What the heck is the deal with people whining about having to move up to a higher division ?? Are they upset just because they won't get to dominate like they once did in the lower Divisions ??

I mean to me competition is what its all about. And always striving to better yourselves with new challenges.

I just started DG about 10 months ago. I have been full force at it since the beginning. I am fixing to enter my first Tourney next month. I talked with the TD concerning the Divisions and he said since its my first Tourney to enter Intermediate. I told him I was planning on entering Advance. He advised I might try Intermediate and then next Tourney turn Advance.

I considered this but I decided I wanted go against the best as soon as possible. I think I have a great chance of winning Intermediate based on looking at last years scores at this tourney on the same course. But like I said I am a stubborn competitor who wants to "rain" on as many good DG players' parades as I can !! :o So Advance it is !! And then hopefully in late Fall or early Winter, Pro Division will be attainable........

I say Fu** all the accolades, trophies, cash or whatever you get in the lower Divisions. Frankly, I could give a rats ***** about any of that!! To me its all about Mano a Mano !!! And trying to beat the snot out of the best player on the Course.............

So if you are good enough to move up then take pride in the fact that your skills and hard work have gotten you to a Level where you can reach new heights and challenge and compete against better players. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Personally, all I want to do someday maybe in a few years is to go against the likes of Coda and his fellow Jedis :cool:


:

You are rare in that line of thinking. Only the few who truly want to succeed make the jump out of bagger land to compete with the big boys.

This soon to be bagger will be moving up in Janurary.

Some people will just never move on... it confuses me as well...

I am a big fan of cutting Am payouts in exchange for lower entry fees probably bringing in more players :) Some people are just merchandise whores. There just needs to be more incentives for people to move up, some just dont have the time it takes to put into the game to be that competetive in a tougher division.

Cut entry fees, go to trophy only.

I met guys at the Bowling Green Am's who sold the plastic they won out of their trunk to pay their way to tour the country playing tournaments.

You cannot sell a trophy for profit. I do not mind people waiting to play Am worlds for a shot at winning for one year. But making a career out of being advanced, and WINNING! Come on, move on.

I think that a top advanced player should be able to brake even with tournament cost: entry fee, hotel, and gas. If the sport goes to low entry fees and trophy only tournaments then the top advanced player will only play in their region, and will be shocked when they turn pro and have to pay higher entry fees and play courses that they have never played before since it wasn't profitable to play them before.

I think that a top advanced player should be able to brake even with tournament cost: entry fee, hotel, and gas. If the sport goes to low entry fees and trophy only tournaments then the top advanced player will only play in their region, and will be shocked when they turn pro and have to pay higher entry fees and play courses that they have never played before since it wasn't profitable to play them before.



Since when is being an amateur supposed to be profitable?

I never said that it should be profitable, only that it should get you ready to play Open with out costing you an arm and a leg.

basically the only reason one person calls another a bagger is cuz they either....

1. Know this person will beat them and fear having to play them.

2. Want this person to move up to thier division b/c they know they can beat them.

I went through the bagger stuff at the end of my advanced career and the people calling me bagger was the adv. guys that usually didnt me. The other top adv. players never really said a word to me....

One solution is to implement a rating cap on winning in prizes in advanced.

This is not an idea I am really comfortable with, but it would discourage players with pro level ratings from staying in advanced for profits sake.

Or a cap on winnings for a high rated advanced player at 3-4 x entry, but this would be a pain for the TD to implement.

what's a bagger??? :DAM4life!! :D

Some people juts don't have the skills to move up and be competitive. It's a fact of life. The ratings are very accurate for these people with "stable games". So just because someone has been playing for 5 years/10 years/whatever time doesn't mean they can or should play pro.

Sure there are a couple of players each year that should move up. But really, it's not the huge issue that so many people try to make it out to be. Most of the people who are winning stuff Advanced are not touring the country on the profits. And most of the guys who are winning in Advanced this year will be playing in Open next year. (And disappearing from tourney play shortly after that.) Very rarely does someone keep sticking around in Advanced year after year. Yes it happens, but you count the guys who fit in that category on one hand and have fingers to spare.

And that makes it very very rare and not even a big deal like everyone likes to try and say it is.

One solution is to implement a rating cap on winning in prizes in advanced.

This is not an idea I am really comfortable with, but it would discourage players with pro level ratings from staying in advanced for profits sake.



I am 100% for a hard ratings cap for MA1, like there is for MA2. As of now, if your pro and have a rating below 955 you can go back down to MA1 for non Majors. What about putting the hard cap at 965 for all tournaments except majors. The reason for that is so that top advanced players would have their desired shot at Am Worlds like so many of them whine about. If someone is rated higher then 965 then inevitably they will cash during the year susequently disqualifying them for Am Worlds. So, the only way a pro rated player would be able to enter Am worlds was that if they never cashed. This does not protect the Majors against bagging, but it does protect the regular tournaments.

But also, to go along with the hard cap rule. A player will not be able to not accept cash just to play in the Worlds. Kind of a catch 22 to weed out the baggers.

The only people that would be upset with that are the current Advanced players who compete in Open and desire to win the Am Worlds. These guys have also turned down cash already.

This would force line of thinking into reality "If your good enough, move up".

I would like the PDGA to actually write a paragraph or something explaining why our system is as it is, or what goals are being achieved by having our present structure. Kind of like a business plan or a coherent strategy. This way, this on-going discussion would have much more focus.

Sorry to say it but if there is a cap put on the Adv. field then there needs to be a pro2 division so all those baggers (10 at most) will have a place to play will the 965 as<font color="black">s</font> has time to progress before they have to play against the 1000+ player that will gladly take their money so you poor sorry as<font color="black">s</font> advanced player can finally cash because the good player finally move out of your division.

Give me Pro2 or I'll stay Advanced for ever.

You guys are chicken...

I would like the PDGA to actually write a paragraph or something explaining why our system is as it is, or what goals are being achieved by having our present structure. Kind of like a business plan or a coherent strategy. This way, this on-going discussion would have much more focus.



System, goals, strategy, plan? PDGA? Hahahahahahahahaha! Thanks James, I needed a laugh. It may take them a while for them to come up with a whole paragraph.

I am 100% for a hard ratings cap for MA1, like there is for MA2. As of now, if your pro and have a rating below 955 you can go back down to MA1 for non Majors. What about putting the hard cap at 965 for all tournaments except majors.



I am fan of that basic concept too. In theory at least. The problem I have with it is that a level set for a hard cap makes sense in some geographies, but is horrible in others.

For instance in Raleigh, NC forcing a 965 player to go Pro is forcing him to pay more money to play and forcing him to donate to the myriad of 980-1025 players in that area. In other areas a 965 rated Pro is all but guaranteed to cash every tournament he plays in.

This trickles down to the lower ratings caps. I have noticed some tournaments around the county that have big advanced fields of 890-920 players with very few higher than that. In those fields the 914 player often is in the plastic (cash). Here in NC 915 players rarely make their entry fee back in winnings in the Adv division...and they are not allowed to play Int.

Sorry to say it but if there is a cap put on the Adv. field then there needs to be a pro2 division so all those baggers (10 at most) will have a place to play will the 965 as<font color="black">s</font> has time to progress before they have to play against the 1000+ player that will gladly take their money so you poor sorry as<font color="black">s</font> advanced player can finally cash because the good player finally move out of your division.



If you directed that comment at me you are grossly mistaken. Because I will be moving up after this season and playing open. I may not have a shot a cashing for a while, but currently in advanced I am guarrenteed to cash at least get last cash. I like competiting for the win, but I would rather play against better players and learn more.

So there. :p

You can call me the anti-bagger. :D

Sorry to say it but if there is a cap put on the Adv. field then there needs to be a pro2 division so all those baggers (10 at most) will have a place to play will the 965 as<font color="black">s</font> has time to progress before they have to play against the 1000+ player that will gladly take their money so you poor sorry as<font color="black">s</font> advanced player can finally cash because the good player finally move out of your division.



If you directed that comment at me you are grossly mistaken. Because I will be moving up after this season and playing open. I may not have a shot a cashing for a while, but currently in advanced I am guarrenteed to cash at least get last cash. I like competiting for the win, but I would rather play against better players and learn more.

So there. :p

You can call me the anti-bagger. :D



I never attack a person only the post.

I think that keeping Advanced open (perhaps change the name to Amateur Open) to all skill levels but making all AM tournaments trophey only is what makes the most sense. If you want prizes you're encouraged to move up rather than sandbag. It would also allow higher rated players who don't care about winning prizes to play in Advanced without being called a 'bagger and it would allow the up and coming players to have the possibility of playing with higher caliber players.

I think some sort of Pro2 division that does have a hard cap would be appropriate as well. There seems to be a gap in the ratings where a "Professional" disc golfer is encouraged to play Open, but not good enough to win money. It would be less expensive to get into than the Pro Open, but more expensive than the Amateur divisions and the payout would be weak compared to Pro Open, but at least those who can't compete at the highest level can still compete for money. From what I understand, there are several very successful sports that have structures similar to this.

I'm not sure that disc golf is fully ready for a structure like this yet, but I think it's a good goal to shoot for. Right now they're just looking to attract and keep as many members as possible. I also agree that professional disc golf won't advance as fast as it could without a clear plan that's communicated to its members.

If the AM devisions go no prizes, you're gonna lose a lot of people who no longer have anything to gain from paying the entry fee. I know that the only reason I'm willing to drive 3 hours(well, be driven 3 hours[thanks cristin]) is the chance of taking home something more than a little momento to remember it by. It doesn't have to be the 10 and 15 disc stacks I've seen given away, but if I can't win something to make 8 hours in a car and a hotel worth it, I'm only gonna attend events within a half hour of me. Now I've played in 6 events that required some (2-3 hours each way) driving, and I've only placed in 1 of those. As soon as I won an MA3 event, I moved up to MA2. EVERY event I've played in as MA2, I have been 1 spot out of DFL. But I have a shot at something to make it worth it. If I was playing for a trophy, I'd rather spend the 15 or 25 dollar entry fee on another disc I might be able to use in the local leagues or in casual rounds. I don't have a huge amount of expendable income, so I consider playing in a tourny being one notch above spending that money on a lotto ticket. This is the same thing that deters most of my friends from playing in tournaments. Most of them are as good or better than me.

I think that keeping Advanced open (perhaps change the name to Amateur Open) to all skill levels but making all AM tournaments trophey only is what makes the most sense. If you want prizes you're encouraged to move up rather than sandbag. It would also allow higher rated players who don't care about winning prizes to play in Advanced without being called a 'bagger and it would allow the up and coming players to have the possibility of playing with higher caliber players.

I think some sort of Pro2 division that does have a hard cap would be appropriate as well. There seems to be a gap in the ratings where a "Professional" disc golfer is encouraged to play Open, but not good enough to win money. It would be less expensive to get into than the Pro Open, but more expensive than the Amateur divisions and the payout would be weak compared to Pro Open, but at least those who can't compete at the highest level can still compete for money. From what I understand, there are several very successful sports that have structures similar to this.

I'm not sure that disc golf is fully ready for a structure like this yet, but I think it's a good goal to shoot for. Right now they're just looking to attract and keep as many members as possible. I also agree that professional disc golf won't advance as fast as it could without a clear plan that's communicated to its members.


I also think there should be a time limit to how long a player can play as a pro2, if we ever have a pro2 division again.

I guess I should have been a little more clear, the entry fees for the AM divisions would have to go down. There's always the oppertunity to make player's packs worth the entry fee if sponsorship is involved, too.

I also think that there need to be more players than we have now for this to work. Tournaments shouldn't need lots of players from far away to join just to fill up. If we get more players and more tournaments then you won't have to drive very far to play in a tournament.

Perhaps I have a different perspective, but I used to play in M:tG tournaments (a collectable card game). There were no divisions (I saw 8 year olds playing pro tour players a few times) and it was at least as expeneive as disc golf to be compeditive. If someone who was rated way higher than you was there you couldn't pick a lower division. You just had to play them and lose. They put out a couple hundred new cards every few months and if you didn't have 4 copies of all the best ones you had almost no chance of winning anything no matter how good you were. You could always play a sealed deck or draft, but you still had to buy the cards there and pay the entrance fee. People still drove hours and hours to compete and paid for all these cards and entrance fees knowing they were going to lose. They play because it's fun. Joining the organization that kept ratings information was free.

Now, there are many major differences between these two sports/games, but the point is that people still spent the money and drove hours to play in tournaments they knew the would lose. In fact, it was exciting to get to play someone who was much, much better than you.

If the AM devisions go no prizes, you're gonna lose a lot of people who no longer have anything to gain from paying the entry fee. I know that the only reason I'm willing to drive 3 hours(well, be driven 3 hours[thanks cristin]) is the chance of taking home something more than a little momento to remember it by. It doesn't have to be the 10 and 15 disc stacks I've seen given away, but if I can't win something to make 8 hours in a car and a hotel worth it, I'm only gonna attend events within a half hour of me. Now I've played in 6 events that required some (2-3 hours each way) driving, and I've only placed in 1 of those. As soon as I won an MA3 event, I moved up to MA2. EVERY event I've played in as MA2, I have been 1 spot out of DFL. But I have a shot at something to make it worth it. If I was playing for a trophy, I'd rather spend the 15 or 25 dollar entry fee on another disc I might be able to use in the local leagues or in casual rounds. I don't have a huge amount of expendable income, so I consider playing in a tourny being one notch above spending that money on a lotto ticket. This is the same thing that deters most of my friends from playing in tournaments. Most of them are as good or better than me.


I agree with you I would not travel over 1.5 hours to play in a trophy only event, while I do travel over 4-5 hours to play in events that I have a chance a winning more than I put in.
If we do go trophy only how do you expect Advanced players to move up and compete with the guys that have been playing for the money spots in a tournament and not just the top three spots that have a trophy, and also expect them to start shelling out the $135 when they had only been paying $15-25.

But what about the chance you won during a Magic tourney? Could you win prizes? I'm not saying the cost should be the major entry barrier, but if I don't have a chance of anything more than memories from a tourney, I don't want to go. I get something memorable from basically every Mini League Tourney I play each week. This week I threw my best round on Goliath(9 Over, around 898 rating) throwing every drive and upshot from a standing throw. I throw on a card with 3-4 good players and I'm almost always the worst score on the card. Definately near the bottom. I play up to their level about half the time, but the other half, I make some mistakes. It's like $3 to play a week, $4 to get into the CTP on our card, total. I've won 2 discs, so I think in the long run I'm about even. I'm not worried about being even because I always have fun at these. I don't have to drive 3 hours and pay $25 to be on the DFL card with 3 other players who are in a foul mood because they shot a poor round and aren't really trying in the second round, ruining the mood. I'm not gonna do that, and I'm not gonna stay in MA2 where that happens if there's not the chance of me stringing 36-48 good holes together and getting into a 'cash' spot. I might show up if the entry fee was $15 and you got a new disc as the players package(like at hudson mills[dmdgs #2]), but if that's all I'm gonna get, I'm gonna play as low as my rating allows so I can avoid being DFL.

But what about the chance you won during a Magic tourney? Could you win prizes?



Yes, but for the tournaments where you traveled to play in them the "normal" player would have about the same chance of winning something as a Rec player cashing in Open. If all you want is the oppertunity to win something then play in Open. ;)

Again, I'm not saying that disc golf should switch to the disc golf format I talked about immediately. I think it should be a goal. I also think that you're right about mini league tournaments being better for the Rec and Intermediate level golfers. That same format is used successfully in many other sports. You most likely will get to play with people that have similar skills as you and you have a better chance of winning something. Regional and national sized events for amateurs should be about the experience of playing in a larger tournament and the prestige of doing well. I'm guessing that they'd have good player's packs as well. If you want to win stuff you should have to pay more and compete with better players. Why should someone with a 914 rating be more deserving of a prize than someone with a 916 rating?

I never attack a person only the post.



It would not have been so bad to take, you at least beat my by 5 strokes in the only tournament were we competed against eachother, Bowling Green. If you did not beat me, then there would have been some words. But it's all good.

Will you be at the Flying Pig Open next month? If I can find a place to stay I will be there. It's only 7.5 hours from Birmingham. Easy drive.

I should be playing in the Pig.