At a tournament this month a friend of mine turned in his card late, and he and all the other players in the group were given a two stroke penalty, per 804.3E.

"E. All players are responsible for returning their scorecards within 25 minutes after the completion of a round. Failure to do so shall result in the assessment of two penalty throws, without a warning, to each player listed on the late scorecard."

For the round he turned in his scorecards late, he was (obviously) the lowest score, and it turns out that was the lowest score on that course for the day. He was the "hotshot" for his division that day. I think he received the prize (a disc), and I think that's right/fair. But some argued that he should not receive the prize, since his score was adjuested (+2) by the TD, knocking him out of hotshot contention.

Question #1: Which score is used to determine hotshot--what you actually threw, or what was scored on the card after the round was over (which includes the scoring penalty)?

I think the score (with the scoring penalty) is the one added into the PDGA tournament database, which in turn is used to generate round ratings.

Question #2: Is it reasonable to include the scoring error in your calculations of the round rating?

I understand there are all sorts of penalty strokes that can accrue during the round (and these are warranted), but this poor guy was assessed a procedural stroke *after* the round was over! It just does not seem fair (to me) to lower his round rating. But I'm not sure how the database would have to be altered to account for such "non-playing, not during the round" penalties, that should not, in my opinion, be included with what happens *during* the round and official play.

I'd appreciate comments from anyone.
Thanks,
Steve

answer 1 - if someone misses cash by a stroke and recieved some sort of penalty, should they get the cash anyways? Of course not. The same should be applied in this instance.

answer 2 - if someone is that concerned with ratings, they A, need to get a life, and B, follow PDGA rules and not recieve penalty strokes.

I have played in close to 70 PDGA tournaments and never recieved a penalty stroke. It's really not that hard.

As much as we'd like to not include penalties not directly related to play in player scores, the logistics of doing so would be too challenging versus the benefit. Scores falling more than 80-120 pt below a player's rating will be suppressed anyway in the new calculations, which is what might happen if a player is late for two holes. But any penalties less than that will likely be in the ratings calculation. A case could be made that those who occasionally get those penalties have this as a behavioral pattern such that they will continue to get these penalties every so often. Thus, they should be included in their rating.

Seriously...How hard is it to add up your score, initial it, and turn it in within the 25 minute time frame.

I agree. People make stupid mistakes. Hopefully, they learn from them and don't repeat the stupidity. But the penalty strokes are absolutely part of their game, because they eff'd up.

The solution is to not make that mistake again.

Thanks Chuck. I should have also mentioned that the TD added the +2 to the guy's "total" column after 3 rounds, not to the round score. It seems like the penalty should have been added to the round, since I assume that is what gets entered into the database, and not the intermediate round totals. And looking at the results, it looks like he did do that.

And yes, he's done this before. (And it's not me!)
Cheers,
Steve

I agree. People make stupid mistakes. Hopefully, they learn from them and don't repeat the stupidity. But the penalty strokes are absolutely part of their game, because they eff'd up.
The solution is to not make that mistake again.



I agree with this wholeheartedly. It is part of the mental game. Playing from the wrong tee, throwing to the wrong basket, being late (in many cases), playing from the wrong lie, etc. are all penalties that reflect on mental lapses. The person with the mental lapse is getting punished.

I do have problem with turning scorecards in late and penalizing the whole group since 2-4 people other than the one with the mental lapse are getting punished.

Funny story from this last weekend. The last round top card of pro's at the Points Bonanza at Reedy were Dave, Ed and Matt. The guys doing the scoreboard said that the score card from the bottom group of pro's never got turned in, but I swear I saw it when I entered the scores into the computer.

I uploaded the scores online and brought the printouts of scores and ratings to the cookout after the tournament. It was pointed out that I had some errors in that the guys on the bottom card had shot much worse than was reflected.

It turns out that the top card of Ed, Dave and Matt had not put their last names on their card and that I had entered their scores as the bottom guys' scores since they were also Ed, Dave, and Matt. Mystery solved. The bottom card got 2 addtional strokes added to their scores the next morning when the card was turned in.

What are the chances of this coincidence happening again??!!

We've had a group with four guys named Tim.

We've had a group with four guys named Tim.


I was at a tournament a few years ago where the groups were assigned for the first round according to first name. There was a fivesome of Daves which amused everyone. I played with a Jon, 2 Johns, and a Joe. Certainly makes getting scores straight a bit tough. That's why I always try to include first and last names on a scorecard when I fill it out. Makes it easier on the group and on the person entering the scores on the scoreport or computer.

--Josh

I was in a group with 4 Steves...I became "Doc" 'that' day.

What we do to avoid that problem is we circle the starting hole on the scorecard. If there are two groups called "Mike, Josh, Steve" they probably didn't both start on hole 5.

Seriously...How hard is it to add up your score, initial it, and turn it in within the 25 minute time frame.



Although I agree that it's not that hard (even though I've made the same mistake nearly 10 years ago at Am Worlds) I think you should point out that it no longer has to be initialed and I believe you have 20 minutes, not 25. Just clarifying in case anyone wants to be nit-picky here.


I also agree with what else has been said about these strokes being included on one's rating. They are part of the game and it's part of your score so penalties should certainly help form your rating.

hey josh, i was in that "Dave" 5-some. That was the 2002 animalfest if im not mistaken... could have been states tho. I know it was warwick. And yeah, keeping track of scores with a bunch of Daves is a PITA, altho still fun :DIf i remember correctly there were another 2-3 daves in ANOTHER group that round, too. There are a lot of us.

on-topic, i think any penalties you earn, be they bad shots or extra strokes from playing the wrong tee, 2M penalties, turning in the card late, etc, should be worked into your rating. You can argue that one guy's messup screws 2-4 other guys as well, but I almost always walk back to tourney central with whoever has our card and make sure it gets handed in. If you're too lazy to do that before heading to lunch or going home saturday night before sunday's rounds... don't be lazy next time. You're all responsible for the scorecard, no matter who's holding it.

It is 25 minutes after completion of the round [804.03.E].

It is every players responsibility to get the cards turned in. Walk the cards back to tourney central every time. Trust no one.

Having been at the computer entering scores many times where the players fill out the cards, I would ask that whoever fills out the cards (TD or players) put the following information on the cards.

1) First and Last names (no nicknames, you may know what it means, but I probably don't)
2) Circle the starting hole. It makes a lot easier to know when all of the cards are in and where to look for late cards.
3) Please include the division on the card.

The person entering the scores will thank you, and if there is a mistake in the scoring, finding your card later will be much easier.

hey josh, i was in that "Dave" 5-some. That was the 2002 animalfest if im not mistaken... could have been states tho. I know it was warwick. And yeah, keeping track of scores with a bunch of Daves is a PITA, altho still fun :DIf i remember correctly there were another 2-3 daves in ANOTHER group that round, too. There are a lot of us.

on-topic, i think any penalties you earn, be they bad shots or extra strokes from playing the wrong tee, 2M penalties, turning in the card late, etc, should be worked into your rating. You can argue that one guy's messup screws 2-4 other guys as well, but I almost always walk back to tourney central with whoever has our card and make sure it gets handed in. If you're too lazy to do that before heading to lunch or going home saturday night before sunday's rounds... don't be lazy next time. You're all responsible for the scorecard, no matter who's holding it.


Actually, it was 2002 Dam Pyramids (first round at Barre Falls) and the ordering of the cards was one of Southwick's crazy ideas. I have never had the pleasure of playing Animalfest, so it couldn't have been there that I experienced it. Maybe it happened there too cuz I wouldn't put it past Dan Doyle to do something like that as well.

All penalties you earn should be included for ratings. A late scorecard penalty or a round starting with a couple par+4s is no different than earning an OB penalty during the round or having a mis-added card penalty after play is done. You are responsible for your score from the beginning of the round to the end and you're not done the round until the card is turned in. If your card is late, you haven't technically finished the round yet.

--Josh

Question #1: Which score is used to determine hotshot--what you actually threw, or what was scored on the card after the round was over (which includes the scoring penalty)?

Hotshot is an ancillary contest, not part of the PDGA tournament per se. As such, the rules and the conduct of the contest are up to the TD or contest sponsor. It's no different than a TD deciding that the ace pool will pay the second ace, or the last ace, or 60% for skip aces/40% for other aces.

That being said, as a practical matter, the problem with excluding penalties from either round rating calculations or ancillary contest scores is determining what counts against the score and what doesn't: do penalties for misplays count against the throw score? what about practice throws? unsafe lie penalties? stance/falling putt penalties? courtesy violations? If a player is late returning from a break and misses the first two holes of a round, should his score for the contest/rating calculation be based only on the number of throws s/he made on the 16 holes actually played or should it include par + 8 for the two holes missed?

I have played in close to 70 PDGA tournaments and never recieved a penalty stroke. It's really not that hard.

Really? I'll have to warn your playing partners to keep an eye on you, 'cuz I can think of at least three instances when you've gone OB during a tournament, so if you didn't receive a penalty, there must have been some serious pencil-whipping going on. :p :p :p

hardy har har...find my cobra!

#3484

#3484

If that's supposed to be the number of times I've found your lost discs, you're short by at least a couple dozen. :p :p :p