And from what I have seen in my short time playing they should be making more than that!!!
If some of these guys have been doing this full time I feel sorry for these poor souls .
A growing sport like Disc golf should pay its top pros bigger purses. I mean when people get excited when the Top Pro of this sport cracks $30k for the year, thats sad. While the rest are averaging what in the high teens or so ?

There is something wrong with that picture !! I know we are not mainstream yet but Ping Pong World Champions make a hell of alot more than that.

I am a very savvy and successful business man and a player myself who has started several Companies and I must say someone is sitting pretty good with this arrangement. And unfortunately its not the Disc Golf players !! I don't have enough knowledge about the industry as of yet , but I am wondering what kind of Income statement and Balance Sheets Innova reported last year ?? God knows they are selling a hell of alot of Plastic every year.
And God knows their Top Disc Golf athletes who they sponsor and who in turn promote the company are evidently not seeing any of this gravy.



And I guess its safe to say these poor athletes cannot really have much of a chance starting a family of any size on that kind of pauper like earnings.

Maybe we should have a union and a lock out like the NHL.

If you want big rewards, you have to take big risks. So, why don't we bump entry fees to $1k per tournament? Then, Barry will being rolling in $$$ fatter than an umpa lumpa. Until then, let this fade off into the sunset.

With all due respect!

It is a lack of sponsorship. It cost a title sponsor millions to name a golf tournament. But then they make the news, listed in publications and people actually PAY to go watch guys go hit a ball with a stick.

You know that guy Tiger Woods. He makes more money from sponsorship, than he does winning tournaments, and he broke all the records for most money won in a year.

Learn a little bit more before opening your mouth.

"Learn a little bit more before opening your mouth.

--------------------
I'm so bad at posting I don't even have a rating "



Ha Butcher boy,
Your Signature is definitely fitting for you. :o

Sorry for opening up my mouth. Just making an observation
and was trying to start a productive dialogue that might be insightful and healthy amongst the Disc Golf community.

I am sorry and please forgive me. NOT :p

Sorry for opening up my mouth. Just making an observation
and was trying to start a productive dialogue that might be insightful and healthy amongst the Disc Golf community.

I am sorry and please forgive me. NOT :p




Sounds more like you just want to start an argument. If you are such a successful business man, they you should be able to do one of the following things:

a) See why disc golf tourneys don't pay much at all

b) Come up with a functional business plan and execute it such that you make money and the pro purse goes up


Please do whatever it is that successfull businessmen do to reach one of the above.

It is a lack of sponsorship. It cost a title sponsor millions to name a golf tournament. But then they make the news, listed in publications and people actually PAY to go watch guys go hit a ball with a stick.



Here is my opinion: it is about sponsorship. And sponsorship is about visibility and audience. These produce a return on the investment of advertisers' dollars.

The obvious visiibility and audience for advertisers come from TV. The cost of production for bowling, ping pong, poker, spelling bees, bmx, skateboarding, etc is minimal....A few stationary cameras is all that is needed. And, all these activities have wide recreational participation.

The cost of producing a compelling disc golf tourment TV event dwarfs those activities. And, disc golf is not a compelling/dramatic sport to watch on TV to begin with. IMO, this is why I am pretty pessimistic about our game of disc golf growing appreciably.

Ha rhett,
Not trying to start an argument. Just don't appreciate being told to keep my mouth close when I was trying to be positive and make some genuine observations.

I guess, I am just excited being new here and excited about discovering Disc golf. And I just want to get involved and I probably go a little bit faster than I should.

I guess its my nature with everything I passionately pursue.

My bad :)

Ditto to Butch

Anyway, like I said I don't have enough experience and knowledge of the Indusrty to come up with some ironclad plans for implementation. It might not be Prudent.

I will say of course the Sponsorship is not there. I am just curious of the Margins Innova has on their reportings each quarter. And wondering how much of their Net is being pushed back into investing in Disc Golf and in particular the " investement " it puts in its Top Pros ?? I mean seriously guys , you all need to question Innovas bottom line . And also propose the question whether Innova's Net could strategically be reallocated into a bigger cash reserve fund for the Pros making both parties quite content.

Luke may correct me if I'm off-base, but I think the "learn a little bit more before opening your mouth" comment is based on the fact that you just registered two days ago and have started a number of threads on the message board. If you observe what's being discussed on current threads and look back at some of the archives, especially as it pertains to the top pros in our sport, you might have been able to answer some of the questions and issues you raised.

Please don't let this bridle your obvious enthusiasm!

-Jeff

Yep your point is true. I jump in too fast and furious...

You shouldn't just pick on Innova.

And you should try to find out what their "bottom line" is before you start speculating on the best ways for them to spend their money.

This dude smells like Creekside.

DISCn, if you pick up the latest copy of DGWN you'll see how Innova (and others) compensate their sponsored players.

The sport is still young. In time things will improve for tourning pros. In the mean time, have fun & throw some stinkin' frisbees.

I'm just a kid but......... one of the girls in my mothers religous ed. class father is an exec. at ESPN. I asked him once about why disc golf isnt on TV. And it is in fact that it is the small payouts and lack of major corporate sponsors. Disc golf has the potential to be an amazing sport to watch on tv. Ball golf is popular (according to this man) because of the following reasons.

1) Astonishment. the players put a little ball in a little hole from a long way away. <font color="red"> </font> Disc golfers make much longer shots and aces are extremely frequent compared to ball golf.
<font color="black"> </font> 2. Excitement with lots of money at stake. <font color="red"> </font> When the average working man is getting 40k after takes in America, and tiger woods wins a tournament and gets over a million, its exciting. Same principle as game shows. People figure I can do that, or at least try.
<font color="black"> </font> 3. Try it Factor. there are courses all over the world and people can try it, and suceed. <font color="red"> </font> Disc golf is much easier to make spectacular shots and get better quicker. One friend hit a 120' shot his first time and thats the kind of thing that hooks people on sports.

<font color="black"> </font> Essentially what I have been told and figured out is that disc golf can be more stimulating that other sports on tv. Tight wooded courses can be tough to put on tv, and we lack corporate sponsors. I think we should try to get sponsors to donate 100k to be a sponsor, and tell espn or someone about the world championships(after we get a few major sponsors) and have them cover the final round. That way the champ might get a $50,000+ prize. With a couple major sponsors getting espn time that cheaply and espn getting a new viewing demographic, our sport will be able to progress as other sports have. But thats just my perspective.

Funny, I was just reading through some threads and thought to myself " Why did creekside change his name?" This is not meant as an inflammatory statement, but the writing styles are just too similar.

This dude smells like Creekside.

DISCn, if you pick up the latest copy of DGWN you'll see how Innova (and others) compensate their sponsored players.

The sport is still young. In time things will improve for tourning pros. In the mean time, have fun & throw some stinkin' frisbees.



Yep.

After a little bit more experience try running a tournament and getting sponsors. You're such a savvy businessman it should be no problem for you to put together a top B tier at least, right?

And many of those top pros don't go around whining that they don't make enough. Many seem to be fairly happy making enough to tour and that's it.

Yep some good points there,kid
Though not sure that there is a huge disparity between tournament aces in Disc Golf and tournament aces in stick golf. Would be very interesting to do a comparison between the US Championships of stick and Disc !! And see the amount of aces in each one

There were 3 aces at last year's USDGC.

And here's a link to an article about traditional golf US Open aces:
http://www.usaweekend.com/03_issues/030608/030608golf.html

Ha right,
Got me confused with someone else .

And Butch in all due respect I don't think I would really ever want to try.
Not anything I would have the least bit of interest in.
Actually being savvy would mean to not engage in endeavors such as running a B tier event that would provide little if any profit.

I still think you're Creekside.

Nengle ,whatever you want to believe man . LOL
If it makes you feel better to think I am this creekside fellow then more power to you :)


Anyway, your article says,
" That's what happened June 16, 1989, when Doug Weaver, Mark Wiebe, Jerry Pate and Nick Price scored successive holes in one at "Pinpoint," the 159-yard 6th hole at Oak Hill Country Club in Rochester, N.Y., during the 89th U.S. Open Championship"

Yeah Nengle ,maybe I am reading your post wrong but are you saying or implying that there are more aces in Disc Golf than Stick Golf National tourneys ???
It seems to me in this article it says there were three aces in 89' US Stick Golf Championship in one day. So it might be comparable between the two wouldn'tyou think ??

I think on regular municipal courses a hole -in- one in Disc Golf is probably easier than a hole in one on a Municipal stick golf course. Because of the lengths involved and the nature of throwing the disc and the golf ball and their size etc.etc..

But in national tourneys on a long course like US Disc Golf Open in Rock Hill , the Disc players may not have that many more aces than the PGA players at all 4 rounds in a stick golf major like the US Open.

I don't think we even need 100k of sponsorship. The Putt-Putt golf that is on tv gives $1,000 a hole and is not very exciting yet it still gets shown at least once a year. Maybe the PDGA can put some (or more if they already do this) of the dues money us members pay towards sponsorship of the USDGC and that would make the payout big enough to get us on national tv at least once a year.

Yeah, they have been showing Putt Putt finals on CBS once a year since the mid eighties. Actually, sometimes it has been more than once a year they have shown it on national tv.

As far as excitement your right, Disc Golf on tv would be more exciting. But you have to remember , almost everyone in our society has played Putt Putt for fun at least once in their life. Not so with Disc Golf. So society can relate to it easier and thus making it more feasible and viable for CBS to show it as they will be able to get more sponsors to buy commercial slots during that air time.

I guess commercial success of Disc Golf will always hinge upon the fact that it is just "not enough mainstream" for people to get excited about. I think it is changing once people get a Disc in their hands and see how fun it is. But I guess ultimately for awhile at least thats what it will always come back too. And maybe thats the way it was meant to be. I don't know .

Getting compared to Creekside could be worn as a badge of honor in some circles. Your reputation can be saved over time, however.

Puttt-Putt was/is a huge franchise chain and had resources to pay to have their shows produced and aired. Same for many other "fringe" sports, which upon further inspection, are large after all.

Ping-Pong can't be lumped in the same category. The game is huge overseas, and in the US the game peaked in the 50's and 60's so there are vast numbers of casual players. The primary reason for the Killerspin stuff which has been in rotation on commercial TV is the lack of NHL. A lot of hours had to be filled since the hockey players were in the tank. Darts got some good exposure for the same reason.

With the growing number of niche TV stations, getting shows on is probably cheaper now than ever but not yet affordable for the DG industry. At least I don't think so.

The modern brightly-colored discs are very video-friendly, and the game can be compelling on TV. Golf is very successful for too many reasons to mention, but having polished multi-camera production and commentary teams helps. The DG budget is more like three guys and their cameras, and usually only two of the guys show up.

I'd invite anyone who lives in an area served by community access TV to contact me about getting some disc golf on TV in their area. Disc Golf Live is a pdga-supported show which is free to broadcast partners who agree to submit the show for broadcast in their area.

If anyone wants to talk about producing a segment for the show, let me know. Its a good way to get some exposure for your club, event, or standout players.

"Puttt-Putt was/is a huge franchise chain "

Actually the operative wording should be "was".
The actual Putt Putt Organization has steadily dissipated and stopped growing in the last decade or so.Mainly due to the advent of other elaborate putt putt type courses and new interest people have developed in other area over time.

I did an MOA (Market Opportunity Analysis) on Putt Putt Orgaanization for my senior thesis and the way it worked is that Putt Putt would put very little investement of their own money in these national broadcast. They did not have to as CBS realized the popularity of the sport and recouped the investement plus much more with sposorship commercials.

Yeah Nengle ,maybe I am reading your post wrong but are you saying or implying that there are more aces in Disc Golf than Stick Golf National tourneys ???




Nope. You asked for stats & I provided some. I wasn't implying anything.


Seems to me the way to catch the nation's attention right now now is to have a reallity show about disc golf. ;)

"Nope. You asked for stats & I provided some. I wasn't implying anything."

Looks like your stats prove you wrong then. You said there were 3 aces last year at Rock hill. And there was 3 aces in one day at US Open in 89'.


Sounds comparable to me. I have watched enough Major tournament stick golf to realize they are comparable

Show me where I said there would be more in disc golf.

OOPS......misunderstanding. Yep your right you didn't !!

Yes, there are certain "added money, or sponsorship money" requirements that need to be met in order to maintain the tier status of the tournament, whether it be a B, A, or NT event.

So, right now we are basically playing for each others money. Which brings me to these questions pertaining to traditional golf (becasue we all want the exposure, and cash that PGA golf has) :

Does anyone know what Tiger, Phil, Sergio, or any other PGA players entry fee's are? Would "The Masters" have a higher entry fee, than the "John Deere Classic"? Do they pay deeper into the field, or do they pay 33%-40% of the field like we do in disc?

I'd personally hit the road *IF* last place cash earned $1,000. I'm not saying that i shoot for last place cash, i'm simply saying that I need at least $1,000 a week in order to keep me and my family's boat afloat! :D

Yeah, they pay enrty fees. Up to a thousand dollars a pop.
But when you are making 5 million a year its kind of irrelevant.

If you are new on the Tour without much dough you usually have a backer or investor to cover this.
Could be bad could be good.

Kenny Perry borrowed money from a backer back in 86' to get him going.. No repayment in contract was required. The contract did stipulate that he has to give 5% donation off the top of his earnings the rest of his golf career to David Liscomb University. He seems alright with this.

So, if "The Master's", or any PGA major charges $1000 per player for an entry fee, and 150 golfers played, that would be $150,000 of the total purse. Well, here are some stats from the 2004 Masters:

Event: The 69th Masters Tournament.
Dates: April 7-10.
Site: Augusta National Golf Club.
Length: 7,290 yards.
Par: 36-36--72.
Changes: There were no significant changes to the golf course for the first time since 2002.
Format: 72 holes of stroke play, sudden death playoff if necessary.
<font color="red"> Purse: To be determined ($6.29 million in 2004). </font>
Field: 88 professionals, four amateurs.
Defending champion: Phil Mickelson.

______________________________________________


<font color="red">$6.29 MILLION </font> !!!!!!!!!!!!! Looks like the $150,000 from the entry fees is irrelevant. We need corporate sponsorship!

Ooops. Well in the example above, the field size was 92. So in that case, the $92,000 is irrelevant. :)

about the three aces in 89'. I personally have watched almost every golf tournament on tv since the advent of the golf channel. My grandfather deemed it necessary when we came to his house on sundays to watch it. I can think of 3 aces shown on television in the past 5 yrs. most recent was vj's at the byron nelson. there was couples at the tpc, and one other at the british open i think. and lots more long shots are made in disc golf, plus the sound of chains is more exciting than an almost noexistent plunk.

At every PGA event the purse is determined in advance and the entry fees are donated to a charity associated with the event. PGA purses on the top tour this year range from $4,000,000 to 10,000,000 per event. Any PGA player earning enough to stay on the PGA tour is not concerned about the entry fees or the purse! The PGA also has a Senior Tour and a National Tour with smaller payouts, but those payouts still dwarf anything we have.

A typical PGA format is to play one round per day for four days. Half of the field is cut after the second round [Friday] and they go home empty handed. Everyone who makes the cut cashes. Last cash usually is around $10,000. The one exception is the Masters where everyone who misses the cut is given $5,000.

Insurance companies and automobile companies pay for a lot of this. If you drive a car or have insurance, you pay for it. In the PGA they have figured out how to get past sponsoring the pros with the ams' money. They sponsor the pros with money from guys like me who don't even follow the sport.

[I just like to follow the money!]

I was just imagining how dramatic hole 5 at the USDGC would look from a blimp.

And then how useless that would be for most of the other holes.

FYI:

The Masters Golf Tournament is a private tournament hosted by a private club and is not a PGA Tour event. Unlike PGA events, the Augusta National does not charge an entry fee to players to compete in the event.

Augusta National does not permit sponsorship of any kind on the golf course. It's only sponsors are CitiGroup, Coca-Cola and Cadillac, which all pay a hefty sum and receive only minimal television commercial time during the telecast. It is estimated that Augusta National takes in between 6 and 10 million dollars just from ticket sales alone. Merchandising probably brings them at least twice that much.

Straight from Augusta, Georgia!!! Thanks for the added info. Now what did you guys do with the transplanted Texan known as Craig Leyva? Tell him to get back home!

That proves the fact that sponsorshipo isn't always about exposure. Those three sponsors probably receive numerous ticket to the event as part of their deal. I'd guess that they also get an oportunity to rub elbows with the players. All there probably use their relationship with the tournament to reward employees in some way.

I hate to read on here that sponsorship is all about how many eyes will see a logo.

The sposor has to get something out of it that justifies the expense. In the ball golf Masters tourney, there is a lot of prestige involved that translates into something for those corporations.

We probably need to start thinking about just what it is that we can offer a sponsor that makes it worth their while to spend money with us. That's the bottom line.

Hmmm... How much would someone pay to 'rub shoulders' with Disc Golfers??.... Might make more money charging them for the shower afterwards....

FYI:

The Masters Golf Tournament is a private tournament hosted by a private club and is not a PGA Tour event. Unlike PGA events, the Augusta National does not charge an entry fee to players to compete in the event.

Augusta National does not permit sponsorship of any kind on the golf course. It's only sponsors are CitiGroup, Coca-Cola and Cadillac, which all pay a hefty sum and receive only minimal television commercial time during the telecast. It is estimated that Augusta National takes in between 6 and 10 million dollars just from ticket sales alone. Merchandising probably brings them at least twice that much.



The Masters could make 10times the revenue if they offered merchandise to the World, but you have to goto Augusta and get in the gates to get a Masters hat.... :( I would buy one every year if i could....They must be some rich mo-fo's to let all that money get away. Disc golf needs some of those rich mo-fo's to support our tour ;)

The sposor has to get something out of it that justifies the expense. In the ball golf Masters tourney, there is a lot of prestige involved that translates into something for those corporations.

We probably need to start thinking about just what it is that we can offer a sponsor that makes it worth their while to spend money with us. That's the bottom line.



Yep, yep. Sometimes it's just about association. Look at Timex & the Iorn Man event. Not highly publicized, but timex makes a killing off their relationship.