Can you imagine someone, specifically one of our sport'sTop Pros at one of our premiere events, doing something like this (http://www.opengolf.com/news/displayNewsItem.sps?id=60004307) :

Toms disqualifies himself from The Open
15-Jul-2005 10:59 (BST)

David Toms, who finished in a tie for fourth place when The Open was last played at St Andrews in 2000, has disqualified himself from this year's Championship.

He told R&A officials this morning that he wanted to report a possible breach of the Rules during his first round.

On the 17th hole he hit his second shot over the green onto the gravel path and eventually had a short putt for a six. He holed the putt quickly and without much thought but became increasingly concerned later that his ball may have moved after he addressed it. He did not include the resulting penalty under Rule 18 in his score for the hole. The penalty is automatic disqualification.

Toms decided to disqualify himself from The Open and The R&A accepted his decision.



I can't see it happening. In fact, for a minor rules infraction, I bet most TDs would not allow or would discourage the player from DQ'ing himself.

If you did something on the coures that was a DQ'able offense, would you have the intestinal fortitude to DQ yourself?

Merely moving the ball is a two-stroke penalty. He disqualified himself for not calling the penalty on himself immediately.

It is not merely that the man has good character. His possible violation was taped from several camera angles. He makes a seven figure income from his eligibility as a PGA professional. The PGA takes its rules seriously. This is not a rule that you violate without knowing it. When you move your ball before striking it, even if it was inadvertant, you know it and you are supposed to call yourself immediately. This is not disc golf where you step past your lie putting, knowing that no one is going to call it.

He is fessing up belatedly and hoping that his self-imposed punishment will make things good. It probably will because such gentlemanliness begets similar treatment in the gentlemen's game of golf.

He is protecting the goose that lays his golden eggs.

If you did something on the course that was a DQ'able offense, would you have the intestinal fortitude to DQ yourself?

The Waterford Junior Girls Club made a group decision and DQ'd themselves from playing any tournaments in Michigan this year. Not exactly the same thing but similar. Thorough readers of the message board understand our reasons and I won't hijack the thread with them.

It has been easy for Diana and I since we have been on the DL and have had tournament assisting responsibilities at Jon's tournaments. Harder for the girls, especially not taking the Ludington trips, which have become imbued with tradition and ritual.

The Waterford Junior Girls Club made a group decision and DQ'd themselves from playing any tournaments in Michigan this year. Not exactly the same thing but similar. Thorough readers of the message board understand our reasons and I won't hijack the thread with them.

It has been easy for Diana and I since we have been on the DL and have had tournament assisting responsibilities at Jon's tournaments. Harder for the girls, especially not taking the Ludington trips, which have become imbued with tradition and ritual.



What did they DQ themselves for???

We played the course wrong at the Brent Hambrick this past weekend and we could have just said nothing because no one got between us and the group in front of us but I told the TD that we had played the course wrong and in turn recieved a 2 stroke penatly. Had in been a DQable offence I would have done the same thing.

What did they DQ themselves for???
Thorough readers of the message board understand our reasons and I won't hijack the thread with them.



I answered below in the Waterford Junior Girls Club area.

It is not merely that the man has good character. His possible violation was taped from several camera angles. He makes a seven figure income from his eligibility as a PGA professional.


What Bruce said. Ball golfers are not some kind of moral supermen. The economics of the PGA Tour situation dictate that it is far better to get DQd from one tournament this week than to try and "get over" and end up getting your Tour Card pulled and not be able to compete next week and the week after and the week after and the week after that.

Business deals are done on golf courses a lot. One business axiom is that "you can tell a lot about a man's character by watching how he plays golf." That right there tells you that many many many many ball golfers kick their lie and otherwise cheat.

It's just stupid to do it at the PGA Tour level, what with all the money you can earn next week or the week after that.

At this point I am feeling so guilty that, if possible, I'd like to disqualify myself from a casual round of golf I shot with my father in 1976, I think at Four Winds, but maybe it was Lake Bluff. Is there an official procedure for this?

There is a big difference between "the ball may have moved after I addressed it" and "I moved my lie to get a better shot"

Sounds like he cheated in how he described how the ball moved. If the ball just moves by itself you play it from where it moved to and there is no penalty stroke and no DQ. Only a lawyer would say "the ball may have moved after I addressed it" when he actually moved it himself.

"Moved after I addressed it"? What did he do, mail it? Did he address it in a package and mail it?

Uri Geller was his caddy this week.

Now that's bending the truth... /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Only a director (TD) may disqualify a player at a PDGA event, so I the most, under our rules of play, that a player suspecting they have violated the rules can do is report themselves to the TD and let them handle the decision making process of whether a disqualification is waranted.

At a recent PDGA tournament a player reported to the TD that during the round he had played from a disc that was not his in the edge of a giant rose bush,

Story goes; his 3rd shot, from a drop zone, went into the edge of the shule. When the group got to the general area they started the clock and started looking for the disc. The player was crawling around in the bushes inside the shule and spotted a disc of the same color and plastic type about 1 meter inside the edge and under a thick rose bush, and said, "I got it." He walked around, got his foot back in there behind the disc and threw a roller 120 feet around the corner to pin high 11 meters out. When he reached in to retrieve the disc he realized that it was not in fact his disc, and by the look of it it had been there for several days or more.

He immediately informed the group and they started looking for his real disc. Which was found a matter of seconds latter 15 feet from where the first one was in almost identical relation to the edge and a rose bush. He announced that he was uncertain of the rules but that he is sure that it is at least one penalty throw and that he will discuss it with the TD when he turns in his card. He then throws an identical approach shot that curls up not 2 feet away from the first one. Double putts and the hole is over.

He asks the group for a ruling, with the caveat that he will check with the TD when the scorecard is handed in. It is agreed that the rule violated is the �Practice Throw� and an additional throw is added to the holes score, resulting in a 7. This was on about the 9th hole of the round.

When they get in the guy instead of handing in his card and talking it through with the TD just goes to his car and starts eating lunch. In discussion with his friends he tells them the story and they all break out their rulebooks (such good boys and girls!). They conclude that the penalty assessed was not the correct one that in fact the violation is actually under the �THROWING FROM ANOTHER PLAYER'S LIE� and there should have been a 2 throw penalty, not a one throw penalty. So off he goes to report the mistake to the TD knowing that it will be the correct score (1 more throw) plus 2 more throws for handing in a scorecard with the wrong totals (and score for hole marked incorrectly). The TD agrees and adds the 3 scores.

As the guy is walking back to his car he realizes that there really should be at least one or two more penalty throws for the throws made from where his disc was found and then from where he throw his first and second putts. In fact he wasn't even sure if he had finished that hole!?! He went back and explained all that and the TD decided to go with his first ruling (3 throws).

I now have an idea of what the score for that hole should have been. What are your thoughts though?

The first mistake clearly was that the guy did not more carefully check that the disc in the bush was in fact his.
The second was not taking the time to get the correct ruling once the mistake was discovered. (Which lead to all subsequent penalty throws.)
The third mistake was not discussing it with the TD prior to handing in the card.

I'm confident that this player will never make any of those same mistakes again.

Toms' ball moved after he addressed it. 2 strokes. He didn't call it on himself right away, but his guilt got to him. This is the same dude that flipped off a rowdy fan a couple of weeks ago on TV. He's just trying to improve his image or he just wanted the weekend off to go sight-seeing with his new hooker/concubine/mistress.

in a tounament earlier this year i saw something that bothered me very much. A player(very good) throws a shot and hits the first tree in front of the tee-box on a very difficult dog-leg left hole. He had slipped and therefore shanked the drive. Wll, he then turns and calls himself on a footfault and asks other people in the group to second it. And guess what....they did. Well he takes his own warning and throws again and parks the hole with a roller. This is a very low percentage two hole. But thats not all. Two holes later we are all in a back up. the bob of the same card gets up to throw. He watches his disc fly three hundred feet and hyzer off into very bad rough. He turns and says "Hey, foot fault! Foot fault!...please guys....you gave it to him,,,,give it to me!" Well guess what. They do. He throws again.
This is CHEATING. I dont care what it says in the rulebook. You are allowed to call yourself on footfaults when being a gentleman...not because you have a bad drive. I confronted both of them at lunch and Only one apologized saying he thought it was wrong at the time but was so upset about the other guy that he wanted to do it also. It is a moral and ethical decision to cheat your fellow athletes....bada bing....CHEATING

Nick, the ruling was wrong. He was NOT playing from another players lie, because the disc had been in the bush for several days. "Another player's lie" means another player in that round not some lost disc that's been there a week.

It should have been a foot fault for playing more than 30 cm from his mini, and one practice shot. The foot fault is a warning, so the penalty should be only 1 stroke not 3!!

Ann,
If you look carefully at the practice throw ruling, you can see that calling this a practice throw is stretching this rule too far. He did in fact throw a disc in play from a lie. Not a practice throw.

I was unfortunately, one of the nice boys who pulled out my rule book, and I can say only one thing about Mr. Kight, he is a gentleman of the sport and should be commended. For those of you who judge Nick by his words on this board, do not make up your mind so quickly. Play a competative round with this man, then make your decision. (not directed toward you Ann)

Dan Cordle, #5360

I'm looking for the correct ruling on this one as the exact same thing happened during a tag match I was in a while back. Surprising how much bad blood can result in a rules dispute in a "friendly"

In our case the thrower had a bad drive, thought they located their disc in a wild rose bush, made the next throw, then discovered it was from a lost disc that had been there a while. I pointed this out as a two stroke playing from the wrong lie infraction (gleefully I am told ) Upon reflection on the next tee the group agreed that we did not know how to handle it, so we let the player go back and play from his approximate lie (his real drive was discovered 20 feet from the disc he threw) and assesed a one stroke practice throw penalty. The player got back at me the next hole when I left my gimmie under the basket and after I teed on the subsequent hole hit me with a two stroke, failure to hole out penalty, that I did not take to well :eek:

Love these rules debates :cool:

I've sent a request to the PDGA Rules Committee for an official ruling.

It's a toss up between whether they will say that "No, it was a practice throw because it was not actually anyone else's lie." Or "Yes it was incorrectly ruled and played because there is no way to determine there and then whether or not it actually was another player's lie or not."

The the second ruling seems to have some rather large repercussions: The player then has never actually completed that hole, therefore has withdrawn from the event.

I think it is a good idea to be honest and represent your sponsor.
Just because you had a bad round , doesn't entitle you to Crap on your foursome (Group).
Also , when returning from lunch after smoking , don't take the bad guys head and smash it into his car window !!!!! :eek: It doesn't make for professional behavior !!!!!

This is amazing....I was in a group a few weekends ago with a similar 'foot fault' call. It was the first time in my 2+ years of playing that a 'foot fault' was called:

4th round...all in our group are competing for the bottom cash spots in our Div. Guy gets up and kind of shanks his drive, and calls a foot fault on himself (actually, calls it a foot 'de'fault...shows you how serious he was about the infraction /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif) Now, he did slip off the tee, but I contended that he threw before slipping...thus, making a legal throw. The others in the group acted like they had never heard of the rule (and ALL were PDGA members :confused:) Even after I got him crossed up on his words (Someone had obviously told him to pull this one out when he shanks a drive) I couldnt get anyone to back me up. It was hot, and close to the end of the weekend...everyone wanted to just move on. So, I issued a warning, he re-tees...better shot...takes a 3 on the hole.

He does end up taking the last cash spot...though, I finish ahead of him. Still bothered me a little afterwards. I dont know if I was more ticked about the others not knowing the rule, or them not having enough gumption to call it!!

All PDGA members MUST be at least familiar with the rules. You owe it to yourself and the players around you to call violaitons and accept them when they are called on you.

I think it is a good idea to be honest and represent your sponsor.
Just because you had a bad round , doesn't entitle you to Crap on your foursome (Group).
Also , when returning from lunch after smoking , don't take the bad guys head and smash it into his car window !!!!! :eek: It doesn't make for professional behavior !!!!!



Perhaps I should add this piece of healthy advice to my Rules Committee query...

In order for a stance violation to be official, not only must someone call it within 3 seconds, but it must be seconded by another player in the group or an Official. I saw a guy try the same thing during a final nine of a Super Tour, and even with a gallery in tow, no one would second the players call on himself. It was kind of embarrassing for the guy. I didn't see it otherwise I would have called it if he were right.

In short, for this rule, you must have another person verify that it is true; you can't just call it on yourself.

Here is the part of our rules that deals with this:

F. A stance violation must be clearly called within three seconds after the infraction to be valid. The call may be made by any member of the group or an official. When the call is made by a member of the group, it must subsequently be confirmed by another member of the group. A player shall receive a warning for the first violation of a stance rule in the round. Subsequent violations of a stance rule in the same round shall incur a one-throw penalty.

G. Any throw that involves a validly called and seconded stance violation may not be used by the thrower. Re-throws must be taken from the original lie. Re-throws must be taken prior to subsequent play by others in the group.

disclife.com, back when it was trying to be a source of disc golf information and was updated regularly, published an article on this "technique" under the headin of something like "tournament strategies". They presented it as a viable and desirable strategy to use in tournament play.

I think that was reprehensible. Yeah, like condoning cheating like that is the way to get people to want to watch disc golf. Right.

I'm with Nick, if the player really did foot fault, and I witnessed it, I would second the call.

I would also watch the player very carefully after that to insure rule compliance with his later drives as well.

It's the least I could do since that player has already demonstrated his earnest desire to be in compliance with the rules by calling a violation on himself. :D

GNDUKE....you're missing the point...It was not desire to comply with the rules...this guy hit the first tree on the fairway...He called himself so he could get another drive. He turned a very difficult three save into a tapper for two. This is wrong. I think the rules should be changed so you cannot call yourself on a foot fault. Do you really think he would have called a foot fault if he aced the hole or parked it in the first place. NO. Its BS. In fact i think that everyone who let him re-drive on that hole cheated also. They helped someone intentionally gain strokes on the rest of the field.

I don't think the rule should be changed. Players must be able to call violations on themselves. But this would be a good reason to have an official with each group for major tournaments. We are not there yet as a sport, but I see that as the future of the game.

I don't think the rule should be changed. Players must be able to call violations on themselves. But this would be a good reason to have an official with each group for major tournaments. We are not there yet as a sport, but I see that as the future of the game.


I say "wrong" to that.

What this is, is a great example of why everyone on the card should watch for and call rules violations.

The only way that this scam can be used is if the player intentionally foot-faults on every drive so that when they do shank one, they can make the call and get a re-throw. If everyone watches all the time and makes the call all the time, then the cheater will either already have used up the "free warning", or else everyone else on the card will see (because they were watching) that it wasn't a foot fault.

Case closed.

The current rules would handle this situation plenty well if we were to actually use them during PDGA sanctioned tournament play.

But we all know that you are Richard Head Royale if you actually try to make a foot fault call during a tournament. But somehow you aren't one when you pull this obvious cheater move.

It's a weird sport we play, but then again we are all pretty weird for playing it anyways.

Nice Call Rhett !!!!!!! I have to agree with you on this.

There are cheaters out there and it puts players on the fence.

"The only way that this scam can be used is if the player intentionally foot-faults on every drive so that when they do shank one, they can make the call and get a re-throw."
I am an Official and have called folks on this in the past.
This is one way , a cheater can cercumvent the rules !!!!!

"If everyone watches all the time and makes the call all the time, then the cheater will either already have used up the "free warning", or else everyone else on the card will see (because they were watching) that it wasn't a foot fault"

We sometimes have to play FBI or Disc Golf Detective ( Not to be confused with Disc Golf Dick ) in order to resolve Issues or to " Nip it in the Bud ",Before it gets way out of hand !!!!!! /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Did you miss my smiley ?

I would second the call if it was a valid call, and I happened to see the foot fault. I would do this without regard to the outcome of the throw because it is the correct thing to do according to the rules. I would suspect the motive behind the call, but would give the player the benefit of the doubt and would have to believe that it was his desire to closely follow the rules that moved him to call himself on his error.

Since I respect that attitude, I would put forth special effort to assist that player in closely following all of the rules from that point forward. It is the least I could do for such an honest player. :D

Did you miss my smiley ?

I would second the call if it was a valid call, and I happened to see the foot fault. I would do this without regard to the outcome of the throw because it is the correct thing to do according to the rules. I would suspect the motive behind the call, but would give the player the benefit of the doubt and would have to believe that it was his desire to closely follow the rules that moved him to call himself on his error.

Since I respect that attitude, I would put forth special effort to assist that player in closely following all of the rules from that point forward. It is the least I could do for such an honest player. :D



Zackly

I've frequently found myself in the exact opposite situation. A guy will foot fault stepping off the tee, almost roll his ankle, throw the disc away, and to be a good guy I'll call the foot fault. Almost everytime the reaction I get is, "You f--khead. I throw my drive in the schule, wrench my ankle, and you're going to penalize me too?" I always say, "It is only a penalty if someone seconds." If no one seconds and we play on I will then tell him, "I was doing you a favor. If you had seconded it, the "penalty" for the first foot fault in a round is a rethrow from the tee with no penalty. F--khead."

I think an official with each group would be great...when we get that big. I was on a 3 card this past weekend and 1 guy threw his disc into the shule. We looked for it for at least 5 minutes. I said to the other player on the card (a 3 card), lets mark him here, give him a stroke, but we can still help him look for his disc, since there is no one behind us. We looked for another 5 minutes and found it. I said the individual needed to be stroked for a time violation, the individual refused. The other guy on my card refused to second my call, knowing it had been nearly 10 minutes (they are buddies, and me and they guy that lost the disc were tied for 2nd with 5 holes remaining in the tourney). Talk about crap! Earlier in the day I was stroked on a time limit looking for my disc, nobody said "3 minutes has officially begun", but I have integrity and knew that it had been time. I ended up beating him anyways, but what poor sportsmanship by both of the other players on my card. :mad:(See Model City Madness Tourney thread)

sorry to hear about that cam. that is WEAK!!! :mad:

Soooooo weak!
You should not be able to call yourself for a foot fault. I have been warned for foot faults and have warned people for the same, but have never seen anyone have a good drive and call themselves. Never. I can see calling yourself if your playing in rec and you actually want to teach the others in your group but this is obviously a way to legally cheat. If you call yourself for a foot fault after a bad drive and are fishing for seconds, you are clearly trying to gain an additional throw. I would not second a self proclaimed foot fault after a bad throw.

If he foot-faulted and called it on himself and I saw it I'd second it. I'd have to or I'd be cheating. Yes -- I've done this and yes the guy hit the same tree on his re-throw, his second drive was a little better but not by much. He stunk the rest of the round.

Of course -- I'd also call any others that I saw.

There was an interesting situation recently when I called a foot fault in a doubles match and the guy would not throw another drive -- he said they'd just take the team's other throw . . . I argued that he should throw again but he played on -- there's an interesting rules question.

If it was the standard doubles format (best disc/scramble), only one partner has to drive.

Not very good sportmanship, but if they were happy with the other player's drive, there was no need for him to drive again.

Yes - best disc.

No - he didn't have a problem with sportmanship. He just didn't like the idea of throwing again. He also said (later -- after the round) that while I called it immediately it was never seconded so he could have just taken his drive anyway. His drive was better but when I called it there wasn't a way to know for sure. He had no problem with the call -- the tees were dirt and it was easy to see that he was 12" outside the tee box.

We obviously didn't add any penalty for not taking the re-throw.

I've frequently found myself in the exact opposite situation. A guy will foot fault stepping off the tee, almost roll his ankle, throw the disc away, and to be a good guy I'll call the foot fault. Almost everytime the reaction I get is, "You f--khead. I throw my drive in the schule, wrench my ankle, and you're going to penalize me too?" I always say, "It is only a penalty if someone seconds." If no one seconds and we play on I will then tell him, "I was doing you a favor. If you had seconded it, the "penalty" for the first foot fault in a round is a rethrow from the tee with no penalty. F--khead."



BTDT

I think an official with each group would be great...when we get that big. I was on a 3 card this past weekend and 1 guy threw his disc into the shule. We looked for it for at least 5 minutes. I said to the other player on the card (a 3 card), lets mark him here, give him a stroke, but we can still help him look for his disc, since there is no one behind us. We looked for another 5 minutes and found it. I said the individual needed to be stroked for a time violation, the individual refused. The other guy on my card refused to second my call, knowing it had been nearly 10 minutes (they are buddies, and me and they guy that lost the disc were tied for 2nd with 5 holes remaining in the tourney). Talk about crap! Earlier in the day I was stroked on a time limit looking for my disc, nobody said "3 minutes has officially begun", but I have integrity and knew that it had been time. I ended up beating him anyways, but what poor sportsmanship by both of the other players on my card. :mad:(See Model City Madness Tourney thread)



PLEASE READ THIS:

803.10 LOST DISC
A. A disc shall be declared lost if the player cannot locate it within three minutes after arriving at the spot where it was last seen by the group or an official. Two players or an official must note when the timing of three minutes begins. All players of the group must, upon request, assist in searching for the disc for the full three minutes before the disc is declared lost. The disc is considered lost immediately upon the expiration of the three minute time limit.

B. A player whose disc is declared lost, shall receive one penalty throw. The approximate lie for the player's next shot shall be marked in-bounds nearest the spot where the disc was last seen, as agreed to by a majority of the group or an official.

C. If it is discovered, prior to the completion of the tournament, that a player's disc that was declared lost had been removed or taken, then the player shall have the penalty throw for the lost disc subtracted from his or her score.

D. A marker disc that is lost shall be replaced in its approximate lie as agreed to by a majority of the group or an official with no penalty.

Of note, and this is a first for me too, is that 3 distinct things must occur for a disc to be declared lost:

1) The spot where the disc was last seen must be noted by the group or an official. (I have never seen this done.)
2) Two players or an official must note when the timing of the three minutes begins.
3) All players of the group must, upon request, assist in searching for the disc for the full three minutes before the disc can be declared lost.

Having the group or Official �note� where the disc was last seen prior to looking for it makes sense in that that is already settled in the eventuality that it is not found. Additionally it will help with the search in that everyone will have an approximate idea of where to start looking.

So in your example, seems like no one was aware of or following the rules. �KFC� broke down at the �K�.

I have only called foot fault on myself twice and they were on teepads that were shorter than the others on the course and I misjudged how far I would need to run up.

You could also tell that I foot-faulted both times as I pretty much fell right when I threw(small drop-off at the end of the tee) and messed up my ankle. Neither time, no one was looking until they started to see me fall and so they didn't second it.

Oh well. When I played intermediate, and there was someone in the group that wasn't that familiar with the rules, I would give him a talk the first time he foot-faulted. Most of the time he paid attention to where his foot was when he threw. If he did it again, then I would call foot-fault and the rest of the group would start looking when he threw for more foot-faults.

It is also hard to tell if someone foot faults on natural teepads especially if you are trying not to be a distraction to the player throwing.

I'm not seeing anything inherently wrong with that. It may be that it's just your opinion that it's wrong, and I respect that.

As Cambagger's scenario illustrates, following the rules in this case only works if everyone is honest. Having an official with the group would eliminate the opportunity for the players to conspire to cheat.

The other problem is the culture of ignoring the rules when convenient. Having an official with the group would eliminate this as well. If there is a group where players intentionally foot-fault every drive, then clearly things have reached a new low and in my opinion, the only way to stop that would be to have officials with every group, or on every hole.

GNDUKE....you're missing the point...It was not desire to comply with the rules...this guy hit the first tree on the fairway...He called himself so he could get another drive. He turned a very difficult three save into a tapper for two. This is wrong. I think the rules should be changed so you cannot call yourself on a foot fault. Do you really think he would have called a foot fault if he aced the hole or parked it in the first place. NO. Its BS. In fact i think that everyone who let him re-drive on that hole cheated also. They helped someone intentionally gain strokes on the rest of the field.



Cheating according to the rules... maybe... maybe not... unethical use of the rules to gain advantage... definatly. In my book that is cheating. Maybe the answer here is not to prohibit from players calling violoations on themselves (which is a good thing IMO), but if a player calls himself on a violation he forfiets his one time warning.

thats reasonable....

GNDUKE....you're missing the point...It was not desire to comply with the rules...this guy hit the first tree on the fairway...He called himself so he could get another drive. He turned a very difficult three save into a tapper for two. This is wrong. I think the rules should be changed so you cannot call yourself on a foot fault. Do you really think he would have called a foot fault if he aced the hole or parked it in the first place. NO. Its BS. In fact i think that everyone who let him re-drive on that hole cheated also. They helped someone intentionally gain strokes on the rest of the field.



Cheating according to the rules... maybe... maybe not... unethical use of the rules to gain advantage... definatly. In my book that is cheating. Maybe the answer here is not to prohibit from players calling violoations on themselves (which is a good thing IMO), but if a player calls himself on a violation he forfiets his one time warning.



Perhaps allowing a person to call it on themself, and still get the warning if they agree to play from the thrown disc would work. This woud NOT punnish the honest throwers, and would still hinder the use of the rule to cheat.

GNDUKE....you're missing the point...It was not desire to comply with the rules...this guy hit the first tree on the fairway...He called himself so he could get another drive. He turned a very difficult three save into a tapper for two. This is wrong. I think the rules should be changed so you cannot call yourself on a foot fault. Do you really think he would have called a foot fault if he aced the hole or parked it in the first place. NO. Its BS. In fact i think that everyone who let him re-drive on that hole cheated also. They helped someone intentionally gain strokes on the rest of the field.



Cheating according to the rules... maybe... maybe not... unethical use of the rules to gain advantage... definatly. In my book that is cheating. Maybe the answer here is not to prohibit from players calling violoations on themselves (which is a good thing IMO), but if a player calls himself on a violation he forfiets his one time warning.



Perhaps allowing a person to call it on themself, and still get the warning if they agree to play from the thrown disc would work. This woud NOT punnish the honest throwers, and would still hinder the use of the rule to cheat.



I agree with what Rhett said earlier. If you have a problem with a person using this rule to cheat on a hole, then be more proactive in always watching for and calling foot faults.

I understand people saying what difference does a few inches in the fairway mean. But, if you fail to call all foot faults you are setting yourself up to have a situation like the above described.

I agree using the foot fault rule to prevent throwing from a terrible lie is morally irrehensible and should be considered cheating. However, if the thrower truly did foot fault, than it is within the rules.

I guess what I am trying to say is, if you have a problem with the way the player used the foot fault rule (which I personally do), then you really should be vigilant in watching the players in your group during tournaments.

However, I know when I am playing with friends in a casual type setting, we will sometimes call foot faults on each other when we shank a drive. But, that is a casual round. Totally different IMO.

My $0.02

If there is a group where players intentionally foot-fault every drive, then clearly things have reached a new low and in my opinion, the only way to stop that would be to have officials with every group, or on every hole.

Huh? After the 1st call every foot fault for the rest of the round would be a 1 stroke penalty. (803.03F - "A player shall receive a warning for the first violation of a stance rule in the round. Subsequent violations of a stance rule in the same round shall incur a one-throw penalty."). Note that you could receive a warning on a putt and then a stroke later in the round on a tee-off!


I agree using the foot fault rule to prevent throwing from a terrible lie is morally irrehensible and should be considered cheating.

I don't see how you could intentionally foot fault -after- realizing your throw isn't that great. The disc has already left your hand... stepping over the edge of the tee pad at this point is totally legal and results in no penalty.

Sorry, I didn't make myself clear...calling a foot fault on yourself after you had a bad drive and did not really foot fault is bad. It seemed to me in the example there might have been some indication that the player had not really foot faulted.

Like I said before, watching and calling infractions would prevent this from happening.

If you are watching and someone tries to call a foot fault on a bad drive when there wasn't a foot fault, you can make the positive non-call because you saw it.

If someone intentionally foot-faults on every drive specifically so that they can call themselves on it if they shank, then you should call the stance violation and issue the warning before the shank occurs.

If someone just happens to actually commit their first foot fault on a shanked drive, then they have just benefitted from the rules. No problem.



If you notice that someone is foot-faulting on every drive, you can also give them the "okie doke" non-warning friendly reminder of what the rules are and how they foot faulting. Actually calling a foot fault is a good way to get beat up at a tourney. But if you give them the ole "I'm not calling this or giving you a warning, but...." routine, you should be able to help them not foot-fault on every drive.

If you are playing with someone who has pulled the cheating foot-fault maneuver on you before, then it shouldn't be a big deal to issue the warning on the first hole since you already know what they are about.

KFC in da house! Whoop! Whoop!

Know
Follow
Call

Know the rules
Follow the rules
Call the rules

Be an (pro)active protector of our sport.