it's one heck of a business model. It really comes down to one's integrity. If you're truly good enough to compete at the open level, even if your odds aren't great at winning, you should compete at it. This is a case of bagging, and this problem won't be solved in the near future.

Maybe another question to ask is "Is selling any payout won as an amateur ruining disc golf?" I play in advanced, and last year I played in intermediate. I play what my rating says, and once it hits 950-960, I'll play in Open. I've won plenty of plastic, and most of it is sitting in a closet. If I can pick some, I try to get backups of discs I primarily throw. I also grab one or two of the latest, greatest disc if I can. I give away some stuff to newbies, but since most of them are too overstable, I just throw them in the closet. I've put some stuff on eBay, but it is a pain to type up the description, even if using a template, list them, answer stupid questions, and then take them to the post office. Eventually I'll get rid of the rest of them, since my wife wants them out of there. I don't see anything wrong with this. I think using payout for Ams is a good way to indtroduce new people to equipment. What is not cool is having this merchandise be the sole fundraiser for the tournament. This is inflating entry fees. What would honestly help is if entry fees were $20 max for local/regional events, and $40 max for A-tier type events. That makes the payout less of a concern and allows players to think more about having fun than how much they're going to win. Yeah, I'll keep paying the $50+ entry fees to events I really like, but I'm for sure not in the game for a profit. It'd be awesome to go pro and have some hobby income coming out of it...or at least enough to cover the entry plus traveling expenses. The only reason for that is so my wife would be more of a supporter!

Basically, the huge entry fees and massive payouts are the problems. If these were both smaller, it wouldn't even be worth it for 970 or so baggers to sell all their payout, since it wouldn't be worth more than $60-70. Anyone else agree?

I agree. However I would lower it even further.

Like $15 entry. 1 disc payout to every am and top finisher(s) get a trophy. Who's going sell a trophy?

$60 worth of merch is still significantly more than most 960 rated open players take home.

Anyone else agree?


completely agree

Who's going to sell a trophy?

My daughter Kira is selling trophies faster than she can produce them, but if anyone is buying, she hopes to get ahead in production over the winter.

Your daughter selling trophies is really cool we probably need more of that from our own. I don't know how old your daughter is, but be careful if she is under 16 you don't wanna catch a child labor law violation ;)

Question...Telling guys to not go pro if you can make more as an am is an example of manipulating the system. Why would you encourage this? :confused:

Question...Telling guys to not go pro if you can make more as an am is an example of manipulating the system. Why would you encourage this? :confused:



Not that I agree with the encouragement part, but...would you rather have a good tournament player playing tournaments or just leagues/casual rounds?

2 sides of the high Am still playing...
1 - More tourney players = more dollars in (for the org and TD).
2 - Stagnation of a player's game.

Which, may not be that bad.


2 side of the low Pro still playing...
1 - Donor burnout (insert "Practice" chant here)
2 - Elimination of a player from tourney golf.

Given those two choices, which helps the sport more?

Your daughter selling trophies is really cool we probably need more of that from our own. I don't know how old your daughter is, but be careful if she is under 16 you don't wanna catch a child labor law violation ;)

Question...Telling guys to not go pro if you can make more as an am is an example of manipulating the system. Why would you encourage this? :confused:

I'm always telling her I'll buy her out and outsource it to Afghanni orphans but she insists it is fun and not really like work.

I've seen too many guys go pro around 950, not get any better, and drop out of the game. Usually they get frustrated and bitter before they give it up. I think we need a cap on Advanced somewhere around 940 or 945 and then have an amateur division above advanced called Expert. So that Experts could get enough points to go to Worlds we would have to change the point system a little. I just don't see any benefit to the sport in constantly pushing the best amateurs out of the game entirely by turning them into donor pros.

I say allow market forces to set entry fees and payouts for these professional players and create an amateur class and divisions for folks to competed for the fun of the game and the experience of as good an event as the organizers can manage. And price "those" according to services provided not payouts.

[QUOTE]
I don�t agree with him that �no women� play disc golf



Take the number of women in any division in any state. Divide that number by the number of men in the same division. Get a number bigger than 1? Didn't think so. Don't think is a tournament thing either. Casual guys everywhere. Casual girls . . .. dondes? Next someone will post that I hate women. I smile and explain how great it would be to play with a bunch of sweaty women instead of a bunch of sweaty men. Some get it -- some don't.



Not sure if that qualifies as steamed up or not Paul, but said like a true math teacher.

May I suggest the next time you are out playing disc golf and see a woman playing disc golf you start counting. Say to yourself, �One�. See another different one? Take a moment out of you highly stressed round and say to yourself �Two�.

<font color="red"> Nick -- you know I'll be playing Saturday out at Kennett . . 0 women. Schoettle's [I'm a potty-mouth!] may be there -- but that's just a intended inflammatory reference to that little female dog he drags along some mornings. </font>

Now even if you stop this intellectually difficult exercise, not to mention complicated mathematical calculation, at this point, I think that you will be able to see that indeed there are women playing disc golf. <font color="red"> Sigh, if only. </font>

(Note: If I applied your formula to Ball Golf vs Disc Golf then you would have to equally conclude that there are no men disc golfers either, right?) <font color="red"> Yes Nick -- and if you want proof ask ESPN.</font>

I know you don�t hate women, that would doom you considering you are married with a daughter, both of which dare I say could kick your booty. Still, if I averaged the amount of time I have met or spoken with them verses time with and speaking to you, I�d have to conclude that they do not exist, right? <font color="red"> No -- as usual you're messing up the logic. You could conclude that I don't have a disc golf playing wife or daughterS. (There's two daughters, neither of which golf. Not even if I pay them.) Your "if"s are good, it's those "thens" you struggle with . . . </font>

Temperature rising? <font color="red"> No -- we're arguing semantics with a touch of logic. I love arguing semantics and logic.</font>

Brakels post there is what I'm after...but instead of keeping them in AMS create it in the Pro class as Pro2, it's already there. It was created but only by choice, if a player reaches a certain level then he /she needs to be pushed up there. I'm sure people would be skeptical, thinking higher entry ,but it doesn't need to be so. Players could still pay the same entry as they did in Advanced.


Nick has a point, more casuals may start getting in those waters more if it is priced reasonably and don't fear looking like a ******* for lack of skill. There are plenty of divisions for people to choose from already and can be marketed as such.


Spliting the PDGA shouldn't be construed as us against them it should create more unity. I'd have more respect for an Adv. guy moving into a "semi pro" division who is cashing 60% of the time in adv. than staying in Adv because he doesn't wanna risk his money in the Open.

Pro 2 does not work for the real pros and it does not work for the TDs. And for that matter, it really does not work well for amateurs either. I've never seen a Pro 2 experiment last more than a season before the TDs all say, "Aaaah. Huh! O.k., well we won't do THAT again."

We offered it last year at the IOS because we could afford to because we weren't also diverting amateur "sponsored" cash to the pro side. If a TD needs to divert cash from the ams to the pros, he does not need his cash cow advanced players turning into cash sucking pros.

So long as the PDGA wants to be collecting $500-$1000 per event from TDs running successful B-tiers, that money has to be in the TDs wallet at the end of the weekend. Pro 2 takes too much money off the table.

So I guess if there is no AMs at a tournament then there is no profit for a TD...

Am. Worlds can bring in a lot of revenue for a club..does pro worlds?? hopefully they use it to advance the local courses and club..last I checked K.C. has some new courses..

Jay

So you feel Jay and Des Reading are cash sucking pros, and Ken Climo is a cash sucking pro, Juliana Korver is a cash sucking pro,Dr. Rick Voakes is a cash sucking pro. Peter Shive is a cash sucking pro, and the list goes on about the people YOU think are cash sucking pros. Disgusting.

Not disgusting, realistic. All pros are a drain on cash for a TD. The TDs payout all of the cash received in entry fees back to the Pro players plus enough to meet tier requirements. There is no possibility of profit from Pro payout, and it eats into the normally small pool of sponsorship cash. It is a small pool since most sponsors would rather sponsor with merchandise over cash.

Am Payouts on the other hand offer a profit margin if the discs are purchased below retail and paid out at retail. Even when the payout exceeds 100% of entry fees, there is some wiggle room in the profit margin. For events that are sponsorship cash strapped a large portion of the profits from am payouts is used to cover the pro payouts when >100% is required or advertised. If there is any left, it goes to cover tournament expenses. For most events I have seen, there is not much left after that.

So you feel Jay and Des Reading are cash sucking pros, <font color="red">Des is obviously -- Jay's a pro so he sucks cash from the TD -- give him a little time and he'll be sucking from his peers on a regular basis like the next nominee. </font> and Ken Climo is a cash sucking pro <font color="red"> Duh -- he's sucking cash every where he goes. The guys running ball golf tourneys love seeing Tiger because of the increased advertising revenue. Nobody's financially doing good when Kenny shows -- the TD has another cash sucking pro and the other pros know there goes a big (most likely the biggest . . . ) chunk of the entry pot. </font> , Juliana Korver is a cash sucking pro <font color="red"> Duh </font> ,Dr. Rick Voakes is a cash sucking pro <font color="red"> yep -- and if you're a master OR a grandmaster -- could be adios 1st place </font> . Peter Shive is a cash sucking pro <font color="red"> uh . . .I'll take you word for it. </font> , and the list goes on about the people YOU think are cash sucking pros. Disgusting. <font color="red"> How so -- they cost money. aka, they "suck cash". Why would someone run a pro disc golf tournament? Because they want to and it's their perogative. They're not doing it to make money -- they're doing it for the fun. It's an exhibition. </font>

I think Mr. Duke covered it, but just in case I will also since I know Bruce is driving all night tonight to make it to our club's trophy-only tournament Friday morning.

Cash-sucking does not mean anything bad. The air conditioner in my apartment is an electricity sucking machine and therefore a cash-sucking machine. But I love my air conditioner! In the current Merchastravaganza system of disc golf, tournaments make money selling merch to ams (prizes) and use that money to cover expenses (fees, trophies, etc.). In the common process, the pros do not add any money, they cost money. So in this sense they suck money like a vacuum. They don't suck in the vulgar meaning of the word.

Some of the stuff I've read on this thread is ridiculous nonsense talk.

Now we are referring to the pros as cash suckers?

While I don't agree with the terminology, when I ran tourneys it generally was the am divisions and women divisions that put me into the red every tournament.

Sure I understand the common practice of buying discs wholesale and then dumping them on the am divisions at retail cost to stretch the money. However ams are always the divisions that pay lower entry fees than the pros and in a lot of cases are receiving a players package that the pros aren't. If you're running a tourney and funneling $ out of the am division into the pro pot and this practice is bankrupting you then you are the cash sucker not the pros.

I went into my own pocket frequently to payout ams because they paid much lower fees and we had a practice (which was highly encouraged/nearly demanded) of paying very deep in am divisions (100% am/ 50% adv).

The women divisions also played a part as there was usually only 2-3 women competitors and their entry fees didn't cover the cost of the trophies without bankrupting the payout. I'm not trying to demonize any division as all entrants are welcomed, I'm just pointing out the economics of common practices.

The pro payout was always very simple, took the least time to figure out and generally the most profitable (by profitable I mean ending even-not losing money).

To refer to Climo, the Readings and other premiere disc golfers as cash suckers is just ignorant. If you host a tournament and you're paying the top 33% of the field you're paying the top 33% regardless of which names are on the scoreport or which order they come in. If Ken Climo, Barry Schultz, Des and Jay Reading show up at your event that's four more pro entry fees you are collecting, whether they finish 1,2,3 in their divisions or dead last it makes no difference to the bottom line. You're not going to pay out a bigger % or incur any extra expense because of their attendance are you?

The term's not very PC -- sorry.

The pros (B tour plus, right?), leave as a group with more money than they showed up with . . .. this is good for cash flow or it "sucks" for cash flow?

The usual result being the guy that does all the work gets negative dollars while the people that do all the playing get positive dollars.

So long as the PDGA wants to be collecting $500-$1000 per event from TDs running successful B-tiers


So then the solution is simple... unsanctioned tournaments!!!

Assuming there is no sponsorship, the Pro division always leaves with less money than they arrived with.


EXAMPLE TYPICAL B/C tier:

They pay a $50 entry. This entry fee is now divided up with various fees. So much is taken out for PDGA sanctioning, so much is taken out for the local or regional host club. Often times there are park and/or pavillion rental fees that must be covered. By the time all the fees are satisfied only $44 of the $50 is going towards the purse.

30 pros come in with a $50 entry = $1500
top 10 pros rollout with a total of $1320

Sure if there is significant $ sponsorship it's possible to payout more than you took in. However as was pointed out earlier the majority of sponsorship is in the form of plastic, merchandise or gift certificates, which leads me to believe in most cases if any one division is walking out in the black it's most likely an am division. I'm fine with that too, am divisions are our grassroots for the growth of the sport.

Steve -- what B tier are you talking about?

I'll guees that for a B tier you need:

PRO: $250 Sponsor Cash Added to Pros, $1,750 minimum Pro Purse, 110+% of entry fee
payout in MPO, FPO, 100+% rest

Now for a C tier your math is close but I'll "guess":

85% of entry fee min. in all divisions, no minimum Pro Purse or Am player minimum

But --- those are just guesses mind you . .. . ??

My example was assuming there was no sponsorship so maybe it wouldn't qualify as a B tier.


However assuming there is sponsorship: as a TD I always divided the sponsor value equally per capita among the divisions. ie. 50 players, $500 sponsorship value then $10 extra per person was added to the purse, 10 masters= $100 added 20 open=$200 added 20 ams= $200 added to am payout.
The merchandise sponsorship can be assigned a $ value and divied equally as well but I suspect a lot of TDs just provide a players pack to ams with the added merch sponsorship.

Having been a TD for several years way back in the day my observations indicate to me if there's any inequity in payout among the divisions it is the TD's doing not the players themselves.

Current requirements are above 100% payout for A & B tiers for Pro Divisions. I am not aware of any TDs in my area that take expenses out of the entry fees before calculating payout. Most take out the PDGA fees, charity donations, and series bonus money, but none take out event expenses. In this case every dollar paid in by the pro divisions is accounted for, and more than they paid in must be paid back out to them since the payout must be 110% or 125%. All of that cash has to come from somewhere.

Am divisions should not run in the red unless you are paying out at more than 175% retail.

Current requirements are above 100% payout for A & B tiers for Pro Divisions.
<font color="blue"> The example I gave was assuming there was no sponsorship so under guidelines it wouldn't qualify as a B tier. </font>
I am not aware of any TDs in my area that take expenses out of the entry fees before calculating payout. Most take out the PDGA fees, charity donations, and series bonus money, but none take out event expenses. <font color="blue"> Well the expenses do need to be paid one way or the other. So either the host club absorbs the cost through disc sales leading up to, or during the event or the poor TD has to dig in to his own wallet to meet these obligations. If these two options are not feasible than the costs must be deducted from the payout in all divisions assuming there are not sponsorship dollars to cover these expenses. </font>
In this case every dollar paid in by the pro divisions is accounted for, and more than they paid in must be paid back out to them since the payout must be 110% or 125%. All of that cash has to come from somewhere.
<font color="blue"> Either way (deducting from sponsorship or deducting from players entry fees) the math is the same and every dollar can be accounted for. Like I said the example I used was concerning only entry fees not added cash. If you were a sanctioned B tier you'd have to meet the payout % guidelines, so if the sponsorship didn't come through the host club/TD would have to scarf up the funds to meet it's obligations. </font>

Am divisions should not run in the red unless you are paying out at more than 175% retail.



<font color="blue"> It's been many years (maybe 10?) since I ran a PDGA but I recall it would go something like this:

Assuming no added $ 15 ams x $10 entry
-$2per entry
fees (pdga/club,etc)
= $130

Payout: trophy ($15) + CTP (5) + 23 discs x 5 (115) =$135 </font>

That was a typical am payout as I recall in '93-95. I know a lot of things have changed since.

The real dilema was how many trophies to purchase. Are you going to have enough women attend for both am women and pro women? Do you need a junior trophy? If you don't buy a trophy for a certain division and then four juniors or four am women show you're demonized for slighting them. More often I'd buy the trophies and then eat the cost myself when that division didn't show.
Needless to say, after losing my own money on nearly every PDGA I ran and then hear endless griping and second guessing by every player looking out for their own interests I handed over the reigns to my successor who, incidently is the best course pro (amateur) I know.