Aug 10 2005, 03:19 AM
The Frontier disc golf course will be the site of the 21st Annual Frontier Open September 10 and 11 in Hays. The tournament is a Professional Disc Golf Association B-tier sanctioned event and part of the Kansas Disc Golf Association's annual Oz Tour.

The Frontier open features 72 holes of golf, alternate tee pads, alternate pin placements, closest to pin shots, an ace fund and a putting contest. This year participants will play three rounds of 24 holes. There are divisions for all players at all skill levels. The divisions and fees are as follows:

Open men, $65;
Open women, $65;
Masters, $65;
Advanced men, $50;
Advanced masters, $50;
Advanced women, $50;
Intermediate men, $35;
Intermediate women, $35;
Recreational, $35;
Juniors, $15.

Non-PDGA members will pay an additional $5 fee. Registration begins at 7:00 a.m. Saturday; for pre-registration visit www.maceman.com. (http://www.maceman.com.) Pay out is based on the number of participants and sponsors. All tournaments are subject to change. Participants should contact the tournament director the day before the tournament for updates/changes.

21st Annual Frontier Open List of Events

This year participants will play three rounds of 24 holes. There will be six temporary holes added to the existing course.

Friday, September 9 east side Frontier Park (pavilion near Tee #15).

� 5:00 - 6:30 p.m. Registration.
� 6:30 p.m. Random Draw Doubles competition, Pro and Am pool. The cost will be $10 per person.


Saturday, September 10 east side Frontier Park.

� 7:00 a.m. � 8:30 a.m. Last call Registration.
� 8:45 a.m. Players meeting.
� 9:00 a.m. Round 1 Tee off.
� One hour lunch break when last group finishes round 1.
� (TBA) Player�s meeting.
� (TBA) Round 2 Tee off.
� 7:30 - 9:00 p.m. Players Party (location to be announced).


Sunday, September 11 east side Frontier Park.

� 9:45 a.m. Players meeting.
� 10:00 a.m. Round 3 Tee off
� (TBA) Awards Ceremony.

The first 90 participants to register will be guaranteed a 21st Annual T-shirt, disc, mini and booklet in the players package.

Hope to see you there!!!

Str8

PS. For more info visit the forum under Tournament Info, topic; 21st Annual Frontier Open web page (http://www.kansasdiscgolf.com)

Aug 11 2005, 07:34 PM
This tournament and course was originally founded by Ron Rice #2890. It is the last of the original grassroot courses in the state of Kansas and to our knowledge the oldest annual tournament. Two grassroot courses have been removed, and one has been redesigned. Ron ran the tournament for the first 15 years and then became frustrated with his job as an employee with the City of Hays Parks Department. His boss thought his suggestions and opinions for maintenance and improvements to the course were biased and self-centered. It was at this time that Ron stepped down as the tournament director and became less active with the sport.

For several years after Ron resigned as the TD, the tournament and spirit dwindled in numbers. Those of us who knew Ron wanted to continue the traditions of the tournament and to preserve his legacy as well. Over the past several years we've persuaded the parks department to add alt tees and alt pins. Currently they are considering replacing the old ashphalt tees with concrete. Last year we accomplished great things including an outstanding players package and classy payout.

For this year's booklet I'd like to relish in some old memories of Ron during his active years. If you have a story to tell, please respond.

Thanks,

Str8

Smitty2004
Aug 12 2005, 01:04 PM
Brett-

I have a couple of questions for you?

1) What is the record for turnout at this event?
2) Your numbers almost doubled from 02 until last year. What was the big change that caused this increase?

I look forward to playing the Hays event this year. I hope we get the numbers up and over 90 this year. If the shirts, discs, and tournament book are anything like last year, they will be bad *****!!!

Look for the W.V.D.G.A. to invade Hays!!!

circle_2
Aug 12 2005, 02:14 PM
Will all divisions be playing all 3 rounds simultaneously (unlike last year)? Hope to make it out there...for the first time! Looking forward to this one!! :cool:
doc

Smitty2004
Aug 12 2005, 02:29 PM
Doc-

All divisions will play at the same time. By playing 24 holes, they should be able to spread us out and have a round that will flow.

1 round on Sunday is going to be the bomb. Play the round and get on the road.

You make it, and I will see to it that you get a 40 oz.

Smitty

Aug 12 2005, 08:25 PM
Smitty,

I interviewed Ron for an article in the Players Booklet yesterday, and he told me that the record turnout in his tenure was 107. Since Mace and I've been coordinating this event, our top turnout has been 78. In 2002, there were only 38 participants. So we've brought the turnout back up to a respectable level.

With Mace living in Salina, he had difficulty coordinating the tournament. There wasn't anyone who wanted the responsibility of soliciting sponsors, working with the parks department or the visitor's bureau in the Hays area. When I moved back to Hays and met Mace in 2002, I asked if he needed any help. I was working on my Master's degree in PR/Advertising and put my knowledge and skills to the test. Since then we've accomplished amazing goals. We now have alternate tees and pin placements for the Frontier and a solid working relationship with the parks director. That makes a huge difference I think. He has made it one of his goals to have the best looking and most challenging courses in Kansas.

Last year we brought the tournament to a B-tier status and raised $1,550 in sponsorship. With the contributions from Chris Glassman owner of Casual Graphics, Tracy and Travis Rudor, Jason Myers, Jeremy Green, Mace, Dusty Ream, Sean Belinski and a few other locals we were able to put together an awesome PR campaign. We sent out 50 plus news releases, 300 plus invites, and had a healthy payout. We were a little disappointed with the turnout last year, but those who attended really appreciated the effort we put in.

This year the CVB approved $1,250 in grant money for our player's package, that's $300 short of what we raised in sponsorship from the year before. This grant will help us to achieve greater goals this year. I guess the biggest change is having people who appreciate the rich history of this tournament and course. We know we have something special worth preserving.

Hope that sheds some light,

Str8

Smitty2004
Aug 12 2005, 10:19 PM
This year the CVB approved $1,250 in grant money for our player's package, that's $300 short of what we raised in sponsorship from the year before. This grant will help us to achieve greater goals this year.



That should fatten the purse a little!!!!! Does this mean that the players packs will not come out of the entry fee?

Way to go!!

I am pumped to get back to Hays and drink some more "Liquid Bread"!!! That place kicks *****!!!!!!

Smitty

Aug 13 2005, 02:21 AM
Actually,

We have enough money from the grant to cover almost all the expenses for the player's package. Last year we had enough supplies for 144 packages. This year we will only guarentee packages for the first 90 registered players. So we will eliminate some expenses there. Also, it would be best to pre-register if you want the full package.

We're looking into 21st annual shot glasses too, so that may cost a little extra, but 21 means 21! We'll take the expenses not covered by the grant from sponsorship dollars. Therefore, we will fatten not just the Open purse, but all the division payouts. So, yes, all of the registration money will revert back into payout.

This year I offered the $25, $50, and $100 sponsorships to local businesses, but I also offered a $250 angel sponsorship and a $500 title sponsorship. Believe it or not, there are some businesses interested in the two latter categories, more details to come.

So, do you think last years champ (Chad "Sandman" Garrison) will defend his title? I admit, he will be tough to defeat on this course. He will represent himself with an undeniable, raging passion that elicits once a year. You will see the desire and determination in his eyes and performance. You will know he is the defending champ when he steps onto the tee. As many locals know and will attest to, the only thing Chad and I agree on... is the right to disagree. However; my prediction (and I'm trusting my gut here) -- he will defend his championship.

Str8

PS. Our local brewery (Liquid Bread) is now open, functional and will cater to the most ferocius of drinkers. Our university is ranked in the top ten drinking per capita, and our tournamnet elicits great competition amongst the fiercest of partiers!!

Smitty2004
Aug 13 2005, 12:49 PM
I will take E-mac as the winner, if he makes it to Hays again this year.

circle_2
Aug 13 2005, 01:50 PM
Doc-
You make it, and I will see to it that you get a 40 oz.
Smitty


Sign me up...NOW!!! :cool:

McCabe
Aug 13 2005, 01:53 PM
Watch for Smitty to rip it up in Hays!! for his 2nd PDGA win of the year!

Smitty2004
Aug 13 2005, 02:21 PM
Sign me up...NOW!!! :cool:



We could head down to the brewery after the first day and I could hook you up with a BIG PORTER!! It is bad [I'm a potty-mouth!]! :p

Or if you want just a big ole bottle of Colt 45! :D

circle_2
Aug 13 2005, 02:26 PM
I need an IV of Liquid Bread...STAT! :D

Smitty2004
Aug 13 2005, 02:31 PM
I don't know if they do that there. :confused: We will have to check.

circle_2
Aug 13 2005, 02:35 PM
Mmmmmm...Vitamin B-R! It does a DG'er good!!

dm4
Aug 14 2005, 12:36 AM
Can't wait for the Frontier this year! It is going to be tons of fun. Hays is close enough for travelers from other states to come and compete. If you don't come you are missing out!

Aug 14 2005, 06:16 PM
Don,

Any others from Norton looking to make the trip?

How about the Rodieks from Nebraska? Disc-Diva from Colorado? Hope we can get some KC players here this year too.

Str8

Aug 15 2005, 09:13 PM
Team Rodiek will be here!!!

rocknrog
Aug 15 2005, 09:17 PM
The SchoenHopper & I will be there, I can't wait, I love this tourney & I love the college town atmosphere, makes for a fun weekend.......... You can concentrate on Disc Golf or Partying

SSSSSWWWWWEEEEEEEEEEEETTTTT

Aug 16 2005, 02:09 AM
Rog,

It'll be good to see you at a tourney. How's that little one of yours doing? Be sure to bring some pics of the baby daddy-o!!

rocknrog
Aug 16 2005, 11:15 PM
Almost had to cancel, band was booked, not anymore, I had them move the gig to a different weekend, I never gig on Friz or Frontier Weekends..........

Smitty2004
Aug 17 2005, 12:08 AM
Your band should do a gig at the Frizz, that would be the best way to avoid that entire problem.

Back to the thread.

Is your babies momma going to play in Hays? Might make a diff. to my babies momma.

Aug 17 2005, 01:20 AM
Rog,

That be sweet if the whole family could make it. I could make special lodging arrangements if your interested. I know a good babysitter too. I'll do whatever it takes to have more ladies play.

I can't believe you still have time for the band. That's awesome. You must have adopted the motto I had when we were giggin. I'll sleep when I'm dead.

Str8

m_conners
Aug 17 2005, 12:46 PM
Str8:

Does this tourney usually fill??

Thx,
mc

Smitty2004
Aug 17 2005, 02:02 PM
It hasn't filled up since I have been playing it. This year is going to be the biggest it has been in a while. There is an outside chance that she may fill up. 24X5 120 people. That would be sick!!!!

m_conners
Aug 17 2005, 02:08 PM
That would be awesome...I know you guys have the players to do it. I went to the sun burn open and they were only expecting like 40 players and they ended up with close to 80...it seems like Disc Golf tournaments this season are getting bigger in attendance.

Aug 17 2005, 03:18 PM
thats weird, cuz every Kansas tourny I have been too this year has been remarkably smaller in numbers than the previous year. :confused:

McCabe
Aug 17 2005, 03:51 PM
thats weird, cuz every Kansas tourny I have been too this year has been remarkably smaller in numbers than the previous year. :confused:


Yes they have!

m_conners
Aug 17 2005, 03:52 PM
What up Leo?

Maybe it's because Roy Williams left for North Carolina :o

Aug 18 2005, 01:16 AM
Geez Smitty,

It's like you're trying to steal my spotlight! I'm kidding, it's just the lizard in me. Our turnouts have been relatively consistent the last couple of years, but Emac is right, turnouts seem to be much lower this year. We had 78 players in 03 and 70 in 04. So it seems to be predictable. It be awesome to have more players, but last year we only had a dozen local players, so we hope to boost that demographic.

Mace will have the on-line registation up soon.

Aug 18 2005, 10:56 AM
What up Leo?

Maybe it's because Roy Williams left for North Carolina :o



Mike, maybe thats the trend, go Southeast!!! Like I am going to do on this weekend. Bowling Green is such a great place! :D

m_conners
Aug 18 2005, 10:59 AM
Bowling Green has awesome golf...good luck, and above all else have fun!!!

Throw in a lot of putts, Leo!!

mc

Aug 18 2005, 08:13 PM
I've had some questions regarding this topic on other forums, so I'll post it here too. The Frontier Open is always the weekend after Labor Day. So if you want to mark it on your calendar next year, you'll know when it is. It has been a tradition for almost 21 years now.

Str8

Smitty2004
Aug 19 2005, 05:28 PM
Do I still have dibs on hole 5 for CTP's?

What is up with that shirt from last year that we talked about?

Aug 20 2005, 02:44 AM
Smitty, Hole 5 is yours. Do you want a tee sign and a full page ad for your sponsorship? What's the estimated cash value? I'll need a digiatal photo of what you want and the contact info you want advertised.

As for the T-shirts, I had someone offer me $40 for one tonight. But I'll keep my promise, one 20th annual XL t-shirt reserved for Smitty. Thanks for all your support Smith Family! Tell WIFE she better play!!!

Smitty2004
Aug 20 2005, 08:36 PM
Don't know if Wife will play or not. Looks like probably not.

How much does it cost to be a Tee sponsor? Will you take plastic as payment. I just happen to know a dude with a stash of discs. They could be used for CTP's, Ring of Fire, and many other things.

Aug 21 2005, 04:04 AM
I have 5 levels of sponsorship.

$25 half page ad, half of tee sign
$50 full page ad, full tee sign, name on back of t-shirt
$100 full page ad, full tee sign, logo on back of t-shirt
$250 full page ad, full tee sign, logo on t-shirt and banner
$500 Your business presents the 21st Annual Frontier Open!

If you have a cash value for what you will donate, we'll figure something out.

Thanks Smitty,

PS. Do I need to talk to the wife about the butt problem again? Just kidding!!

Aug 21 2005, 07:38 PM
I have a question. Do player's who are sponsored/endorsed by disc manufacturers pick and choose their own tournaments, or do the manufacturers, or both? Just contemplating some propaganda.

Thanks,

Str8

m_conners
Aug 23 2005, 10:28 AM
Myself and Billy Lund will be attending this one...Justin Bougher might catch a ride with us as well.

Str8, is there a titledisc option on this one? Sorry is that was already answered.

mc

Billy_Ho
Aug 23 2005, 10:45 AM
Yep, I've got this one marked on the calender!!! :)

Aug 23 2005, 02:42 PM
Bret, your busting your butt and it shows!!!

Smitty2004
Aug 23 2005, 03:05 PM
Str8, is there a titledisc option on this one?



In the past you have been able to sign up at Maceman.com.

Aleksey Bubis #22722
Aug 23 2005, 03:07 PM
You best give me a ride too conners, count me in.Please :D

McCabe
Aug 23 2005, 03:17 PM
It will be good to see some "boobs" in Hays. :)

m_conners
Aug 23 2005, 06:11 PM
You best give me a ride too conners, count me in.Please :D



10-4 big fella!!

Smitty2004
Aug 23 2005, 06:45 PM
Boobs-

Talk to Keldog about the course. He use to come every year. That is where I met him about 4-5 years ago. I think he has missed the last 2 years. Get him back up there with you.

I have seen lots of Boobs in Hays. You are right, they are nice. :D

Aug 24 2005, 02:26 AM
Mace was having some difficulties with his webpage, so I'll check with him tomorrow and let you know the status. The Host motel will be the Super 8, last year it was a $42 flat rate. Four people per room equals $10.50 per person. It may be a little more expensive this year, but that should give you a ball park idea. The number is 785-625-8048 ask for Anita Ruder (Tracy's mom). If she's not there ask them about the discounted rate for discgolfers the weekend of Sept 10 and 11. They should know something.

Thank you all for your support, you won't regret the trip.

Str8

dm4
Aug 24 2005, 04:36 PM
Any others from Norton looking to make the trip?




I have not checked with James yet, since he is always on the road (truck driver). Chad and Charlotte play The Frontier sometimes. We will see. They just got back from KC (vacation and Rosedale! ) and are ready to play in a tourney. Charlotte won a bag in Norton and is pumped about disc golf again!!!! Chad won a Sidewinder and now has a killer turnover (lefty)!!!

Andrew's grandpa took him to Beloit, and they were at Hays last year. I will have to check with him. Maybe some of the other HS kids are ready for a two day tourney, but I doubt it cause a lot of them work weekends.

Sounds like things are going well. Can't wait to see the artwork!

Don

Aug 24 2005, 11:45 PM
Don,

You can preview the artwork on the KDGA webpage. Also, the first day of soliciting sponsors elicited $725. I'll have more tomorrow. The goal is $2000.

Str8

PS. Mace has the pre-registration up on his site.

Aug 25 2005, 01:11 AM
http://maceman.com/Pictures/Hays2005web.gif

Aug 25 2005, 03:48 PM
Just wanted to post our total Sponsorship dollars thus far. Currenty, we have $975. We have another full week, so we hope to double that. Keep in mind the grant money from the CVB $1250. Like I said, it will be a healthy payout.

Str8

keldog
Aug 25 2005, 04:51 PM
This was the first P.D.G.A. event I ever played back in 1997 or 1998!Ron was the first T.D. I ever met.It's from people like him and the guys from Colorado I came with that got me hooked on Disc Golf.Ron is the nicest guy you'd ever met on the course and a Great T.D. and I'm sure he's highly missed on the disc golf scene in Kansas.
(,)(,)'S call me I'm going.

Aug 25 2005, 05:19 PM
Keldog,

Glad to hear your coming. I'm trying my best to persuade Ron and Karen to make an appearance this year. They still live together, and Ron still works for the Parks Department. The locals are about the only disc golfers that ever see him anymore, and your right, he is a class act.

Str8

Aleksey Bubis #22722
Aug 25 2005, 05:47 PM
Allright I will call you.

Smitty2004
Aug 25 2005, 10:33 PM
I am pumped already! This is going to be the biggest Frontier Open in years!

dm4
Aug 26 2005, 11:35 AM
Wish it was this weekend. Can't wait!!!

Smitty2004
Aug 27 2005, 12:32 AM
Wish it was this weekend. Can't wait!!!



I know! The beer at the Brewery is so GOOOOOOOOOOOD! The tourney is pretty fun also!

Aug 27 2005, 12:46 AM
The beer is **** good, but the purse just keeps getting bigger. Current cash raised $1,275! Still a solid week ahead to solicit sponsors too.

Str8

Ruder
Aug 27 2005, 10:50 PM
If you don't make this tourney and don't have a good excuse, you should be hung!!!!!

Seriously, the payout is tremendous.
The course is unrivaled.

Aug 29 2005, 10:02 PM
On a side note, congrats to Smitty on the new title......State Coordinator!!!

Aug 30 2005, 10:49 PM
...Congrats to Bob Decker as well on the new tiltle... Financial Director. I will have the conclusion of our sponsorship dollars later this week. Everything is coming together smoothly.

Str8

Aug 31 2005, 02:06 AM
Anyone coming for doubles on Friday Sept. 9th?

Str8

"You have to think big to be big"
Headrick

Aug 31 2005, 12:45 PM
"You have to think big to be big"
Headrick



Would this be the reason Shaq is what he is? :D

Sep 01 2005, 08:17 PM
Current cash raised = $1,525 + prizes + player's package(Grant Funded) = HEALTHY PAYOUT.

Str8

Sep 02 2005, 12:33 PM
Great work Str8!

Sep 02 2005, 06:11 PM
Make that $1,875!!

cornhuskers9495
Sep 04 2005, 02:28 AM
TanK will be at this mug.....This could be A tierish in size...Smitty, brett pencil me in. I went to maceman.com to pre reg, hoping i could just put my CC in, but not to be.Looks like Ill have to reg. saturday morning, save me a seat...!

Smitty2004
Sep 04 2005, 10:38 PM
Frank-

I would think that you will have no problem getting signed up on Saturday. I can call Mace and let him know you are going to be there.

How about a little side bet for a cold brew at the players party? Are you in big boy? Better yet, how about a HUGE beer from the brewery!

Sep 05 2005, 08:39 PM
I went to maceman.com to pre reg, hoping i could just put my CC in, but not to be.Looks like Ill have to reg. saturday morning, save me a seat...!



What was the problem??? registration is up. If you look on the left side half way down you will see Tournament registration click on it and go from there, let me know if you have any other problems.

Schoenhopper
Sep 06 2005, 01:35 AM
Can't wait for the Frontier and some good beer! :D

Sep 06 2005, 02:51 AM
The Holiday Inn is offering a $69 flat rate to disc golfers. You must reserve a room by Wed. Sept. 7th to receive the discounted rate, contact 785-625-7371. The Super 8 is offering a $42 flat rate, contact 785-625-8048.

If anyone needs a place to crash, a friend of mine has offered his entire basements to disc golfers in need. Get in touch with me and we'll make arrangements.

Total sponsorship raised $1,950!!

5 Days until tee off!!!!!

See ya soon,

Str8

Sep 06 2005, 08:54 PM
FOUR MORE DAYS!!!!!

jared11
Sep 07 2005, 12:26 AM
brandon how does the pro field look right now?

Smitty2004
Sep 07 2005, 11:51 AM
Jared-

Here is a list of people who have said they were going to be in Hays.

Me
McCabe
George Smith
Ken Franks
Chad Garrison
Boobs

There may be a few more?

I would think there would be 15-20 Open players.

Are you guys going to make it?

jared11
Sep 07 2005, 12:39 PM
ya definately. thanks smitty

dm4
Sep 07 2005, 02:17 PM
Anyone coming for doubles on Friday Sept. 9th?

Str8





I will be there and JimBob will also be there! Chad and Charlotte are going to make the tourney. Andrew (HS Freshman) and Granpa Doyle are planning on coming too, but I don't know if they will make dubs or not.

That's all the Nortonites that I know of.

Don

Sep 08 2005, 12:37 AM
Don't forget tee off on Saturday is at 9am!!!

keldog
Sep 08 2005, 05:56 PM
this is getting so close I can smell it,if you been to Hays you know what I mean.Farmers call it money but they can have it!

Sep 08 2005, 06:00 PM
We chalked 10m lines around all the pin locations that will be used this weekend. The course is mowed and the temp holes are in the ground. I must say that the park looks superb. Everything else is coming together smoothly.

See you soon.

Str8

Schoenhopper
Sep 09 2005, 02:28 AM
I can't wait to see the 24 hole lay-out. You all in Hays always have something new going on for this tournament. Hat's off to you all for coming together and keeping the Frontier going strong. :cool:

m_conners
Sep 09 2005, 12:18 PM
I will take E-mac as the winner, if he makes it to Hays again this year.



BOOBS!

Heath
Sep 11 2005, 10:33 AM
I will take E-mac as the winner, if he makes it to Hays again this year.



BOOBS!



I pick KEL-DOG! KEL-DOG!

Sep 12 2005, 01:13 AM
Thanks to everyone who made it out. We had a great time. We had players representing six different states. I must say it makes me humbled to have that kind of diversity. We may be in the middle of nowhere, but we'll make it worth your time.

Thanks,
Str8

PS. Keldog is the Man. Thanks for everything!!!!!

okcacehole
Sep 12 2005, 10:24 AM
Way to go Coda and Mitch - only players to shoot under all weekend long...heard the Kansas wind was ripping all weekend long...!

circle_2
Sep 12 2005, 12:49 PM
Mace, Str8 & crew, thanks for a spectacular weekend of awesome DG on a gem of a course! 40+mph winds or not, I was 'blown away' by the good folks of Hays, a top~rate brewery, and a very, VERY well run tourney! Your sponsors kick *****!! Congrads to ALL the winners...but the AM Masters had the most fun!

It was also great to get that 3-year-old Ace-less monkey off my back at the Friday night dubs...COOL! :cool:

doc

Smitty2004
Sep 12 2005, 09:46 PM
Doc-

I never did get you that 40oz. You now have something to hold over my head. I told you the brewery was good.

I had a great time. I don't look forward to the next time I have to play 48 tourney holes in a day. That is some serious work!

McCabe
Sep 12 2005, 09:56 PM
Str8 is the MAN!!!!!

Sep 13 2005, 05:22 AM
We went from zero Masters to 13 in one year. That meant a lot to me. The demographic of Ron's generation are coming back to play the Frontier. I guess the word is spreading; I hope. I can't believe there were 5 aces over the weekend. Two for doubles and three during the tournament.

Doc,

I intentionally stiffed you on your other $3 for that ace. I figured I'd buy you a beer at the Brewery with it next year. Consider it an incentive program. That was an expensive round of doubles for me. Ten dollars to play! Then $5 dollars to see Tank spank Hole 5, then while teeing off on Hole 6, cough up another $5 seeing Doc spank Hole 5.

Thanks to everyone! Let's keep this thing going!!

Str8

dm4
Sep 14 2005, 01:41 PM
Thanks for a great tourney, Brett and Brandon (and company)! It was great. Can't wait till next year!!!