"Practice Throw" is just about the best defined thing there is in the PDGA Rule of Play.

But somehow in spite of this you are not allowed to interpret the clearly written words as they are written. "Intent" and a whole lot of other unquatifiable garbage is always brought up.

According to the rules are currently written, the projection of a disc over 2 meters, or any distance towards a target, that doesn't change your lie is a practice throw.

"Doesn't change your lie" is pretty easy to figure out. It means that you were not at your lie and hence you did not make a legal throw so your lie didn't change.

It's pretty easy to understand and apply this rule as it is currently written. Yet.......

If throw a disc 80 feet to someone else on the course, many will argue that you weren't "practicing" anything. If you throw a disc at another disc stuck in a tree, many will argue that weren't "practicing". If you play from somewhere that you though was your lie but it turns out that it wasn't, many will argue that you were "intending to throw your shot, so it's not practice."


So what the heck is a practice throw???


I think we should stick to the rule as written. It's easy.

If you drop a disc on your bag, thereby projecting it, and it just happens to catch an edge and roll 20 feet away, that's a practice throw.

If you throw a disc to your buddy, that's a practice throw.

If you mark you disc with a mini and set the thrown disc 3 feet to the side, then walk away and come back and throw from the disc and not the mini, that's a freakin' practice throw and not a stance violation. (You didn't miss your mark and end up 3 feet away. You lined up at "not your lie"!)


Whaddya all think?

could someone declare a practice throw?
If some one drove off the tee and the disc goes far down a ravine and maybe into a swift and deep muddy creek surrounded by thorns and poison ivy. Could he then declare that was a practice throw? Take a one throw penulty and throw again?

Any initial throw (first throw) from your lie changes the lie unless it involves a validly called and seconded stance violation (foot fault).

If you wish to practice a shot and not have it effect your lie, you can't be standing on your mark when you throw. This brings up the question if cheating. If you intentionally break the rules in order to gain a competitive advantage (a practice throw to see if you can clear the water in this wind) should be considered cheating.

Whaddya all think?

That makes a lot of sense, especially in respect to the thread discussing 'practice throw vs. playing from another players disc'. I think -all- of these throws should be practice throws unless it was -later- (after the hole ended or lie changed). At that point the 'playing from other player's disc' penalty (2 stroke) would come into play. Personally I feel a 2 stroke penalty is too harsh for an accident (playing from another disc that looks exactly like your own) if it is caught immediately after the throw.

Whaddya all think?

That makes a lot of sense, especially in respect to the thread discussing 'practice throw vs. playing from another players disc'. I think -all- of these throws should be practice throws unless it was -later- (after the hole ended or lie changed). At that point the 'playing from other player's disc' penalty (2 stroke) would come into play. Personally I feel a 2 stroke penalty is too harsh for an accident (playing from another disc that looks exactly like your own) if it is caught immediately after the throw.



Reason I was asked to Initial BOTH top and bottom of my disc.

No weak questions !!!!! :mad:/msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

I do not think that dropping your disc while on the tee box or getting ready to line up your putt should result in a penalty. You should just remain embarrassed and go on with the throw.

Dropping your disc should be OK unless you get the "tournament roll".

According to the rules are currently written, the projection of a disc over 2 meters, or any distance towards a target, that doesn't change your lie is a practice throw.



Doesn't the 'towards a target' phrase mean you'd exclude the dropped disc that rolls away from a punishable offense? When someone playing Nockamixon at Worlds drops their bag while walking up the rocks, causing all 21 discs to fall out and roll/bounce down the hill will they be hit with 21 strokes (or one warning and 20 strokes)?

So the real question here is: "what is a practice throw?"

The rule book defines it quite clearly without any reference to intent.

Dave Dunipace and others refer to "intent" when they talk about why the rule was introduced in the first place.

Which is it?

If intent is part of it, then the only way a practice throw could ever be thrown would be if you lined up off your mark and intentionally threw down the fariway to test the wind or otherwise "practice" the hole. But at that point you would be willfully violating the rules in order to gain a competitive advantage and would be subject to DQ instead of a 1 throw penalty.

So why have the Practice Throw rule as currentlly written if that is the "intent" of the rule?

1) A practice throw is a stroke!, there is not provision in the rule book for a warning! (however in playing in AMII, I often have told a player (warning) so they know and don't do it again.) In the Advanced Div. I would expect the player to know the rules!

2) Intent? I think you have to use good judgment on calls!

Examples:

a) If your backed up and waiting, a player throws a Disc at a tree..It's a Penalty!

b) if a player throw a Disc to another player after clearing the basket or to his bag if over 2 meters away. It's a Penalty!

c) if a player drops a Disc or it falls out of their bag and it rolls off. It's anal to make an issue out of it! If he throw's his bag down in anger while having a fit! Get anal, if you like!


I called a stroke on a boy who I warned once prior, about throwing a disc to his bag. The second time he did it, I call a stroke! 4 holes later I cleared his disc from the basket with mine and tossed the Disc to him as we often do during casual play. Yes, it was over 2 meters. No, nobody noticed! But, I did and I called a stroke on myself, because it was the right thing to do and know better! or should!

Enjoy the game!

We discussed this last night at league: You park your drive or approach under the basket, you mark your lie, and as you go to hole out you hit the basket with your disc and it pops out of your hand and does not fly/roll more than 2 meters. Is this a penalty? :confused:

Its not a penalty but it does count as a stroke :eek:

So I guess if you consider not getting a 2 on a hole you parked a penalty then yes it is a penalty :D

If intent is part of it, then the only way a practice throw could ever be thrown would be if you lined up off your mark and intentionally threw down the fariway to test the wind or otherwise "practice" the hole. But at that point you would be willfully violating the rules in order to gain a competitive advantage and would be subject to DQ instead of a 1 throw penalty.



I think it helps to look at what the rule sought to make illegal -- and that, it seems to me, was actually practicing during a round. So if someone drops a disc and it rolls, or if they toss a disc to someone who forgot to pick theirs up after playing on, I don't see it as a practice throw. To leave intent completely out seems to create a scenario where it might become unnecessarily and even absurdly punitive. Using Dan's example, say Barry Schultz has the lead at Worlds while walking up to his final putt of the final 9. His caddy had to bow out due to an emergency and Barry decides to carry his own bag. He sneezes and unexplainably his bag is thrown off his shoulder towards the target and all 12 discs project out. Is anyone seriously suggesting he should get 11 penalty strokes and take 4th place? :confused:

Thanks Rob. We are finally discussing the topic posted! :)

So I ask, what is a practice throw? Why is there a one-throw penalty in the rule-book? The only scenario I can imagine is that someone throws a drive from beside the tee in order to practice the hole, and then convincingly argues that they didn't know about the no practice throw rule. 1 stroke penalty.

Otherwise you are willfilly violating the practice throw rule if you throw a shot to practice a hole.


Here's an intent question: if the practice throw rule is there to keep people from practicing a hole during a round, how about playing catch to keep loose during a backup? You aren't practicing, you are just keeping warm/loose. What's the call?

There was a nice reply that is now missing.

What happened? Did they have to re-load the matrix?

If you are throwing a disc back to your bag or to another player to stay warm or not... You are in fact trying to throw the disc to a specific spot/place.Aiming!.. The same thing you do when you putt, throw an up shot! etc. So you are working on accuracy and technic with or without intent!

Example: I'm in the middle of my round and my putting is off today, we get backed up and I start putting at a near by tree to fix my putting problem. Should that be allowed? "NO"

If intent is part of it, then the only way a practice throw could ever be thrown would be if you lined up off your mark and intentionally threw down the fariway to test the wind or otherwise "practice" the hole. But at that point you would be willfully violating the rules in order to gain a competitive advantage and would be subject to DQ instead of a 1 throw penalty.



I think it helps to look at what the rule sought to make illegal -- and that, it seems to me, was actually practicing during a round. So if someone drops a disc and it rolls, or if they toss a disc to someone who forgot to pick theirs up after playing on, I don't see it as a practice throw. To leave intent completely out seems to create a scenario where it might become unnecessarily and even absurdly punitive. Using Dan's example, say Barry Schultz has the lead at Worlds while walking up to his final putt of the final 9. His caddy had to bow out due to an emergency and Barry decides to carry his own bag. He sneezes and unexplainably his bag is thrown off his shoulder towards the target and all 12 discs project out. Is anyone seriously suggesting he should get 11 penalty strokes and take 4th place? :confused:



Only if He's leading and Im in 2nd less than 11 strokes out :D

So the real question here is: "what is a practice throw?"

The rule book defines it quite clearly without any reference to intent.

Dave Dunipace and others refer to "intent" when they talk about why the rule was introduced in the first place.

Which is it?

If intent is part of it, then the only way a practice throw could ever be thrown would be if you lined up off your mark and intentionally threw down the fariway to test the wind or otherwise "practice" the hole. But at that point you would be willfully violating the rules in order to gain a competitive advantage and would be subject to DQ instead of a 1 throw penalty.

So why have the Practice Throw rule as currentlly written if that is the "intent" of the rule?



Most "Practice Throw" violations are considered when "other situations" come about..

ie.. Teeing off from the wrong tee. There was "NO INTENT" to actually practice, but when the error is realized (before finishing the hole) then those throw would be considered practice throws and be penalized accordingly.

I wouldnt think anyone would actually try to "Practice" a shot during play....

I do know of a situation where an individual at the Sandy Point Team event that lost a match due to a "Practice Throw"

Player 1, after missing a putt that would have won the hole, threw his disc out into the lake in anger. His opponent(Player 2) seeing the opportunity called a violation and stroked him which then gave the point to Player 2. Player 1 ended up losing the match by ONE POINT :p

Even though the Player 2 said he felt "Bad" doing that to one of the TOP 2 PLAYERS IN THE WORLD, it WAS Match Play and EVERY POINT counts ;) hey he only followed the RULES /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Rhett I see your frustration....I was stupid to this rule the first tournament I played in. The TD had mixed the divisions for the player groups, so the pro guy told me about the rule when I tossed my disc two feet to my bag. He wasn't a jerk about it, but it got me to thinking....(uhoh, watch out, my head might explode)

I think you could casually warn a person about a practice throw if you could tell there was no intent. Something like the tossing the driver on top of the bag without thinking about it. However, then when it comes around to a non-intentional toss more than two meters, you have some ground to either give the stroke or not.

The bag rolling away thing kind of perturbs me though. The local course I play on right now (Bengal Ridge) has extreme elevation changes. I have had my bag roll away more than 2 meters after I securely set it down. I had a target in mind when I set the bag down, so I guess you could give me the penalty stroke. I would not be a happy person though. On the other hand, I am generally far enough out of contention to not worry......

I guess regardless, you could always play a provisional and discuss any questions with the TD. That option is always open on unsure calls right?