Okay, I've been thinking a lot about this here recently, and as always there is talk of sandbaggers and all that.
I'm playing Novice right now, and I'm playing at a level I think is competitive. I've played in three tournaments in our Indiana Summer Series and have placed 1st, 4th, and 2nd... by all means not a trouncing (the 1st was by one stroke after two rounds of 48). I think that I'm competitive in my division, but at the novice level there are inevitably players that completely and totally suck (not to take anything away from them, but sometimes you have the players that have never played in a tourney before, etc...).
I actually got called a bagger this past weekend for shooting a -2 at Honeybear. I don't think it was really all that serious an accusation, but it got me thinking, because no one else in Novice had a 70 round (I ended up second because of a crappy first round).
I have said for the past couple months (since I decided to get "serious" and join the PDGA) that I will move up when I:
a. Win the Summer Series novice division
or
b. My rating forces me up to AM2
I look at the scores in AM2, and I don't really think that I'd be competitive. I've received some advice saying when I regularly beat the bottom 20% of the AM2 field I should move up, but I have a very justified concern about being able to compete because of the REAL baggers (the ever present pattern of would-be open players who stay in AM1 and the players that stay in AM2 because they're scared of the baggers in AM1... it's a horrible cycle)
So my question is, should I just stay in Novice until my rating forces me out? I mean, that's what ratings are for, right?
I thought that a driving lesson I received this past weekend would help me move up quickly, but after league play last night I'm having my doubts because now I need to relearn all of my discs. (By the way, I don't even know what your name is, but you totally rock for teaching me how to drive, so if you're reading this, thank you.)
esalazar
Jun 14 2005, 03:24 PM
move up!! moving from rec to int is not that big of a step!! hanging around in rec is ridiculous unless there is some sort of physical impairment involved!!
My only suggestion is to move up faster than you would want to. The reason is this- playing with better players makes you a better player. Staying in the lower division does not stimulate a player to get better, or learn new shots. Moving into a harder division will force you to focus and develop as a player faster.
rhett
Jun 14 2005, 04:11 PM
My only suggestion is to move up faster than you would want to. The reason is this- playing with better players makes you a better player. Staying in the lower division does not stimulate a player to get better, or learn new shots. Moving into a harder division will force you to focus and develop as a player faster.
I disagree with that statement. By that logic he should go pro, or at least move to Advanced, if he wants to get better. But the problem is that if he does that he will be on the last card of Pro or Advanced and that is where some seriously crappy "don't care" golf is played. It won't make you better.
One problem I have found with the ratings is that people don't play within them. When you have a bunch of 890-900 rated players in Advanced, then a 940 Advanced player gets called a bagger he should whoop them by 12-16 strokes a tourney. When those 890-900 guys play Advanced, any 880 guys still playing Int are called baggers because they whoop up on the 750 guys playing Int. etc etc.
I suggest you make aplan to stick with Rec for your Summer Series. If you are winning or taking 2nd-4th by only a couple of strokes, you are learning a lot more about dealing with the pressure of the lead card and the need for consistency that you will ever learn near the bottom of Int or on the last card of Adv.
If your rating goes up, move up. (Not really a choice anymore.) If you have a breakthrough month in July and improve to where you start trouncing the competition by double-digits, then you should move up. There's not really much point to winning multiple Rec tourneys by 10+ strokes, ya know? But if neither of those are the case, stick with Rec and take a shot at the series title. If you win three in a row by narrow margins and your rating is still in the Rec range, resist the peer pressure and take your shot at winning the series.
Just remember, no matter what division you play in, if it isn't MPO and you do well, someone will call you a bagger. That's juts the way it is.
oxalate
Jun 14 2005, 04:34 PM
Doug,
So you took 2nd at Honeybear on Saturday - good job!!
I think Rhett hit the nail on the head with his above post.
I would recommend continuing to play Rec in the next two Summer Series events. They are publishing the next player rating update on July 19. This will be after the Indy and Ft. Wayne legs of the series. If your PR is above 875 after this update, then you will have to move up for the final 2 events. Regardless, you are about the only Rec player following the series and I would expect you to still win the overall title even if you play Intermediate for the final two events.
Are you playing in the Michiana Open? Since the Rec. division does not appear to be offered - you may want to try competing in the Intermediate division. You won't lose out on any summer series points since its not part of the series and you will be able to see how your game stacks up against Intermediate players from around the Midwest. Not to mention you don't want to miss the only A-tier in Indiana.
Good luck,
John
It depends on why you're playing in tournaments in the first place. If it's to win stuff, then you're probably better off moving up and getting better as fast as possible. I doubt the payout in the novice division is all that great. If it's to improve, then you should move up to play with better players which will help your game. If it's simply to win and you're content winning in the lowest division then you should stay there until you're forced to move up.
bruce_brakel
Jun 14 2005, 04:37 PM
You beat Kelsey by three throws at Pillage. You beat her two out of three rounds. You need to be beating the high school freshman girls more consistantly than that before you move up. :D
If you think playing against tougher competition is going to cause you to improve faster, it may. But you will have a lot more fun playing in divisions where your rating puts you rather than in divisions where peer pressure would put you.
Finally, it is not an either/or. For a tournament series you may need to play the same division every time. But if you want to see how you'd do in intermediate, if the tougher competition would cause you to take it up a notch, come out to Crystal Lake for IOS#3, the Cryztal Cruise. The Intermediate/Rec ace pool will have a minimum of $500 in it.
Check out the signature website for details.
gnduke
Jun 14 2005, 04:42 PM
As Rhett mentioned, it is a matter of competition.
To play in a division where you are competing in the cashing spots, you will get to play with better attitudes and seriousness than playing on cards that are well out of the cash and not really trying. I agree that playing with better players will make you a better player, but playing on the botom card of any division will not allow you to play with better players. At least not with better players playing a serious game.
Play where you and the others on your card are being pushed to perform, not where no one cares what the score is.
move up!! moving from rec to int is not that big of a step!! hanging around in rec is ridiculous unless there is some sort of physical impairment involved!!
Well, for me I think it would be a big step. At the Iron Horse I would have placed 11th out of 14 players, and I played the best disc golf of my life that second round. At Pillage I would have tied for 9th out of 12, and that's not taking into account that there were two longer tees I would have had to use. I don't remember what I would have been this past weekend, but I don't remember it being very good.
I want very much to move up, but I don't want to move up into complete and total butt-stompings... not only would it not be good for my morale, but it wouldn't really be a competition at all. If I don't have a snowballs chance in hell of placing in the top half, I don't think I belong there.
Oh, and by the way, that "freshman high school girl" (Kelsey) is a total badass... I don't feel the least bit bad about having barely beat her. In fact, I feel good that I did... she rocks. I definitely do NOT want to be playing against her a few years from now, unless I get a lot better too.
Oh, and to answer the question as to why I'm playing, I'm playing to get better. Yeah, winning plastic is cool, but I'm a novice and have like 30 discs, way more than I need, so that's not what I'm after. I would like to have my rating 900+ by the end of the year, and I've been practicing really hard, the problem is that everytime I learn another fundamental, I have to readjust my entire game. Like this weekend, I learned how to drive 300-350 consistantly, but now I have to relearn all of my discs to compensate for the extra power, so it'll be a while before I really see the benefits, and as of right now, it's actually hurt my game a little (but I know in the end it'll be better as a result). It's these "one step back for a future two steps forward" lessons that I'll continue to have to learn until I have solid fundamentals (no one ever really "taught" me to play, I've kind of been winging it.).
Thanks for the advice everybody, I appreciate it. I am thinking about playing AM2 at the Michiana... that seems like it'll be a great tournament to go to, no matter how I do.
tbender
Jun 14 2005, 07:01 PM
By that logic he should go pro, or at least move to Advanced, if he wants to get better. But the problem is that if he does that he will be on the last card of Pro or Advanced and that is where some seriously crappy "don't care" golf is played. It won't make you better.
This is very true. Been on a "no chance at cash" Pro card and was the only one who cared. Not fun, not competitive, and not worth my time.
Set a goal, try to beat it, and keep it fun.
If you feel like you have to ask you should move up. The only way to answer that question is to DO IT.
scoop
Jun 15 2005, 01:40 AM
Where've you been hiding, James? Used to see you at nearly every tournament...now I can't remember seeing you yet this year....
You going to play in Conroe in a couple of weeks? What about Gonzo next weekend?
wilma
Jun 15 2005, 09:29 AM
Professional Amateur
Howdo Rooster? Right after PPO I got a new job and was working two at once for a month and a half while transitioning to the new job. I work more hours now and weekends are always a question. I'm thinking about playing Conroe it just depends how work goes and how often I get to play. Lately its been once a week. My focus has shifted from disc golf to work for the time being but I'm slowly getting more time in on the course.
You should really just be thankful that they offer a rec division, rather than forcing you to play intermediate. I'd love to even have the option to move up.
I have the same pressure and question about moving up. I have played the local tourney for the past couple years, and just joined the PDGA over a year ago. Some of the locals I know say I should move up (I play INT) because it is my home course (Rotary in WV), but I have yet to even place in INT. I would like to at least be competive before moving up and having my tail handed to me.
Take the opportunity to finish out your series in rec, unless you start winning by big margins, then move up after the series ends. When you first move up a division, you might consider choosing to play smaller events (maybe C-tiers) where you have a realistic chance of cashing if you play your best golf.
NEngle
Jun 16 2005, 12:52 PM
Adam, I'm moving up so you should too. Our scores are always close & we seem to place well even if we don't shoot well. Come to Chilli this Saturday & play Adv! I am.
Nick
gnduke
Jun 16 2005, 04:18 PM
I think that's really a more compelling reason to move up.
When you are winning or cashing high even when you don't play well, then you are in need of better competition to keep you focused. If you have an average round and win, either you are playing above your rating, or everyone that should be in your division giving you competition is playing up.
NEngle
Jun 17 2005, 12:58 AM
I've never won a pdga. I feel like I should move up regardless. I'll probably "play down" in a-tiers this year, even though my rating clearly puts me as an amII.
Plankeye
Jun 18 2005, 09:29 AM
What???? There is a rec division??? That blasphemy here in NC.
The past several tournies i have been bouncing up and down from INT to ADV and back to INT, just to see where I should play. Even though I was on the lower ADV cards by the 3rd or 4th round, I still felt like I played a lot better than some of the tournies i played as an INT.
For me, playing advanced makes me focus more because I know I can't make many mistakes or it is over. I also like not having to remind people of rules when I play advanced. It seems like when I tell someone a rule they are breaking in INT they get all huffy-puffy and the round doesn't become fun anymore.
This past week I played a 1 day PDGA in Charlotte and I played advanced. The group I played with was awesome and they told me that I had the skills to play and survive in advanced, and at the end of the first round I was only 1 stroke out of last cash/plastic. I had a great group second round and was able to see different types of shots, that actually worked, that I never thought about. The only thing I regret about that round is that I got really fatigued with 9 holes to go and my form went bad and I couldn't snap out of it until the last couple holes(there was a 10 minute backup on a hole and it gave me time to rest and refocus for the last 2 holes). That group also told me the same thing as the first round group told me. That I had some great drives, etc but I just got tired and fatigued. I wasn't the only that was fatigued though as 1 other person in our group was just barely hanging on the last few holes. Hell, MTL was about to puke after the round because he was so fatigued.
Anyway, play where you feel comfortable with. Moving up to INT will make you play better faster, but if you will get discouraged by finishing on the lower half then stay Rec until your rating forces you out.
Parkntwoputt
Jun 18 2005, 03:16 PM
This is very true. Been on a "no chance at cash" Pro card and was the only one who cared. Not fun, not competitive, and not worth my time.
Set a goal, try to beat it, and keep it fun.
The last sentence is great advice, but it is contradicted by the prior statement.
I had that problem when I first started off in tournaments. I would let the other players affect the way I was playing. In truth, it does not matter if you have a bogus first round and are stuck a few cards back then where you wanted to be. Where you are at in the middle of the tournament does not matter if you are a competitor, only where you finish matters.
Golf is almost 100% mental, if you believe that you belong at the front, play your heart out, don't let your self be affected by the "I don't care anymore, because I am too far out" players. because you will be ahead of them after that round is over any way.
I always suggest to move up once you are consistently beating the bottom 1/3 of the division ahead of you. This way, when you move up, you will already be a mid packer, and on a really great day you may have a shot of cashing.
But all that matters is when you are ready. No matter what division you are in (except MPO) people worse then you, or jealous of you will call you a bagger.
I was best man in a wedding on Sat, couldn't make it. How did ya do? I think I will finish the year out Int, and try to move up next year.
cwphish
Jun 21 2005, 03:35 PM
A local disc golf hall of famer helped me recently gauge when and why I should move up to MPO when I choose to. His advice was simple. Move up when you are ready to take on the added pressure, stiffer competition, and increased pay in versus pay out. Right now, I play well but with enough inconsistency to justify where I am playing. When and if that balance sways more towards consistently placing top three or so in advanced, I will make the move up. Until that time, I know I have a lot of work to better my putts and mental game. So even when I do do well in regards to a pro field, I go back to moving when I am ready as a wholeness. Once I go pro, I will not go back.
NEngle
Jun 22 2005, 01:32 AM
I was best man in a wedding on Sat, couldn't make it. How did ya do? I think I will finish the year out Int, and try to move up next year.
http://www.pdga.com/tournament/tournament_results.php?TournID=5296 ;)
You may be mistaken, I played really well at March Madness (the rain didn't effect my game as it did most, my first time ever seeing the course BTW). If you look back to the last time we both played Chilli, you bested me by 12 strokes. I don't think that puts us in the same league. I may played ADV for my home course tourney this year, just to get a feel for the better players and to play both days. You placed with and beat 3 guys from Huntington that I can not hold a candle to, once my putting gets better I will move up.
quickdisc
Jun 28 2005, 12:05 AM
It becomes time for someone to move out of the Novice division , when he/she , knows how to drive , make upshots and use his/her putter. Par to 5-6 under is Not Novice Division.
Knowledge and Skill become more prevalent in the other divisions.
Making Birdies , saving Pars , playing with course management skills...................Should be playing in Pro -divisions.
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