There seems to be a serious lack of information about air bounce. I'd like to learn a bit about it. All of you disc flight specialists out there: please answer all or as many of these questions as you can.

1. What is air bounce in relation to a golf disc's flight?.

2. Can how can you impart air bounce on your disc? Techniques, mechanics?

3. How much control can you expect to have without practicing all of your life?

4. Is there a particular type of disc that is more suited to "bouncing" (stable / understable, heavy / light, domey / flat, ect.)

--D

an air bounce is the behavior when the disc is thrown towards its bottom. this does not necessarily mean (but can include) a downward trajectory. most air bounce shots involve some form of force that is not parallel to the plane of the disc (either by wrist roll, pull line, etc.).

there's a very large number of flight paths you can achieve with an air bounce, not all of which are applicable in most situations.

the most common you will find is probably a finesses approach shot that allows you to make a run at the chains without flying very far past the basket. these are thrown (usually with a putter or understable disc) nose up but with the force on the disc in the forward direction.

I came to DG from a background in Ultimate. The "air bounce" was a technique that I had been using my entire life, and had to unlearn in order to have any success at DG. The flight paths and the discs are not really suited to it as the air bounce will rob you shot of a lot of speed, and almost requires the nose up.

to answer your questions as best i can
1) you basically get the disc to change direction in flight by using the force of air against the bottom of the flight plane.

2) If you have a lite, backyard frisbee it's easier to see. the easiest is to thow the disc downward a bit, but with a lot of nose up. the disc initially goes towards the ground, then the air pressure under the disc stops it and the flight plane takes over and the disc starts to rise. it can be done side to side as well by throwing the disc downward to your right just a bit with a touch of hyzer and a healthy bit of nose up. the disc starts downward and right then starts to rise and go left.

3) if you don't practice it, don't use it. It's hard to learn, and really hard to do with golf discs. I've practiced that shot for years, and I wouldn't dream of trying it on a golf course.

4) larger diameter, domey, lighter plastic is more capable of air bounce. dead straight stable would be best as you won't have to fight any other characteristics of the disc.

Air bounse is very use.ful for me when approaching, or severe dog leg. I learned it from playing catch with a 50 mold for about 10 years before finding disc golf in '84. I use a Roc, Aviar, or Coyote the most with the air bounce shot.

I honestly don't suggest learning how to airbounce.
I came from now disc throwing experience when i started playing golf.
within about 2and a half months i was throwing over 400 and pretty **** straight.
i then tried to learn how to airbounce and never have been able to throw well since..
Probably wont' happen to you, but it somehow caused me to change my throw forever :(.

-Scott Lewis

Throw the disc downward with the nose up. For a righty the effect will usually be that the disc will go straight as it loses elevation and starts to climb, and the nose-up part of the climb will make it bank left just like a level nose-up throw will do.

I use it with a putter for 75-125 foot runs at the basket because I can get it to (usually) strafe the chains with a low percentage chance to go in while landing (usually) within 15 feet of the pin.

I really would not recommend the air bounce for golf. While it is a fun throw while playing catch, ultimate or showing people tricks, when done in golf with the added stability of even the most understable disc the nose up/slow trajectory of the disc would cause the disc to fade to the left more then intended on a 75-100ft shot.

Go for it if you want, but I would not recommend it, especially in the wind.

Some very good airbounce info here. If you want to know about airbounce, find a freestyler or an ultimate player. KCLofty, for example, is just as close to dead on in his analysis as you can get.

I've played quite a bit of Ultimate myself, and air bounce can be a major problem when an Ultimate player is learning to disc golf. Lots of my teammates from the Ulty field are miserable golfers because they throw everything with airbounce/nose up.

Airbounce on the golf course is a very limited application throw. It's questionable at best on a windy day, as any Ultimate player can tell you. Showing the bottom of the disc to the wind can result in ridiculous popups, extreme fade, and horrible loss of accuracy. It kills distance on drives and, in my opinion, is very inconsistant on approaches. (If you want to make a run at the chains without blowing by them, I'd recommend a high, floating hyzer before I would an airbounce.)

If, however, you have low hanging branches between you and the basket, and are desperate for a run at the chains, air bounce might be the throw for you. Further, because air bounce slows the disc so much, it accentuates fade quite a bit. If you have an extreme dogleg, airbounce might get you farther than the glide of a hyzer.

The cautions that everybody has given in this thread are very well founded. Learning airbounce can introduce horrible habits into your driving form. If you insist on learning the airbounce, see below.

To add airbounce, move your thumb more toward the middle of your disc. On the throw, bring your arm from your shoulder to your stomach area, instead of shoulder to shoulder. Roll your wrist as you throw, so that your snapping motion brings the nose of the disc upward. (Your hand will start palm-up, but end knuckle-up.) Push down with your thumb as you snap your throw. The disc will fly toward the ground for a brief period, then it will "catch" the air and begin following its nose.

As has been said before, this is easiest done with a large diameter disc, as it catches more air. (I can airbounce an Ultrastar under a park bench, but there's no way I could do it with a Tee-Bird.)

Note: Airbounce forehands are almost impossible, and, although they do exist, the bounce is of negligable effect on a golf disc.

If you have the skills it's a beautiful thing. Nose up in the wind is always a bad thing, unless you're playing MTA.

i have seen some extemely serious top pros use an air bounce to get around/under and tree that was positioned immediately in front/right of a tee box. the annie line (280' hole) was not really there, but the air bounce allowed them to get under the branches on the right side of the trunk, then gain some altitude for the rest of the flight. the disc plane from the air bounce resulted in both a rapid decline in speed close to the pin, anbd the necessary hyzer from the right side.

i know they were doing it deliberately because i stood near the pad during warmups and listened to them discuss precisely what they were doing.

this kind of shot shaping is a pro calibre shot, and requires some practice. but an air bounce IS a shot that has a place in the bag.

Air bounces are essential in my game. Perfect for low ceiling, low speed shots, or like others have said for a putt that you want to go straight, but settle very close if missed. I would recommend learning one with either a Sky-Styler, or an UltraStar and then convert what you've learned over to your favorite putter. Great shot to have "in the bag."

Thanks guys !

That certainly cleared it up for me. It's great to have such a knowledgeable bunch of folks around to share info with.

Here's a follow up question that doesn't deserve it's own topic:

Sometimes on a long drive your disc will be cruising along flat and then jump up a few feet before continuing along it's flight path.

I've been told that a hyzer flip will hop up just as it flattens, and sometimes (but not always) mine do this. I've also entertained the thought that the disc is just hitting an updraft of air - as I can see no other explanation when the disc is flying flat and straight.

This is something I've noticed, but never really took the time to understand. Can someone give me the skinny on the physics of this phenomenon?

-D

i believe the naysayers about the air bounce probably have too narrow of a definition of this type of shot.

narrow definition: a shot thrown downwards that "bounces" back upwards in a somewhat straight line.

broad definition: a shot that involves intentional rebound action between the air and bottom of the disc.

there are hundreds of applicable/useful ways to utilize and control disc flight if working under the broad definition... it just takes a lot of experimentation to build an array of shots that work with particular discs and particular types of power on the disc. the majority of the air bounce shots i use involve a form of torque to shape the flight.

a lot of disc terms get classified this way, especially the term hyzer. narrow definition: a shot that curves from right to left.
broad definition: a shot that is released with the outter edge of the disc lower than the inner edge, where 0 degrees < angle <= 90 degrees.

dallas, it is an updraft, nothing more. you are correct.

Blake,
I can see how being able to manipulate the disc's flight in a variety of ways would be extremely useful, but I'm not sure this is a path that everyone would have the ability to take. I suppose once you really master the more advanced techniques used in disc golf then you could begin to focus on the more subtle manipulations such as the air bounce.

I see where you are coming from, however, and to a certain extent I agree. The more you are able to control the flight the better your game will become.
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I went out and played a round today and really noticed this updraft effect on a particular hole where a long sweep hyzer would fly over a small ravine. There must have been some air shooting up out of this depression because just when I thought the disc was about to start dropping it popped right back up.

If the wind is similar the next time I play there I can use this knowledge to my advantage and set up a better putt.

It's really the subtleties that make this sport so interesting don't you think?

--D

Blake,
I can see how being able to manipulate the disc's flight in a variety of ways would be extremely useful, but I'm not sure this is a path that everyone would have the ability to take. I suppose once you really master the more advanced techniques used in disc golf then you could begin to focus on the more subtle manipulations such as the air bounce.

I see where you are coming from, however, and to a certain extent I agree. The more you are able to control the flight the better your game will become.



i agree a lot of this involves many of the advanced techniques of disc... but learning through experimentation is one of the easiest ways to figure out things you never knew existed. i didn't have a disc golf mentor until my 3rd year of disc, but i went into that having a very large set of shots in my bag. a lot of players practice throwing flat but the number that practice throwing with a large number of modifications is much much smaller. part of disc isn't just learning how to throw one way, but how to use slight changes to achieve the exact flight you want. aside from teeshots, you will rarely, if ever, have the exact same shot twice... thus, being able to adjust to your given lie becomes increasingly important.

another thing, from a teaching standpoint, i have found with most players that once they start doing something intentionally, they stop doing it by accident.

after working with a large number of players that torque over on every shot... it takes them a while to break that habit. once they are about 50/50 (half the time they accidentally get over on it), i will often teach them a few shots where they have to consciously get over on it... this usually decreases the number of slipups on their normal shots after that.

i guess i'm just a proponent of experimenting, especially in the 150' and in range, which is where you will generally have the largest variety of looks to deal with on a course and it is practicing various ways of getting to the pin where a lot of the natural learning of how to manipulate flight paths develops.

i believe the naysayers about the air bounce probably have too narrow of a definition of this type of shot.

narrow definition: a shot thrown downwards that "bounces" back upwards in a somewhat straight line.

broad definition: a shot that involves intentional rebound action between the air and bottom of the disc.




I don't think it's a narrow definition, as air bounce is one specific shot. As the name implies, it's the actin of making the disc rise after initially sinking.

The shot where you deliberately nose the disc up to create a controlled stall out and soft landing after a bit of straight flight I've always heard called an "Air Brake."

If you go with your broad definitions, they are the same shot. If you use more precise definitions, they are different shots.

The air brake is a good up shot, and many people use it on up shots, some are not even aware of it. Most proponents (but not all) on this topic have been refering to air brake as a useful shot.

I don't mean to sound like I'm nit-picking ... but I was specifically referring to the one shot, not the broader definition that you now bring up.

I will still stand behind my contention that anytime you expose the fllight plate, you are risking the wind grabbing that disc and taking it out of control. Be very aware of the wind before you throw either of these shots.

it gets quite complicated when a lot of the hybrid shots begin to surface... what to name them. i tend to stick to broad definitions, especially as nomenclature often differs amongst regions (e.g. some regions consider the sidearm and flick to be two different shots, other regions consider a flick to be any sidearm shot, some places it's two-finger, i've even heard sidearm referred to as a "finger pop").

i've seen some players throw a super beat cyclone or beat up proto stingray nose up/hyzer and watched it pop up from left to right, flip up and over and then hold a slight right turn for its flight... is this a hyzer flip or an air bounce? or is it an air bounce hyzer flip?

i am generally a proponent of experimentation, even if they are of limited applicability since it often unlocks a lot of intricacies of throwing technique they might otherwise not have figured out on their own.


I will still stand behind my contention that anytime you expose the fllight plate, you are risking the wind grabbing that disc and taking it out of control. Be very aware of the wind before you throw either of these shots.



i agree that the wind can wreak havoc on air bounces, but with proper manipulation the wind can be utilized... such as throwing slight nose up into a head wind with some roll over to make the disc rise and flatten to nose down. it's not a super easy shot to execute consistently, but it can be done.

i also don't mean to nit-pick here, but with a sweeping hyzer that is pulled out to the right exposes flight plate but is one of the more consistent shots out there. granted, the wind must be accounted for as a left to right wind will knock this shot down and a right to left wind will push it to fade more... but i don't consider this to be any more compensation than throwing with a head or tailwind.

You're right about the name variations. Broad terminology is probably a good idea since there are no standard names. I just wanted to explain that I was referring to one particular shot on my posts when I was nay-saying, and agree that other variations can be useful. A lot of my nay saying was in responce to #3 "how much control can you expect to have without practice..."

However a sweeping hyzer has the force of your pull behind it to combat the wind. A controlled stall out is helpless against gusty conditions and can quickly go bad in a big way.