No names, please. I'd like to keep this discussion on the topic not the person.

Recently I was in a foursome during the second round of play in a tournament. One player, who had been increasingly frustrated at his game and by the fact that - with only 4-5 holes left, many other groups had finished and some loud 'casuals' were beginning to play, finally had his limit.

After missing a 45-footer, he walked up to his disc, which was about 6 feet from the basket, and threw it at *drive* strength into the chains. It bounced out. He did it again, from like 2 feet. It bounced out. He exaggeratedly picked up the disc and gently placed it in the basket and walked away.

I felt that the *driving* of a putt into a basket in anger with full force, twice, knowing the likelihood of a miss, and especially in light of the previous several holes' grumping around was a courtesy violation and issued a warning. (Much like kicking your bag in anger, in terms of effect, from my perspective.)

The others in my group (I think not wanting this guy to escalate any more.) disagreed, saying that even if it was at 60 mph and destined to bounce out, it was a putt and thus *could not* be a courtesy violation.

What do others think?

Courtesy violation. Doesn't matter what others in your group thought since courtesy violations don't require a second. The fact that the player, in effect, penalized himself by throwing in a manner likely to produce a bounce-out is irrelevant to whether or not a courtesy violation occurred. The fact that abuse of course equipment is grounds for DQ (804.05.A(2)) is, a fortiori, grounds for considering abuse of course equipment a courtesy violation as well.

An obvious physical display of anger would seem to be worthy of a warning. Everyone mumbles and grumbles, but acting out is over the line.

i have no problem with the interpretationthat provides for a courtesy violation. however, unless he was screaming and yelling while driving from six feet, i would not asses a penalty. its his shot, he can throw as he wishes. it is way too difficult to say with certainty that the throws were in anger. given the distractions, perhaps he was trying to gather his focus, or some such absolutely nonsensical but completely defensible reason.

imo nothing illegal about throwing a disc. no warning.

so were his throws falling putts?? :Da throw is a throw.

Throwing a disc at drive force speeds at a basket cannot be considered abuse of course equipment or else we would get warned and penalized for every ace and metal hit we have from the tee box.

Grumbling, although it is not pleasant to hear would not consitute a warning in my interpretation. Putting fast would not either. I have played with many people who putt insanely fast, when they miss they miss bad. I would be hard pressed to warn someone about putting fast.

Even though it was obvious that this person was visibly upset and angry, they choose to vent in a manner which only actually affected themselves. Yelling could distract a player on another hole, kicking a bag can send discs airborne.

If I knew the guy personally, I would try to talk to him on the walk to the next hole to try and calm him down.

choose to vent in a manner which only actually affected themselves.



Ive seen someone take a "driving" putt that missed chains entirely and the disc promptly ended up hitting a groupmate in the side of the face about 20 feet away. Did putting in anger affect only the thrower? Ask the guy who couldnt see out of his right eye for the next 5 minutes :p I'd call courtesy violation, this is obviously a display of poor sportsmanship.

Was that person standing behind the player? If not, why was he in the players line of sight? Are you not supposed to standing behind the throwing players lie?

I am not blaming the victim at all in your case. But you do point out an exception to my example.

I would say that it is most definately NOT a courtesy violation. Just read the rule. He's not breaking any of the listed rules. The rules do not require us to play with Vulcan-like stoicism.

I've had this happen except I was on another card about to putt on my final hole when this jack-donkey in the distance (and in my line of sight BTW) starts his tirade. Perhaps another card would/could take the honors if they were ticked off enough...

No rule violation. I've done this it's cathartic. Walked away from the basket smiling. How did this warrant a courtesy warning?

someone should warn this guy that terry plans to revoke his player rating next time he gets mad.

: ) :

Throwing a disc at drive force speeds at a basket cannot be considered abuse of course equipment or else we would get warned and penalized for every ace and metal hit we have from the tee box.

That argument is so farcical it wouldn't merit a response, save for the fact that it's been advanced.

The issue isn't whether or throwing a disc full force into a basket constitutes abuse of course equipment, it's whether or not throwing a disc full force into a basket ]b]from 6'[/b] (or 2', or 10', or 20') constitutes abuse of course equipment.

The principle by which throwing a disc full force into a basket from 6' can be considered abuse of course equipment but throwing a disc full force from the teepad cannot is called "proportionality." In the the case of a drive from the teepad, the force of the throw disc is commensurate to the force necessary to propel the disc from the teepad to the basket; in the case of a full force drive from 6', the force of the throw is grossly excessive to what is necessary to propel the disc from the lie to the basket. Furthermore, simple physics dictates that in the case of a drive from the teepad, the force of the throw will have been significantly dissipated by the time the disc reaches the basket, whereas they will be largely intact for a full-force drive from 6'. (If you don't believe that to be the case, get a friend hit you with a disc thrown full force from 300', then with a disc thrown full force from 6'. :D) Therefore, in the former case, the application of full force is proportionate and therefore appropriate, whereas in the latter case, the application of full force is not proportionate and therefore not appropriate.

I don't buy the argument that this can not be a courtesy violation. The list is merely a sample of the possible violations, not the complete universe. Therefore, I don't feel constrained by the rule language to limit violations to those listed. However, I can understand the argument that it should not be considered a courtesy violation.

My basic view is this: outbursts that are limited to a short period (2 seconds) are acceptable. You know, the cuss word, the foot stomping, even the mild kick at the bag or mini. As a fellow player, these come quickly and are gone. It's the ones that linger which bother me. These are the ones that others in the group must constantly deal with. They tend to effect your focus and often steal your fun.

In other words, courtesy is not allowing your negative emotions to effect others. A quick loss of temper is undesirable, but understandable. Anything subsequent is discourteous.

So, I would have put up with the first outburst. I would have warned him on the second. I'm getting too old to put up with babies on the golf course.

One player, who had been increasingly frustrated at his game and by the fact that - with only 4-5 holes left, many other groups had finished and some loud 'casuals' were beginning to play, finally had his limit.



I'll sympathize a tiny bit on being frustrated by loud casual players. If this was a PDGA tournament, the course should have been closed to casual play, imo.



After missing a 45-footer, he walked up to his disc, which was about 6 feet from the basket, and threw it at *drive* strength into the chains.



This is what sent him over the edge? Missing a 45-footer? Who does he think he is, Cam Todd? :D

Throwing a disc at drive force speeds at a basket cannot be considered abuse of course equipment or else we would get warned and penalized for every ace and metal hit we have from the tee box.

That argument is so farcical it wouldn't merit a response, save for the fact that it's been advanced.

The issue isn't whether or throwing a disc full force into a basket constitutes abuse of course equipment, it's whether or not throwing a disc full force into a basket ]b]from 6'[/b] (or 2', or 10', or 20') constitutes abuse of course equipment.

The principle by which throwing a disc full force into a basket from 6' can be considered abuse of course equipment but throwing a disc full force from the teepad cannot is called "proportionality." In the the case of a drive from the teepad, the force of the throw disc is commensurate to the force necessary to propel the disc from the teepad to the basket; in the case of a full force drive from 6', the force of the throw is grossly excessive to what is necessary to propel the disc from the lie to the basket. Furthermore, simple physics dictates that in the case of a drive from the teepad, the force of the throw will have been significantly dissipated by the time the disc reaches the basket, whereas they will be largely intact for a full-force drive from 6'. (If you don't believe that to be the case, get a friend hit you with a disc thrown full force from 300', then with a disc thrown full force from 6'. :D) Therefore, in the former case, the application of full force is proportionate and therefore appropriate, whereas in the latter case, the application of full force is not proportionate and therefore not appropriate.



Even at close range, throwing a plastic disc into galvanized steel chains cannot be considered abuse of course equipment. Note the 'willful and overt destruction' clause in that rule.

Wow, that is a pretty weak call IMO. If anything, I'd want to encourage someone to blast their putts in from close range so they spit out. No cursing? No bag kicking? Just a hard throw at a basket and you warn him? Terrible call. Throwing at a basket is nothing like 'kicking your bag in anger' from most anyone's perspective.

I'd love to know what 'exaggeratedly picked up his disc' means as well.

Seems like the message board issues are effecting Terry's on course demeanor a bit. :D

No violation; no penalty.
I would definitely take that player aside and explain that he's about to receive a warning if his behavior continues to disrupt the group.
Education before penalization.

Cool, clearly a diverse set of opinions. All reponses are appreciated.

Was that person standing behind the player? If not, why was he in the players line of sight? Are you not supposed to standing behind the throwing players lie?



The person who was hit was standing probably at a 30 to 45-degree angle from the thrower in relation to the thrower and the pin. (yup, it was a griplocked full-power putt) He was not in the "line of sight", altho he was obviously in the "field of view". Nowhere in the rules does it say you must stand behind the thrower 100% of the time. If that were the case galleries would never be allowed, groups would be a large cluster**** around the pin doing a big circle-dance to make sure everyone is always 100% behind the thrower, etc. Sometimes it happens that people are in front of you to some degree - and if you have a problem with where people are standing, you can ask them to move. And they certainly dont expect to be in any danger when you're 3' from the pin and they're standing well to the side.

I should say i dont think a forceful putt is 100% of the time a courtesy violation. But I certainly think it can be grounds for one being called.

Throwing a disc at drive force speeds at a basket cannot be considered abuse of course equipment or else we would get warned and penalized for every ace and metal hit we have from the tee box.

That argument is so farcical it wouldn't merit a response, save for the fact that it's been advanced.

The issue isn't whether or throwing a disc full force into a basket constitutes abuse of course equipment, it's whether or not throwing a disc full force into a basket ]b]from 6'[/b] (or 2', or 10', or 20') constitutes abuse of course equipment.

The principle by which throwing a disc full force into a basket from 6' can be considered abuse of course equipment but throwing a disc full force from the teepad cannot is called "proportionality." In the the case of a drive from the teepad, the force of the throw disc is commensurate to the force necessary to propel the disc from the teepad to the basket; in the case of a full force drive from 6', the force of the throw is grossly excessive to what is necessary to propel the disc from the lie to the basket. Furthermore, simple physics dictates that in the case of a drive from the teepad, the force of the throw will have been significantly dissipated by the time the disc reaches the basket, whereas they will be largely intact for a full-force drive from 6'. (If you don't believe that to be the case, get a friend hit you with a disc thrown full force from 300', then with a disc thrown full force from 6'. :D) Therefore, in the former case, the application of full force is proportionate and therefore appropriate, whereas in the latter case, the application of full force is not proportionate and therefore not appropriate.



Even at close range, throwing a plastic disc into galvanized steel chains cannot be considered abuse of course equipment. Note the 'willful and overt destruction' clause in that rule.

While you're at it, note the phrase "or abuse" that immediately follows "willful and overt destruction."

Would intentionally throwing a disc full force into a tree from close range be considered "abuse of plant life"? Would intentionally throwing a disc full force into a metal lamp pole from close range be considered "abuse of course equipment or property considered part of the disc golf course or the park"? Would intentionally throwing a disc full force into a maintenance shed from close range in the course parking lot be considered "abuse of property considered part of the park"? Would intentionally throwing a disc full force into a metal No Parking sign from close range in the course parking lot be considered "abuse of property considered part of the park"? Would intentionally throwing a disc full force into a metal tee sign from close range be considered "abuse of course equipment"? Would intentionally throwing a disc full force into a Tone Pole from close range so that it dents the Tone Pole, be considered "abuse of course equipment"?

There are some players that you never want to be standing to the right of at any time just because of grip locks.

There is an argument in 801.01.A that could lead to a courtesy warning/violation, but it depends on the common sense of the thrower. They must be "certain" the disc will not potentally injure anypne present.


Players should not throw until they are certain that the thrown disc will not distract another player or potentially injure anyone present.

It does not matter if he was in his line of sight, it would be the throwers responsibilty to ask the away player to move if he was distracting. I would say that throwing in anger is not a courtesy violation, but throwing in anger and striking someone definitely is. If for no other reason than because he was out of control.


Was that person standing behind the player? If not, why was he in the players line of sight? Are you not supposed to standing behind the throwing players lie?

I am not blaming the victim at all in your case. But you do point out an exception to my example.

ad nauseam.

Would intentionally throwing a disc full force into a tree from close range be considered "abuse of plant life"? Would intentionally throwing a disc full force into a metal lamp pole from close range be considered "abuse of course equipment or property considered part of the disc golf course or the park"? Would intentionally throwing a disc full force into a maintenance shed from close range in the course parking lot be considered "abuse of property considered part of the park"? Would intentionally throwing a disc full force into a metal No Parking sign from close range in the course parking lot be considered "abuse of property considered part of the park"? Would intentionally throwing a disc full force into a metal tee sign from close range be considered "abuse of course equipment"? Would intentionally throwing a disc full force into a Tone Pole from close range so that it dents the Tone Pole, be considered "abuse of course equipment"?



Probably.

Had he thrown his disc in full force at any of the above objects, you might have a valid point.

He didn't, and you don't.

Would intentionally throwing a disc full force into a metal lamp pole from close range be considered "abuse of course equipment or property considered part of the disc golf course or the park"? Would intentionally throwing a disc full force into a maintenance shed from close range in the course parking lot be considered "abuse of property considered part of the park"? Would intentionally throwing a disc full force into a metal No Parking sign from close range in the course parking lot be considered "abuse of property considered part of the park"? Would intentionally throwing a disc full force into a metal tee sign from close range be considered "abuse of course equipment"? Would intentionally throwing a disc full force into a Tone Pole from close range so that it dents the Tone Pole, be considered "abuse of course equipment"?



I highly doubt a plastic disc would cause damage to any of the metal park equipment you've listed, so the answer is no.

And I've never played a Tone Pole course, but I doubt they can be dented with a plastic disc. Can someone else with Tone Pole experience provide an answer?

This argument seems off point. It is basically a temper tantrum that can easily be viewed as a courtesy violation. Would you allow this guy to do this crap every hole? Would you still argue that he is only hurting himself? Whiny behaviour in disc golf is all too common because so many continue to excuse it.

If the player putted at drive strength on every hole, I would attempt to advise him to adopt a safer (for his score and for everyone standing within 50') putting style.

If he is doing this multiple times clearly in anger, there is going to be something that the player is going to do while he is not throwing a disc that rates a courtesy violation.

I highly doubt a plastic disc would cause damage to any of the metal park equipment you've listed, so the answer is no.

You've obviously never seen sheet metal storage sheds.

If you don't think a plastic disc could damage a metal "No Parking" sign, I invite you to go out to any street that has a No Parking sign and hit it with a disc thrown full force from close range. I guarantee it will damage the sign. The same is true for a sheet metal tee sign.

A further question: is damage necessary for abuse to occur? Is it OK for a player jump on or kick the lower entrapment device, pick up a branch and break it over a basket or tee sign, yank on a basket or tee sign, or kick a bench behind the teepad, as long as he doesn't overtly damage it?

I don't buy the argument that this can not be a courtesy violation. The list is merely a sample of the possible violations, not the complete universe. Therefore, I don't feel constrained by the rule language to limit violations to those listed. However, I can understand the argument that it should not be considered a courtesy violation.

My basic view is this: outbursts that are limited to a short period (2 seconds) are acceptable. You know, the cuss word, the foot stomping, even the mild kick at the bag or mini. As a fellow player, these come quickly and are gone. It's the ones that linger which bother me. These are the ones that others in the group must constantly deal with. They tend to effect your focus and often steal your fun.

In other words, courtesy is not allowing your negative emotions to effect others. A quick loss of temper is undesirable, but understandable. Anything subsequent is discourteous.

So, I would have put up with the first outburst. I would have warned him on the second. I'm getting too old to put up with babies on the golf course.



Nothing sums up the issue for me better than James's post; It's all about distraction. Rule 805 is consistent with that.

A. A player may be disqualified by the director for meeting any of the necessary conditions of disqualification as set forth in the rules, or for any of the following:
(1) Unsportsmanlike conduct, such as; loud cursing, throwing things in anger (other than discs in play), or overt rudeness to anyone present.

It only takes an agreement that the player was exhibiting unsportsmanlike actions. In this case, and many like it, it comes down to the players' interpretation. Terry felt it was a distraction, the other players felt it wasn't. For me the majority choice is the correct one.

It is unfortunate that many of us don't respond the same to the same distraction. For some, any distraction is a burden. For others, almost nothing is a distraction. That is why it is good to have multiple players weigh in on an issue.

Had he thrown his disc in full force at any of the above objects, you might have a valid point.

He didn't, and you don't.

If an on-course action is abusive to plants, other course equipment, or other objects that are part of the course or the park, it is abusive to baskets as well. The fact that a basket is designed to catch discs in no way justifies throwing a disc into it with grossly excessive force.

805.A.1 "...throwing things in anger (other than discs in play)..."

if you give him a warning/penalty for throwing angry throw, then you are necessarily admitting that the disc was NOT in play.
however, thats not possible since it was during the round and it went more than 2M. now, if he was 1M away from the basket and the disc smacked chains, bounced back towards him and landed .5M from the basket, then you could possibly say it was in play - after all itwasnt a throw or practice throw. thats if you wanted to penalize him.

but the rule explicitly prevents you from penalizing an in play throw.

sorry. it might not make sense, but thats the letter of the law.

suspending the 2MR doesnt make much sense either... but we all know whats happening with that one!

You've obviously never seen sheet metal storage sheds.

If you don't think a plastic disc could damage a metal "No Parking" sign, I invite you to go out to any street that has a No Parking sign and hit it with a disc thrown full force from close range. I guarantee it will damage the sign. The same is true for a sheet metal tee sign.

A further question: is damage necessary for abuse to occur? Is it OK for a player jump on or kick the lower entrapment device, pick up a branch and break it over a basket or tee sign, yank on a basket or tee sign, or kick a bench behind the teepad, as long as he doesn't overtly damage it?



Of the examples you've listed, I have a hard time believing anyone could do damage. They'd more than likely end up hurting themselves first. They make those things tough for a reason.

And as Dan pointed out, it's really irrelevant. What actually occurred was throwing a plastic disc at high speed and close range into galvanized steel chains. In my book, that definitely does not qualify as "Willful and overt destruction or course hardware, or any other property considered part of the disc golf course or the park."

The issue is whether that was a courtesy violation.

I'm probably wrong, but I don't agree with this interpretation of the rules. My interpretation is that you are not allowed to throw anything in anger, at any time, including a disc. The rule is written the way it is to distinguish the throwing of a disc in play from throwing an "item" in anger. Having said that, I will agree in advance that determining that a disc thrown in anger is tougher to distinguishing than some other item thrown in anger. However, it's a little like porn, it is hard to describe but I know it when I see it.

In my opinion there is no excuse for throwing any item in anger during a round, whether it be a disc, a mini, or a minivan.

Frankly, I would much rather a player throw his bag in anger than a disc. My logic is best explained by telling a story. In college I played club badminton. I was soundly thrashing a player from another team when he got mad and spanked the bird into the floor. It popped up and hit me squarely in the eye. I now have to wear glasses thank you. One might argue that he just hit the bird, but his anger caused him to do something stupid that I had to pay for. My guess is that the rules that govern our sport were not written intending to allow players to huck their discs in anger even it is towards the target.

That aside, I still agree with the ruling, I might not like it (although I wasn't there) but I still agree with it.

something like that happened in a casual round a couple months ago. One of my friends wasn't having a good round cause he was missing putts badly. He took a crystal challenger and fired it at the basket. he missed the basket and nailed another guy that was playing with us in the head....

there was about to be a rumble...and i wasn't even going to stop it

altho i do not agree throwing a disc in anger warrants a penalty i do agree that one that hits another player should be severely penalized. i had a similar situation a coupla summers at our wednesday (short tees) mini. a fellow who was doing some business in Ft Worth was playing those minis regularly. he wasnt one of the "locals", but he fit in pretty good if you could past his mercedes and oil-man entrepreneur style. anyway, one night after a missed putt he let one fly. it missed my mug by less than six inches, and it was going fast (from less than 10M away). basically he griplocked the thing. only my zen studies kept his lips from tasting knuckle. throw something in anger... no harm no foul. hurt someone in anger... you lose your park priviledges.

These posts are illustrative of the culture of acceptance of inappropriate behaviour in disc golf.

These posts are illustrative of the culture of acceptance of inappropriate behaviour in disc golf.



ill agree with that.

sandalman, you really think it's not inappropriate until someone gets hurt? you yourself said you almost let loose on a guy and he didnt even hit you. It's unsportsmanlike conduct at best, and blatant disregard for others' potential personal safety at worst. I dont see where people can say that type of behaviour on the course is acceptable, at all.

well, first of all, i should have said "...throw a disc in ager..." throwing anything else is warning without question.

upon further reflection, i probably overstated my position. especially because the guy was already holed out. if he had been still throwing at the basket to complete the hole, i'd probably be a bit more tolerant, even if he was throwing in anger. after all, i could have been stroked for standing where i was.

so, a throw in anger that puts another person at risk should be at least a warning. a throw that hits someone whould be DQ, no exceptions. kinda like in the NBA... if you swing your fist in the direction of the ref, its a technical. but hit him/her, even if accidental, and you be gone for at least the night.

but throw in anger and not put someone at risk... i still think its questionable to give a warning on that. if the thrower is 2M from the basket and his angry throw hits the basket and falls to the ground, ok. if his anger results in an errant throw thgat buzzes the next vard over, thats a warning at least.

Had he thrown his disc in full force at any of the above objects, you might have a valid point.

He didn't, and you don't.

If an on-course action is abusive to plants, other course equipment, or other objects that are part of the course or the park, it is abusive to baskets as well. The fact that a basket is designed to catch discs in no way justifies throwing a disc into it with grossly excessive force.



805.a.1 - (1) Unsportsmanlike conduct, such as; loud cursing, throwing things in anger (other than discs in play), or overt rudeness to anyone present.

He didn't curse. He was not rude. He threw a disc in play. End of story, no reason for a courtesy violation.

Terry didn't tell us what happened afterward, but if I had to guess I'd say the guy was probably pretty calm. He 'vented' his frustrations in a very legal manner and moved on.

To say this is 'inexcusable' behavior is ridiculous. What is the guy supposed to do, sing hare krishnas and hand out flowers while he plays?

Of the examples you've listed, I have a hard time believing anyone could do damage. They'd more than likely end up hurting themselves first. They make those things tough for a reason.

That's the problem: you have a hard time "believing," but you' haven't tried, nor, apparently, are you willing to try, it to see how easy or how difficult it can be.


And as Dan pointed out, it's really irrelevant. What actually occurred was throwing a plastic disc at high speed and close range into galvanized steel chains. In my book, that definitely does not qualify as "Willful and overt destruction or course hardware, or any other property considered part of the disc golf course or the park."

The issue is whether that was a courtesy violation.

It is relevant to the issue of whether or not it's a courtesy violation because, as I stated previously, since ABUSE, as well as destruction, of course equipment is grounds for DQ�interesting that you refuse to acknowledge that 804.05.A(1) penalizes abuse as well as destruction�it is, [/ia fortiori[/i], a courtesy violation as well.

Sandalan:
f you give him a warning/penalty for throwing angry throw, then you are necessarily admitting that the disc was NOT in play.

You're not warning/penalizing him for throwing a disc in anger, you're warning/penalizing him for abuse of course equipment.

You're not warning/penalizing him for throwing a disc in anger, you're warning/penalizing him for abuse of course equipment.

while i understand from where you are coming, i fail to see any way one could possibly claim that throwing a disc golf disc at a disc golf target with nothing but arm power could be considered abuse of course equipment. sorry.. cant go along with ya that far.

Man, y'all sure like to complicate things. ;)

The rules lists examples of discourteous actions. This clearly was not intended to be an exhaustive list. It does not take a logical stretch to add "being a whiny baby" to that list. Again, suppose this guy did this for multiple holes: every hole he just kept wizzing his "putt" past the basket. You still don't think that is a courtesy violation, just because it doesn't neatly fit into the examples in the rules. In my mind, a continuous display of infantile behaviour is ground for dq and suspension.

Then there a few players that should be DQed for showing up :D

The original question said nothing of any other bad behavior nor that this was a repeat performance. If you want to add those conditions to the question, I am sure you will get different responses.

My point is if the player is that upset, they will shortly do something that is on the list, or at least something that isn't specifically exempted from the list and you can penalize them for that action. Discs in play are specifically exempted from the things you aren't allowed to throw in anger. You can throw a disc in anger and break another rule with the result, but you can't break the rule by throwing a disc in play.

I would first try to settle things without bringing the rules into play. We can settle this without having to call the rules police. The point here is to try, if all fails then we use the rules.

Confront the player first, tell them to calm down, take a chill pill. If they keep playing out in anger, putting hard and missing then that person is only hurting their score.

Some people rush and take joy in rule-mongering. WE all know written rules aren't perfect. We should only use them as the last result. Try to settle things as adults instead of running to the rule book and threaten people with DQ or strokes.

Rules for DG are there to keep the game moving smooth and fluid, which doesn't always happen. Don't use the rules as a crutch, the rules are there to guide people not to punish them. We all get angry, we get frustrated, that person may need some verbal support. I know bad moods can ruin the cards mood, but communication is how we settle problems. Confront and communicate, leave the rules for serious offenses and when weird things happen.

Confront the player first, tell them to calm down, take a chill pill

BUT ONLY if they have a prescription!

after all, i could have been stroked for standing where i was.



i'd still love to know where this mythical rule is that you think you could be stroked for standing anywhere in a thrower's field of vision.

to others, the "such as" clause of unsportsmanlike conduct is there to leave it open ended. as someone above said, you cant spell out each and every infraction that constitutes such conduct.

and to the people trying to say this is an "abuse of course equipment" issue.... i appreciate the fact we agree this player is in the wrong, but i think your angle is way off. the baskets are made to catch discs, be they 15' putts with soft, rounded-edge discs or from 500' out screaming in with sharp-edged champion plastic. full-driving a putt does not constitute "abuse": at least not of the course equipment. your super-floppy, perfectly beat 3x jk-aviar might be better off if you dont do that tho. ;)

801.01.B B. Players should take care not to produce any distracting noises or any potential visual distractions for other players who are throwing. Examples of discourteous actions are: shouting, cursing, freestyling, slapping course equipment, throwing out of turn, throwing or kicking golf bags, and advancing on the fairway beyond the away player. ...

I'm sure that is the rule they are referencing. You should take care not to produce any potential visual distractions as well as not proceeding further down the fairway than the away player. It's more the visual distraction part than the further down the fairway once everyone is around the basket.

and to the people trying to say this is an "abuse of course equipment" issue.... i appreciate the fact we agree this player is in the wrong, but i think your angle is way off. the baskets are made to catch discs, be they 15' putts with soft, rounded-edge discs or from 500' out screaming in with sharp-edged champion plastic.

The fact that baskets are made to catch discs is irrelevant to the question of whether or not driving a disc into a basket from close range constitutes abuse. If, instead of a basket, the target were a 4x4 cedar post (on an object course, for example), would driving a disc into it full force from close range (in this case, not once, but twice) constitute abuse of course equipment? After all, the 4x4 post is there to be struck by thrown discs.

Are you a lawyer or something?

Seems like you just want to argue this to death. :D

No, but maybe he stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night...


If, instead of a basket, the target were a 4x4 cedar post (on an object course, for example), would driving a disc into it full force from close range (in this case, not once, but twice) constitute abuse of course equipment?



No.

Felix, you are alone on an island with the 'abuse' idea. It was a valiant effort, alas it was in a losing cause. Cheer up because we do have some nice consolation prizes for you backstage!

The original question did not ask about throwing a disc at a 4x4 wooden post and even if it did, I would not call that willful abuse of course equipment. Throwing a metal mini at the post or even the basket after missing a putt, I would call a courtesy violation and willful damage, DG plastic, no.

This only proves that abuse (like beauty and many other things) is subjective and in the eye of the beholder.

Terry would have been well within his rights to issue a courtesy warning.

Mike, if we assume that you are correct (and personally I don't think you are, but let's go with it), then that is a huge problem with the courtesy violation rule, and could lead to potential abuse.

If there is a rule that specifically states that you can't be stroked for 'throwing a disc in play' - angry or not (and there is), then finding a loophole to stroke someone by using the abuse of course property rule is total b.s. Not much different than the guy that tried to stroke someone for throwing grass in the air to check the wind under the same reasoning.

The player in question exhibited none of the stated (in the rule book) reasons for legitimate courtesy violations and can't be stroked for what he did.

While I think that Dan has a very interesting and even valid point, I still disagree. We often talk about common sense and intent when we talk about the rules and their application. I do not believe that the intent of this rule was to say, "It is O.K. to throw a disc in anger as long as it's your turn and you throw it towards the basket." Common sense tells us this is not O.K. and never should be. We can only guess at the intent of the individuals that wrote the rule but somehow I don't think they sat around a table and thought, "well, you know, as long as it's their turn, it's O.K. for a player to wank his disc as hard as he can in anger." Again, I'm pretty confident that the wording was meant to distinguish a thought out throw from any other action. I would even include a player throwing while angry. The difference is, a player making an angry throw vs. a player throwing while angry. I can be mad as all get out but still step up to the T and make my choosen shot. Or I can be mad as all get out and wank my disc into the basket. Yes I did throw at the target but my intent was not a controlled shot, it was an angry tirade. There is a clear distinction and common sense and intent tell us that a throw of this nature is a) dangerous, and b) inappropriate.

Perhaps it is time for an interpretation by the rules committee. Do they really intend that a player should be able to wank his disc in anger as long as it's his turn and he throws it somewhat in the direction of the target. Let's see.

Wow.. I haven't posted here for nearly a year but this is too good to pass up...

No Foul. The simple fact that the discussion has turned into a debate about what constitutes 'equipment abuse' is proof enough that the call has no validity.

Some people throw drives extra hard to 'vent'... is that bad? At what speed is a putt deemed 'too aggressive'?

I realize that this person was building up steam but there is a 110% difference between bag kicking and ripping a disc in play.

almost Lyle, but not quite. the rules SPECIFICALLY allow for disc to be thrown in anger. assuming its the throwers turn to throw. what if the angry man's next shot was a drive? i know for a fact that i have thrown one drive under the influence of intense, barely-controllable anger. it went real far and in the right direction, too. are you suggesting that i could/should have been stroked/warned? (that would have REALLY pizzed me off :) )

the only way out of the hole your side of the argument is in is to start talking about degrees of anger, position reltative to the pin, etc. you're gonna need a doctorate in pschyciatry to even get close, and i suspect that wont even come close.

give up. your argument is with the fact that the rules EXPLICITY allow it. its not a matter for interpretation.

IMO, the equipment abuse argument is irrelevent. I also don't buy the argument that "if it ain't in that list, it ain't a courtesy violation."

As a question to those that do not feel that this is a courtesy violation, I ask again, would you allow him to do this hole after hole, or fifteen times on one hole? (Please, leave the "he's only hurting himself" arguments at home)

The rules only specify it in the DQ section where throwing a disc in anger is not a DQable offense. It is not mentioned in the courtesy violations.

I hear you Dan. I'm only pointing out that what is abuse or discourtesy to one person may not be such to another. The way the courtesy rule is written, it gives one player the power to issue a warning and stroke without the need for a second. The check to that power is that the warned or stroked player can always go to the TD and have the call declared BS.

The other thing to remember, and it has been said here many times, that the list of offenses and examples given in the rule book are not exhaustive. Wiping your muddy hands on another player's shirt isn't listed, but I think almost everyone would agree that it is discourteous.

Another point is that the "throwing things in anger" comes under 804.05 - DQ and Suspension, not the courtesy rule. Nonetheless, I find that behaviour discourteous to me personally. I realize that not everyone is offended by it, but I am.

Incidentally, I don't think that the player in the instant case is guilty of abuse of course equipment, since the target did not break or get damaged. But the behaviour is rude in my opinion and rudeness is discourteous.

I may sound like an etiquette snob, but I'm not. I just hate to see civility and manners go any further downhill than they already have. The introduction to the rules states that the game "expects high standards of etiquette and courtesy" so I'm not just pulling this out of the sky.

Re: abuse of park equipment, etc.

Throwing a disc forcefully at a disc golf target wouldn't necessarily be considered abusive, since that target is designed to take that throw. Now, if a player, after holing out and prior to teeing off on the next hole, threw several anger-laden shots at the basket just played, that could be considered abusive and subject to disqualification.

Throwing a disc forcefully at a sign (tee sign or parking lot or whatever) IS abuse, since that sign is meant to be read, not thrown at. Same goes for the garbage can, the restroom building, the picnic table. If it's not meant to catch a disc, then don't throw at it intentionally.

Re: discs in play thrown in anger.

I would imagine that a player throwing the disc in play in anger will most always utter a loud curse or otherwise be overtly rude to someone at the same time. The fact that the disc is in play does not excuse the other behaviors, thus making the action one that can result in disqualification.

Just my opinion, of course.

The swearing/yelling that would accompany the throwing would be the foul.


I ask again, would you allow him to do this hole after hole, or fifteen times on one hole?



Sounds like they have putting issues... at what point do you restrict the velocity of a putt/throw?

Personally, I see a real difference in throwing a drive in anger (barely detectable) and throwing a putt in anger (fairly obvious in the instant example). If you throw a drive in anger and keep quiet, no one else will know that you are angry and couldn't possibly be offended. If you throw a putt in anger (with excessive force in the example) and it glances off the target, it's obvious that you are not trying to play golf and could be considered unsportsmanlike, rude, discourteous, whatever you want to call it.

While 804.05(1) may allow a player to throw a disc in play angrily, it does not allow you to be overtly rude to anyone present. I feel that throwing a 5-foot putt with excessive force in obvious anger is rude to the others present.

Aren't we going a bit far afield ?

Read the first 2 sections of the Courtesy rules (801.01.A & B)
The first describes what the throwing player and watchers should do, the second describes what non-throwing players should not be doing.

At no point does it say that you can not play angry as long as you are doing so with a sense of decorum (not disturbing others while doing it). You have to do something not required by the rules that disturbs someone else before you can be charged with a courtesy violation.

The DQ section of the rules (804.05.A) describes unsportsmanlike conduct that closely follows those described in 801.01.B. The problem is that 804.05.A specifically states that discs in play can not be items throw in anger.

This does not mean that a player can not throw a disc in anger, only that a disc thrown in anger can not be considered an item thrown in anger.

Sounds like they have putting issues... at what point do you restrict the velocity of a putt/throw?



At the point it becomes discourteous. :D

Seriously, it is not so much a "velocity of putt" issue to me as it is an intent issue. If this person is primarily concerned with putting hard to release anger and not concerned about holing out, then they have crossed the line. One time I can understand, more than once I feel they have become a discourteous whiner.

which brings us to one of the earlier points - how do you know what they are "concerned" with?

I don't concern myself with discerning how I discern their concerns.
I just conclude by their actions.

almost Lyle, but not quite. the rules SPECIFICALLY allow for disc to be thrown in anger. assuming its the throwers turn to throw. what if the angry man's next shot was a drive? i know for a fact that i have thrown one drive under the influence of intense, barely-controllable anger. it went real far and in the right direction, too. are you suggesting that i could/should have been stroked/warned? (that would have REALLY pizzed me off :) )

the only way out of the hole your side of the argument is in is to start talking about degrees of anger, position reltative to the pin, etc. you're gonna need a doctorate in pschyciatry to even get close, and i suspect that wont even come close.

give up. your argument is with the fact that the rules EXPLICITY allow it. its not a matter for interpretation.



Therein lies the difference for me Pat. In one case you are mad but you keep control of yourself, make your throw and move on. In the other the player is [I'm a potty-mouth!] off enough that he is out of control, slams his discs into the basket bouncing out from close range two times. For me there is a world of difference.

A player demonstrating similar behavior on a drive would approach the T in a visually out of control manner throw his disc wildly (perhaps into the ground) yell "Oh Great!" or some such and possibly take another throw. Obviously it is much easier to judge this in the case of a putt than a drive and of course when in doubt I would go with the player being in control and in compliance with courtesy rules.

We keep coming back to the idea that there is a specific exemption for throwing a disc in anger. Again, I do not believe this is the intent of the rule. If I had written the rule I might have written "throwing any disc in anger and in an uncontrolled manner is prohibited." I have posted this question to the RC and am curious to see how they will reply.

throwing any disc in anger and in an uncontrolled manner is prohibited."



"Was Billy angry or just frustrated when he tried to throw that crappy thumber over the tree?"

How do you define 'anger' and how do you define 'uncontrolled manner'?

exactly, greg. Lyle is going from the actual discussion - a disc thrown in anger - and talking about disc thrown wildly off course, second throws from the tee, verbal outbursts, and so on. none of which are even part of the original scenario.

lyle, if there is no second throw, if there is no verbal outburst, then i presume you are ok with the drive thrown in anger? no rule provides a penalty without something IN ADDITION to the angry throw.

How do you define 'anger' and how do you define 'uncontrolled manner'?



Using human judgement based on life experiences.

How do you define 'anger' and how do you define 'uncontrolled manner'?



Using human judgement based on life experiences.

well, that should make it crystal clear and leave no room for doubt, disagreement or interpretation! :D

exactly, greg. Lyle is going from the actual discussion - a disc thrown in anger - and talking about disc thrown wildly off course, second throws from the tee, verbal outbursts, and so on. none of which are even part of the original scenario.

lyle, if there is no second throw, if there is no verbal outburst, then i presume you are ok with the drive thrown in anger? no rule provides a penalty without something IN ADDITION to the angry throw.



You are correct Pat, I have moved away from the original scenario, but not to an accidentaly wildly thrown disc. The original scenario is encompassed by a rule, the courtesy violation rule; as you correctly pointed out, that rule has a line in it that seems to address the situation allowing a player to throw a disc in anger. Several posters have argued that makes this situation O.K.; that is, it's O.K. for a player to thow a disc in anger because it is in the rules. I'm saying a) I'm not sure that is what the rule is meant to say, and b) if it is I disagree with the rule.

Let's review, you have a player who threw his disc into the basket as hard as he could from close range (6 feet and then 2 feet) and bounced it out 2 times. Are you saying that you think this guy is in control? Are you saying that you don't think his anger is causing him to do something a little (or a lot) stupid? I'm saying that in a situation like this, it is clear that this guy is out of control. What if someone was behind the basket and his full throttle throw skipped through and wacked that person? Yes, I grant you, there are some players that are going to make out of control throws and get lucky, their disc will fly perfect for them (and to address your question: in my last post I stated clearly that in cases of doubt you have to go with the thrower being in control). It should also be noted that in fact this guy did get lucky, we've already had one case described, just like this one, where another player did get whacked.

In cases where it is clear that the player is playing out of control, that to me is a courtesy violation because the player is potentially endangering the players around him when he throws. In my opinion if the rules allow this then I think they are flawed. My question to you is are you saying you think that it is O.K. for that to occur; that a player throwing clearly out of control should be given a pass as long as it is his turn and he throws towards the basket?

BTW - Players screw up and make wild throws all the time and somehow I don't think that either you or Greg really think that I'm trying to compare an accidental wild throw with someone out of control, or that I would be willing to punish a player who isn't clearly acting in an uncontrolled fashion. Do you really think that a guy who throws full force into a basket from 6 and then 2 feet is playing in control and that this wouldn't be obvious even to the guys who said it wasn't a courtesy violation?

thinking that the described behaviour is not OK and asessing penalties are two different things. especially in the light of the fact that the rules clearly suggest that throwing discs in anger is not penalizable.

do i think its ok? nope.
do i think the rule actually intended to condone throwing 2' putts at warp speeds? nope.

do i choose to follow the rules rather than reword them and apply them to serve my own purposes? absolutely.

i didnt write the rules... i just try to follow them. its kinda like the fundamentalists. the bible is full of idiocy when taken literally... but "literal" is one valid interpretation when you are talking about the word of god. the rulebook is our bible, and i am a fundamentalist (on the golf course).

now, lets take this section... "saying that in a situation like this, it is clear that this guy is out of control. What if someone was behind the basket and his full throttle throw skipped through and wacked that person?"

no i am not saying he is in control. but please quote the rule where it states a player must be in control. further, who am i to say if he is or not? there's some wild-eyed folk out there that scare the bejesus out of most normal humans... but just because they deal with any given situation differently from you and i does not solidify the ground on which we walk when we begin to pass judgement on their mental state.

further, "what ifs" constitute new, seperate discussions. in the original post, the throws did not hit anyone else. they maybe or maybe not annoyed or distracted anyone else. but tie-dye shirts annoy and distract some people. the pasty legs of a 57 year old grandmaster WASP in springtime annoy and distract some people. where's the line?

in considering the original scenario, the letter of the rulebook, and that benefit of the doubt belongs to the player , there can be no penalty.

[well, that should make it crystal clear and leave no room for doubt, disagreement or interpretation! :D



Well, if you believe that, I own a bridge in Brooklyn I'd like to sell you. :D

Seriously though, doubts, disagreements, and different interpretations are handled through appeals to the TD. There is no rulebook in the world for any sport that purports to eliminate the possibility of different interpretations. I know that for some, having things written out crystal clear alleviates the stress of having to use the brain and think, but that's just not possible in all situations.

wonderful. so now we're gonna have someone who did not see or hear the situation make a ruling that will range from "nothing" to "DQ" based on first, second and third hand interpretations of someones mental state.

like i said, i just fail to see where any controversy could result from that! :D

Pat, your argument has at least one major hole that posters have already pointed out. You maintain that


the rules clearly suggest that throwing discs in anger is not penalizable.




It was pointed out that the "disc in anger" language is under the dq section, not the courtesy section. In other words, your "fundamentalist" reading doesn't support an argument that throwing a disc in anger cannot be a courtesy violation, only that it is not a dqable offense. I would also argue that fundamentalists cannot ever say "the rules suggest." It's heresy.

As I see it, there is only one coherent argument to say this cannot be a courtesy violation. That was Bruce's argument early on that said, it is not on the list, therefore it is not a violation. However, there may be coherent arguments that it should not be a courtesy violation.

There is a leg to stand on if the player went full force when another player was behind or close to the basket, and that is the first part of 801.01.A


A. Players should not throw until they are certain that the thrown disc will not distract another player or potentially injure anyone present...



It is certainly reasonable to presume that a shot will miss it's intended target even at close range, and the projected path has to be considered before a shot can be safely taken in accordance with the rules. If someone had been standing on the other side of the basket in the original scenario I would have answered differently.

The problem with the argument you are making is that it can be applied to many things in disc golf. Did that guy really intend to pencil whip? etc. I will grant you it might be that there will never be a clear enough case to call a rules violation on someone throwing in anger but I tend to disagree. Even in the case that you are correct, does this mean we should do nothing? Not even a verbal warning?

I personally think that there are cases where it is very clear. For you I seem to recall a case where the driver was going way to fast and then pointed his finger at you like it was a gun when he felt you got in his way. Obviously the guy didn't really mean to hurt you, and yet....

Some points to think about:

Would you also say that if a player appears to throw in anger and wacks another player that since we can't be sure we should give it a pass?

Even more globally, are we to assume that in all cases human judgement is such that we can never determine fault? In that case there are other rules violations that we will be unable to call in disc golf without cameras. "I'm darned sure I hit my foot placement behind my mini." "I'm darned sure you didn't."

It seems that there should be some cases where there is no doubt and those should be called. In every other case perhaps the rules should allow for a warning if there is a question?

It is an unfortunate reality that sometimes we have to make calls based on human judgement. It is also certain that in some cases there will be errors. The question is how to be effective without unduly punishing the innocent. I have to admit that on a global scale we have a current tendancy, in the country as a whole, to err on the side of punishment. That doesn't mean that in disc golf we should err on the side of allowing selfish players to abuse other players.

none of which has anything to do with the point in question.

and for the record, it was a real gun, not his finger. had it been his finger, i would have surely returned his fire, although with a different digit.

"I would also argue that fundamentalists cannot ever say "the rules suggest." It's heresy. "

beautiful! very good one :)

i like your reasoning... stop making so much sense! you're ruiing my message board user experience!

I believe it is a courtesy violation and here is my reasoning:

801.01 Courtesy
A. Players should not throw until they are certain that the thrown disc will not distract another player or potentially injure anyone present.

When you throw a disc at warp speed, 6 feet from the basket you cannot assure it will not go through the chains and strike someone or that it will not deflect from the target and strike someone. You therefore fail in your certainity that it will not distract or hit someone. This would then be a courtesy violation. Does this mean that if you have an errant throw during the normal course of playing and it hits someone you could also receive a courtesy violation? Possibly, but it would certainly be more likely a TD would overlook it if it did not have the appearance of anger.

B. Players should take care not to produce any distracting noises or any potential visual distractions for other players who are throwing.

This includes those players not in your group. If you are hurling your disc at the basket and someone from another group is driving or putting then a player from another group could call you.

801.01A: you can be certain but later proved wrong. doesnt change the fact thtat you were certain. just makes you wrong. just like being certain that your drive owuldnt hurt anyone... but then griplocking it and throwing 135 degrees off your intended line. yes it happens. i've played with Wimm.

801.01B... this is one of those completely unenforceable rules. or should i say one of those rules that could be applied almost anytime anywhere. the group on the next fairway that stopped200 feet away thought they were removing a distraction by not walking across my field of view. however their presence created a distraction where one did not exist before. see what i mean? no one, or everyone, wins with this rule.

How many times have you turned when you heard loud chains. Almost every time. I'm not talking about a hard putt, that is way different than someone throwing full force from a few feet. Now once in a while you will hear loud chains, but when someone does it 2 or 3 times in a row, and it makes you stop and look, that is a distraction. The rule does state any distraction. Also when someone is throwing at top speed point blank, it's not hard to see that that person is angry, and that as well is a distraction. Now I'm sure that the guy was well liked and nobody wanted to call him for a violation. That's cool. I've overlooked such violations, and had my own violations overlooked, many times, but if 1 person is distracted, then he should be warned, and take it like a man, because he does know he was wrong in th e1st place.

Now for another "anger" courtesy question that I'm sure has been brought up before. I was in a 4-some during a sanc. event, and a guy in my group was mad after going OB, so when he finished putting, he picked up his mini, and in a putting stance, putted it angrly into the basket. He was the last one to putt, and I was the only one in the group to witness it. I didn't call him, but did make a comment, which he angrily replied, it's just a courtesy violation not a stroke. Not knowing if was either I just shut up and pulled out the rule book. I couldn't find anything either way. He didn't distract anyone, so it really wasn't a courtesy, and the rules state that a throw is with a reg. disc, not a mini. Then I found that any throw after the start of the round should be counted. Anybody have any input on this.

B. Players should take care not to produce any distracting noises or any potential visual distractions for other players who are throwing.



If you want to get anal about this rule, then everyone should be stroked for cheering when someone gets an ace.

The word 'potential' in both of the rules you quoted makes them pretty much unenforcable in my book. Any thrown disc can potentially injure someone. Any movement whatsoever is a potential visual distraction (unless you were wearing really good camouflage I guess). How far do you want to go?

Even standing perfectly still in an in appropriate spot can be a distraction. Looking at someone while they putt, or looking away can be distracting. There has to be some point where a reasonable attempt to avoid creating a distraction outweighs the amount of distraction created.

If you want to get anal about this rule, then everyone should be stroked for cheering when someone gets an ace.

bingo, we have a winner! but that raises the question... lets say i get a courtesy warning on the first hole then on the ninth hole get an ace. but i get called for a courtesy violation for my out-of-control celebration. its my second courtesy violation so thats a penalty stroke period. do i still collect the ace pot even though i carded a 2 on the hole? (that is, if the TD doesnt DQ me)

Wow this thing is really bothering some people. If someone called a C.V. on me for putting in anger I would simply say, "I didn't putt hard enough, the putt didn't go in, throwing harder should work." It's called brute force, forcing the putt to go in out of frustration. Putting out of anger is better then throwing one's bag or actually breaking stuff.

Of course this only applies if you are within 10m, other than that you can throw the disk as hard as you want. Everything within 10m (32ft, 10in) is a putt. Don't throw in anger if you are 10m from the basket.

Somebody kick this horse again.

KICK
KICK

Come on horsey, move, please move.

KICK KICK

Don't kick out of anger, we will start this all over again.

No, your ace still counts as an ace.

Also, what is the point in throwing out extreme examples in order to undermine the rule. The example of shouting at an ace, congratulating someone on a shot within the earshot of another group, or having the sun reflect off your shiny head may be distracting, but no reasonable person would ever issue a warning for them. However, many reasonable people view temper tantrums as distractions, regardless of how they are played out.

I was thinking over Russ' example and it brought up an interesting aside to me. First off, it can obviously be overlooked, probably argued as a practice throw (the glossary doesn't clearly define a disc), or viewed as a courtesy violation by liberal interpreters of the rule. However, I suspect some will argue that "well, he did it after the hole, noone was throwing, and since the rule says that you must distract someone while throwing, it cannot be a courtesy violation."

This argument got me thinking further. Do y'all maintain that I can kick the "potty mouth" outta of my bag for a continuous stretch and not receive a courtesy warning, as long as I do it while noone is throwing?

Some of you guys are completely missing the point. If a player is throwing wildly into the basket they are not taking the proper care to ensure they are throwing in a safe manner and this is a courtesy violation. Several people have even given personal testimonies of players being struck or nearly hit, which is justification for the statement that I made.

801.01 A. Players should not throw until they are certain that the thrown disc will not distract another player or potentially injure anyone present.

Argue all you like about errant throws, not thrown in anger. I believe that everyone of us realize there is a difference. That difference being that a power drive putt, does not show a proper amount of care and concern.

As for someone from another group calling the temper tantrum, I am willing to bet that 99 times out of a 100 someone unloads into the basket another group will not be distracted or if they are distracted they will not say or do anything. I was simply stating that it was another possible source of calling a courtesy violation. I further tried to clarify my statement by saying that if someone hit chains and distracted a player, that while a courtesy violation could be called, no TD would consider it valid if it was a competitively thrown disc and not one thrown in anger. However, it is an avenue that could be used to discourage such activities.

If anyone of us was driving and a player in another group is power drive putting in anger at the same time, there is no doubt it is a distraction. However, distractions are subjective. I may find your temper tantrum amusing.

i may find your amusement distracting.

lol


i may find your amusement distracting.

I find this conversation distracting.

If you take the time to warn the other players on your card to stay out of the way because you are going to putt with "extreme prejudice", does this cover taking precautions to prevent injury ? :cool::D

The whole argument is moot, because if the guy is putting from 2 feet that means everybody else has holed out and can walk to the next tee pad, leaving the guy to hole out and bounce out all he wants. Why is Terry standing there with a radar gun on the guy measuring how hard he's throwing into the chains? Let him slam all he wants. It's legal to putt any speed you want. And let's not be rules zealots it's LAME.

almost right, there anne... the TRUE rules zealot would know that a player can blast away at whatever speed he wishes, and would not worry about calling a foul.

Annie,

I don't know you so please forgive me if I am wrong, but I am assuming you have never played with someone that has lost their temper during a round. I don't mean angry about a bad throw, I mean so mad they are alamming their bag to the ground, and slamming their putter into the basket at mach 1 speed. They are so mad that you fear physical violance may occur. I say that I don't think this has happened to you, because for the most part, women are more courteous than men. I know this is not always true, but as a general rule men are more likely to lose their temper and react badly.

I have never been threatend with violance, but I know someone who has and as a registered official, I believe part of my responsibility is to keep this from happening. The question was raised "What do I do when someone is starting to act out?"

If my kids were doing the things that some adults are saying is acceptable, I would pull them aside and talk to them. So if an adult believes that having a temper tantrum is acceptable, how do we stop this from occurring? I personally have never called anyone for having a childish fit, but unsportsmanlike conduct is a potentially DQable offense.

What would you do if someone was loosing their cool? Just blow it off? I think you would agree that it would depend on the circumstances.

The question was that if someone was driving their putts into the basket, what should occur. Most people have stated, and apparently you agree, that it should be ignored. I simply stated that throwing at drive speeds on your putts, could be considered a courtesy violation because you cannot be sure that it will not deflect and hit someone. I also said that if you were called for a courtesy violation you could always take it to the TD for a judgement call.

I have a 13 year old son, I would have learn that this type of conduct is not acceptable. Others may differ, but I have cited one rule that could be used to restrict such activity. Now I would probably only use it if the disc almost or did hit someone. I think that if you are going to drive your putts that you will inflict your own penalty.

Now as to what you stated below, part of your responsibility is to watch the player to asure you can spot their disc if an errant throw occurs and assure no rules are broken. That is a rule, so everyone should not be walking away, they should be watching. Not meaning to sound like a rules zealot, that is one of your responsibilties.



The whole argument is moot, because if the guy is putting from 2 feet that means everybody else has holed out and can walk to the next tee pad, leaving the guy to hole out and bounce out all he wants. Why is Terry standing there with a radar gun on the guy measuring how hard he's throwing into the chains? Let him slam all he wants. It's legal to putt any speed you want. And let's not be rules zealots it's LAME.

sandalman is right, a true rules natzi would know that slamming putts is legal, unless he cursed or yelled, etc.

Here is what I did yesterday. A 500 foot tight hole in the deep woods, the type of hole where people often get 7 or 8. I was hitting trees all the way, getting more and more angry. Finally I was 40 feet from the pin shooting for a 7, so angry from hitting all the trees, I threw as hard as I could at the pin, DRIVE SPEED. That's probably why I made the 40 footer, I just slammed it in.

Anger is good.

Jerry, I think you have seen enough of Morgan's posts to have an idea who he is.

And like Pat has said before, driving your putt into the basket is not enough to earn a penalty. It is enough to earn the interest of everyone on the card and any other outburst that is not related to throwing a disc in play does warrant a courtesy violation and possible DQ when brought to the TDs attention. If the player can limit it to throwing at the basket when no one else is is immediate danger of being hit it should be dismissed. Most people that are "blowing up" can not limit their actions to just slamming their putter into the basket.

Gary,

You know that I am a reasonable guy, and I typically ignore outbursts, but the question that I have not seen answered is what do you do if it hits someone? It appears that many people believe you can drive your putt into the basket and that is acceptable until it hits someone. How can it be okay and then suddenly it is not? I am not trying to argue, I really am trying to suggest a solution. I have been upset and thrown my putt, with force, into a basket. I can't remember ever having done that and it then spit out, but it could have happened. I never remember doing iit more than once though. Is it okay to do it once, unless it spits out, and then it is not? I will admit, I doubt that I will ever call someone for this behavior, but the question still remains, if the rebound hits or nearly hits someone what do you do then, and why is that suddenly different? If it occurs on several holes is it okay? :confused:


Jerry, I think you have seen enough of Morgan's posts to have an idea who he is.

And like Pat has said before, driving your putt into the basket is not enough to earn a penalty. It is enough to earn the interest of everyone on the card and any other outburst that is not related to throwing a disc in play does warrant a courtesy violation and possible DQ when brought to the TDs attention. If the player can limit it to throwing at the basket when no one else is is immediate danger of being hit it should be dismissed. Most people that are "blowing up" can not limit their actions to just slamming their putter into the basket.

Annie,

I am asking seriously, if you had missed and hit someone on the next hole would the same drive/putt been acceptable? Besides the question was not doing this from fourty feet from the basket, it was 6 feet and it was done several times.

To coin your phrase and add to it...

Anger is good, acting out on it repeatedly is not.


sandalman is right, a true rules natzi would know that slamming putts is legal, unless he cursed or yelled, etc.

Here is what I did yesterday. A 500 foot tight hole in the deep woods, the type of hole where people often get 7 or 8. I was hitting trees all the way, getting more and more angry. Finally I was 40 feet from the pin shooting for a 7, so angry from hitting all the trees, I threw as hard as I could at the pin, DRIVE SPEED. That's probably why I made the 40 footer, I just slammed it in.

Anger is good.

Jerry, the tone of your posts indicates you are getting angry. be careful no words fly loose from the screen and hit someone, or i'm afraid we'll have to take it to the TD. :D

but seriously... if a close-in, full-force throw goes wild and does hit someone, then the thrower should have some answering to do. if it goes in then the benefit of the doubt belongs to the player.

that being said, if someone was going off repeatedly, i might say something to them, asking them to calm down.. maybe telling them they were bringing everybody down. if the guy was truly angry and on the edge, there is a reasonable chance that the reply would include a bad word... and then i would have the right to have out a courtesy violation citation.

Pat,

Regardless of what people may think of my posts, I would do the same things you listed below. But I am still curious about what the the player would have to answer to if he had hit someone. Obviously, the player was out of control if they hit someone, but do you think we should let it get to that point? You are right is stating that there is no test to determine if a player is nearing loss of control and if it will continue to escalate.

I will never forget playing with Randy Wimm one time when he starting drive putting from 6 ft. I stood there and watched him until he finished the hole, with 3 strokes more than he should have gotten. I asked him is he was sure that he was done and we both chuckled about it. When the scores were taken he said that he could not believe we had not given him a courtesy violation. He was clearly out of control. My response was that he did a good enough job of it himself. He then calmed down for the rest of the round.

I guess that since I have two Juniors playing that I would like to see players act with a bit more control. I have talked to my oldest boy and at 1/2 the age and weight of recreational players he is intimidated by the behaviour that has been discussed. I would prefer that he not have to go through it or have to experiance it. But I would really prefer he not START DOING IT.


Jerry, the tone of your posts indicates you are getting angry. be careful no words fly loose from the screen and hit someone, or i'm afraid we'll have to take it to the TD. :D

but seriously... if a close-in, full-force throw goes wild and does hit someone, then the thrower should have some answering to do. if it goes in then the benefit of the doubt belongs to the player.

that being said, if someone was going off repeatedly, i might say something to them, asking them to calm down.. maybe telling them they were bringing everybody down. if the guy was truly angry and on the edge, there is a reasonable chance that the reply would include a bad word... and then i would have the right to have out a courtesy violation citation.

Jerry, don't let Pat and Gary's arguments cloud your common sense. If some baby is doing this back and forth, it can and should be a courtesy violation. Not because it is dangerous; not because they are damaging equipment; but simply because it is discourteous.

James, I agree that driving at the basket from short range is stupid and potentially dangerous, but still contend that driving at the basket alone is not grounds for a violation. Loud or abusive language, throwing a mini, kicking the bag, putting out of turn, or disrespecting other players are grounds for a violation. A player that is losing control is almost guaranteed to display some other symptom. If the only thing that gives away his anger is the look on his face and choice of putting style, I would say that the player is still pretty much in control.

I have rarely seen a player do that. Especially when the rocket putt misses and he is faced with a longer comeback. How he handles the result of his first putt is more likely to be grounds for the violation than the putt itself.

In all probability the player that chooses to drive a putt at the basket will do something that is clearly a violation and not lead to an argument on the course about whether he is allowed by the rules to do what he did. If we can't clearly and directly point out a rule here that says you can't do that, what leads you to believe you will be able to do it on the course with a player that is already upset ? If you catch him doing something that the rules clearly state is not allowed, he (and the TD) will have no argument against the call.

Yeah, don't let their common sense cloud your argument. :D

dis�cour�te�ous (ds-k�rt-s)
adj.
Exhibiting no courtesy; rude

If someone refuses to say 'Good luck' before a round is it a courtesy violation?

If someone has not bathed for a couple of days before a round is it a courtesy violation?

If someone breaks wind during the round is it a courtesy violation?

If someone breaks out a bag of popcorn and doesn't offer to share it with the group is that a courtesy violation?

All of the above can be considered 'rude' behavior. By definition they would fit what James considers a courtesy violation, so by his logic they should be stroked. You could even go one step further and say that any time someone breaks wind during the round and isn't stroked the other members of the group should be penalized for not enforcing the rules.

The guy drilled a couple of putts into a basket. He didn't curse, kick, scream, whine, and as far as we know, didn't break wind.

No foul.

I don't know if Terry is still following this thread, but I'd be curious to know how the player acted after this happened. If I had to guess, I'd say he was perfectly fine. He got a chance to vent his frustrations (as we all, as humans, need to do at times) in a perfectly legal manner and, with his head cleared, probably went on to play without incident. Just my guess.

If someone has not bathed for a couple of days before a round is it a courtesy violation?



Yup. Second hand funk should be treated like second hand smoke.

E. Courtesy dictates that players who smoke should not allow their smoke to disturb other players.

is commenting on every mistake made considered dicourteous?

I wouldn't even think about calling a courtesy violation on any of those things. I don't know if you have had to endure rounds with people that are whiny babies. They're having a bad day and by god, they make sure you are going to know about it. Well, I find that behaviour discourteous. I'm not ashamed about it either. I also don't think my perception is that unusual.

Anyways, I said a long time ago, that I can always accept minor tantrums. I agree that that is simply human, even though it is still undesirable. However, repetition of this is selfish and discouteous. Hardly analogous to sharing popcorn or saying hello.

No, but continuing to comment on every bad shot after someone has asked you to stop is discourteous.

had to do that a week or two ago, I resisted to comment, but not saying anything just fueled the fire. After I asked to be left alone and what not, I got an apology.. then felt pretty silly but was glad it was not on my shoulders any more, then continued my bogey fest

I actually feel as if I've become dumber by reading this entire thread.

you have

Hey, most of these rule threads are simply products of people with some free time that like to argue. I'm guilty at least. I just can't fathom Pat, Gary and Dan's lame arguments and am compelled to respond. ;)

Anyways, I find it takes less time to ignore a thread than to comment about it.

but not as dumb as those of us who have written most of it :)

I am amazed at the great lengths so many of you seem to be willing to go in order to defend or protect bad behaviour. Temper tantrums are not socially acceptable anywhere. I realize they happen - we are all human - but they should be penalized if they get out of hand. Whether they are out of hand or not is a subjective question and a personal decision.

We should all use common sense in order to determine if a courtesy violation has occurred. You won't find all the answers in the rule book.

I wouldn't even think about calling a courtesy violation on any of those things. I don't know if you have had to endure rounds with people that are whiny babies. They're having a bad day and by god, they make sure you are going to know about it. Well, I find that behaviour discourteous. I'm not ashamed about it either. I also don't think my perception is that unusual.

Anyways, I said a long time ago, that I can always accept minor tantrums. I agree that that is simply human, even though it is still undesirable. However, repetition of this is selfish and discouteous. Hardly analogous to sharing popcorn or saying hello.

yeah, forget the popcorn thing. thats just tkaing us into the Realm of Silly.

lets say i am playing real mediocre golf. not getting any breaks, and maybe taking an extra bogey or two. ie, its not going so good. pressure is starting to build inside, but i am keeping to myself and keeping it in.

finally on about the 14th hole i miss a 12 footer. without swearing, yelling or throwing metal minis, i walk up to my putter, pull another from my bag and blast it at the chains. it bounces out. i repeat the exercise and finally get it to stick.

now, i would admit that i am totally pizzed off. i admit that i vented, even visibly. i admit that my actions were stupid (especially cuz they cost two more stroke in an already crappy round).

but was what i did deserving of a courtesy warning?

please note that in my mind anyway this is a very different situation from someone who whines and moans with every missed putts, frequently utters oaths and profanities after shots that are sub-standard, and all the other nonsense that those type players do. those guys should be stroked... and can be! without stroking them for exceeding the putter speed limit.

I'm with James. I am compelled to campaign against inappropriate behaviour and the defense of it.

Temper tantrums are not socially acceptable anywhere.

they are at WalMart. at least the texas ones.

Anyways, I find it takes less time to ignore a thread than to comment about it.

And what fun would that be. I get bored as well.

Why is it that I am labeled as in defense of poor behavior ?

The original question listed no poor behavior other than a faster than necessary putt. I am very much against poor behavior, but very much a proponent of picking your battles wisely. By all means give a person with a behavior problem a penalty, but do it for something that is easily defensable. Something cut and dry, no question whatsoever, easy to point out in the rule book, poor behavior. Do not waste your time and energy trying to give a person a penalty when they could very well win the argument when it is taken to the TD.

By all means give a person with a behavior problem a penalty, but do it for something that is easily defensable. Something cut and dry, no question whatsoever, easy to point out in the rule book, poor behavior. Do not waste your time and energy trying to give a person a penalty when they could very well win the argument when it is taken to the TD.



I think that is the heart of where we differ. You do not want to apply the penalty until it is crystal clear. I see enough freedom in the rule to act now.

My biggest problem with y'alls reasoning is that y'all would apparently let this guy do it again and again. Right? I mean if each outburst is legal, then I assume a series of them is also legal (as long as he didn't cuss of course). Well, that is clearly unacceptable behaviour and I am not going to tolerate it. I find some rule to use and I go. This rule works for me.

So you would have given a warning on what grounds. What was discourtious about a disc in play thrown in anger. What rule can you site that allows you to give a warning?

This has been covered, but instead of being discourteous and flippantly saying "go back through the pages", the grounds were that the display of anger was offensive. It has also been stated that what is offensive to one may not be to another.

If you don't think that a display of anger in a golf tournament is offensive, then fine, live that way. That's your perogative and I respect that. But that's not my scene.

And I think you meant "cite". Site is a place.

This has been covered, but instead of being discourteous and flippantly saying "go back through the pages", the grounds were that the display of anger was offensive. It has also been stated that what is offensive to one may not be to another.

If you don't think that a display of anger in a golf tournament is offensive, then fine, live that way. That's your perogative and I respect that. But that's not my scene.

And I think you meant "cite". Site is a place.



Well, since the spelling police are here, it's prerogative , not perogative . :D

Terry didn't state what his grounds were in his original post. Some thought it could fall under 'abuse of course equipment', others just under the way-too-vague-and-open-to-abuse-to-be-enforcable (IMO) 'courtesy violation' rule.

Temper tantrums are not socially acceptable anywhere.

they are at WalMart. at least the texas ones.



Interesting. But then Texas was settled by rugged frontiersmen and was once an autonomous country. The original 13 colonies were settled by English gentlemen who wore the modern equivalent of leotards and barely survived because they chose a malaria-infested swamp (Jamestown) as their site for a colony. So I can see why temper tantrums would be acceptable in a Texas Wal-Mart.

Well, since the spelling police are here, it's prerogative , not perogative . :D



Thank you Sir. Always good to learn something. I stand corrected. :)

I HATE spelling police. It was a mistake live with it. I think it is a bogus call. I hope to never play with anal retentive types who try to manipulate the wording of the rules to thier interpretation of the way things should be.
Sorta like the cen[/B]sorship thing we have going on.

The wording of throwing a disc in anger makes it clearly legal. And if you have never done it it is actually fun.

I HATE spelling police. It was a mistake live with it. I think it is a bogus call. I hope to never play with anal retentive types who try to manipulate the wording of the rules to thier interpretation of the way things should be.
Sorta like the cen[/B]sorship thing we have going on.




This is why we need the censors. Everyone has been civil in this discussion up to this point. I apologize for offending you to the point where you felt you had to bash me. This is my que to leave.

Hope you have a nice Memorial Day weekend.

The wording of throwing a disc in anger makes it clearly legal. And if you have never done it it is actually fun.



Clearly not on an offense that can get you disqualified. But no matter how many times Sandalman says it's so, it is not in the courtesy section, only here.

804.05 DISQUALIFICATION & SUSPENSION
A. A player may be disqualified by the director for meeting any of the necessary conditions of disqualification as set forth in the rules, or for any of the following:
(1) Unsportsmanlike conduct, such as; loud cursing, <font color="red">throwing things in anger (other than discs in play)</font>, or overt rudeness to anyone present.

The wording of throwing a disc in anger makes it clearly legal. And if you have never done it it is actually fun.



Clearly not on an offense that can get you disqualified. But no matter how many times Sandalman says it's so, it is not in the courtesy section, only here.

804.05 DISQUALIFICATION & SUSPENSION
A. A player may be disqualified by the director for meeting any of the necessary conditions of disqualification as set forth in the rules, or for any of the following:
(1) Unsportsmanlike conduct, such as; loud cursing, <font color="red">throwing things in anger (other than discs in play)</font>, or overt rudeness to anyone present.




ok, lets apply Logic 101. throwing discs in anger is specifically exempted in the DQ section. the DQ section begins be referring to all other rules that could result in someone being DQ'd, then adds on to that list with the conjunction "OR"

the "OR" implies that the specific offenses that follow are NOT mentioned in the previous rules. that lack of mention means that they are NOT warning-able or DQ-able offenses.

that the RC saw fit to include the throwing of a disc in anger as a specific and explicit exemption to that which is DQ'able means that it is not penalizable! remember, all offenses that could garner a courtesy warning ARE DQable offenses.

do i agree with this ? no!! do i think throwing a disc in anger is very often discourteous? yes!!! but i also believe that the rules specifically exempt from penalty the narrow act of throwing a disc in play in anger! like it or not, thats what the rules say.

I HATE spelling police. It was a mistake live with it. I think it is a bogus call. I hope to never play with anal retentive types who try to manipulate the wording of the rules to thier interpretation of the way things should be.
Sorta like the cen[/B]sorship thing we have going on.




This is why we need the censors. Everyone has been civil in this discussion up to this point. I apologize for offending you to the point where you felt you had to bash me. This is my que to leave.

Hope you have a nice Memorial Day weekend.



Sorry I hurt your feelings. Baby.

Baby???

Pat, once again, you seem to drift in and out of your fundamentalist thinking. You simply infer that because a TD can't dq someone for throwing a disc in anger, a player therefore can't issue a courtesy warning for it.

ok, lets apply Logic 101. throwing discs in anger is specifically exempted in the DQ section. the DQ section begins be referring to all other rules that could result in someone being DQ'd, then adds on to that list with the conjunction "OR"

the "OR" implies that the specific offenses that follow are NOT mentioned in the previous rules. that lack of mention means that they are NOT warning-able or DQ-able offenses.




If this were true, then cursing and throwing bags wouldn't be referenced in the courtesy section since they are in the DQ section.


that the RC saw fit to include the throwing of a disc in anger as a specific and explicit exemption to that which is DQ'able means that it is not penalizable! remember, all offenses that could garner a courtesy warning ARE DQable offenses.



Why would you think that all courtesy violations are grounds for disqualification? Littering is a courtesy violation but is not a DQable offense unless done repeatedly. However you only have to curse loudly, throw something in anger, destroy something, or cheat once to be eligible for a DQ. The TD can do it without anyone having to call a courtesy violation.

The DQ section defines the most serious offenses. Throwing a disc in anger just happens to be an exception to this.


do i agree with this ? no!! do i think throwing a disc in anger is very often discourteous? yes!!! but i also believe that the rules specifically exempt from penalty the narrow act of throwing a disc in play in anger! like it or not, thats what the rules say.



Finally, agreement. :) It is very discourteous. Since it is, logic would imply that it could be called a courtesy violation.

I would never tell anyone to make this call without being witness to the incident. It's a judgment call but being discourteous warrants a courtesy violation. That is why the RC put the rule in there.

The RC has replied:

1. A throw in anger that is directed towards the target is legal (Pat delivers a righteous whoop).

2. Caveat - any situation is open to rules calls and the TD or non-playing official would be able to make an appropriate ruling.

3. If a group mate felt a throw (situation) was discourteous they could certainly make that call. However, outlawing "throwing discs in anger during the normal course of the round" would result in penalties for nearly every player in existence (who me :D)."

The RC said they understood that this was a situation where one had to be there. My interpretation is - if it feels like a courtesy violation call it and let the TD make the decision. But remember, you are opening a can of worms�

I think the horse is dead now. I hope the horse is dead now!

What's for dinner?

"Why would you think that all courtesy violations are grounds for disqualification? Littering is a courtesy violation but is not a DQable offense unless done repeatedly. "

i think you already answered your own question. EVERY courtesy violation is a DQable offense. if done repeatedly.

as far as dinner goes, if all y'all have any crow left, i'll have some in the spirit of fellowship :)

otherwise i'll have a big juicy horse steak!

PS. WHOOP!

:D

I am the captain of the spelling police but I only correct the spelling of people who care enough about their spelling to appreciate it. Some people like knowledge, some actually want to spell correctly.

"Why would you think that all courtesy violations are grounds for disqualification? Littering is a courtesy violation but is not a DQable offense unless done repeatedly. "

i think you already answered your own question. EVERY courtesy violation is a DQable offense. if done repeatedly.

as far as dinner goes, if all y'all have any crow left, i'll have some in the spirit of fellowship :)

otherwise i'll have a big juicy horse steak!

PS. WHOOP!

:D



Since I've given up on the red meat, I'll have to go with the crow! Got any road kill! :D

Nail in the coffin. Could have saved much time if we read the rules Q&amp;A.



Rule Question: Throwing Styles: What's Legal?
Question: Are there any restrictions on how you throw the disc? For example, can you throw nothing but overhand shots?

Response: No, there are no restrictions on how you throw the disc. You may throw backhand, sidearm, overhand, thumber, or any other way that occurs to you. You can throw it with your foot if that works for you.

The definition of "Throw" in the glossary of the rules describes a throw as a "propulsion" of a disc that changes its position. There are many ways to propel a disc. As long as you use only your body and no artificial devices (see 802.04), you may throw the disc in any manner you like.

Yours Sincerely,
The PDGA Rules Committee

Dr. Rick Voakes
Harold Duvall
Joe Garcia
John Chapman
Conrad Damon
Carlton Howard



If I wanted to throw an overhand shot, hard, for my putt I could.

"There are many ways to propel a disc."
Hard with anger.

"As long as you use only your body and no artificial devices (see 802.04), you may throw the disc in any manner you like."
Anger is not an artificial device.

Case rested, horse is dead.
:D

Case rested, horse is dead.



Just don't curse or otherwise make a fuss when you throw that disc in anger, or the dead horse will raise his head and unrest the case.

hehehehehehe, ants nests and sticks.

I wanted to throw ever disc, stool, umbrella, mini, cart, etc. that I owned into the pond at the Norman Pro/Am this past weekend, but I controlled myself.

I believe I can still call someone who throws in anger if their putt comes out of the basket at a high rate of speed.

No one has answered my question, why is it okay to throw in anger until it almost or does hit someone? What is the difference? I understand that the RC says you can throw in anger, but even the individuals that have argued against a courtesy violaiton have said that it is different if it hits someone.

801.01 A. Players should not throw until they are certain that the thrown disc will not distract another player or potentially injure anyone present. Players should watch the other members of their group throw in order to aid in locating errant throws and to ensure compliance with the rules.

As I read the above rule, I would have to agree that you can throw in anger, but I would qualify that to say that there is a difference in throwing hard in anger and throwing at drive force in anger. The diffeence being that throwing hard into the basket is constrained by the basket and chains and will rarely go more than 20 feet past the basket if missed or it spits. A drive force putt can blind or serious injure someone.


Nail in the coffin. Could have saved much time if we read the rules Q&A.



Rule Question: Throwing Styles: What's Legal?
Question: Are there any restrictions on how you throw the disc? For example, can you throw nothing but overhand shots?

Response: No, there are no restrictions on how you throw the disc. You may throw backhand, sidearm, overhand, thumber, or any other way that occurs to you. You can throw it with your foot if that works for you.

The definition of "Throw" in the glossary of the rules describes a throw as a "propulsion" of a disc that changes its position. There are many ways to propel a disc. As long as you use only your body and no artificial devices (see 802.04), you may throw the disc in any manner you like.

Yours Sincerely,
The PDGA Rules Committee

Dr. Rick Voakes
Harold Duvall
Joe Garcia
John Chapman
Conrad Damon
Carlton Howard



If I wanted to throw an overhand shot, hard, for my putt I could.

"There are many ways to propel a disc."
Hard with anger.

"As long as you use only your body and no artificial devices (see 802.04), you may throw the disc in any manner you like."
Anger is not an artificial device.

Case rested, horse is dead.
:D



there is a restriction on how you throw a disc. You must show a reasonable amount of concern and control. A thumber into the basket from six feet is potentially dangerous.

EVERY throw is potentially dangerous.

EVERY throw is potentially dangerous.



You are currect, but is it more or less controlled when drive force putted?

where does controlled come into it? other than in your own mind. besides, if players are sometimes expected to hit 4 foot windows 30 feet in front of them on their drive, then what is so problematic with a player expecting to hit a 2 foot window (the basket) that is only 6 feet in front of them?

come on bro, this horse's name is humpty dumpty. get over it! :D

I would still hold that not warning another player that is within a few feet or on the opposite side of the basket is not taking care to prevent possible injury.

If he said "You might want to stand back, I'm gonna slam this one" first, then it would be a different story.

There was nothing in the RC's response that killed this horse. The response was dripping with discretion and that is just as it should be.

There was nothing in the RC's response that killed this horse. The response was dripping with discretion and that is just as it should be.

"that is just as it should be" ??? you mean the RC should never answer anything clearly and narrowly? the RC response specifically stated the player could throw in any manner desired. where is the discretion in that?

The RC has replied:

1. A throw in anger that is directed towards the target is legal (Pat delivers a righteous whoop).

2. Caveat - any situation is open to rules calls and the TD or non-playing official would be able to make an appropriate ruling.

3. If a group mate felt a throw (situation) was discourteous they could certainly make that call. However, outlawing "throwing discs in anger during the normal course of the round" would result in penalties for nearly every player in existence (who me )."




The discretion? Well, first look at

2. Caveat - any situation is open to rules calls and the TD or non-playing official would be able to make an appropriate ruling.

This is pretty self-explanatory. The term "caveat" implies that there are outliers and the RC doesn't want to unnecessarily tie his hands.

Secondarily, I interpret

3. If a group mate felt a throw (situation) was discourteous they could certainly make that call. to mean "if you think it is discourteous, call it, just don't describe it as 'throwing a disc in anger' because that is allowed, be creative and describe the discourteous nature in other terms."

Which backs up what I have said all along. You can't call the player on the throw, but you can call any other discourteous behavior. This should include endangering other golfers if care was not taken to prevent potential injury (no actual injury is required) before making the throw.

There was nothing in the RC's response that killed this horse. The response was dripping with discretion and that is just as it should be.



To quote Nick Night "there ya go thinkin' again!"

Unfortunatly, I think the point is that in most cases, except for the most extreme, you just can't make a call unless someone gets hurt. Sad as that might be...

However, in that event, I think you are beyond a courtesy violation and into DQ/probation/suspention territory.

its gonna be far simpler and more probable to call the offender on a cursing violation, or something similar. i'm not defending throwing in anger. only defending the rules as they are currently worded

Pat,

Knowing you, you aren't defending the rules as they are written simply pointing out the reality of what they say. :D

Reality lies more in how you interpret the rules rather than the rules themselves. If you read them with an inflexible mind, our rules sometimes appear senseless, useless, and unfair. A little flexibility in interpretation makes our rules much more powerful and fair.

801.01 A. Players should not throw until they are certain that the thrown disc will not distract another player or potentially injure anyone present


where does controlled come into it? other than in your own mind. besides, if players are sometimes expected to hit 4 foot windows 30 feet in front of them on their drive, then what is so problematic with a player expecting to hit a 2 foot window (the basket) that is only 6 feet in front of them?

come on bro, this horse's name is humpty dumpty. get over it! :D



where does controlled not come into it?

Gary,

With the current line that I am argueing, I would say that you have a valid point and I agree. Would you agree then that you can issue a courtesy violation if they putt, at drive force speeds, if they do not issue the warning to players that are nearby?


I would still hold that not warning another player that is within a few feet or on the opposite side of the basket is not taking care to prevent possible injury.

If he said "You might want to stand back, I'm gonna slam this one" first, then it would be a different story.

I'm 100% in agreement with you and in the case of a putt this seems clear but my feeling is that until someone gets hurt the argument is that "I felt I needed that power to get my disc to stay in." The classic case is Matt Hall. Have you seen him putt? He putts like he drives... all the time. I've seen him bounce out three putts myself, through the chains, off the pole, and back out.

I don't think anyone is against "putting hard." In the long lost original post, Terry described someone who threw into the basket from a short distance. I got the impression that they stepped into a backhand. Then they did it again after it bounced out and then quietly dropped it in after it bounced out the second time. It was clearly a temper tantrum, not just "putting hard."

Like I said before, what if the guy just won't calm down and kept backhanding it into the basket and it kept spitting out? I've seen something akin to that in a ball golf tourney and the cameras quickly cut away, not wanting viewers to witness the tantrum. It was clear to the producer that the ball golfer was not interested in playing, but instead was focused on throwing a tantrum. As players, we should look for ways to clean it up, not play second-rate attorneys and deftly create interpretations on why the behaviour is acceptable.

I was pretty clear it was a driven disc. I prefer to thumb mine down through the chains into the bottom of the basket. It really can settle you down.

In all seriousness you probably had to be there to make the right call.

If you were standing directly behind the basket I can understand a courtesy violation. Cussing and what not yes a courtesy violation. Mumbleing<?> under ones breathe no.

And I even like the idea of talking the person down rather than giving them another reason to jump. Sometimes non calls are the right calls. Let the kids play ball.

I think a group should be able to talk someone out of isssuing a violation as it seems it did in this case. Terry called it but I'm guessing he revoked it after conversation.

Pre warnings are always cool. You know "hey you realize you keep falling on your putts chill before you get called".

hehehe... first its the "long lost" original post (hint: its post #1 on the thread :) ) then you jump directly to "what if"s in the second paragraph! its those "what if"s that obscure the original post in the first place!