I recently played a tournament where I saw one of the worst displays of sportamanship ever!!!!!! And I'm curious what the correct penalty would have been. I do not believe that the situation was handled correctly by the tournament director.


Heres the situation.

The guy in my group had a horrible hole. His 5th throw landed him 5 feet from the basket. Immediately after, he throws another disc in disgust that flys past the basket and rolls across a road 100 feet. He then proceeds to pick up his actual shot that is beside the basket and just walks to the next hole. Granted it was only a 5 foot putt, he still did not finish the hole. So we get to the noext hole and he gives himself a 7. 1 stroke penalty for the extra throw. But what about the fact that he did not complete the hole???? What would have been the correct call in this situation?? I sure hope I never play with that guy again.

He didn't finish the hole. It's either a DQ, or every throw he took after the original 5th throw would be practice shots. :D

He would get the penalty for the extra throw, plus the penalty for not holing out! I forget what that is, I think it is 4 strokes on top of what the score was when the disc was picked up.

He should also be warned for the courtesy violation of losing his temper with an outburst like that.

What an (other word for a mule), so you take a 6 on a hole. You move on and get over it. A 5ft putt is no big deal. I took a 4 on a wide open 180ft down hill hole with no OB or other hazards. I moved on and played the next hole, dissapointed, yes. But I did not lose control.

BTW, what division was this and how long had the guy been playing?

He would get the penalty for the extra throw, plus the penalty for not holing out! I forget what that is, I think it is 4 strokes on top of what the score was when the disc was picked up.

No. Intentionally failing to hole out constitutes withdrawal from competition (803.12.A(3)). He's done. DNF. End of story.

I figured it was a DQ.

Thanks, I was wrong.

Still, glad he would be DQ'ed, who would want to play a round with that guy?

Should have read:
No. Intentionally failing to hole out constitutes withdrawal from competition (803.12.A(3)). Subject to the TD's determination that he intentionally failed to hole out, he's done. DNF. Period. End of story.

Darn, you beat me to it! ;)

However, he should have been DQ'd.....


Should have read:
No. Intentionally failing to hole out constitutes withdrawal from competition (803.12.A(3)). Subject to the TD's determination that he intentionally failed to hole out, he's done. DNF. Period. End of story.

lets see if he was on sandalman's card that would be an ADV MASTER (baiter) :D Player

sandalBAGGER not sandalMAN.

retard!

I agree that this guy has a problem - I don't like it. But, in the interest of trying to salvage the guy (hoping he someday will be good ambassador for the sport instead of a walking destructive billboard), this is what I would do - now that I've had the chance to think about this.

When you proceeded to the next tee and scores were being announced - tell him this:

"You can't just pick up a gimmee in a tourney. You need to mark your lie and finish the hole. Failure to mark your lie properly is a warning."

G. A player shall receive a warning for the first violation of a marking rule if observed by two or more players of the group or an official. One penalty throw shall be assessed for each subsequent violation of any marking rule during the round if observed by two or more players of the group or an official.

"Since you probably didn't know that - go ahead, go back, mark the putt lie, and finish it out. Otherwise, we are going to have to deal with the "not finishing the hole" rule - and the rest of the boys and I don't want you to make us deal with that. Its a pretty important rule to finish the hole - If you don't, you have to be DQ'd."

And then ask for support on the ruling from your card-mates. Then, either he'll probably be apologetic and contrite - go back and finish out the hole with his head hanging - or he'll blow up, and refuse - and then his DQ is clearly his own choice.

Yes, you could DQ him on the spot - or you could also give him a warning or stroke for the 30 second rule - but I think it best to help him figure a legitimate way out of the mess he just got himself into. Suggest he can navigate his way out of it with just re-marking the lie, finishing it out and trying to salvage some dignity for the remaining holes. His choice.

I also think its within the spirit of the rules to apply the marking the lie warning if not too much time has elapsed. (For example - mentioning it 2 holes later is too late)

Player was a Pro Open player. from michigan. I could tell you all who...but Im not sure if I should. Anyway, can anything be done about such an instance after the event is over?????

When it is a Rec player or perhaps an Int player, it should be handled as GlenRobert described. However, anything over Rec really should be assumed they know the rules. He should have been disqualified. At this point, the best thing to do is to discuss it with the TD. If that does not answer the situation to your liking, then write a letter to PDGA for an official review of the action. Make sure that when you observe the action next time that you take the appropriate action at the time, speaking to the TD at least prior to the next round.

yes you are correct!! SANDALBAGGER!!

if I sang out of tune,
Would you stand up and walk out on me.
Lend me your ears and I'll sing you a song,
And I'll try not to sing out of key.
I get by with a little help from my friends,
I get high with a little help from my friends,
Going to try with a little help from my friends.
What do I do when my love is away.
(Does it worry you to be alone)
How do I feel by the end of the day
(Are you sad because you're on your own)
No I get by with a little help from my friends,
Do you need anybody,
I need somebody to love.
Could it be anybody
I want somebody to love.
Would you believe in a love at first sight,
Yes I'm certain that it happens all the time.
What do you see when you turn out the light,
I can't tell you, but I know it's mine.
Oh I get by with a little help from my friends,
Do you need anybody,
I just need somebody to love,
Could it be anybody,
I want somebody to love.
I get by with a little help from my friends,
Yes I get by with a little help from my friends,
With a little help from my friends.

Darn, you beat me to it! ;)

However, he should have been DQ'd.....


Should have read:
No. Intentionally failing to hole out constitutes withdrawal from competition (803.12.A(3)). Subject to the TD's determination that he intentionally failed to hole out, he's done. DNF. Period. End of story.







"Should have" (and probably would have had the TD been apprised of the situation), but need not necessarily have been:
803.12 Holing Out
A. A player who fails to play any hole or fails to hole out on any hole during the round may be disqualified, at the discretion of the director, using the following guidelines:

hence the qualification, "[s]ubject to the TD's determination that he intentionally failed to hole out." ;)

Yes, you could DQ him on the spot

No, you can't. You can report the failure to hole out to the TD as grounds for DQ, you can record the score for the hole as DNF, but only the TD can DQ a player.

I did report it to the TD immediately after the round. Nothing happened. I have seen toooo many things this year that are not "by the rules" And noone seems to care!!!!!!!!!! Something needs to be done about the consistency of PDGA events and following the rules. This is the 3rd out of 5 events that I have played this year that have been run inccorectly.

the worst was a few weeks back. We played 24 holes. So the par should have been 72. The lead card of pros turned their scores in of -4, -5 and -6. But they recorded there scores on the card as 48,49 and 50. Which I noticed between rounds. The cards were already marked on the board and groups were put together for the 2nd round. I asked the leaders how they shot so well. Amazed at the 48-50 scores. I then asked if they scored it as a par 72. They all gave me a blank look and they then proceeded to the girl who was doing the scores and asked for their card back. they changed their score and went about their business. I told the TD that this was not right. That the scores were already turned in and that they could not legally change their scores now. Nothing happened once again. Not very professional if you ask me.

I was involved in this situation in a play-off at the Masters Cup back in '99, I think it was. Even though the gal was further out and putting for a bogey and I was putting for par (and the win), she asked me, "Do I have to putt this out?" I replied, "Yes because if I miss my putt (which was a headbanger) then the play-off would continue." So my advice (for the future) is to say it immeditely when it happens.

Although in the ladies' groups we will sometimes pick up all the discs that are headbangers -- for faster play. :oBut the ladies' groups are more relaxed than the mens are. :D

T hat's frickin terrible man, something definatelt should have been done about both of these occurances. You may as well asked for your $ back after that crap.

Sandalbagger,

Was this for the World Championship? I have seen in a few occurances where the player wrote down the wrong score and was still standing by the scorers table, the scorekeeper asked the mathematically challenged golfer to add up the scores again. The player then got the total right and was not penalized. This even happend to me, I was so dissapointed I added myself worse then I actually shot and wrote down by 1 stroke. The score keeper asked me to total it again and I was not penalized.

If the tournament is not huge, as most are not. Usually that is given a breather and stretched a bit. In the end it would not have affected my placement at all, just overall score. I would hope people on the lead card would be more careful and do their math correctly.

RULES ARE RULES, if you're not going to follow them, why have them??? Would you let the 2 meter rule slide if you were down by a stroke for the lead of a tourney? It shouldn't even come to that. A guy got stroked this past weekend for incorrectly adding his scorecard. I feel NO PITTY for an [inappropriate word] that doesnt check, double check and someone else check his/her score, there's no excuse.

I am not supporting or condemming the actions of lax TD's. I have had it played in my advantage and was very thankful. However, I would have been penalized for incorrectly adding my card and I would have accepted my error as my personal mistake.

I have also seen this done at larger A-tiers, the person whose score was off was still standing there and the score keeper asked them to double check the score. I have also seen a nice TD ask the player to check the score, the player checked the score but still did not see the error and the TD stroked them right there in front of them.

michelle - i'm not trying to pick a fight here, please believe me - how can you justify picking up drop-ins? it is just plain against the rules. there's just so many "what-ifs" that make an agreement to not follow the rules a huge no-no that i wont even start to list them. if the putt is so close, then how much time does it really take to finish the hole according to the rules?

michelle - i'm not trying to pick a fight here, please believe me - how can you justify picking up drop-ins? it is just plain against the rules. there's just so many "what-ifs" that make an agreement to not follow the rules a huge no-no that i wont even start to list them. if the putt is so close, then how much time does it really take to finish the hole according to the rules?



At Worlds a while back. A guy marked his disc under the basket with his mini, picked up his putter, and hit the basket with the disc he was standing up. The disc fell out of his hand and cost him a stroke.

There are no gimmies in disc golf.

Yes, I will be more carefull when totalling my scorecard from now on.

Quote-"Yes, I will be more carefull when totalling my scorecard from now on"
Smart move, you have no one to blame but yourself when turning in an incorrect card. TD's that are "laxed" should be "axed" if they don't go by the facts. :cool:

I am not supporting or condemming the actions of lax TD's. I have had it played in my advantage and was very thankful. However, I would have been penalized for incorrectly adding my card and I would have accepted my error as my personal mistake.



There are several well know instances in the PGA where players have voluntarily penalized themselves or even DQ'ed themselves for their own mistakes. That is real integrity. I am sure there have been similar examples in the PDGA, but I am not aware of them nor would have the finacial stakes been as high.

To turn the tide of rules enforcement getting more lax as time passes, people like you who do care, need to ask for the penalty voluntarily instead of accepting the TD's mercy thankfully. IMO, if you do that you will earn the right to be a 'hardliner' when calling out others to follow the rules.

PS: I realize that I might sound pretty self-righteous in my little sermon there. So, let me assure you that I do not have a long rich personal history of playing PDGA tournaments and therefore do not have a lot of history in heeding my own advice.

My brohter-in-law played a tournament in Tulsa recently and told me stories just like these. He talked about players not holeing out, alchohol during the round, groups from the same flight teeing-off from different spots, TD not doing anything about anything. WTF :confused:

I had hoped that it was kind of isolated, but judging by this thread, it happens a LOT more than I thought :( Hope I never get in that situation

well the TD has addressed my concerns today and I am somewhat satisfied with the results. Though I think the player involved should be suspended for at leat a month.

here is the TD's reply

I totally agree it is a bummer to have to deal with poor behavior on the course. Upon hearing your concern at the event, I reviewed the rule and levied an additional 2 stroke penalty as per 803.12.A.2 (below).

803.12 HOLING OUT

A. A player who fails to play any hole or fails to hole out on any hole during the round may be disqualified, at the discretion of the director, using the following guidelines:
(1) Holes missed due to late arrival may be scored and penalized according to section 804.02.
(2) Inadvertently failing to hole out (as determined by a majority of the group or an official) shall result in 2 penalty throws being added to the number of throws plus penalty throws already taken on the hole. The hole shall then be considered completed.
(3)Intentionally failing to hole out (emergency, injury, plane flight, etc.) constitutes withdrawal from competition. The player shall be withdrawn from competition and officially listed as "Did Not Finish" on the scorecard and in the event results.

My decision did not go against any rules, it was my discretion. At a C-Tier event with 36 people, my discretion is generally going to lean towards a lenient application of the rule if so offered. If you disagree, you certainly have the right to pursue this by filing a complaint with the PDGA Competition Director, John Chapman, who I've copied on this e-mail. He can fill you in on the appropriate process steps to do so. As I've been involved in handling complaints in the past, please be sure to inform him that you were the only member of the group who complained at the tournament and you did not represent yourself as speaking for the entire group when lodging the complaint.

I really do hope, however, that I've cleared up any confusion regarding the rules of the game and that we can put this behind us.

I like the idea of getting my money back from the 2 events that I have played that did not follow PDGA rules. In essence it isn't a PDGA event if it doesnt abide by the rules......heck I've been doing this 10 years and I have never seen people act so ridiculous. I think this is an issue that needs to be addressed by the PDGA....though im not sure how????

I have had to give myself a penalty stroke in a sanctioned tourney before, I called it on myself because rules are rules and I want to play fair. I actually picked up my disc. (after measuring and marking my CTP) so instead of a gimme 2, I took a circle 3. Not all people have the same integrity and need to be stroked by someone else, since they lack the morals to do it themselves.

I don't think that should have been a penalty unless you putted without marking the lie.

Either a warning under marking the lie (moving a disc prior to marking it) or more appropriately, no penalty under 803.06.B with the disc replaced where it was moved from.



803.02.A - After each throw, the thrown disc must be left where it came to rest until the lie is established by the placing of a marker.
803.02.G - A player shall receive a warning for the first violation of a marking rule if observed by two or more players of the group or an official.

803.06.B - If a disc at rest on the playing surface is moved, the disc shall be replaced as close as possible to its original location, as determined by a majority of the group or an official.

I didn't mark it with a marker,I used the wire with the flag to mark the front of my disc (for CTP), then picked up my shot. The I realized what an --- I was and had the group decide my original lie and properly marked and finished the hole.

michelle - i'm not trying to pick a fight here, please believe me - how can you justify picking up drop-ins? it is just plain against the rules. there's just so many "what-ifs" that make an agreement to not follow the rules a huge no-no that i wont even start to list them. if the putt is so close, then how much time does it really take to finish the hole according to the rules?



To save time. If you've ever played a tourney where the baskets are, say, up on a large hill for example. All four must climb the hill, take out the mini, place it, putt, get your stuff back together and go back down that hill. It's faster for one person to do it as opposed to all 4. It is faster for the furthest one away to make her putt and then pick up the other 3 headbangers. We first all agree that they are "pick ups." We do it because we usually have the grandmasters (or other groups) on our heels, throwing before we're done holing out, yelling at us to hurry up, etc. You have to remember that at pro tourneys, the guys are driving, putting, driving, putting; whereas the women are driving, upshotting, then putting. The womens groups usually take longer so we are just trying to keep the flow going so we don't hold up everyone and cause back ups.

However, we've never done it at a world championships, only at monthlies and smaller events. We've even had TD's ask us to play that way. We've also had one TD have women skip holes! There's all kinds of eventive ways TDs come up with to speed up play. Like I said before, the ladies groups are not nearly as anal as the guys' groups are. :D

thanks, michelle. i totally understand what you are doing, and agree its great for monthlies and locals. we do the same thing in our local weeklies. (although for the sake of routine, i generally prefer that people do not pick me up) while i understand the concept, there's no wayi can see it being applied legally in a sanctioned event. walking up a hill can be tough, true. but the sport needs more athleticism in it, not less.

That thing in Bolf where they conced their opponents' putts--is that match-play, only?

There are several well know instances in the PGA where players have voluntarily penalized themselves or even DQ'ed themselves for their own mistakes. That is real integrity. I am sure there have been similar examples in the PDGA, but I am not aware of them nor would have the finacial stakes been as high.

From the PDGA World Records Page:
Hoser Williams stroking himself late in the Worlds for not marking a lie under the basket and losing by one. Ouch!

Unfortunately, it's listed under "Dubious Deeds," and "Biggest Choke." :( Seems to me it should be listed under "Outstanding display of integrity" or "Exemplary Sportsmanship" instead.

thanks, michelle. i totally understand what you are doing, and agree its great for monthlies and locals. we do the same thing in our local weeklies. (although for the sake of routine, i generally prefer that people do not pick me up) while i understand the concept, there's no wayi can see it being applied legally in a sanctioned event. walking up a hill can be tough, true. but the sport needs more athleticism in it, not less.



It's not about athleticism at all - it's about saving time. While the furthest out is putting, the rest of the group, or a couple of members can move on to the next tee. Maybe if our guys were more patient and understanding, we wouldn't even have to do it. ;) But I'm glad you understand and agree!

conceding is only in match or skins play, yes

I was in a situation like that a couple of years ago at a state championship somewhere. The guy missed a 15 foot putt for par on a deuce hole, the last hole of the tournament. He picked up his disc and slapped the chains with it and it went into the schule. Then he did not want to putt from there. He wanted to card a four on the theory that he could have made the drop in and he really was not trying to throw the disc when it went in the schule. He was quite adamant that a four was the correct score and the rest of the foursome had walked off. I told him that if he did not putt out he might be dq'd and I'd be happy to write down both scores and ask the TD for a ruling. I told him that the difference did not matter to me since I had beat him by 8-10 strokes, depending, but it would not be fair to the guys on the other cards because it could be the thing deciding who gets last prizes.

My approach for virtually every rules dispute on my card is (a) look at the rules and see if there is something plain that solves it, [in this case the disc never came to rest in the basket and it was a throwing motion that put it in the schule...] and then (b) no matter what happens with (a) suggest to everyone that we write down both scores and ask the TD. For this I have developed a reputation for being a rules fascist.

I finally talked him into holing out. It was a long conversation. It was a lot like talking a guy off a ledge. We carded both scores. The guy then decided to dq himself for unsportmanlike conduct but I insisted that was not necessary. I brought the issue to the attention of the TD but did not argue for a particular outcome. The TD made the right call.

good call bruce!

i'm STILL waiting on Wimp to holeout on the second playoff hole for the 2002 Red Rock Show :D

That thing in Bolf where they conced their opponents' putts--is that match-play, only?

Yes. In stroke play, failure to hole out results in DQ.

Here's another but in this one you are the TD:

You are putting up scores and a pro says to you, "That score is wrong. He shot a 54." So you go find the scorecard and it says 53 but one score was changed from a 3 to a 2. The pro says that was the hole. "His drive was in the schule. He threw a great upshot and dropped in for par." It was their last hole. The guy with the changed score was the guy who carried the card in.

You try to round up the foursome but two shot poorly and split immediately. You ask the other guy on the card. He looks at the card for a moment and says, "He's right. I think I did get a 3 on that hole."

Sounds fishy, the 3>>2 part. If it was just an addition problem, it would be a 56. I don't know; I guess ask about the revision, see who's responsible, & why, for a start...

...the evidence is leaning toward an 804.05(3). :(

If is not the last round, you will see that player and all in his group again, get them together and get the truth...then the TD can decide whether or not cheating was involved and if a DQ is necessary for the cheater.
---My thoughts, I can't find a rulebook.

Good thought about the group possibly coming back. However, there's an online rulebook. :oLink @ top of this page. ;)

<font color="blue"> 804.03 SCORING
D. At the end of the round, each player shall sign his or her scorecard indicating that he or she attests to the accuracy of the score on each hole and the total score. If all the players of the group agree that a hole score was recorded in error, the score may be changed prior to the scorecard being turned in. </font>
...clearly, with the one Pro disputing the recorded score, that wasn't the case here.

Scoring corrections are allowed by rule before cards are turned in, and quite often by TDs after they are turned in for mathematical errors if the group/player is still nearby.

What is really being discussed is whether or not there is grounds for a DQ based on cheating. The TD has to decide if there is evidence that the score was put down incorrectly purposefully, and not a simple mistake. The point is the the score of 3 was first on the card, and then changed to a 2. If both players agree that a 3 was the correct score, where did the 2 come from ? Was the total score added correctly for the 3 or for the 2 ? It is not an easy question and a very uncomfortable position for most TDs to be in.

Right right; that's a heavy responsibility...sure hope I never see such a situation...isn't this called "pencil whipping"?

<font color="blue"> 804.03 SCORING
B. After each hole is completed, the scorekeeper shall call out each player's name. The called player shall answer with the score in a manner that is clear to all players of the group and the scorekeeper. The scorekeeper shall record that score and read it back, in a manner that is clear to all players of the group. </font>

...if that 'one Pro' didn't object at the time, but does currently, that would suggest a revision after the fact.

on the turning scorecards in wrong.

I stroke them every time. Even the women. At one tournament 2 years ago, the lead in the Rec (novice back then) turned in a score card after lunch. STROKE. Then he finished tied for 1st after the tournament, with a guy who turned in his score card with the wrong score and was STROKED for it.

I think it was the same year that I stroked the whole GrandMasters division for not turning there score cards in. The guy who was suppose to turn the cards in forgot and took them to lunch. It didn't effect anyone because they were all stroked.

You know those extra Rules books they send to TD's, If I stroke someone, I try to give them a rules book if i have one. This way they get something for being penalized.

As far as stroking one self.

At a tournament at Autobon in Garland a few years ago, nature called and I took too long in the rec center. I was comming out of the Rec center when the start horn blew. I got to the hole when the group was throwing there 2nd shots. They told me to throw my shot, but I instead took my 7 on that hole and finished the tournament. It took me out of the money (missed by 2 strokes if I remember correctly)

I also know that Barry Wayne Pearce not only stroked himself at Am worlds (when He got 2nd place) but he also turned himself in after the Big Show last year and got suspended for 3 months. (for turning in a score card with a 3 on a hole his group didn't play, the realized it the 2nd day but did each player thought the other guys told Brian about it, they all 4 got suspended for 3 months)

PG, were you commenting on Bruce's scenario? Because I think it's more serious than a score in error. :(

Let me paraphrase to see if I got this right.

Player A is keeping score when the hole in question is played.
Player A also carries the cards to the TD after the round.

Player B was on the same card, and noticed that the score on the board did not match his memory of the round.

When the score card in question was examined, one hole had been changed from a 3 to a 2. Presumably this happened at some point after Player B had double checked the scores of Player A and before the cards were turned in to the TD. It looks this way because Player B was aware of Player A's correct total score and noticed the score on the scoreboard was different.

Player A upon being questioned about the hole agreed that the correct score for the hole was a 3.

Does that sound about right ?

That's my read also, and like you pointed out, Player B knew Player A's correct score. That doesn't seem unreasonable. What we don't know for certain is: Was this the last round; are players C&D returning? Maybe they just 'split' in disgust to forget the first day [or went to practice somewhere].

It's good to do the right thing....regardless of division. There is absolutely NO valid excuse for doing this. On the cheating issue, I would DQ them, that is the highest degree of Unsportsman like Conduct that there is..(IMO)

Does the card show a change from a 3 to a 2? If it does, I think it was cheating and the TD MAY DQ the individual, he should be charged 2 stokes. In my opinion, cheating is a DQable offense in should be inacted, but since you could not get a majority of the group you do know the score was incorrect.

We also have to depend on the TD. He may know the individual and feel the individual would not cheat. There are times when we think one thing and do another.

804.03 F. (2) If it is determined that the total score was incorrectly recorded, either by an error on a hole score or by an error in totaling the hole scores, including omission of the total score, the director shall add two penalty throws to the correct total score.


Here's another but in this one you are the TD:

You are putting up scores and a pro says to you, "That score is wrong. He shot a 54." So you go find the scorecard and it says 53 but one score was changed from a 3 to a 2. The pro says that was the hole. "His drive was in the schule. He threw a great upshot and dropped in for par." It was their last hole. The guy with the changed score was the guy who carried the card in.

You try to round up the foursome but two shot poorly and split immediately. You ask the other guy on the card. He looks at the card for a moment and says, "He's right. I think I did get a 3 on that hole."

Has the cheating been proven? I'm still ruminating on situations just short of that...perhaps Player A honestly believed 53 was the correct score, and make a revision after the fact. But that's still not allowed, without consent of the entire group. Some questions need answering, verily.

If the player thought, he/she had a 2 and corrected it, then without talking to the rest of the group, it is still cheating. The question I still have, was it changed to a 2 from a 3 and WHO did it. If it was the player in question, then he was either pencil whipping the card which is cheating, or he changed it, beleiving it was incorrect and did not tell the group about it, which was cheating. Not showing the group the change was wrong.

804.03 D. ...If all the players of the group agree that a hole score was recorded in error, the score may be changed prior to the scorecard being turned in.

If it was changed by the player, before turing it in, without review of the group as a whole it was cheating. We can say that he didn't mean to cheat, he honestly thought it was the wrong score and corrected it, then I can see where it could be treated with more leniancy than pencil whipping. He would then be stroked 2 and the TD may drop it.


Has the cheating been proven? I'm still ruminating on situations just short of that...perhaps Player A honestly believed 53 was the correct score, and make a revision after the fact. But that's still not allowed, without consent of the entire group. Some questions need answering, verily.

From Bruce's above givens:


...So you go find the scorecard and it says 53 but one score was changed from a 3 to a 2.



...to determine by whom may not be possible, if A&B deny, and C&D don't return. It's possible one of them did the revision.

<font color="green">Alacrity: If it was changed by the player, before turning it in, without review of the group as a whole it was cheating.</font>

No matter his intentions? If this happened, rules were broken, but I still want to know, why the change; what was the intention?

<font color="green"> We can say that he didn't mean to cheat, he honestly thought it was the wrong score and corrected it, then I can see where it could be treated with more leniancy than pencil whipping. </font> Right, he was ignorant of the rule, or knew the drill, and thought perhaps he could get away unmentioned/unseen. That's different from "lead sledding"[�][ /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif], which is dishonesty. </font> I think however this guy's gotta say that, and not make an assumption. Not even if this person is well known by the Director.

...I don't even want to get into the penalty phase before we see who's going to sing, and which song. :o:

We can say that he didn't mean to cheat, he honestly thought it was the wrong score and corrected it, then I can see where it could be treated with more leniancy than pencil whipping.



From the original post
The pro says that was the hole. "His drive was in the schule. He threw a great upshot and dropped in for par." It was their last hole.



This doesn't absolutely prove anything, but putting down a 3 on the last hole after you finish the hole, and then having a 2 show up before the cards are turned in is pretty tough to defend.

Here's another but in this one you are the TD:

You are putting up scores and a pro says to you, "That score is wrong. He shot a 54." So you go find the scorecard and it says 53 but one score was changed from a 3 to a 2. The pro says that was the hole. "His drive was in the schule. He threw a great upshot and dropped in for par." It was their last hole. The guy with the changed score was the guy who carried the card in.

You try to round up the foursome but two shot poorly and split immediately. You ask the other guy on the card. He looks at the card for a moment and says, "He's right. I think I did get a 3 on that hole."



The TD in this case was able to call the other guy on the card on his cell phone and asked him what the score in question was. It was the last hole of the tournament so everyone remembered. The guy on the cell confirmed the score of a 3. The TD then asked the guy with the score in question and that is when he confirmed that he did indeed think he scored a 3 on that hole. The TD informed the player that he was going to get his correct score +2 so he wound up with a 56 in Bruce's example. If the player had insisted he shot a 2 on that hole the TD was prepared to DQ him for cheating. It is possible that he was not cheating. He had the card for the last hole. If he accidently wrote down a 2 and then changed it to a 3 (but kind of poorly) then when adding it up he saw his own correction as a 2 instead of a 3, then it is possible for the incorrect score to have happened accidently. Sometimes it is hard to tell which number was written first.

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