cromwell
Jun 02 2005, 06:52 PM
The following is an excerpt from the Q&A on unplayable tees.....
RULES QUESTION: What about tees that are unsafe (such as a wet tee on a downgrade, or one with slippery sand on it)?
Same basic set of options. Where's the TD? Many players improve their stance and safety by putting a small towel down and placing their plant foot on it in order to avoid slipping. Whenever I find sand on a tee pad, I simply brush it off with my towel. If it's really bad you could carry a small whiskbroom in your bag.
It doesn't seem you need to make any declaration of an unsafe surface or something similar in order to do something like put a towel down on a wet teepad. What are people's opinions to this type of action being used out on the course?
We always talk about how people are not allowed to move sticks and other obstacles OUT of their way when taking a stance to throw. But it's never addressed if you can put an obstacle IN your stance to aid you. Example... you're in a swampy mess of mud and don't have a good place to put your front foot. Are you allowed to take a rock or branch and put it behind your lie so that you can stand on it, keeping your foot out of the mud and on a more solid surface? When I was playing a tournament in the rain in March, I was making an upshot putt on a grassy, yet muddy slope. As I went to putt, my rear foot slipped when I pushed off and fortunately I held onto the disc. When lining up the shot again, I couldn't shake the "just don't slip" from my head as I tried to make the shot again: and I blew the putt. Sure that's my own head working against me, but if I could have layed a towel down under my rear foot I probably would have been much better off - or at least FELT much better off and I wouldn't have been worrying about it.
So what are people's opinions? If the PDGA is saying this is fine on the tee, can we do the same thing out on the course? I'm curious what people think of the matter.
veganray
Jun 02 2005, 08:16 PM
Vegan Ray no likey. If you can't (or choose not to) play it where it came to rest without some sort of aid, take relief & a penalty. The tee is a special circumstance, since you are required to play from a particular proscribed spot, not one you have placed yourself into.
ck34
Jun 02 2005, 08:31 PM
It's legal anywhere from my understanding. I've seen it done and done it myself by putting a rock or branch in the mud to get a better stance behind the mini.
rhett
Jun 02 2005, 08:51 PM
I seem to recall a post from long ago where the RC declared that you could carry a frickin' ladder around with you all round and lay it down behind your disc and throw from there.
We don't have the "no building a lie" rule that ball golf has.
sandalman
Jun 03 2005, 12:13 AM
and how many times do players put a disc under their knees when kneeling for a putt on rocky surface? almost every time.
quickdisc
Jun 03 2005, 12:40 AM
How about having your own Electric Golf Cart ?
august
Jun 03 2005, 09:18 AM
In the 2000 PDGA Worlds video, there is footage of someone (Dr. Rick I think) placing a towel down to improve the footing. The commentator (Houck) says that is one of the things you can do in disc golf but not in ball golf.
I agree it is legal, but to me it's improving your lie and should not be allowed. The tee is different because as it was said above, you are required to shoot from there and you should be allowed to clean it up.
I agree it is legal, but to me it's improving your lie and should not be allowed. The tee is different because as it was said above, you are required to shoot from there and you should be allowed to clean it up.
Aren't you required to play from your lie, too? :confused:
Re: improving one's lie: at least one RC member argues that clearing away casual obstacles such as leaves, stones, branches, twigs, trash, debris, [/i]etc.[/i] is improving one's lie, and has lobbied for the elimination of relief from any and all casual obstacles to stance or run-up.
I didn't realize this was completely legal (although kneeling on a disc should have given me a clue years ago). I guess I can get a piece of carpet and roll it up in my bag and 'build' my own tee behind every fairway shot :cool:
Heck, I can even paint a 30cm line down from the front-center to make sure my plant foot is in the legal place :D
james_mccaine
Jun 03 2005, 01:26 PM
Anyone have a link that lists members of the rule committee, or other committees for that matter (not the contact link, but a list of who is on each committee)? For me at least, it is hard to find that info on this site.
gnduke
Jun 03 2005, 01:51 PM
James, Try reading a few of the Rules Q&As.
No email addresses though.
august
Jun 03 2005, 01:57 PM
Aren't you required to play from your lie, too?
Yes. But the lie is your choice. The tee pad is a required starting point and is chosen for you. Cleaning the tee pad is nothing more than periodic maintenance. It shouldn't matter if it's done before, during, or after a tournament round. To me it's the same as raking a sand trap for the next group.
sandalman
Jun 03 2005, 02:11 PM
Anyone have a link that lists members of the rule committee, or other committees for that matter (not the contact link, but a list of who is on each committee)? For me at least, it is hard to find that info on this site.
SO VERY TRUE!
for a group of unelected people who have the entire sport by the short ones, they certainly are faceless and unknown! the website should clearly list the membership and contact info for ALL comittees in the PDGA!
james_mccaine
Jun 03 2005, 02:11 PM
Thanks Gary, that helps for the rules committee.
This discussion has got me thinking about stuff. If I have one of my knees on the ground for a shot, I put a disc under my knee. It prevents rock indentations, bull mettle, etc. I don't really consider it an advantage. However, I never put a towel beneath my plant foot, either on the tee or elsewhere. It kind of seems like cheating to me, but I don't really care if others do it because it has been an accepted practice for so long. I would also never dream of building a stance (using other objects) on a muddy slope or surface. This really seems like cheating to me and it would bother me if I saw someone else do it.
Upon reflection of my opinions, I started to think that either I am being hypocritical and should feel free to do all three; that I am being hypocritical and should do none of them; or that there really are different levels of improving one stance, some of which are acceptable because no advantage is gained (other than the comfort of my knee) and others which are unacceptable because a real advantage is gained.
gnduke
Jun 03 2005, 02:27 PM
I think part of the problem is the concept from ball golf that a lie can't be improved. In Disc Golf, we do not play a disc where it lies no matter how much we claim to do so. We play with one point of contact on or near the spot where the disc came to rest. This is a huge difference.
If you watch Ball Golf, they do take time to improve their stance in the sand traps. You never see them hitting from muddy slopes, but I would think that putting a towel on the ground to aid in a solid stance would be legal.
I think it is really more of a safety issue than a competitive advantage. You are still limited by the 30 second rule, the no destruction to the course rule and the can't move anything between the lie and the hole rule while you improve your stance.
disctance00
Jun 03 2005, 03:55 PM
In ball golf they are hitting from the lie on the ground. We are throwing from the air. Big difference to me. As far as lies go. We abuse our body so much more than ball golfers do. Improving your plant foot for a much safer plant does not bother me one way or another. I would much rather see a guy improve his footing so they aren't injured and unable to go to work on Monday. If you consider a guy cheating for improving where his plant foot sets than your worried about the wrong things. This in my opinion is not cheating.
quickdisc
Jun 03 2005, 09:49 PM
A towel would have help , saving me down time for torn ligaments in my calf. My foot slipped , then gripped on a wet tee area surface. Took about a year to heal.
For saftey reasons , a towel can be used on a tee pad and driven from.
ck34
Jun 04 2005, 12:58 AM
"Faceless" committee member:
Head of Ratings and Course Development Committees
Member of Competition (Chapman and Gentry co-chairs) and Course Evaluation Committees (Kight, Stork, Towne co-chairs)
Yes, these lists should be posted somewhere on this site.
quickdisc
Jun 04 2005, 01:52 AM
Thanks !!!! I know some of us Golfers can not be aware of everything going on around them at all times. My dad used to yell at me and say "Dn kid , pay attention". I was not used to my feet slipping out from under me on a follow through and re-griping !!!!! :eek: OW !!!!!
I don't see a problem using towels to improve footing any more than using rosin to improve gripping, sunglasses/hats to improve vision(ie glare), or chairs to reduce fatige. If kneeling on a disc for comfort reasons is really an issue couldn't it be resolved with knee pads? If placing a towel on the tee pad is an issue couldn't one simply remove his/her shoes and drive with socks? Could cleats be considered improving your lie if you put them on before the start of a round and benifit from them when throwing from a muddy slope? Who knows... who cares? Just throw and the rest will take care of itself. :)
Blarg
Jun 04 2005, 06:11 AM
I certainly don't think there should be a penalty for putting a disc or towel under your knee for a shot from a difficult lie or a potentially injurious one (e.g. sharp rocks). I do have some other questions, though. What about hanging onto a thin tree trunk and leaning?
Is this illegal? If my disc lands next to a pole or branch that I can lean on or hang on while leaning is it legal for me to do so? I've done it in casual rounds and wondered if it was legal, as it gave me a big advantage in some situations.
Anyone have a link that lists members of the rule committee, or other committees for that matter (not the contact link, but a list of who is on each committee)? For me at least, it is hard to find that info on this site.
It's actually only 3 clicks off the Front Page: Rules>>RulesQ&A>> Get Answer [at the very end]:
Yours Sincerely,
The PDGA Rules Committee
Dr. Rick Voakes
Harold Duvall
Joe Garcia
Mark Ellis
Conrad Damon
Carlton Howard
. ;)
Sharky
Jun 04 2005, 08:42 AM
As long as the object is not in front of your lie, enjoy the advantage perfectly legal.
Plankeye
Jun 04 2005, 10:53 AM
I certainly don't think there should be a penalty for putting a disc or towel under your knee for a shot from a difficult lie or a potentially injurious one (e.g. sharp rocks). I do have some other questions, though. What about hanging onto a thin tree trunk and leaning?
Is this illegal? If my disc lands next to a pole or branch that I can lean on or hang on while leaning is it legal for me to do so? I've done it in casual rounds and wondered if it was legal, as it gave me a big advantage in some situations.
This was asked in another thread. I think the consensus said it was ok if:
1) No part of it is in front of your lie.
2) You don't move the object that you are leaning against.
3) Show balance before you move past your lie on a putt.
I certainly don't think there should be a penalty for putting a disc or towel under your knee for a shot from a difficult lie or a potentially injurious one (e.g. sharp rocks). I do have some other questions, though. What about hanging onto a thin tree trunk and leaning?
Is this illegal? If my disc lands next to a pole or branch that I can lean on or hang on while leaning is it legal for me to do so? I've done it in casual rounds and wondered if it was legal, as it gave me a big advantage in some situations.
This was asked in another thread. I think the consensus said it was ok if:
1) No part of it is in front of your lie.
2) You don't move the object that you are leaning against.
3) Show balance before you move past your lie on a putt.
Actually, it's addressed in the Rule Q&A under "Maintaining Balance while Putting."
Wait a minute here ... are we saying that you can lean against a tree that is behind you?? I've been reading this board for the past 5 years and I was certain that you aren't allowed to lean against a tree when throwing your disc ... no matter if it is behind the lie or not.
Please clarify this for me as it means a HUGE difference when putting out of the thick rough.
OK - I just took Fore's advice and read the appropriate section of the Rules Q&A ... I am astonished :eek:
I can't wait to play my next round at Paw Paw knowing I can support myself on a tree to gain access to a forehand flick through a window in the schule! I wonder how many strokes my group of friends and I have lost by not understanding this rule correctly...
Perhaps you've been observing this rule too stringently? <font color="red">803.03 D. A player must choose the stance that will result in the least movement of any part of any obstacle that is a permanent or integral part of the course.</font>
Blarg
Jun 04 2005, 05:43 PM
What I was thinking of when I asked my 'leaning' question was if it was legal to lean on a tree or pole in front of you, or hanging on with one hand to a tree or pole alongside you and leaning towards the basket. All this can be done on some holes without moving your feet and without moving the object (tree, pole, cable, etc.).
No contact in front of, no moving of objects behind. Lots of instances for "temptations" @ OG. ;)
What I was thinking of when I asked my 'leaning' question was if it was legal to lean on a tree or pole in front of you, or hanging on with one hand to a tree or pole alongside you and leaning towards the basket.
Obviously you may not lean on an object closer to the hole than the rear edge of the marker disc, since that would be a violation of 803.03.A(2).
No contact in front of
Actually, 803.03.E details a circumstance in which one may lean on an object between one's self and the hole, provided that the point of contact is no closer to the hole than the rear edge of the marker disc, and that doing so does not violate 803.04.A. From that, one may infer that one is permitted to lean on an object that is closer to the hole than one's stance, provided that the object is no closer to the hole than the rear edge of the marker disc.
From the attitude of your lie, no contact past, and none>>minimal moving of objects behind. ;)