In searching our PDGA website I do not find any recommendations or standards for the proper use of out of bounds. Of late however, out on the course, a lot of talk has been about the �overuse� of it at events and in course design.

What are your thoughts on the proper use of Out of Bounds?

Do you think that it is being overused or abused?

Perhaps the single greatest example of a course that uses lots of OB is Rock Hill during the USDGC. What are your thoughts about how it uses OB?

Again, what is the proper use of Out of Bounds?

Great question. Some of the "proper" uses of OB would be:

1) To protect sensitive areas on a course (new plantings, erosion prone areas, etc.) by keeping the bulk of players out and making the ones who do land there walk it out.

2) To make up for physical shortcomings on a hole (a lot of courses have "connector" holes where for whatever reason it was difficult to make every single hole challenging due to shortage of space, shape of the area, etc.

3) safety and reducing conflict with other park users (OK, so can you guess I play in an urban area yet?).

4) To mess with people's heads.

I am working on revamping our course for a proposed tournament to select our state representative for the USDGC for 2006.

Even from the blue tees, our course still has an SSA of 48. It is not a difficult course if you stay on the fairly wide open fairways.

However, in relation to Winthrop Gold, I am planning on making a lot of additional OB on our course.

I actually need questions answered in regards to how large to make landing zones for relative distances.

For example a 360ft down hill hole through trees, decent sidearm/turnover shot. Most pros/top advanced players throw a midrange on the hole because there is a 50ft drop in elevation. So it plays really short. Most pros will duece the hole. There is a gravel path about 8ft wide that is 6ft in front of the basket I intend to make OB. But how far back should I make the landing zone since I want to punish shots that are way overthrown.

Also, a 250ft down hill hyzer hole, that a player must land on a peninsula to stay in bounds or re-tee. Basket is 15ft away from the edge. How far back should the landing zone go.

On both holes, I was thinking about 40ft. Most pros will land within 20ft of the each of these baskets on the tee shot and they are easy dueces. While I do not want to make the holes significantly harder when it comes to playing them. I really want the lurking OB to mess with their minds. Like Winthorp does.

Any suggestions on how large to make the landing zones? I have ideas, but would apprieciate outside help on this one.

Hey, I am all for it. The concept of fake OB is probably the single greatest improvement in course design during my time of playing disc golf.

Obviously, my discussion is based on its proper use, but in the hands of a competant person, fake OB makes ordinary holes challenging, and challenging holes awesome.

It is immenently fair and creates the challenge that our sport sorely needs. It raises the bar significantly in the skills we must demonstrate.

Don't get me started on the whiners about fake OB. I heard a lot at the Worlds and a lot when we did it on our course in Austin. In both cases, it improved the course immensely and started to create the challenges that Professional disc golf sorely needs.

Long live rope, string and paint.

When I read 'proper use' my first thought was easy... to make a hole/course more difficult. The use of basket placement with preexisting OB obstacles; ie next to water, roads, disc eating trees, sidewalks, etc.

We have a course here in Denver that the designer is continually adding OB by putting rock rings in stategic locations (and little 'no swimming signs' /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif), mainly in the open areas and between fairways or around young trees. At first I didnt like it but I do now, except for the one around some trees 70 ft. off the teebox, if you hit them that's penalty enough. Even though there is tons of room, 27 holes, 24 baskets, most of the course is pretty wide open so it adds some chanllenge as how you play a hole. You have to place your shot just right on the longer holes with OB circles.
We also have a tournament at a short course that a few circles are painted on the grass as OB. One being an island hole with a 40-50 ft. circle painted around the basket, it's an open 222 ft. hole, with a creek 20 ft. behind it (okay so the circle is really more of an oval!).
anyone else 'making up' OB at there courses to add some difficulty and character?
-mikew

Don't get me started on the whiners about fake OB. I heard a lot at the Worlds and a lot when we did it on our course in Austin. In both cases, it improved the course immensely and started to create the challenges that Professional disc golf sorely needs.

Long live rope, string and paint.



Hole 5 at Jordan Creek (the over the water shot) was really the only hole at Pro Worlds with "fake" OB. A circular line of OB was drawn behind the basket to make for an island green.

Just about every other OB line at Pro Worlds was a water hazard or road/path.

Natural OB = good. Fake OB, especially when there is an excessive amount of it, is cheesey.

I'm not sure what Pro Worlds you were at, but there was a helluva lot more paint than just #5 at Jordan. However, in my estimation, there should have been even more. It might have made some holes at Tinicum more demanding and some holes at Nock more fair.

Real OB or fake OB if the real stuff ain't around. They both rule. A professional disc golfer should have a challenge with real consequences on just about every non-putt. It's a true test of skill. There are few things worse than a non-OB hole where someone throws a good shot and someone throws a crappy shot into the next fairway, but is only "penalized" with a slightly more difficult upshot. We have way too much of that crap in our "professional" tourneys.

but there was a helluva lot more paint than just #5 at Jordan.



There was paint, but that was only to better delineate the natural OB. You do that instead of using the edge of the water or the edge of the path, which many times is not a solid line and a poor indicator.

If there was more "fake" OB than behind the basket of hole#5 at Jordan, please list it.

I figured there would be some strong opinions on this topic.

It's hard to keep ball golf's use of OB out of my thoughts when I think about its use in disc golf. In that context a lot of rope in disc golf might seem hokey.

The thing to consider is that disc golf does not (yet) generate the kind of dollars ball golf does, so we can't install ponds or streams, nor stands of trees, and in many cases we don't even have control over where grass is cut or not. When I see lot's of string out on a course I look at it as if those lines were streams, ponds, lakes or thick shule. If they seem like they are in a bad spot or that the hole would be better if they were differently shaped or not there at all, then I question the quality of their use.

I think that it can be overused and even abused, but used properly it can do as James says, and add much needed challenge.

So what is proper use? Some here say that you should have significant course obstacles as parameters, others that you don't. There has to be some happy medium right?

I'm probably in the minority on this, but that's usual.

I understand that fake OB is an inexpensive option used to make a course more difficult, but it seems as though there are other options available than putting up hay-bale walls or painting circles on the grass. How about planting a tree? I realize it's more expensive, but aren't we worth it? Of course we are. Bite the bullet and get a hearty 3-4 inch diameter tree from the local nursery, put bark protection on it, and place it strategically on the desired hole and make it a mando. Or plant a line of them and make that the OB line.

Another option is a hedge. It will take some forethought and planning, but a hedge circle around a pin looks nicer than hay bales or paint.

If your water table is low enough, deep bunkers similar to the one's at St. Andrews (the Royal and Ancient) could be installed so that they would be difficult to throw from. Or you could just make them OB.

I have no problem with natural OB and mandos to protect areas that need to be protected as well as add difficulty to the course. But I am opposed to overly artificial and abundant OB. I see a golf course as a place to get away from man-made stuff and enjoy nature.

Whatever. When the paint is 15 behind the basket and the creek is 50 feet, I don't feel that the paint is simply "clarifying" the creek. In fact, it is non-sensical and disingenuous to equate the fake OB to the natural OB at the worlds. Like comparing a lion to a housecat. The painted OB area was entirely distinct from the real OB creek area and orders of magnitude more challenging and fair.

As to others: I believe #8 at LL around the schule near the pin. Nock #12 (I believe) had paint on the right side.

Things about OB I have never liked......

1. I hate it when there is not OB and beyond. About the only time you don't have this is when there is a sidewalk or a creek. I've played in some tournaments where if you land on the sidewalk you are out, but if throw a worse shot and be further from the basket and on the wrong side, you are in bounds. I really hate it when I throw a shot OB, and the person behind me throws a worse shot towards the same area and is in bounds - doesn't make a bit of sense to me.

2. I really hate Island greens. USDGC #17 is a different story, these are the top players at a national championship, what I'm talking about is the little B Tiers. I played in one tournament where there was a 200 foot downhill wooded hole with a natural island green (surrounded by a creek). Your shot was either on the green (basically tapping in for 2) or OB. There was no option to lay up short of this and then try to get on the island. I can't imagine the intermediates and women on this hole. In open, I ended up winning and played on the lead card for all the three rounds playing this hole. Out of 12 shots thrown to this, I saw 3 stay on the island. I was personally 1 - 3. If the top players at the tournament are going 3 - 12, I can't imagine what the ams were doing.

3. I really hate "throw over OB's" where there is no where to pitch out safe too. If you want to have some sort of rope made lake to make the player throw over something, fine. But if you do, please realize that not everyone will be able to easily make it every single time and that a bail out area is needed.

I guess the reason for this rant about these three things was b/c they were all at the same tournament......

but there was a helluva lot more paint than just #5 at Jordan.



There was paint, but that was only to better delineate the natural OB. You do that instead of using the edge of the water or the edge of the path, which many times is not a solid line and a poor indicator.

If there was more "fake" OB than behind the basket of hole#5 at Jordan, please list it.



My main beef with the O.B. at worlds was that it wasn't marked during the practice rounds. It was frustrating to throw shots that were playable and not near water and get up to your disc and it's O.B.. I cant remember the exact hole but at Lehigh there was O.B. marked around a row of bushes. That O.B. was completly artificial.

Things about OB I have never liked......

1. I hate it when there is not OB and beyond. About the only time you don't have this is when there is a sidewalk or a creek. I've played in some tournaments where if you land on the sidewalk you are out, but if throw a worse shot and be further from the basket and on the wrong side, you are in bounds. I really hate it when I throw a shot OB, and the person behind me throws a worse shot towards the same area and is in bounds - doesn't make a bit of sense to me.

2. I really hate Island greens. USDGC #17 is a different story, these are the top players at a national championship, what I'm talking about is the little B Tiers. I played in one tournament where there was a 200 foot downhill wooded hole with a natural island green (surrounded by a creek). Your shot was either on the green (basically tapping in for 2) or OB. There was no option to lay up short of this and then try to get on the island. I can't imagine the intermediates and women on this hole. In open, I ended up winning and played on the lead card for all the three rounds playing this hole. Out of 12 shots thrown to this, I saw 3 stay on the island. I was personally 1 - 3. If the top players at the tournament are going 3 - 12, I can't imagine what the ams were doing.

3. I really hate "throw over OB's" where there is no where to pitch out safe too. If you want to have some sort of rope made lake to make the player throw over something, fine. But if you do, please realize that not everyone will be able to easily make it every single time and that a bail out area is needed.




1. Picture the road or sidewalk as an OB stream. Even in big bad ball golf you can choose to miss obstacles by going even MORE offline than the guy that ends up OB.

2. Chapin? The REAL solution is to make it a re-throw from the tee if you go OB. That way, you have an option to lay up, pitch onto the green, and take your 3. Or if you're daring, go for the deuce. :) But with the full OB rules, it's a deuce if you stick, and likely a circle3 if you don't. Kindo dumb and kindo boring. You said you have no option to lay up short. Of course you do, there's just no reason to if your score will at worst be the same without laying up.

3. No argument.

:D

I can't remember the exact hole but at Lehigh there was O.B. marked around a row of bushes. That O.B. was completly artificial.



It was determined that the forsythia jungle on hole 8 was better marked OB than left as a nasty area where discs would be lost, unplayable and the plants get torn up by players thrashing thru this area. Players could have ended up with 3-shot penalties if they threw in there and got a lost disc penalty plus 2 shots to come out to the fairway because the last place their disc was seen was over a location in the middle of it which would have been unplayable. Ideally, it would be cool if we could mark a line maybe 5 feet in from the edge of plant areas like this so players could make a recovery shot from the edge without a penalty. However, it would be very difficult to run a string or paint line 5 feet in.

It sounds like the person who did the OB on that course had really no idea what they were doing.

The longest hole I had to throw "over OB" was on a hole that was 385ft long and the water ended at 360ft. That was from the Pro pad on #17 at UAH in Huntsville. However there are two things that make this a good hole. There is a bail out area on the left side the entire length of the hole. Granted it is only 40ft wide with water and street OB surrounding it, you can still play a midrange twice to reach the basket. And second, the Am pad was located on the bail out area. If Am's and women wanted to try for a duece they only had to shoot a wide hyzer 250ft over the water and back.

We will have an island hole for our temporary gold course, 250ft to the basket, creek on three sides 15ft away from the basket, and then a painted OB line 40-50 behind the basket. This will create about a 55-65ft diameter circle to land on. Which should be easy for open players on a 250ft wide open hole especially since it is down hill.

You need to design natural and artificial OB for the level of players that will be using it. I do not agree that artificial OB is good for anyone below the Advanced level of play. And for every natural OB, there should be either an Am tee box or a short bail out area or safe route. And as for island greens, unless the vast majority of players can reach the island accurately from the teebox, there should be a lay up area. I don't think you should HAVE to hit an island from more then 200ft.

As to others: I believe #8 at LL around the schule near the pin. Nock #12 (I believe) had paint on the right side.




I cant remember the exact hole but at Lehigh there was O.B. marked around a row of bushes. That O.B. was completly artificial.



I stand corrected. Hole#8 at Little Lehigh Parkway had OB around the forsynthia bushes near the polehole. These bushes were major headaches in the warmup tournaments prior to Worlds. They were more than head-high and just retrieving a disc, let alone taking a valid stance and having a shot out of them, was extremely problematic. Removing these bushes was not an option. This OB was listed in the handout sheet and discussed in detail at the player's meeting! This OB was still "real" because it was there to protect a hazard and a sensitive area.

Holes#12 and #13 at Nockamixon are problematic areas. A great interference is caused when shots on hole#12 and hole#13 interact with golfers on hole#14. A backup is greatly avoided when OB lines are used here. This is only an artifact of tournament play and I doubt that OB will ever be used for recreational play on the course. It is a fake OB.

FYI: The PDGA Course Design guide for different skill levels indicates appropriate distances for water carries and 'tee shot to dogleg turns':

www.pdga.com/documents/2004/PDGAGuides2004.pdf (http://www.pdga.com/documents/2004/PDGAGuides2004.pdf)

More out of bounds is good. It makes for more decisions which is more fun. Fake out of bounds is better than real out of bounds. I prefer walking into the out of bounds and picking up my disc to swimming into out of bounds to pick up my disc. I feel dirty when I play off any pavement. All pavement should be out of bounds. Out of bounds has a long way to go before it's obused. Mare obuse is mare better.

And another thing -- there's not one course that I play on a regular basis that doesn't need more out of bounds.

We always play roads as rivers -- on or over is OB -- and sidewalks/paved paths as creeks. Heck, sidewalks are better creeks than creeks. "It's not completely surrounded by water . . . yes, it is." that's such a silly argument to have. A parking lot is a better pond than a pond. Oh -- it's not as pretty, big deal. Leave the ponds alone. Better yet -- play golf around the parking lot then go sit by the pond away from the golf course and talk about how bad you sucked instead of vice versa which is how we do it now.

Mr Lung....

What is your opinion about the O/B on the first hole of the finals at Little Lehigh, which was also the 7th hole of the finals, with the direction reversed?

That artificial/fake/cheesy O/B was so well-placed, in my opinion. Without that O/B those holes wouldn't have existed, or would have been just ho-hum/so-what. Look what happened when it was played as the 7th hole: 2 of the 4 players on the final card went O/B. It had a huge impact on the final outcome. They didn't have to go O/B. They made a choice. Great risk/reward.

Great use of fake O/B, in my opinion. As long as artificial O/B is used judiciously it can make a good hole fantastic...

Dan Doyle
TD, Skylands Classic at Warwick

Mr Lung....

What is your opinion about the O/B on the first hole of the finals at Little Lehigh, which was also the 7th hole of the finals, with the direction reversed?

That artificial/fake/cheesy O/B was so well-placed, in my opinion. Without that O/B those holes wouldn't have existed, or would have been just ho-hum/so-what. Look what happened when it was played as the 7th hole: 2 of the 4 players on the final card went O/B. It had a huge impact on the final outcome. They didn't have to go O/B. They made a choice. Great risk/reward.

Great use of fake O/B, in my opinion. As long as artificial O/B is used judiciously it can make a good hole fantastic...

Dan Doyle
TD, Skylands Classic at Warwick



Well stated Dan. Hole 2 and hole 7 used artificial (though there was a physical difference in terrain also in those instances) very well. Without them those holes would only be shadows of themselves.

What is your opinion about the O/B on the first hole of the finals at Little Lehigh, which was also the 7th hole of the finals, with the direction reversed?



The high grass and OB lines on regular LLP holes#2 and #7 is what is known as a 'riparian area.' Riparian areas or zones are the interface between land and water, and the adjacent land if frequently inundated. In other words, the floodways of streams. Riparian zones are important topics in civil engineering due to erosion control, and ecology due to the large effect they have on aquatic ecosystems. Riparian strips refer to riparians and the vegetation growing there. Research has shown that riparian ecosystems are vital to the health of all other aquatic ecosystems as they filter out pollutants from land runoff, prevent erosion, and provide shelter and food for many aquatic animals.

With regards to hole#2, while it was dry out there for the past few weeks prior to and during Pro Worlds, this area is often a very soggy marsh. The park service is unable to mow it most of the year, and the OB line was meant to dissuade golfers from firing near there. Various tee locations were tried out on this hole and only the final one made for a good pro par four hole. I was surprised that so many golfers opted away from the conservative route around the outside left of the tree and went for the high-risk route to the right of the tree and directly over the OB area. It is also unfortunate that this tee location may have brought increased foot traffic to the very area we were trying to protect.

I don't like OB where it ends up being a matter of luck if you are OB or not. Having a sidewalk strip OB in a sea of in bounds is silly. It serves no real purpose other than to punish an unlucky shot. OB that actually test skill is fine. All of the artifical OB at the USDGC is great. These are the top guys. They should be able to handle whatever you put in their way.

I have seen OB added to courses to make them "harder". The problem is that it makes it harder for everyone pro and novice alike. Making things harder for pros and advanced is fine. They have more skills and should be challenged more. Making things harder for the lower divisions just seems to add strokes to their scores. Some of these folks are challenged enough by the course as is and don't really need more OB to seperate the field.

No Doubt !!!!!

No OB's within 10 meters of the Basket!!!!!!!!

Isn't that the putting circle ? /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

In my opinion, artificial OB (or mandos for that matter) with no other purpose than adding challenge is rather lame.

If you're playing a course for the first time, you expect water hazards, paved surfaces, picnic areas and playgrounds to be OB. You shouldn't have to carry a course guide to consult before every tee shot and approach to be aware of hidden artificial OB.

I fully understand there are areas such as the reparian area at Lehigh and the rock garden at Jordan which needs to be protected. I also understand OB or mandos to separate fairways and promote safety. I just feel a good course design shouldn't rely on abundant unnatural OB lines to add challenge.

As far as the 05 worlds OB goes, I heard some whining, but overall (with maybe the exception of hole 10 Tinicum) I thought it was fair and made sense.

How is it more unlucky to hit a sidewalk versus a creek?

Now I can understand not liking either a creek or a sidewalk as OB but excluding one versus the other seems odd. The sidewalk will typically be less punitive than a creek because it's more likely a creek will catch a disc versus a sidewalk due to the walls of the creek, but if you throw a disc and it ends up on a sidewalk that's out-of-bounds is still a bad throw. Don't throw it where the sidewalk is . . . .doesn't seem like it was unlucky to me -- seems like a bad throw. It seems silly not to have a " . . sidewalk strip OB in a sea of in bounds . . . ", just the opposite. If you have a sea of in bounds you need all the OB you can get. You had an ocean of in bounds and you couldn't avoid one little creek of out of bounds and you're telling me it was unlucky? Hmmmm . . . .

Golf with choices is a better more challenging game. The USDGC is an extreme example -- that course is set up for the best in the world. I'm talking about appropriate obstacles for us mortals that are typically already there anyway.

(with maybe the exception of hole 10 Tinicum) I thought it was fair and made sense.



There was OB on hole 10 at Tinicum? Where? Just the canal behind the polehole, right? Did they paint the line at the top of the canal and not down by the water's edge?

The reason many sidewalks are OB is to reduce the likelihood that a pedestrian will get hit by a disc and to discourage throwing in that area. If beyond the sidewalk is considered inbounds, it's no benefit to those that use the sidewalks.

Safety issues are always first -- that argument falls into a different catagory than what I'm arguing.

How much safer is a sidewalk for a pedestrian if the other side of it is out of bounds or not is debatable -- I'm just not arguing that. I throw my discs where there aren't any pedestrians regardless of what's in bounds or what's out of bounds.

I play several courses that have sidewalks/paths on them that make great disc golf hazards but are played as in-bounds. Disc golfers play everything as in bounds -- it's silly. The game is better if you add out of bounds.

Yes, Normally the water's edge was the OB line. At Worlds the line was painted at the top of the bank except for a small section behind 13's basket which was drawn closer to the water. The line on 10 was maybe 10 or 12 feet from the basket. I didn't take any OB strokes at Tinicum, but my forehand roller approach on ten was flirting with it.

The reason many sidewalks are OB is to reduce the likelihood that a pedestrian will get hit by a disc and to discourage throwing in that area. If beyond the sidewalk is considered inbounds, it's no benefit to those that use the sidewalks.



This is the type of OB I'm talking about. You have to cross the sidewalk to get to the basket. There are other obstacles to get by on the particular hole I'm thinking of. If you ended up on the sidewalk, it was a matter of luck not really skill. Pedestrians weren't an issue in this park. The sidewalk was within 40' of the pin and was between the tee and the pin. It wouldn't be a bad shot to be within 40' of the hole, but it would be unlucky to land on the sidewalk.

Again, there is OB which I believe is appropriate for pro and advanced that is not appropriate for intermediate and novice/rec.

Around here, we have varing amounts of trees on the courses, but we do have wind. Pro and advanced aren't effected as much by wind in the driving department. Intermediate and women don't generally throw as hard. For them the wind is another obstacle to overcome. They don't seem to need much artificial OB to challenge them more than they are by the course as layed out plus the wind factor.

This sounds like LL Wodds park. It's a fairly linear park divided by a concrete walking path and bordered by a concrete drainage "creek". The path and creek are played as OB for all divisions, but path/creek and beyond is played as OB for Adv and Pro divisions. The exceptions are where the tee and basket are on different sides of the path. In some of those cases you have to cross the path to get to IB territory.

Replace the sidewalk with water -- better yet, make it a lava flow. Would it be unlucky to land in the lava or a bad throw?

Your logic is the prevailing disc golf logic -- I just think it's missing an opportunity to get more out of the game.

And there's no one more opposed to change than the "locals". "We don't play it that way . . . " sheesh, like it's some kind of a crime.

No worries -- I prefer the challenge and I do think it's skill. To make a throw that takes the sidewalk out of play typically takes more skill than not. Just hucking the disc without concern about the out of bounds may make a simple shot into a challenging one. More often than not this will make the game more interesting for all levels. Is a sidewalk more of a challenge for a novice than an expert -- I guess, but then what obstacle isn't?

Think of this scenario -- I'm 40' from a basket that's on a severe incline on a breezy day. I wait until I think the wind is right and I let the putt go. A sudden gust drops the disc slightly and it hits the side of the basket, stands on edge and rolls 100' away over a road and out of bounds. Unlucky? Most say yes -- and unfortunate of course, but the reality is I could have dumped the putt under the basket instead of trying to make it. Same idea with the sidewalk -- there are throws that bring the sidewalk into play and throws that don't.

If the sidewalk isn't appropriate for all skill levels than it's not. But the over-riding sentiment in this game is to play everything as in bounds. I think we're short changing ourselves there -- but I've been redundunating myself for a while now so I'll let it go.

Any OB sidewalk that is along the line of play that is surrounded by IB does not serve as a deterrent to shots near the sidewalk. A three foot wide peice of hardtop is not something to be aimed at or avoided (or else everyone would be within 3 feet of the basket). To make the sidewalk and beyond (as most water plays around here) OB adds a deterrent to throwing in that area.

How can it not be a deterrant? If there's a 3' wide strip of sidewalk on the left of the basket as you approach -- don't you try to throw it to the right?

Your statement is baffling.

I play several courses with creeks all over the place that are 3' wide and out of bounds -- I try to avoid them.

It would depend on the basket, but I would most likely prefer that "on it or beyond" be used, but using it as a fake creek works well in a lot of instances.

Picture it as a sidewalk and not water -- what's the difference to our game? (http://cincinnatidiscgolf.com/images/CoursePics/Idlewild/Idlewild3b.jpg)


Here's one that real tough for nature to do -- we can put the river on top of the hill!! Let's see ball golf do that! (http://cincinnatidiscgolf.com/images/CoursePics/Banklick/Banklick3.jpg)

Not a great picture of it but a great hole. Without the OB parking lot/road behind it, it would be a snooze. (http://cincinnatidiscgolf.com/images/CoursePics/MtAiry/MtAiry13.jpg)

That depends on what you mean. If only the surface of the water is replaced with OB concrete, then the hole plays the same. If the area turned into a flat grassy open course and the concrete is poured as a walking trail nearly level with the basket directly over the OB creek, then the hole plays very differently.

In very few cases of concrete paths in open fairways do players expect to stay onthe concrete even if they hit it. Unless you are throwing in line with the path, discs will normally skip off the path if they do land on it. If both sides are in bounds, the risk calculation is very one sided.

Your logic is the prevailing disc golf logic -- I just think it's missing an opportunity to get more out of the game.

And there's no one more opposed to change than the "locals". "We don't play it that way . . . " sheesh, like it's some kind of a crime.




Wow, thanks for the complement!

I think we all can come up with some instances where a sidewalk, dog path, creek, sink hole or whatever in the general area of the hole is a great OB.

I think my point is that OB that is just unlucky OB is silly. OB that give appropriate challenge is spiffy.

I have seen artificial OB right next to a blind hole. What's the point of that other than to be punitive? The skill is to hit a target that you can't see, not to be unlucky that your shot wasn't 2' more to the left. If that's old fart disc golf logic,than I guess I'm guilty.

Really Nice Picture !!!!![url=http://cincinnatidiscgolf.com/images/CoursePics/Idlewild/Idlewild3b.jpg

Can I use this Picture ?
Picture it as a sidewalk and not water -- what's the difference to our game? (http://cincinnatidiscgolf.com/images/CoursePics/Idlewild/Idlewild3b.jpg)

I get most of what you're saying, but the question still remains that if there's a concrete path level with the ground on the left of the basket, don't you try to approach on the right?

I realize that for the most part, you "hope" your disc skips/rolls off the sidewalk -- and usually will. But if you throw a shot that eliminates this chance -- the right side versus the left side, they'll be a lot less "bad luck" to have to worry about -- right?

Yes -- I understand the randomness of the disc and poop happens. Yes, I believe I make putts that travel at what I thought was the right speed and direction but for some reason the basket has other ideas and decides that some putts are better left on the ground beside the basket instead of in it . . . but "luck" and just "hoping" your disc doesn't stop on the sidewalk when a skillful shot can avoid it don't seem to close the gap in this instance.

Dunno -- not my picture. I just linked to it off the Cincy disc golf website. What that basket looks like today is way prettier than that even -- they've really done a lot of work.

"Artificial OB right next to a blind hole" . . .. having trouble picturing that, but I'll take your word for it that it's bad.

Blind holes in general aren't a lot of fun anyway -- we're addicted to the flight of the disc, please let me watch it, but that's another thread.

Your point is that OB that is just unlucky OB is silly and OB that give appropriate challenge is spiffy.

My point is that OB that gives appropriate challenge is right before our eyes, we just don't want to see it.

Pretty Sweet Picture Though !!!!
Those guys did an Excellent Job !!!!!!! :D

I think my point is that OB that is just unlucky OB is silly. OB that give appropriate challenge is spiffy.





I think a wooded forest, such as a pine forest, where even if you hit a tree just off the fairway, you can still make an easy par save is silly. I like wooded holes where if you get off the fairway, saving par is a miracle.

I think it should be the same as artificial OB. OB should not be used as something just to get in the way of normal play. It should be used to punish the "go for" shots that are poorly played. There should be a "safe par route". But if you want the birdie, you will be punished if you fail.

Play safe, get a par.
Go for gusto and succeed, BIRDIE!
Go for gusto and fall short, BOGEY!

This situation sounds like poor course design to me. Sounds like the sidewalk basically goes through the fairway.

I think a wooded forest, such as a pine forest, where even if you hit a tree just off the fairway, you can still make an easy par save is silly. I like wooded holes where if you get off the fairway, saving par is a miracle.



This is exactly what I have at my house. Thick pine forrest with a fairway carved through it. No need for OB on those holes. The only OB I have is if you leave the property. Comes into play on the first hole because the property line is about 50 feet to the right of the pin.

In my opinion, artificial OB (or mandos for that matter) with no other purpose than adding challenge is rather lame.

If you're playing a course for the first time, you expect water hazards, paved surfaces, picnic areas and playgrounds to be OB. You shouldn't have to carry a course guide to consult before every tee shot and approach to be aware of hidden artificial OB.

I fully understand there are areas such as the reparian area at Lehigh and the rock garden at Jordan which needs to be protected. I also understand OB or mandos to separate fairways and promote safety. I just feel a good course design shouldn't rely on abundant unnatural OB lines to add challenge.

As far as the 05 worlds OB goes, I heard some whining, but overall (with maybe the exception of hole 10 Tinicum) I thought it was fair and made sense.



Generally speaking, I agree with you Steve. But where a course lacks enough natural obstacles and OB lines can be used to provide "reasonable" challenges where there basically was "no" challenge is a useful tool for a sport that can not afford backhows, bulldozers, tree plantings, or to redirect waterways.

I agree that such use should be limited, but when used properly the results can be profound (the 2 holes I sited).

It should be used to punish the "go for" shots that are poorly played. There should be a "safe par route". But if you want the birdie, you will be punished if you fail.



I agree. Artificial OB should be designed to increase the challenge on the Birdie lines, and not increase the difficulty on the safe routes where avoidable. You shouldn't make it tougher to take a par (3,4,5) on the hole with artificial OB, but you should make it difficult to shortcut the hole.