I did a quick search, but not too thoroughly(is that a word?)

For the later half of last year I start rolling my wrist whenever I drove and just couldn't correct it. All winter I focused on keeping it straight or tilted down, and things were good for the first few months of this year, now I'm doing it again. About half of the time when I drive with any disc but my predator, it starts anhyzering (RHBH) almost immediately and barely comes back...this didn't bother me too much last year because I expected it, but now it is not as predictable. And what makes it worse is now I have discs in my bag like an XS, Viking, Beast, Eagle, Sabre (I throw what comes in player paks) So I am trying to figure out if the reason I'm not flipping them all over is because I don't roll my wrist as often or if it's because I am starting to get more spin on some of my throws? I am also wondering what would be the best way to correct this?
Thank you all in advance

One thing that may help your control is this training device. When used regularly it will definately increase your grip and forearm strenght, which in turn will help your control. They sell for around $30-$35. If you may want one, PM me.

http://www.powerballs.com/affiliates.php

Try paying attention to your follow-through...as a slight downward motion may help your bio-mechanics. Explode 'through' the hit...not 'at' the hit.

How far are you throwing on average? I throw somewhere in the 350' or so range on average. I've found, with the Viking, Beast and Sabre at least (I haven't thrown an Eagle or XS) is that when I accidentily turn them over (usually by not giving enough hyzer in a headwind) they take a more gradual anhyzer route and usually have time to fade back, assuming I give them enough height. When I roll my wrist over they just crash into the ground and sometimes become cut rollers.

I battle with wrist roll as well. I found that when I'd throw a hyzer I wouldn't always get the roll so I started there. Once I was aware of it, I found that there was a difference in what I was doing when I was throwing a hyzer compared to a straight throw. Becoming aware of the difference in how my wrist was acting between these two throws has helped me correct the problem a lot. If I think about using my wrist in the same way I would on a hyzer throw, but throwing with an anhyzer angle I'm finally able to get a decent anhyzer going rather than a disc that crashes into the ground 30' in front of me.

I'm only throwing about 250-280 :( but I don't use any form of run up, just all arm.

I find a very useful tip for players I see rolling their wrist is to apply extra pressure on the top of the disc with the thumb.

If you hold your hand out in front of you (straight arm) and do a 'thumbs up', then push your thumb down along the line of your arm until it's in line with your arm, you'll be close. Do the same with a disc in your hand and try that in a field, I bet it helps. 99% of nose up and wrist roll problems I see can be fixed with extra thumb pressure.

I like this topic, it is my latest big problem with my drives. Tell me if I'm wrong but there are two kinds of wrist roll, over and under. Over being clockwise and under being counter clockwise. Under will yield nose up and over will yield discs turning over. I'm turning discs over. I actually am not sure that my wrist/arm is doing a clockwise twist. I'm thinking I might not be keeping my wrist in the down position throughout the throw, and it also seems to help eliminate the off axis torque if I don't follow through low, instead follow through on the same plane I release the disc on. Also thinking about having the spin I put on the disc at release helps is a strategy I use.

I did a quick search, but not too thoroughly(is that a word?)

For the later half of last year I start rolling my wrist whenever I drove and just couldn't correct it. All winter I focused on keeping it straight or tilted down, and things were good for the first few months of this year, now I'm doing it again. About half of the time when I drive with any disc but my predator, it starts anhyzering (RHBH) almost immediately and barely comes back...this didn't bother me too much last year because I expected it, but now it is not as predictable. And what makes it worse is now I have discs in my bag like an XS, Viking, Beast, Eagle, Sabre (I throw what comes in player paks) So I am trying to figure out if the reason I'm not flipping them all over is because I don't roll my wrist as often or if it's because I am starting to get more spin on some of my throws? I am also wondering what would be the best way to correct this?
Thank you all in advance



i'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that it has more to do with your upper body rotation and timing. something common with players that do not use a run up is that they use a linear reach and do not get a strong enough weight transfer forward and then rotate straight across with their throwing shoulder or sometimes slightly downward. the result is that your elbow extension will most often happen late and on an arc in front of you pulling slight right on a nose down slight anhyzer and a bit of torque over. often players with this type of throw compensate by over-closing during their reach back and still extend late, but they do so on a line towards the target but still suffer from anhyzer tendency. chances are, something in your throw has changed a bit and is causing extension to more in the fowards direction but with your current throw style and disc orientation, when they leave straight they are less nose down and possibly flat or even very slightly nose up. i could very well be wrong, but this would describe the flights you have had in the past and explain the variation now.

as for how this compares to how most big throwing pros throw, they generally reach with more of a "fold over" of the throwing shoulder down and across their body and their rotation open is more of an unfolding than a rotation on an axis through the spine with the body upright. you will notice that most of the 1000 rated pros follow through upwards...

here are some pictures contrasting the two styles:

the style i was talking about first:
http://www.discgolfreview.com/resources/images/drose3-4.jpg http://www.discgolfreview.com/resources/images/drose3-5.jpg http://www.discgolfreview.com/resources/images/drose3-6.jpg

the second type of shoulder opening:
http://www.discgolfreview.com/resources/images/pmiddlecamp3-4.jpg http://www.discgolfreview.com/resources/images/pmiddlecamp3-5.jpg http://www.discgolfreview.com/resources/images/pmiddlecamp3-6.jpg

as you can see in the second set, the shoulder folding over and unfolding vs. more of a pure rotation in the first set. the first type always torques a bit... not so much in wrist roll as in more of a shoulder torque.

let me know if this sounds like the culprit... if it isn't i can try to think of other ideas. i would say that you are better off in the long run trying to more emulate the "pro type" of shoulder rotation and a torque free release rather than aspiring to get your anhyzer tendency back and forcing yourself to throw more overstable discs.

The second style seems to be like my throw, I am going to try to take pictures yet this week or weekend

will be interested in seeing the pictures. will be able to tell you a lot more then. was working off of a "best guess" of things people commonly do. i had a few people with turnover/torque problems send me pictures since i posted this and most of them seem to be of the first type.

the person in the first set of frames is at the 360'ish distance plateau and has to throw very overstable discs and needs a distance annie to break 400'. the person in the second set of frames can throw anything and can consistently break 400' with golf shots. visually, the difference is quite subtle but nearly every player i know that can consistently break 400' uses the second type. oddly enough, stokely video #1 teaches form closer to the first type.

Blake,
I decided to post here instead of PM'ing back and forth. Maybe the info can help others too.

joe, i think we found your turnover culprit. it's more about how the shoulder opens than what the reach really looks like, but it appears you are coming through on more of a body axis rotation. that picture does look really good though on how much elbow bend you get.

schwebby is a good person to watch for the shoulder behavior i'm talking about but his is a rather extreme version of it: http://www.discgolfreview.com/resources/analysis/brianschweberger.shtml

blake t.



I am uploading the videos now to Team Stick's Photo Gallery. (http://stickitdg.com/gallery/Driving-Analysis)
I must admit your comments threw me. My impression is you WANTED to keep your shoulders level. All staying as centered and straight as possible over center of gravity. I guess I'm doing this all wrong. So, you are saying to fold over my right shoulder, coming from low and finishing high? What about the order of rotation - feet, legs, waist, shoulder, arm, correct? I guess I'm confused because you mentioned in the PM that I'm using more body axis rotation, thought that would be a good thing. So it's more of a fold over than a straight up axis rotation right? (the light is glowing a bit)

*EDIT*
There appears to be a 2mb limit on files so I had to remove some of them and upload another. Only two ended up under 2mb and they arent the best ones. Blake, hope you can make some sense of my style with only two vids :(

This is the only picture I have online currently The silent grunt (http://us.f3.yahoofs.com/users/41ba47baz745142e6/e54f/__sr_/3eab.jpg?phsxwlCBM7AyAQct)
That was actually one of the straightest throws I've had with an E-Sabre. It still anhyzered quite badly though.

This is the only picture I have online currently.
That was actually one of the straightest throws I've had with an E-Sabre. It still anhyzered quite badly though.



Not sure why but it's not coming up, lemme try.
Picture (http://us.f3.yahoofs.com/users/41ba47baz745142e6/e54f/__sr_/3eab.jpg?ph4BplCBX_ClAQct)

Alright, so neither of those work. How about this one? http://shim1.shutterfly.com/procsserv/F-AOWzNk1bN3Dg4EKXPDXbg.JPG

I must admit your comments threw me. My impression is you WANTED to keep your shoulders level. All staying as centered and straight as possible over center of gravity. I guess I'm doing this all wrong. So, you are saying to fold over my right shoulder, coming from low and finishing high? What about the order of rotation - feet, legs, waist, shoulder, arm, correct? I guess I'm confused because you mentioned in the PM that I'm using more body axis rotation, thought that would be a good thing. So it's more of a fold over than a straight up axis rotation right? (the light is glowing a bit)




i'll admit it's not the most intuitive way to think about it, but many people do start off doing it. the order of opening is the same, hips/torso/shoulder/arm for both styles. it's hard to explain really the second method i talked about, as you still rotate, it's just on a different axis. when this happens the shoulder compacts a little bit and unfolds as it rotates, the result is a greater acceleration of the arm compared to a pure body axis rotation.

i've isolated 3 frames from one of your videos that displays what you are doing to get your discs anhyzer/turned over.

http://www.discgolfreview.com/temp/joet1.jpg
http://www.discgolfreview.com/temp/joet2.jpg
http://www.discgolfreview.com/temp/joet3.jpg

if you look at the second picture you have what i described in my first reply to cani's post: a late extension which leads to a slight pull and anhyzer angle. this is further accented by the low follow through (vs. upwards then down as your body completes its rotation).

Looks like his center of gravity may be too far behind his plant foot, as well. Would this contribute to the anhyzer tendencies?

Looks like his center of gravity may be too far behind his plant foot, as well.



Yea, I flubbed that one up good. The only thing that saved the hard right was the altitude due to throwing behind my CG.

Blake, I tried the fold over after reviewing the pics and vids. All I can say is wow. Where'd all that power come from? On the same hole as the vid (315 footer) I put a disc out to about 290 (slight uphill so should be over 300) with so little effort it was scary. I was throwing a handfull of discs and the first three were with no run up out to about 250. The third I did a leetle X skip and touch more power (maybe 65% of my total at most) and that thing sailed out to a putt out and a deuce. Keep in mind I had maxed about 290 since forever and this hole is my gauge of my throws. That shot matched or beat my best throws before, using any style. Now, not all that day came out like that but when I did it I FEALT exactly what you were saying, now I know what to look for.

On Thurs, at a weekly doubles, I threw some understable midranges with NO run up farther than people in my group with leading steps and a full run up. They were farther than I would have thrown before with a run up. Lots of bad shots but a few awesome ones too. Now I have to groove in this new improved (corrected) throw.

The fold over of the shoulder is like people say, like starting a lawnmower (actually, I would say it's closer to starting a chain saw that you are holding in your left hand waist high). It's so much about smoothness and finesse too. My best shots were when I just fluffed it out there with seemingly little effort.

Once again, you are the man :D

hehe, oddly enough the center of gravity thing is something joe and i had already discussed last month :)

glad to hear you had good results. i always hesitate to use the lawnmower analogy because i believe it would get interpreted as using forced motion.

hoping this fixed your turnover problem too.

I was unable to get any pictures, but I did focus on more of a pull-through motion with my shoulder...it helped tremendously (added about another 50ft on a few holes) it didn't hurt at the time, but now my shoulder's a bit sore. Would the soreness be caused from the change in technique? And is it anything to worry about?

well, from the sound of it, it appears it was something you hadn't been doing... guess a question is whether it made your discs fly more/less overstable.

soreness is never good, but there's really two kinds of soreness:
1) the kind of soreness you get after lifting weights (minor tearing of the fibers)
2) the kind of soreness you get after pulling/tearing a muscle/joint after something like a hyper-extension, sprain, etc. (e.g. you would call this an injury vs. being sore).

there's 3-4 things that are probably the source of the soreness but i can't say for sure which it is. unless you were trying to throw too hard, i'm going to guess you were probably getting more extension than you are accustomed to. ensuring that you get a good pivot during your follow through, etc. should alleviate some of this strain if that is the problem.

About the pain, I forgot when I posted it that I was moving stuff this weekend too, so that's probably the largest source of the pain, and it is the really minor that comes from lifting weights. And to answer the question of stability...I guess I would say more overstable, they weren't fading much at the end, but they also were rarely turning over.

they weren't fading much at the end, but they also were rarely turning over.



sounds like it was a step up to me :D

from how you describe it i would guess you were getting less torque and more nose down.

I wasn't really focusing on the nose down, just more of a smooth pull through instead of a "whip" type throwing motion that I picked up when trying to throw the high speed drivers without having the arm to do it. Thank you much Blake, you were helpful as always