I have alway had trouble throwing midrange type of discs. Specifically I am thinking of a hole on a local couse that is about 150'. It's tight with trees on both side.

The problem for me is that I can throw it nice and straight and it usually lands short, often 20 feet short which leads to a tough putt. If I try to put more power on it it goes way understable on me and dives right. This happened in the past and I have used drivers for midrange, but recently have put an emphasis on learning how to throw a midrange disc.

I am much more likely to birdie any other hole on the course then this shortest one. Partly because it has become my nemesis, and partly because I am not confident with my midrange technique.

Any Ideas? If I was to drive a long hole I would have a two finger power grip, and for short shots I use a fan grip. I cant find anything that works for my mids though.

I am much more likely to birdie any other hole on the course then this shortest one. Partly because it has become my nemesis, and partly because I am not confident with my midrange technique.



You answered your question right there. You have created a mental block on this hole. At only 150ft, unless the fairway is only 3ft wide most players should easily get a 2 on the hole.

I have a few questions for you before I can answer you.

How dense is the foilage on this hole? Can you even see the basket?

What midranges are you using? And what weights?

What is your max golf distance? And with what disc?

How long have you been playing, and how often do you play?

Personally on a hole of that distance I tend to use my putter, that is why I am asking you these questions, you may not be able to throw a putter that far yet.

Personally on a hole of that distance I tend to use my putter, that is why I am asking you these questions, you may not be able to throw a putter that far yet.



When you say you throw your putter, do you mean you throw 'A' putter? I carry 2 putters in my bag. One is a 168 Soft Wizard for putting, the other is a 175 Medium Wizard for drives like this. I was under the assumpion that this was a pretty standard procedure.

Im with you Pat. I carry 4 Putters. 1 for putting and 3 for upshots and driving.

I would also throw a putter on this hole that you are describing :D

Putters are not as reliable over 150 feet as a midrange!

Putters are not as reliable over 150 feet as a midrange!



I throw a medium wizard on shots about 225 and in because there is little fade and the disc is very slow so it lands nice and soft. I will pick up a Buzz or a Wasp if I'm beyond that point. Generally speaking I throw my mid ranges off the tee more than I ever do from in the fairway or the rough. I feel I'm accurate to with 10ft of the basket up to 70 yards out with my medium wizard. By comparison the buzz gives me a wider spread on the shot due to its glide/speed/fade.

I throw a medium wizard on shots about 225 and in because there is little fade and the disc is very slow so it lands nice and soft. I will pick up a Buzz or a Wasp if I'm beyond that point. Generally speaking I throw my mid ranges off the tee more than I ever do from in the fairway or the rough. I feel I'm accurate to with 10ft of the basket up to 70 yards out with my medium wizard. By comparison the buzz gives me a wider spread on the shot due to its glide/speed/fade.



EXACTLY the same reason I carry my medium wizard.

Putters are not as reliable over 150 feet as a midrange!



I disagree. Putters will remain very "stable" (the straight kind of stable, not the overstable kind of stable) at those distances and as long as you have the height they are very accurate. You have to throw a midrange just right to get it to land where you want it to at 150' away and probably need some room off to the right (RHBH) to compensate for the enevitable strong fade and skip/roll. They just won't reach their natural crusising speed unless you throw them so they hit the ground before they fade out. I find that much less accurate than throwing a slow air shot that lands where you're aiming.

I came from an ultimate background and have been throwing putters for just about everything under 200' since I started and I don't have a big arm. You'd be suprised how much you use a putter if you get good at throwing them.

I think it's about time I look into Gateway discs. Never threw one other than this hemp Wizard I got. You can actually see little specks of hemp in it.

I have honestly found my new "get out of jail" disc with this one. I asked everyone here about replacing an old aviar I threw for years and everyone said get a wizard......sometimes the advice around these parts is purdy darn good!!!
;)

I have alway had trouble throwing midrange type of discs. Specifically I am thinking of a hole on a local couse that is about 150'. It's tight with trees on both side.

The problem for me is that I can throw it nice and straight and it usually lands short, often 20 feet short which leads to a tough putt. If I try to put more power on it it goes way understable on me and dives right. This happened in the past and I have used drivers for midrange, but recently have put an emphasis on learning how to throw a midrange disc.

I am much more likely to birdie any other hole on the course then this shortest one. Partly because it has become my nemesis, and partly because I am not confident with my midrange technique.

Any Ideas? If I was to drive a long hole I would have a two finger power grip, and for short shots I use a fan grip. I cant find anything that works for my mids though.



Similar situation to yours we have a hole locally that the short pin is about 170ft, but it basically 135 ft straight, fairway is wooded on each side and approximately 40ft wide, then at the 135ft mark the hole shoots back about 35ft to the right. Basically its a narrow upside down L. My thought since my forehand sucks and I end up out about 115ft with a terrible lie if I try it is to play for par and throw a wizard straight land in the clear where I have a long birdie attempt. Anhyzer shots won't work(unless you get super lucky) so I'm trying to learn a reliable thumber or to throw lefty accurate enough to make the turn. This game is all about risk vs reward for me. If I had the hole you described I would just work on throwing a slow speed disc(putter type) down the pipe and work on the putting.

Ranger....I used to have the same problem with midranges/approach such as Rocs and Classic Rocs coming up short of my target or dying out. With Rocs you have to give a good snap to max out its distance. Also try releasing them more nose up, not a lot, just enough to cause it to arc on its flight. You will get more carry and they don't hyzer out high like a driver if you put enough snap on it.

When you say you throw your putter, do you mean you throw 'A' putter? I carry 2 putters in my bag. One is a 168 Soft Wizard for putting, the other is a 175 Medium Wizard for drives like this. I was under the assumpion that this was a pretty standard procedure.



You are correct. I only have one mold of putter, but three different plastics. I use the Challenger. I have the Pro-D and CT for putts depending on wind and approach angle, and I use a Crystal Challenger for approaches less than 250 ft.

Putters are very reliable for short distance shots, put them on the line and they hardly fade, unless you have mechanical issues and flip them over.

Try throwing with a fan grip, I usually fan grip my midranges on a shorter hole if I dont throw a putter, but also get comfortable throwin with your normal grip too, practice, practice, practice....I use to be the worse at throwing midrange discs, know its just like any other disc.......

I have alway had trouble throwing midrange type of discs....The problem for me is that I can throw it nice and straight and it usually lands short...If I try to put more power on it it goes way understable on me and dives right. This happened in the past and I have used drivers for midrange, but recently have put an emphasis on learning how to throw a midrange disc.


You are probably getting some flutter on your release. An overstable driver will cover this up quite well, but a midrange won't. A good midrange throw for a decent distance requires a nice smooth release without the flutter. Doesn't matter what brand you use. Midranges are slow flying discs so when you crank them up they need to be flutter-free to get through the initial part of the flight so that they can get downrange and really float/glide.

Work on getting a clean release by throwing middies in a field. You'll be amazed at how far they can fly once you start getting a clean release. You'll also pick up about 20 or 30 feet on driver shots, if this is in fact the trouble you are having.

Just learn to throw putters on anything inside 250 unless you need the stability and youll be fine :D Youd be amazed how far you can throw a putter once you learn to throw it right :D

Yeah the only time I throw mids for less than 250' shots is when there is a lot of wind or the ceiling is low.

If I try to put more power on it it goes way understable on me and dives right.



this is off axis torque. basically, you are doing something in your throw forcing the disc to fly this way. my guess it is in the form of a wrist roll or diving your throwing shoulder over during the rotation. this is incredibly common, especially with the techniques developed by players trying to throw discs that are too fast/overstable for their power level.

a set of drills to work on with mids/putters that i recommend are throwing steep angle hyzers that you pull out to the right and let fade back to the left. your ideal flight is one in which the disc holds the same angle the entire flight. this will force you to release pure. if the disc flattens (assuming you are throwing a stable disc), you are finishing poorly/off axis. once you have corrected this "finish" problem, you can try to throw flatter and incorporate what you have learned from the hyzer drills. you may also find a shortened reach back helpful.

the downside/upside of this is that once you develop a solid midrange technique, you will probably end up revamping your driving technique as well, which is a good thing for long term skill development, but bad for your short run consistency.

I have a few questions for you before I can answer you.

How dense is the foilage on this hole? Can you even see the basket?

Oh yeah, it just has one large confier on the left and three trees on the right. With the three trees on the right its impossible to throw a hyzer

What midranges are you using? And what weights?

I have used a crtyztal buzz that I found. There is no weight on it but I would say it's 170 or so.

What is your max golf distance? And with what disc?

Max distance is around 350 with Orc, Valk and Viking mostly, depending on the hole and how I'm throwing.

How long have you been playing, and how often do you play?

I have played for 6 years, every other day or every day when the weather is okay.

Personally on a hole of that distance I tend to use my putter, that is why I am asking you these questions, you may not be able to throw a putter that far yet.

I have tried my Rhino with similar results. I feel like if I try to throw it too hard, it's diving down to the right.

If I try to put more power on it it goes way understable on me and dives right.



this is off axis torque. basically, you are doing something in your throw forcing the disc to fly this way. my guess it is in the form of a wrist roll or diving your throwing shoulder over during the rotation. this is incredibly common, especially with the techniques developed by players trying to throw discs that are too fast/overstable for their power level.

a set of drills to work on with mids/putters that i recommend are throwing steep angle hyzers that you pull out to the right and let fade back to the left. your ideal flight is one in which the disc holds the same angle the entire flight. this will force you to release pure. if the disc flattens (assuming you are throwing a stable disc), you are finishing poorly/off axis. once you have corrected this "finish" problem, you can try to throw flatter and incorporate what you have learned from the hyzer drills. you may also find a shortened reach back helpful.

the downside/upside of this is that once you develop a solid midrange technique, you will probably end up revamping your driving technique as well, which is a good thing for long term skill development, but bad for your short run consistency.



Whats off axis? My wrist or the disc? I get the same results (dive to the right) if I use anything that isnt overstable with drivers too. It seems to be exagerated into the wind as well.

To get used to the big rim on Putters and Mid Ranges, I modified my grip from a power grip, to a pinch grip. With the pinch grip, I allow the pads of my fingers to rest on the underside of the disc, opposed to the rim of the disc. My index finger rests on the underside of the rim.
Using this grip, I have found I can put more into my shot without the disc coming out floppy and diving to the right. Of course this felt a bit weird at first, but has grown to become very comfortable and effective.

Putters are not as reliable over 150 feet as a midrange!



I use a SS wizard and an "e" wiz up to 375 whe there is a decent ceiling and up to 290' with a low ceiling. :o

Whats off axis? My wrist or the disc? I get the same results (dive to the right) if I use anything that isnt overstable with drivers too. It seems to be exagerated into the wind as well.



if this happens with drivers too then it is definitely off-axis torque.

if you think of the desired release plane/angle of the disc, then all force should ideally be directed on or parallel to that plane. off axis torque = force that is NOT parallel to the plane.

if you were trying to throw a 30 degree hyzer angle, the plane of the disc is the two dimensional region parallel to the disc (a 30 degree angle) and passing through its center of mass. if you hold this angle and then throw on a flat plane, the force is directed at a 0 degree angle, whereas the disc is at 30, the result will be that the disc is more apt to flatten up and turn over since that is the direction of the force. similarly, things like wrist rolls work like english on a pool ball... they manipulate directional spin but not until the velocity has slowed.

from my experiences working with players and from my own experience, i'm going to wager that yours is grip related due to the disc orientation. chances are you are rolling without even knowing it as you must to get the nose down if the disc placement in your hand is not true. i suggest taking a look at the grip article on my site and seeing how your grip compares.

Just learn to throw putters on anything inside 250 unless you need the stability and youll be fine Youd be amazed how far you can throw a putter once you learn to throw it right




Or Not.
Puterrs, inherenlty lack stability .... hence the name "putter"

There is no law taht says you must throw some thing other than a driver on your second & third shots. I see newbies do this all the time.They hit an early tree, then try to make the green from 200 w.a putter?

The problem is, unless you are really good, like Rico or Doss, you will tend to turn the putter over when you throw it that hard, and not hyzer back toward the basket. For a typical backhander, that means even if they manage to get pin high, you are probably now 40 feet or more right of the basket.

On the other hand, you could throw and understable driver from 100- 300 and have amuch better idea of what the disc will actually do with turning over.

You don't have to throw it as hard, and can focus on your accuracy more.

Whats off axis? My wrist or the disc? I get the same results (dive to the right) if I use anything that isnt overstable with drivers too. It seems to be exagerated into the wind as well.



if this happens with drivers too then it is definitely off-axis torque.

if you think of the desired release plane/angle of the disc, then all force should ideally be directed on or parallel to that plane. off axis torque = force that is NOT parallel to the plane.

if you were trying to throw a 30 degree hyzer angle, the plane of the disc is the two dimensional region parallel to the disc (a 30 degree angle) and passing through its center of mass. if you hold this angle and then throw on a flat plane, the force is directed at a 0 degree angle, whereas the disc is at 30, the result will be that the disc is more apt to flatten up and turn over since that is the direction of the force. similarly, things like wrist rolls work like english on a pool ball... they manipulate directional spin but not until the velocity has slowed.

from my experiences working with players and from my own experience, i'm going to wager that yours is grip related due to the disc orientation. chances are you are rolling without even knowing it as you must to get the nose down if the disc placement in your hand is not true. i suggest taking a look at the grip article on my site and seeing how your grip compares.



I have read your site almost completely (very, very impressive by the way... a true tool for all discers out there, thank you)

The grip I chose if I was to throw a driver with power is the two finger grip. It looks like the picture on your site, but that doesnt mean that that it isnt being altered when I am throwing. That grip feels uncomfortable to me with a midrange disc. If I'm in close enough I use a fan grip, but thats for touch shots near the basket.

Or Not.
Puterrs, inherenlty lack stability .... hence the name "putter"

There is no law taht says you must throw some thing other than a driver on your second & third shots. I see newbies do this all the time.They hit an early tree, then try to make the green from 200 w.a putter?

The problem is, unless you are really good, like Rico or Doss, you will tend to turn the putter over when you throw it that hard, and not hyzer back toward the basket. For a typical backhander, that means even if they manage to get pin high, you are probably now 40 feet or more right of the basket.

On the other hand, you could throw and understable driver from 100- 300 and have amuch better idea of what the disc will actually do with turning over.

You don't have to throw it as hard, and can focus on your accuracy more.



I dont have to throw a putter very hard to get it out to 250. I just throw nice and smooth with lots of spin and snap. The thing is unless you are in a wide open hole you dont want your upshot disc to take anything but a straight line and I dont know what putters you have been throwing but my Cam Todd challengers when brand new are OVERSTABLE along with the Crystal Challengers and a nicely warn Pro D challenger is perfect for tunnel shots that you start with hyzer and they flip flat and stay flat. And a BEAT Cam Todd is GREAT for hyzerflip turnovers and big annies and even short range rollers :D

The best way from point at to point be if possible is a STRAIGHT line and thats how putters fly. So if you can learn to throw them 250 on a rope then why not do that???

I can tell you what else has helped me on those type of shots. Just standing still and throwing rather then taking a run up :D

Or Not.
Puterrs, inherenlty lack stability .... hence the name "putter"

There is no law taht says you must throw some thing other than a driver on your second & third shots. I see newbies do this all the time.They hit an early tree, then try to make the green from 200 w.a putter?

The problem is, unless you are really good, like Rico or Doss, you will tend to turn the putter over when you throw it that hard, and not hyzer back toward the basket. For a typical backhander, that means even if they manage to get pin high, you are probably now 40 feet or more right of the basket.

On the other hand, you could throw and understable driver from 100- 300 and have amuch better idea of what the disc will actually do with turning over.

You don't have to throw it as hard, and can focus on your accuracy more.



I disagree that you have to be a good player to throw your putters 250' with accuracy. I'm not registered with the PDGA and haven't played any tournaments, but I'm willing to bet my rating would be in the sub 900 range and I have parked these holes (several times each) with a putter from the long pad:

http://www.playdg.com/rosland/?h=4

http://www.playdg.com/rosland/?h=5

http://www.playdg.com/rosland/?h=9

I've only recently been able to throw putters that far, but I'm getting more and more consistant with them.

Puterrs, inherenlty lack stability .... hence the name "putter"

There is no law taht says you must throw some thing other than a driver on your second & third shots. I see newbies do this all the time.They hit an early tree, then try to make the green from 200 w.a putter?

The problem is, unless you are really good, like Rico or Doss, you will tend to turn the putter over when you throw it that hard, and not hyzer back toward the basket. For a typical backhander, that means even if they manage to get pin high, you are probably now 40 feet or more right of the basket.

On the other hand, you could throw and understable driver from 100- 300 and have amuch better idea of what the disc will actually do with turning over.

You don't have to throw it as hard, and can focus on your accuracy more.



I have to agree with this. I can throw my putter, but I am more consistent throwing a shark or a wasp at 75% or even 40% than I am trying to inch out every bit of my putter ... add in the chance of it flipping, and I end up with a great recipe for inconsistancy.

Maybe it's my putt'r sucks as an long up disc, or a driver, but it's great at controlled loft putts, and straddle putts.

I've thought about getting a wizard (or a stack of them) at the recomendation of this forum for approach shots and short drives....but my wasp does such a great job at it.

I think the natural progression is to first throw drivers with "touch" for upshots. Then you start throwing mid-ranges for upshots. Next you move to throwing midranges for short drives. Then you realize that a putter can do more than putt, so you start upshotting with a putter mold. And finally you start driving with a putter mold on the shortest holes.

No need to jump to driving with putters if you are trying to get the feel for the mid-range. It will come with time.

Just work on a clean release with the mid-range for now.

FWIW, a new KC Aviar is amazingly overstable. I carry a beat up JK Aviar for putting and straight upshots/runs at the basket, and a KC Avair for most other upshots and short drives. I use the KC when I want to skip to the pin, which is most of the time on a true upshot, and the JK when I want to attack the basket but not skip away.

I think the natural progression is to first throw drivers with "touch" for upshots. Then you start throwing mid-ranges for upshots. Next you move to throwing midranges for short drives. Then you realize that a putter can do more than putt, so you start upshotting with a putter mold. And finally you start driving with a putter mold on the shortest holes.


That's exactly what I did since starting last year, nice post.

Ranger
Sounds like you may have the same problem that I had and still do from time to time. Form/wrist/shoulder roll issues. With Blake's help and much field work I was able to fix most of it. I still shank one from time to time but they are getting less and less now. I will tell you that it was not easy to do and it will make your game worse before it gets better. Don't let this discourage you, I now throw less stable discs just as far (and without flipping them) as I used to throw stable stuff except now I am using far less power (say 60%. Once I get everything grooved in and pour on some of this reserve power I should be able to break 400 or more). Keep in mind, before this I was stuck at 275 for 6 months no matter what I tried. I could have gone the route of just throwing more stable discs but I feel that I am a better player now and in the future because of taking care of this. Definately happier.

I think the natural progression is to first throw drivers with "touch" for upshots. Then you start throwing mid-ranges for upshots. Next you move to throwing midranges for short drives. Then you realize that a putter can do more than putt, so you start upshotting with a putter mold. And finally you start driving with a putter mold on the shortest holes.


That's exactly what I did since starting last year, nice post.

Ranger
Sounds like you may have the same problem that I had and still do from time to time. Form/wrist/shoulder roll issues. With Blake's help and much field work I was able to fix most of it. I still shank one from time to time but they are getting less and less now. I will tell you that it was not easy to do and it will make your game worse before it gets better. Don't let this discourage you, I now throw less stable discs just as far (and without flipping them) as I used to throw stable stuff except now I am using far less power (say 60%. Once I get everything grooved in and pour on some of this reserve power I should be able to break 400 or more). Keep in mind, before this I was stuck at 275 for 6 months no matter what I tried. I could have gone the route of just throwing more stable discs but I feel that I am a better player now and in the future because of taking care of this. Definately happier.




I am kinda confused on what wrist/shoulder roll is...? I went out today and really tried to focus on my technique, but I am not really sure what needs fixing. I tried shooting with no run-up and my results were the same.

I found a pic of the hole I am thinking of...
Hole #3 (http://www.uwsp.edu/stuorg/discgolf/DiscGolfCourses/MeadPark/Pictures/MeadParkDiscGolfCoursePictures.htm#Fairway3)

The tree that is right in front of the basket is now gone, it is a basically a straight shot. I want to be able to have a chance at aceing it with a midrange, but my best efforts are ending up low and short. It is usually still a birdie, but this is a pretty easy ace hole and I want to shoot for one not a lay-up type of shot.

If I used a driver I could shoot it with 33% power and go for the ace, but when I try my buzzz with full power (as much as I can without flipping it) my flight ends up 6 feet high and 15 feet short most of the time.

As a side note, this course is in Stevens Point, Wisconsin and I'll bet Barry Shultz groomed some of his skills on this course too ;)

What I would do on that hole, since the upper left is open is take your Buzzz, release it with a slow high anhyzer and let the stability of the disc make it do a wide sweeping S-shot.

Or you can take a hyzer route, since that last tree is not there and play the skip. That is one nice characteristic of champion/Z plastic, is that it will skip.

For me, I would just run my Crystal Challenger right at it.

That course reminds me of one we have in Montgomery AL, at Auburn Univiersity Montgomery. 4600ft, flat and wide open. Course record is -17 because the only long hole 412ft slight down hill was over shot by 40ft.

I had a hard time throwing any distance with a midrange or putter until a couple of months ago. What I did was started going to a putt putt course in a small park where the 9 holes range from 178 - 280 feet long. I started leaving my drivers in the car and started throwing only my 171 z-Buzzz 169 s-Element-X and my 175 Champ. Rhyno.

I had done this for the last 2 months at first the results were pretty bad, but I just kept at it. Now I can play this course just with my Rhyno and reach nearly all the pins. I can getmy Element-X, Buzzz and my Rhyno to go where ever I want them to, (except when I'm putting, but that's a different thread) :confused:

I have now noticed that when I have gone to my home course which is longer and more wooded I tend to use my Buzzz Element-X, and Rhyno where I used to use my drivers, Beast and Teebird, on probably 75% of my drives now or anything under 275 or so.

It seems like a long time since I've thrown a driver, but I think my ability to get the discs to go where I want them to go has greatly improved since I started playing this way. Also its a great feeling throwing your mids and putters the same distance as some peoples drivers. :D

Maybe it's my putt'r sucks as an long up disc, or a driver, but it's great at controlled loft putts, and straddle putts.




The Putt'r is very understable as a driver. I've heard some people have it in their bag for short anhyzers.

I also agree with Rhett's progression he outlined. I went through the exact same thing. I just don't think you have to be a top player to get to the end of it. You can still be crappy and be able to throw stable to overstable putters as short drivers.

I have now noticed that when I have gone to my home course which is longer and more wooded I tend to use my Buzzz Element-X, and Rhyno where I used to use my drivers, Beast and Teebird, on probably 75% of my drives now or anything under 275 or so.

It seems like a long time since I've thrown a driver, but I think my ability to get the discs to go where I want them to go has greatly improved since I started playing this way. Also its a great feeling throwing your mids and putters the same distance as some peoples drivers. :D



It is a great feeling when standing at a 350ft hole and the other guys in your group take out their max drivers and you pull out a midrange.

The better feeling was one that I had in the last tournament I played, my partner and I were throwing Teebirds where the other guys threw Orcs. And on a 385ft flat hole, I out drove the hole by 50-60ft and my partner puts it 30ft behind the basket as well. The other guys, who were in the lead at that point only got theirs within 30ft before the basket. Lesson from that. Throwing far means squat unless you throw it accurately. I do not consider 50-60ft accurate by any means.

When those guys ended up beating us by one stroke which we gave up on the last hole; one of them commented, "we don't know how we held them off (3 stroke lead going into the final round), Kris can throw a Roc further then I can throw an Orc." Of course, it was their home course and we (my partner and I) had never played it before.

Also, as your personal skills develop, you will learn how to control the discs and get the maximum distance out of them. And eventually, if you have a tight short wooded course as your home course you may never pick up a driver on your home course again.

I think the natural progression is to first throw drivers with "touch" for upshots. Then you start throwing mid-ranges for upshots. Next you move to throwing midranges for short drives. Then you realize that a putter can do more than putt, so you start upshotting with a putter mold. And finally you start driving with a putter mold on the shortest holes.


That's exactly what I did since starting last year, nice post.

Ranger
Sounds like you may have the same problem that I had and still do from time to time. Form/wrist/shoulder roll issues. With Blake's help and much field work I was able to fix most of it. I still shank one from time to time but they are getting less and less now. I will tell you that it was not easy to do and it will make your game worse before it gets better. Don't let this discourage you, I now throw less stable discs just as far (and without flipping them) as I used to throw stable stuff except now I am using far less power (say 60%. Once I get everything grooved in and pour on some of this reserve power I should be able to break 400 or more). Keep in mind, before this I was stuck at 275 for 6 months no matter what I tried. I could have gone the route of just throwing more stable discs but I feel that I am a better player now and in the future because of taking care of this. Definately happier.




I am kinda confused on what wrist/shoulder roll is...? I went out today and really tried to focus on my technique, but I am not really sure what needs fixing. I tried shooting with no run-up and my results were the same.

I found a pic of the hole I am thinking of...
Hole #3 (http://www.uwsp.edu/stuorg/discgolf/DiscGolfCourses/MeadPark/Pictures/MeadParkDiscGolfCoursePictures.htm#Fairway3)

The tree that is right in front of the basket is now gone, it is a basically a straight shot. I want to be able to have a chance at aceing it with a midrange, but my best efforts are ending up low and short. It is usually still a birdie, but this is a pretty easy ace hole and I want to shoot for one not a lay-up type of shot.

If I used a driver I could shoot it with 33% power and go for the ace, but when I try my buzzz with full power (as much as I can without flipping it) my flight ends up 6 feet high and 15 feet short most of the time.

As a side note, this course is in Stevens Point, Wisconsin and I'll bet Barry Shultz groomed some of his skills on this course too ;)



There are 3 shots I would consider:

1. Wizard with very slight anhyzer to flat type release and let it work from left to right.

2. Buzz with high anhyzer and let the disc do the work. I would be afraid of the glide over shooting this hole.

3. Buzz with a hyzer type skip shot.

I listed these in the order I feel would give me the lowest average score if I played the hole 10 times in a row.

Its different for everyone what they would throw and what feels good however if I had never seen that hole I would done my # 1 without much consideration for the other two options.

ranger: do you throw sidearm at all? Hole 3 is fairly wide open on the left. A sidearm shot would hyzer around the tree on the left nicely. Not sure if I would throw a putter on this hole because I have found the putters need more height than a midrange or driver. A midrange like a buzz/wasp/roc would probably work if you put just a little bit of hyzer on it and let it flip up flat.

I am kinda confused on what wrist/shoulder roll is...? I went out today and really tried to focus on my technique, but I am not really sure what needs fixing. I tried shooting with no run-up and my results were the same.



wrist roll = twisting your wrist during the throw, simlar to throwing a slider/screwball. if you were throwing a flat shot with no roll over/under, when you enter your follow through your palm will be perpendicular to the ground. a roll under means your palm is facing downwards, a roll over means your palm is facing somewhat upwards.

there really is no shoulder "roll" so to speak, but it is more of a dive. on a good pull the throwing shoulder will rise up and then back down late. what i see many players do is drop that shoulder over immediately after the rip like they are throwing an anhyzer or roller. the result is torque on the throw that makes the disc flip.

if i had a dime for every time i had to work with someone on a shoulder dive problem i'd have like four bucks. 90% of the time this can be traced to people's disc selection early on in their game. i'm still going wager yours is grip related.

as for the comments on putters not being predictable, it depends on how you try to throw them and what putter you use. actually, what putter you use is MORE important than how you throw them, as a disc that can handle a real throw must first be present. i won't throw a putter that won't fly 300' stable.

putters that exist (and currently in production) that will fly 300' stable:
big bead aviar - kc/jk/champion
challenger - d/x/crystal
wizard - s/h/e
magnet - d/z
titanic (basically a z magnet)
rhyno - d/pro/champ
bulldog - dx
with the right touch, an aviar putter/omega can do it too.

if your putter is not one of those on the list, i wouldn't assume your putter will fly stable more than ~200' (or often less).

if i don't feel comfortable throwing my putter i generally default to a super overstable lawn dart of a driver before i throw a midrange on anything below 175' or so, as midranges just don't get up and down in the same way a putter/lawn dart will.

The Putt'r is very understable as a driver. I've heard some people have it in their bag for short anhyzers.

I also agree with Rhett's progression he outlined. I went through the exact same thing. I just don't think you have to be a top player to get to the end of it. You can still be crappy and be able to throw stable to overstable putters as short drivers.



but the right equipment is helpful... I think that's what i don't have.

I actually won a six pack from my brother on a very similar discussion. Looking at a ~200' upshot he told me to just use my putter. I tossed it to him and bet him a six that he couldn't get it 200' - he turned it over, and he bought the cold ones after the round. :cool:

Will you make the same bet with me??? :D

Do yourself a favor and pick up a stack of Pro D challengers or Wizards or Big Bead Aviars and get your upshot game going :D

I think the Challenger is the best but I am slightly biased :D

I throw very little sidearm... that's another thread, lol. It does work well for many on this hole though. As does a tomahawk.

Blake - I will try to see how my palm ends up after release. I am trying to visualize it now and it seems that I might be rolling over a bit. I will have to try full speed though to see for sure. Do I want my hand totally perpendicular? that seems a bit alkward, but I will give it a whirl.

Also, what the heck is a lawn dart?

KCLofty: the putt'r is one of the flippiest putt & approach discs on the market. it is more understable than an apx or a rattler. i am lucky to put them beyond about 110' stable.


Blake - I will try to see how my palm ends up after release. I am trying to visualize it now and it seems that I might be rolling over a bit. I will have to try full speed though to see for sure. Do I want my hand totally perpendicular? that seems a bit alkward, but I will give it a whirl.



basically, you just don't want an abrupt change in the orientation that will cause an off-kilter tilte of the disc if that makes any sense. if you play tennis/ping pong, think top spin. you are still hitting forwards but applying additional forces to make the ball change direction in flight. it doesn't have to be exactly perpendicular, but if the rip happens when you are perpendicular and then it changes to a very different orientation than that... that is a change that will make the disc fly differently.

the reason i bring up disc orientation during grip is that you can actually have a "virtual" wrist roll without even rolling your wrist. if the placement is below the seam, a nose down throw will require a twist of the disc to nose down that will cause the same behavior as a roll over.


Also, what the heck is a lawn dart?



a now banned lawn game that used to involve 2 hoops and some big, heavy darts with long metal tips. you would throw them from a distance and try to get them to stick into the ground inside the hoop. basically, like 23984023934289043 kids lost an eye or died and they eventually banned the game in like 1984.

the reason i use the expression for disc is that i often want an abrupt up and down arc. i will throw a disc nearly vertical and let it just fly in a straight line between myself and the target. it either sticks into the ground on impact or gets a big bounce and imo, it mimics the flight of a lawn dart. i generally use overstable discs for this since they will fight the hardest to pull towards the ground.

true lawn dart discs will land like that when thrown nearly flat :P

Also, what the heck is a lawn dart?



An implement of Death that our grandparents had at their house. It was made into a game where my sister and I would stand 30ft apart from each other behind a 1 meter diameter ring and throw these super sharp 18 inch long darts at each other and try to land the dart in the ring.

Some kids died from being impaled and they banned them in the early 80's late 70's.

It was a really fun game.

true lawn dart discs will land like that when thrown nearly flat :P


I just got a 172 Champ Monster a couple days ago. I know what you are talking about. Wow for an overstable pig. I might have to take it out behind the barn and rough it up a little.

Try a first run Z Extreme :eek: :D

LOL I know what the real lawn darts are, just not in terms of disc golf. Dont they make safety impared ones now?

Well I am about to go play a round with some friends... we'll see what happens, i'll try to remember some of these tips you guys pointed out. Its frusterating that I can park it on a 300' hole for a gimme and I have to make a 10-20' foot putt on a 150' hole :confused:.

Dont they make safety impared ones now?



yes, with the same two hoops, except for the "darts" no longer have points on the ends, nor are they sharp, shaped like darts, etc. they are basically plastic sticks with blunt domes that look like mushrooms on 1 end.

Start with a Putter . Try to drive with a Putter type of disc.
It will help improve your accuracy.

Next , for distance midrange , throw and practice with the Roc. Now , if your able to drive a Roc , that's all you will need for midrange shots. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Try a first run Z Extreme :eek: :D



...or a Proto "Edge"!!!

Throw a Putter !!!!

I have the same type of trouble when I throw a putter as I do with a midrange.