Halleluia!!! This weekend I hit my first round under par. I have been player for 1 year this month.

I was just curious, How long did it take everyone else to hit their first round under par?

If you are talking SSA, then never. The best I have shot on an SSA par is +2 that was after a little over 1 year of playing. My home course, SSA is 51 on everything long, I shot a 53. On John Houcks CR2 ranch in practice I shot a +2 (69) on a par 67 Meandering Greenbelt course.

Now breaking 54....that only took me 8 weeks on my home course, although in the config that time SSA was 47.

What is SSA?

Everyone that I have golfed with just plays everything a par 3 as "Pro par", so that is what I have been shooting for. How do I calculate SSA for my course?

SSA stands for Scratch Score Average, it would be what a 1000 rated pro would shoot on average at the course, ie Kevin McCoy, Coda Hatfield, Avery Jenkins. Par 54, is an easy way to keep score on an 18 hole course. But a 800ft+ hole is a hard 3 for most people, and closer to a par 4. And a 250ft hyzer hole for a pro is basically a guarenteed 2, so there for it would be a par 2, but no one really calls anything a par two.

Go to the tour results page and find the last PDGA tournament played on your home course. And click on course statistics. There will be three columns, Course setup, tournament name, and SSA. The SSA is "par".

Here is my home course
http://www.pdga.com/tournament/course_ratings_by_course.php?RatingCourseID=2

But remember, the SSA par is what the top touring pros shoot. For anybody else, on most courses par 54 is a good guideline for how you are playing. But if you go to some top championship courses, CR2 Ranch San Saba TX, Winthorp Gold. A score better then 54 is almost a miracle.

Good job on breaking par. Any milestone reached should never be looked down upon. It is a great accomplishment. Heck I finally broke 54 on an easy course that I have had a mental block on, the SSA is 42, so my 51 still was not that terrific, but at least I broke "par".

I too learned to play on an easy couse. But on that same course I would shoot 8 down one day and 8 over the next.

Shoot, at my home course right now, I shot my personal best 12 down (with one bogie) and then the next day shot 10 over. (it was much winder though)

As far as when I started? Gee that was back in 1988. I played my very first PDGA tournament 2 months after my first time to play with a golf disc. (I tied for last place money, back when they only paid the top 1/3rd)

I had played Ultimate before disc golf so when I purchased my first golf discs, it was not a matter of throwing far, it was a mater of acuracy. (I was a big arm when I started, isn't that funny)

My first round under par?? I have no idea, but do remember finding out about mini's the 2nd weekend I ever played.

It took me about a year at my home course to go under par. The last SSA recorded at my home course was 4 years ago, but its probably close today (47-48). Its GREAT feeling :D For me, I just finnally felt like I was getting somewhere with my game. Hope it continues

What is par?

Honus,

COngratulations on breaking 54! That's a good achievement. I think it took me about 7 months to break 54.

To find the SSA for a course that has had a PDGA tournament click here. (http://www.pdga.com/tournament/course_ratings_by_course.php) However, SSA does not equal par. It is related to World Class Par (WCP), though. SSA is dynamic and changes over time due to many variables. Even two rounds on the same day of the same tournament will almost never have the same SSA (altough they will be close).

True, par is determined by the course designer.
And by the people in your group.

Play it all par 4, shoot -18!

Sadly, disc golf does not yet have any universally agrred upon standards for par. Believe it or not, Ripley!

Currently there are 2 competing philosophies of how to determnine par. I call these "Ball Golf Par" (BGP) and "World Class Par" (WCP).

BGP is based on the effective length of a hole. An expert player should be able to reach the basket in regulation and have 2 throws to hole out. An eagle must be possible for an expert player. Thus a par 3 is 1 throw to reach the basket plus 2 to hole out.

WCP is based on SSA (which is calculated based on length and foliage). A par 3 will have an SHS (scratch hole score) of 2.500 to 3.499. For an expert player the maximum lenght of a par 3 would require a drive plus an approach shot. It could not be eagled except by the very longest thrower.

Each of these philosophies has advantages and disadvantages.

I'm working on a proposal for a 3rd philosophy of par. Currently I call it Hybrid Par (HyP) until someone can help me think of a catchier name. It attempts to blend the best of the BGP and WCP. The basic idea is that the "green" in disc golf is much larger than that of BG. In this system the green is 0.33 the length of an expert players drive. A par 3 is the length to get to the green plus 2 throws to hole out. The length of a par 3 is thus, the effective length of a hole for an expert player to reach in 1.33 X standard drive length. I'll explain this more someday soon on the "What is Par?" thread.

Also, IMO, par is determined by the player level that the course was designed for. These levels are Gold, Blue, White, Red, Green. In theory the same effect could also be achieved by having multiple tee pads such as BG courses have IF these lengths were consciously designed using guidelines for the appropriate skill level. In reality most courses only have one set of tees, and most older courses are Red or White level. Very, very few courses are, or even should be, Gold level.

I bet this is a way longer answer than you thought you'd get for a simple question. I still hope that someday the PDGA will get around to addressing this fundamental issue.

I knew Lowe would chime in on this one. :D

Personally, since SSA/WCP came out, that's usually the standard I go by. I find that the having the carrot of shooting 1000-rated golf is the goal I strive to achieve. It also helps disc golf track more closely with ball golf where most average joes shoot well over par. In ball golf, most duffers would be ecstatic to shoot in the high 70s, which is about 4-7 strokes over course par. I'm currently playing the Little Lehigh Parkway disc golf course several times a week, with SSA determined by a recent tournament to be 57. I'm shooting rounds there that vary between 61 and 64, so I am in that equivalent range of 4-7 strokes over par.

SSA is also certainly a better measurement when playing very easy courses. The achievement of shooting under 54 may or not be notable depending on SSA - when 1000-rated (scratch) disc golfers shoot 45 or below, 54 is not as much of an accomplishment. Scoring also compares to ball golf and sounds more 'legitimate' to the outside world when reporting scores based on SSA on these type of courses. If I shoot 48 on a layout with SSA 45, 3 over (3 over par 45) sounds much more legit than 6 under. (6 under par 54)

The only issues I have are holes that average 3.5-3.7; for 1000-rated (scratch) disc golfers, these holes will average 3.3-3.5 and will be considered par threes. While I understand that not every two-shot hole will be a par four, even 1000-rated golfers will comment that a par three that will rarely and likely never be deuced seems strange.

I knew Lowe would chime in on this one. :D

Personally, since SSA/WCP came out, that's usually the standard I go by. I find that the having the carrot of shooting 1000-rated golf is the goal I strive to achieve. It also helps disc golf track more closely with ball golf where most average joes shoot well over par. In ball golf, most duffers would be ecstatic to shoot in the high 70s, which is about 4-7 strokes over course par. I'm currently playing the Little Lehigh Parkway disc golf course several times a week, with SSA determined by a recent tournament to be 57. I'm shooting rounds there that vary between 61 and 64, so I am in that equivalent range of 4-7 strokes over par.

SSA is also certainly a better measurement when playing very easy courses. The achievement of shooting under 54 may or not be notable depending on SSA - when 1000-rated (scratch) disc golfers shoot 45 or below, 54 is not as much of an accomplishment. Scoring also compares to ball golf and sounds more 'legitimate' to the outside world when reporting scores based on SSA on these type of courses. If I shoot 48 on a layout with SSA 45, 3 over (3 over par 45) sounds much more legit than 6 under. (6 under par 54)

The only issues I have are holes that average 3.5-3.7; for 1000-rated (scratch) disc golfers, these holes will average 3.3-3.5 and will be considered par threes. While I understand that not every two-shot hole will be a par four, even 1000-rated golfers will comment that a par three that will rarely and likely never be deuced seems strange.



Amen.

Now to only get our local duffers to not (another name for a female dog) about when we put our course long on the bi-weekly rotation. After all SSA is still less then 54 in that setup. It is not about relation to par is it is about total score. If you shoot a 4 on a hole where everyone else gets a 5, then you beat everyone by a stroke, who cares if "disc golf tradition" calls it a par 3, you still beat everyone.

The only issues I have are holes that average 3.5-3.7; for 1000-rated (scratch) disc golfers, these holes will average 3.3-3.5 and will be considered par threes.



Jeff, could you clarify this a little? If a hole averages 3.5-3.7 why wouldn't a scratch (1000 PR player) also average 3.5-3.7? Did you mean to say something like "holes that average 3.5-3.7 for me"?


...While I understand that not every two-shot hole will be a par four, even 1000-rated golfers will comment that a par three that will rarely and likely never be deuced seems strange.



If you follow the WCP philosophy then every 3.5 SHS hole is at the upper end of the length scale. Every one, by definition, will rarely be deuced, maybe only about 3-5% of all times that 1000 PR players play it. Of course, in thr real world very few holes are actually in this narrow length range anyway.

It seems to me that you want to mix the BG philosophy with the WCP philosophy. I think this is very common, but the issues would be clearer if everyone was consistent with the method they adhere to.

Actually I think that BG is mistaken to define par from a standard that according to USGA lenght guidelines for par then par 3s and par 5s should be able to be eagled by scratch players. I think they would have been much more accurate to their USGA definition to define the maximum length of a par 3 as the length necessary to reach the front of the green, instead of the length to reach the pin. The definition is number of shots to the green +2. Hybrid Par is an attempt to make a definition for the maximum length of a par3 that is consistent with getting to the front edge of the "green" plus 2 throws to finish.

At George Ward in Birmingham hole 5 in the long position is 719 ft. Anybody who would call that a par 3 is crazy!

The only issues I have are holes that average 3.5-3.7; for 1000-rated (scratch) disc golfers, these holes will average 3.3-3.5 and will be considered par threes.



Jeff, could you clarify this a little? If a hole averages 3.5-3.7 why wouldn't a scratch (1000 PR player) also average 3.5-3.7? Did you mean to say something like "holes that average 3.5-3.7 for me"?



Lowe, typically when we analyze scores for tournaments we look at the Open and Pro Masters scores and use those to come up with the hole averages. So a hole may average 3.5-3.7 for all pros but 3.3-3.5 for 1000-rated (scratch) disc golfers, for which par is established at par three.

Lowe, typically when we analyze scores for tournaments we look at the Open and Pro Masters scores and use those to come up with the hole averages. So a hole may average 3.5-3.7 for all pros but 3.3-3.5 for 1000-rated (scratch) disc golfers, for which par is established at par three.



Jeff,

Are those straight averages or are they adjusted by player ratings? and what do you the scores you analyze?

At George Ward in Birmingham hole 5 in the long position is 719 ft. Anybody who would call that a par 3 is crazy!



The Open players get 3's on that hole quite often. The average would have to be darn close to 3.5 at that level of play.

The first part of the hole is really easy, just long and wide open. But you HAVE to put your drive past the short placement and in the middle (412ft) to have a chance at making that left turn to land for a putt.

The trees and bushes on the sides at the end of the hole make errant fades or turns disaterous, especially with OB on the left side.

I have only taken a 3 on it twice. Once in practice and once in a tournament. I was the ONLY non pro to take a 3 on that hole during the tournament. I have never seen or heard of anyone taking a 3 without landing their 1st drive at least 420ft. But that remaining 300ft is a doozy that requires pin point accuracy. It is definately one of the best "golf" holes in Alabama.

Thanks for the compliment, but we still consider it a par 3, we just expect to take a 4. We designed a new position on hole #11, it is just over 400ft with the last 80 through a down hill right turn tunnel. I think the pro average on that hole is 3.4, it has never been dueced.

So I just got this girl into playing disc golf a month ago and she already has 2 55's ( +1's ) I think that's pretty d@mn amazing, this course's SSA is about 46 and probably took me at least a month or 2 to break par.

...we still consider it a par 3, we just expect to take a 4.



Why not call it what it is-- a par 4? You play it in your head as a par 4 anyway. Then you'll be elated when you get the rare birdie 3.

this course's SSA is about 46 and probably took me at least a month or 2 to break par.



What is par on that course? Is it 46? If you use the WCP method then par should be in the neighborhood of 46, so you've got about 8 par 2s.

well par would be 54, a 1000 rated round would be around 46 and a +1 55 would be about an 880 rated round. That's what I call a really good round for a girl who just started playing a month ago. I think with a little practice she'll be consistantly shooting over 900 within a year, but we'll see.

... probably took me at least a month or 2 to break par.



I don't even like to use the terms "par, birdie, bogey, over or under par" anymore because they have so little real meaning in disc golf.

How can a person talk about par when an adequate method to determine par has not even been agreed upon?

Lowe, typically when we analyze scores for tournaments we look at the Open and Pro Masters scores and use those to come up with the hole averages. So a hole may average 3.5-3.7 for all pros but 3.3-3.5 for 1000-rated (scratch) disc golfers, for which par is established at par three.



Jeff,

Are those straight averages or are they adjusted by player ratings? and what do you the scores you analyze?



They are straight averages of the Open and Pro Masters scores and not adjusted for player rating. We may throw certain scores out if there are outliers (e.g. 790-rated golfer playing in Open) We did a lot of analysis in the past while building the Warwick course. Using several tournaments worth of data gave us a feel for how different tees and polehole positions played, and we moved tees or polehole positions accordingly. Holes that played too easily were made longer; for examples, the Blue pin on hole 15 was pushed back a good deal to make it a true pro par five on the Blue-Blue layout. Conversely, the 1000 foot long par five 18th hole was actually shortened 100 feet to 'only' 900 feet long because no one was scoring a birdie four on it.

Most recently, we have done a lot of this analysis on the Pro Worlds 2005 courses with Jordan Creek, Nockamioxon and Little Lehigh Parkway.