I have been asked By Reese to announce the installation of 18 baskets at Ideal Golf Ranch on their executive par 3 ball golf course. This will facilitate having ball golf and disc golf being played side by side in Ft Worth on any day of the week!

We will have a Grand Opening on Monday May 23. This will not be a competitive event, but there will be some prizes available. Greens fee's will be $6 walking or $22 for 2 players with a cart. There is limited availability on carts so first come first served for a cart. Come out on Monday night and check it out.

Might have to go check this out and see what it's all about. What area of Ft. Worth is this?

Nice job Reese...

This course is off of 20/820 and Business 287, just north of 20/820 on the east side. There is a huge golf ball on a tee in the driving range. Allot of disc golfers have been playing this course over the last year or so. It will be interesting to see how the disc golf course plays. I will try to make Monday night, but working way up here, it might be tough. One nice thing is that this is only 10 minutes from my house. :cool:

Fly 18 is growing with 4 new courses this year before july.My first this year was Chicago par 66 Edgebrook golf course.Next is Texas Fort worth Ideal golf ranch par 60 this course has some of the oldest oak trees in texas.And lots of them :D...Thanks to the help of Maceman, this course is reality ,I have been working on this course for over a year now. I fly out tommorow to Houston to move the baskets and tee pads up north.Design on thursday hard work starts on friday I sure could use some help call me if you can thanks Reese 714-235-0100 cell .I am looking forward to meeting all the Texas shooters....My next 2 courses are in Cali.both are 9 hole courses Siniloa Golf Course is in Semi Valley close to Sylmar and Oak grove off the 118 and medera.This course will have 9 baskets and dual fly pads on every hole par 27 for 9.The next course is in 29 Palms north of palm springs also home of the largest military base in the US 96 square miles.What do marines do when they are not fighting ?They play disc golf to hone there grenade throwing skills.The course is another 9 hole par 35 next to Joshua tree .The course is called the Road Runner golf course the closest basket is 140 miles away :oThis will be my 14 th course in 5 years full time.I will have 10 running with 162 baskets on golf courses it is not a concept anymore.Fly 18 building disc golfs premier courses one blister at a time.Game on ;)

I have been working on this course for over a year now. I fly out tommorow to Houston to move the baskets and tee pads up north.



Does this mean thet Houston Fly 18 will be gone???

If so, why was it pulled.

The Houston Fly 18 has been gone for a while. The 9 hole Par 3 Ball Golf Course was sold and from what I understand the new owners weren't interested in Disc Golf. The course was pretty nice but was never as popular as it seemed it could have been. The location was not that great for most Houston golfers. The course was fairly short, not what most people expected when they heard disc golf on a ball golf course. Also many of the "less skilled players" complained of the numerous water hazards, although without them I think the course would have been a bit on the easy side.

Houston does have a new "Fly 18" style course called Spring Valley near the Woodlands. It has 9 holes that play on 9 regulation ball golf holes and another 18 holes in the woods surrounding the course. It seems to be fairly popular at the moment but it's only been open a month or two.

Richard and there is no comparing the two as well. The spring valley course plays great on the finesse 18 and the power 9. The baskets are nice as well, and the CONCRETE tee boxes are the best I have seen

Matchu ask the owner of spring valley if the disc golf on the course was not brought to him by fly 18...The past owners met me at the PGA show in FLA.They passed away left it to the 3 family members one son and 2 daughters they decided not to go with disc golf because they were going to sell the course.When Mike bought the course he called me to do a trailer park 9 hole and the 9 hole on the course when he pulled out of the the trailer park deal I pulled out of the hole deal.I still had Classic 3 at that time so no need to compete aginst myself with my own money out of pocket.So every time you are out there playing and see a basket in the woods or on the course it started with a seed from fly 18.Growing the game of disc golf...........I will leave Houston for now but i leave you with spring valley and best of wishes.North to Fort Worth I will miss Toms boat house best oysters I have ever eaten. :p :oTexas is a big state I hope there is room for fly 18. :cool:

Reese,

You stated that YOU pulled out of the whole deal, yet you still want some credit or recognition. Mike O'Brien, owner of Spring Valley, and I worked for the same company for several years. I"ll have to claim that I planted that seed ten years ago, long before Fly 18 or the O'Briens had any courses.

Good luck with the Fort Worth course.

Things are looking good out there. You will need everything in your bag and you may need some things you don't have yet. This will be a great addition to the Tarrant County disc golf scene. Come out and check it out on Monday night. :)

Grand Opening tonight come on out. The only competitive aspect of tonight is a guaranteed $100 ace pot, $2 per head to get in on that. This is going to be a good time. Come on out.

What time can we start tonight?

Mace, what is the deal tonight at the Ranch???

I may be able to come out as long as it is cool I bring Raven.

Is there a dress code???

Do you want us to have a dress code????

What time are you going to be out there?

I re read the thread and don't know any of these answers.

how late is the course open???

Like I said, I want to come out today, and can after 3pm. But that is one long drive to play a round of golf.

My next 2 courses are in Cali.both are 9 hole courses Siniloa Golf Course is in Semi Valley close to Sylmar and Oak grove off the 118 and medera.This course will have 9 baskets and dual fly pads on every hole par 27 for 9.



<font color="red">SIMI VALLEY.....Madera Exit off of 118 approx 20 miles WEST of Sylmar </font> :D


The next course is in 29 Palms north of palm springs also home of the largest military base in the US 96 square miles.



<font color="red"> NOT </font>
It may be the Largest MARINE base, but not even close to the LARGEST BASE.

Fort Hood in Texas has that beat by a TON. It is the Largest Military Base in the WORLD.
Ft Irwin outside of Barstow home of the National Desert Warfare Training Center (N.T.C.)would also dwarf 29 Palms.

Regardless...Fly18 continues to <font color="green"> GROW </font> :cool:

Were you out there, kid?

I only got to play half the course. Started off with a nice birdie after joining Mace and Reese on hole 10. 'twas a good drive and a nice putt. :)

Course looks pretty nice. There are some nice woodsy holes and then there are some "Texas stereotype" long-n-open holes, so it's a good mix from what I saw. A lot more trees than Emerald, but a lot less OB too. (Mace won't believe that. :) )

I have to say that I actually now prefer the Dr. Fred baskets. There's just something about the all-white basket that looks good, and the deep tray is awesome. If you haven't seen these baslets, the chain holder is white, the basket is white, and the whole pole is white. It's so much easier to see from the tee that way, and the white looks clean. I don't understand why the other basket makers haven't started copying that yet.

The staff seems pretty cool, and that's the most important part. When the staff is cool, there's a good chance the local ball golfers will be also. And when they both are, it makes it fun.

I was there. I was in the group behind Mace. Fun course.

It is in and open, everyday! The course is great. Reese did a great job getting the most out of every hole with the design. We had 28 players last night. This is a great addition to the Western DFW Disc Golf Scene. We had a great time last night and now you can too. I hope that we get some good participation at the weekly events on Monday nights. Come to Ft Worth and check it out. :cool:

Rhett, you dog, I can't believe you got there after I did and I never saw you. When talking/meeting Reece, I found out you were there.

I got there about 6:20 and joined in 2 holes behind Mace on #7, then after 30 min and playing hole 9, I figured if I wanted to play the whole course, I would have to go back to hole #1.

I caught up with Mr. Cox's group on #11 and finished the round with them.

Other than playing #1 to the wrong basket, I played OK. Finish with about a 57-59. mostly I pared all the holes except the longer ones and I did make a few birdies. (14, 15, 16)

I did not keep track of my score. Hole 12 was my worst played hole out there. Did not set up my roller well and it landed in the oaks off the fairway. My second shot taco'd my CE JLS into a tree 10ft in front of me. I finished with a 5. my next worse hole was a 5 on the longest hole. I did manage an easy 3 on #9.

Now as far as the Dr. Fred Baskets. If you hit chains right you are in, if you hit chains left I always got spit. They are very quiet compaired to most disc golf baskets. BUT they are very unforgiving when you hit the rim of the basket. I saw more than one shot skip off the very smooth rim and go WAY past the basket.

But there is almost no chance of a DROT on these baskets. In fact we were having fun making short putts by tossing them into the top of the basket.

In all, not that bad of a course. Lots of rollers for me. The ground was very flat and hard. As long as i didn't hit a sandy part, my rollers went a long way.

If this course was not 45 miles from my home, I might actually play it a few times. As for now, I might try to make a leage play once a month or something. I would play a tournament out there, but no casual rounds for that far of a drive. (i have not even played ZBoaz in over a year)

How much do those baskets cost? My grandparents have a ton of land at their place and I have made a great 9 hole layout up there but I am too poor to buy 8 more expensive baskets.

Reese said that he now owns the rights to those baskets and he does not sell them other than for Fly18 courses. That way you always know it is one of his courses.

But you never know, if you offer to buy 9 baskets, you might be able to work something out.

I see.

I did like them and they seemed to be perfect for what I was looking for.

Any other suggestions?

I see.

I did like them and they seemed to be perfect for what I was looking for.

Any other suggestions?



Dave Hemmeline has built baskets out of PVC before. You might contact him for some ideas. He also has a really cool "mini" basket for his toddler that is foam padded. His youngest son is 18 months - 2 yrs and already has a wicked lefty hyzer and a roller. Instead of Barney, his son watches Hotshots. Pretty funny.

The DFA baskets are made out of aluminum or steel, or some kind of metal. They aren't PVC.

PG, man, if I would've known you were going that, I definitely would've gone back to hole one with you to play the whole course!

Now you guys are starting to come around. FLY 18 = Great Product :cool:

Fa Shizzle my nizzle...Got back last nite from Fort Worth at Ideal Golf Ranch can we say HOT HOT!!!!!!!!! 115 on sunday 105 on sat..My trip started last wendasday nite I left at 8:30 PM orange county CA landed in Las Vegas 2 hr delay :( we left about 11:45 landed in Houston at 5:30 AM mt truck I had reserved to pick up baskets and everything else NO Truck..the lady said we have some vans I ended up getting a 8 passenger van and removing all the seats I was sweating like a stuck pig. I drove to congers house where I have stored them for months thanks CONG.Weeds had grown around them and the pads were covered with slugs and bugs and wet :(I loaded the mess up and then took a shower in the back yard with the hose it is 4:00 am in the morning for me.I then drive to Classic 3 to get my poles with a 60 lb ball of concrete on each one I then take a sledge hammer to the ball it laughs at me :p after 5 min and a few pieces missing I give up. I will take them the way they are .the van has 18 baskets 10 tee pads over 1,800 lbs. and now come the poles 1,260 lbs and not much room left .The poles were stored behind a shed with a fence 3 ft away and 40 ft back.Now loaded with 3,060 lbs I take my 2nd shower by hose.But wait I forgot to mention about my encounter with only 2 poles left I lift the 2nd to last pole and surprise under my legs is a 18 inch copper head snake. I have no where to go the the grounds keeper was talking to me when it happened he came up and said dont move he goes and gets a ax and cuts its head off right in front of me.He said they travel in packs of 2 so there must be another one around here I have 2 poles left I am in sandels :o....Yes copperheads are not nice you go to hospital do not pass go.The super put big boots on and went to get the last 2 poles.I am riding verry low cali style I now have a 4 and a half ride to Fort Worth.I am feeling the effects the wall is here.I pull over for a 30 min nap.Still 4 hrs to go I get there at 1:30 start on design finish on 6 holes and then go to Zboz to see what type of golf they are used to at 6:00.Played for 2 1/2 hrs in 98 degree weather... went out to dinner got back at 10:30 and fell over day 1.On to the present we opened up on Monday at 5:00 to 28 players Nolan Grinder shot a 52 a -8 .. I shot a bogie free round with a 57.While we were playing Brian said he had a suprise for me as we turned the corner of hole 9 this big foot image came twards us slowley the closer he came to us a image appeared to have long flowing lox of hair carring 4 multi collerd discs It was Rhett he played the back 9 with us and birided the long dangerous 384 par 3...I love this course no water and no elevation but lots of oak trees and a great staff the course measures ot at 8,108 ft par 60 6 par 4s....Two of our holes are along 3 freeways and we have a place to hand big banners to promote Disc Golf.Thanks To Mace Man and all of the great helping hands he provided a special thanks to John for working on the hottest of days and getting blisters with me cutting chain 700 ft.I had a great time in Texas but happy to be back in callie.This will be the coolest course this summer with carts and cold beer flowin rates are weekdays 2 for $20 with cart $6 walking and twilight is $5 all you can play walking after 5:00.weekendays are 2 for $22 ...Leagues on every monday 5:30 to 6:15 tee times.All in only 6 days ;) I will rest today.Thanks to the 42 players we had on the first 2 days it was open it was a sight to see as I left.Vision Complete...........I will take 2 weeks to move into my new home and then 29 palms will go in ,and the week after Semi Valley.......More to come from Fly 18 building Disc Golfs premier courses ....Vision Purpose

Semi Valley



:p Its <font color="blue">S</font><font color="red">I</font><font color="blue">MI VALLEY </font>

Come on Reese, Try to learn how to spell the names of the citys your trying to promote :o

Ill be right around the corner on Fathers Day Weekend, Ill help if its in the time frame :D

Thanks dad your swell.. :pCan I go outside and play catch?I am not sure what date I am going to start on SIMI ,but I would like some help, what is spell chech for $200 alex. :D:D:D

Thanks dad your swell.. :pCan I go outside and play catch?I am not sure what date I am going to start on SIMI ,but I would like some help, what is spell chech for $200 alex. :D:D:D



:DSpell check wont help you with that one..

It will be nice to have a Fly18 course close to my parents house. It wont be such a pain to visit /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

There are three things that you need to be aware of when you go out to play at Ideal Golf Ranch.

First and foremost you are the exception not the rule. You are the new guy on the course with a new activity (to most of the other golfers). You need to pay attention to what you are doing in relation to all of the other players around you. Please behave yourself and do not act like you own or rule the course. We are guests and if DG players conduct is not acceptable the disc golf part of the course will become a memory.

Second you can not bring your own beer out there. They have a liquor license and it is against the law for you to bring your own beer out there to drink. If the TABC catches you bringing out your own beer then you will get ticketed and Ideal will loose their liquor license. And as a result we will loose our opportunity to play our game on their course.

Third you must stay off the green's and tee's with the carts. This is not a green light to have a golf cart derby. Please be careful and respectful of the facility and stay off the greens and tee's.

It all comes down to this, if you can't behave then you should stay away. Enjoy the privilege and respect the facility. This is a very big promotional tool and it could lead to more acceptance of our game by the other game's players. This can be a key factor in our progress overall.

Great post Mace

kid - check out www.dolf.com (http://www.dolf.com) for what you need. If you really wanna go cheap, get the PVC, but they won't last terribly long if they get knocked over or banged into too many times. Make sure you spike them in, too.

Looked, the online store is temporarily closed.

Should have looked sooner as I saw the store today. Also, I have seen that site years ago. :cool:

I got a chance to go play the Ideal Ranch. I took my father-in law for his fist disc golf game ever! It was really a great time. I saw Lee driving around lost on the golf cart! We found that if you follow the ball golf course it is easy to find your way around. Hey are there any plans to put number plates on them. I ask because I could proubably make them at my shop you would just need the stickers. Anyways it was a pleasure to be able to play there thanks to all that helped put it in the ground.

Yes we will have the pads with hole # and distance on them this weekend.All the baskets on all the holes follow the course and are visable from the tee box I dont hide them on you.The course is lots of fun.

A bunch of us are going to be at Ideal this evening. I will not get down there until 6:30 or so, but Charles and Dan will be there around 6. We will be throwing discs this time. I want to see if we can play ball and disc at the same time. Would take some time, but that would be a fun saturday or sunday afternoon round!!! :cool:

Where exactly is this place? Remember, I don't live anywhere around there. Be specific. ;)

Thanks,
Brian

Ideal is located on Business 287, just north of 820/20 in Southeast Fort Worth. If you are coming on 20 west, the exit for Business 287 is on the left before the merge with 820. The club house is a metal building about 100 yards off of the road on the right just past the junk yard. It is less than 1/2 mile north of 820/20.

Thank you.

If I can get my errands done in time, I'll be out there.

Brian

Cool, We should have at least 2 groups. Should be alot of fun!!! :cool:

Turn on Business 287 from 20 as if you were going to the strip clubs. If you pass the strip clubs and continue on Bus 287, you should get to the golf ranch. If you stop at the strip clubs, then perhaps we will see ya' later.

Actually the strip clubs and XXX shops are on the outside of the loop. Ideal is on the inside of the loop.

Turn on Business 287 from 20 as if you were going to the strip clubs. If you pass the strip clubs and continue on Bus 287, you should get to the golf ranch. If you stop at the strip clubs, then perhaps we will see ya' later.



Actually, I'm already at the strip clubs. :D Should be done in a few hours. :o

Laura - thanks for assuming I knew where the clubs were..... :D

They have internet at the strip clubs now :D

The laptop is in the seat next to me. no room on the lap for it.... :o

That was good...

we may bring a crew out to the FLY 18 on Monday if they will be open on Memorial day...I would assume they are

They will be open on Monday. We will not start the weekly events until next Monday. I have a copy of the ledend if you are intrested, it will be available at the Pro Shop as well.

Hole Par Distance Tee location Basket location
1���3 307 Pad left of box right of green ob 28 ft past ob 28 before
2���3 354 Pad left of box behind green 30 ft ob 45ft past sidewalk and beyond
3���4 780 On the golf box Past driving range on right all driving range is OB
4���4 570 PAD 70ft past 4 through trees on left side of fairway
5��...3 295 Pad left of box right of green OB green left 30 ft
6��...3 324 Pad 70ft right of 5 left of green tucked in trees
7��...4 511 Pad left of box left of fairway tucked in trees
8��...3 363 Pad behind box Right of faway tucked in trees
9��..4 709 elevated golf box left Past green 70 ft driving range OB also putting basket
10��..3 390 Front right of box Past green 60 ft left
11��..3 345 Pad front right of box Past green right 35ft
12��..4 783 Pad right of box Righr of fairway OB 45 ft right past fence poles
13��..4 654 Right front of box Past green left 45ft
14�.�3 375 Behind box 50 ft Right if fairway open field
15��..3 420 100ft right by ob line Past green 70 ft OB all the way down past poles
16��3 243 Pad 70 ft right of 15 Straight ahead OB green 45ft right
17��..3 339 Pad behind box right of green past 40 ft ob green left 45 ft
18��..3 346 Right of box past green 45 ft ob putting green 50 ft
PAR 60 8,108 Ft. IDEAL GOLF RANCH 5151 MANSFIELD HWY FT>WORTH TX 76119
Pro Shop 817-572-7312 MaceMan Monday League 817-860-4653 Fly 18 Reese 714-235-0100
RULES ALL DEFINED GREENS ARE OB
KEEP ALL CARTS 30FT FROM GREENS AND OFF TEE BOXES
NO COOLERS OR BEER PERMITED UNLESS SERVED FROM PRO SHOP ONLY
PLEASE ASK BEFORE PASSING A GOLFER
HAVE A GREAT TIME AND ENJOY THE EXPERIENCE

OPEN FOR PLAY 7 DAYS A WEEK ;)

Adam, Come out to Veterans for team golf in the morning and then head over to Ideal for an afternoon round!!

excellant!

for those of you who are recording your rounds and averages, i have added Ideal's Fly 18 course to www.earthoffice.net/discgolf (http://www.earthoffice.net/discgolf)

I don't how it is at Ideal, but at Emerald on a holiday the course is packed with ball golfers. You might want to call first and ask how crowded they are on Monday, because it isn't that fun when the course is full and moving at ball golf speed.

I am going to head out there tomorrow morning sometime... I think around 10-11 oclock if anyone is interested in meeting me out there... I am bringing one of my work buddies to check out the new course.

I was thinking the same thing as Rhett. If you ever played stick golf at Ideal, you know that under the best conditions you had to be aware of golf balls flying near your head at all times. The golfers that play there aren't going to the PGA Tour anytime soon. Pack the course with a whole bunch of bad golfers on a holiday and it's going to be like dodgeball, except the balls are flying at you at 100 miles an hour. :eek:

Disc golf on, or along side, Ball golf courses will make money, but in my opinion are a very bad idea. There is no cross-over to be seen, and I would be humiliated to ride in a motorized golf cart to play disc golf. I play ball golf, and enjoy it very much, my handicap has gone from a 9 up to 13, just like my disc golf game has been on a downward slide, or drop-off. Excluding the general format, and similar name, disc golf and ball golf are different animals. I read in DGWN how wonderful it was to see a father playing ball golf, along with his children playing disc golf together...glad the family is together, but this is actually a nightmare of a sitiuation.

Promote disc golf!!!!........YES.........but keep BALL and DISC golf seperate from each other, as it will end up that way in the end anyway. Disc golf needs to carve out its' own area, be it land, rules, identity, demographic, procedures, standards and even attire (collared shirts are idiotic)...as I predicted to my father, who did not believe me, the top Ball golfers have went to COMFORTABLE mock shirts. There is much to be done in the sport we love...please do not water it down with wide open fairways (mostly), and having to answer to another governing body....we have the PDGA, they should take a stand against this practice. Make your $$$, but do not promote it as futhering disc golf for the future, it is not, and will not. Much more to support my anti-views, but will not put too much time into this right now. Just "food-for-thought"....build a Disc golf course, ahhhh, where people can enjoy the established sport.

Brandon

Your nuckles are dragging in the eveloution game.I wont take away your park and the PDGA wont stop me .You should try a double wide to expand your thinking :D:o..Please inform your friends what leavs are good for TP .You should try one before you comment :o

excellant!

for those of you who are recording your rounds and averages, i have added Ideal's Fly 18 course to www.earthoffice.net/discgolf (http://www.earthoffice.net/discgolf)



pimp.

I wish I was there with Lee t'other day, but my arm was teh no good. I hope we can get a group together for monday :)

I just don't see the point of putting a DG course alongs side BG when the holes aren't any longer than what you would find in a regular public park. From what I have seen about fly 18 the courses are TOO easy because they are open and not even that long so I have no reason to go pay $$ to play a course that presents no challenge. On the other hane the spring valley course in H-town is longer than the fly 18's but also has a tight course on the land around the BG course so you get long and open as well as shorter tight holes(I will pay money for variety.). :D:D

I just don't see the point of putting a DG course alongs side BG when the holes aren't any longer than what you would find in a regular public park. From what I have seen about fly 18 the courses are TOO easy because they are open and not even that long so I have no reason to go pay $$ to play a course that presents no challenge. On the other hane the spring valley course in H-town is longer than the fly 18's but also has a tight course on the land around the BG course so you get long and open as well as shorter tight holes(I will pay money for variety.). :D:D



Any course youve seen must be on an "Executive Course" (Par3)
Most Fly18 courses are HUGE.....and quite a challenge..unless your just a kid of course :D

I just don't see the point of putting a DG course alongs side BG when the holes aren't any longer than what you would find in a regular public park. From what I have seen about fly 18 the courses are TOO easy because they are open and not even that long so I have no reason to go pay $$ to play a course that presents no challenge. On the other hane the spring valley course in H-town is longer than the fly 18's but also has a tight course on the land around the BG course so you get long and open as well as shorter tight holes(I will pay money for variety.). :D:D



I'll agree that most Fly 18 courses are relatively open from the tee. However, there is a big difference between Park golf and Fly 18 golf. Normally in a park you have to negotiate aerial obstacles(eg. trees)which takes a good understanding of the flight of your disc. Fly 18 golf has less aerial obstacles, but more ground obstacles(sand traps, greens, stakes-all are OB). In my opinion it takes greater knowledge of the flight of your disc to plan where the disc will land, rather than where it will fly.

Once again talking out your bungie..... /msgboard/images/graemlins/ooo.gifFly 18 has the longest courses around and some of the longest holes in disc golf.Sarasota par 72 13,131 ft Mission trails par 71 13,013 ft with holes over 1,223 ft par 5 both courses have 4 par 5s each.Ideal Ranch steps on Spring valley for distance at 8,108 for 18 holes par 60 on a golf course ...And I think it is the biggest in TEXAS :ofor 18 holes.Fly 18 ,imitation is flattery but the original stands alone. ;)

Reese, I'm pretty sure DVINCENT was complimenting your courses.

I was replying to scooter boy not dirty D...... :D

Having played on several of Reeces "FLY 18" courses as well as one we had here in St Louis for about a year that I installed, I would beg to differ about wide open fairways making it easy to drive.
I have about 425- 450 D and maybe 500 now and then, especially if I roll on that short fairway grass :D.
Ny accuracy starts to fall of when trying to get more the 400 though.
The first thing that players will do when playing disc golf on ball golf course is they forget about the accuracy of where the disc will land. It is very easy to turn a 900 foot hole into an 1100 foot hole if you cant throw and land the discs straight and land them where you want to.
The wide open spaces are very deceiving and are not as wide open as the appear.
It usually takes at least a few rounds on a fly 18 course to figure out how to pick out the landing area on the ground, instead of just hucking into what appears to be wide open spaces.
The fly 18 course that reece and I put in In St Peters had a ton of water, sand and even a few tight holes. The course was mostly flat but played very tough because of the "ground obstacles" The other course That I installed had a lot of elevation changes, creeks and lakes as well as some very tight gaps and pin placements that were tucked in and around trees.
A bit of insight on distance and accuracy,
It is WAY harder to throw 450 accurate than 350 accurate and anyone who disagrees with this probably cant throw 450.
High speed long range drivers are sold about 100-1 in comparison to putters and mid-ranges.
Most new players dont have any mid-ranges and some even putt with their drivers.
Its too bad that most top pros or players who have good distance dont get to use the long high speed drivers for 10-12 big drives a round ( like ball golfers do) except when playing fly 18 or par 72 type courses.
The whole long range driver craze has new players trying to throw discs meant for 350 and above and holes of 300 and less. This usually causes them to learn the game with improper techinque while trying to " make it work" on the shorter holes.
In most cities PARK DISC GOLF is 2/3 putting.
We have the luxury of Sioux Passage being set up at 9300 plus feet with a legitimate par of at least 67.
Putting there and on fly 18 type courses is more like 2/5ths of the game, which is where it should be in golf
( disc or ball) 2/5ths driving 1/5th approaching and 2/5ths putting
If you not a really good putter you most likely are not one of the better players at your park course, but if you huge off the tee with accuracy and have a decent approach game, you could be very compettitve against the same players on a par 70-72 course.
Almost all of the players who are currently considered to be among the best or consistantly at or near the top are excellent putters. On the longer and harder courses you will see players jump up near the top that you dont normally see there.
While I will agree there are some problems that arize with disc golf along side of ball golf, most of the problems are of the social type.
Simply stated; Ball golfers think they are better than disc golfers and would rather not be associated with them, kind of the same way ultimate players think!

Instead of making 24 hole courses, we should make more par 4's amd 5's on the 18 holes golf is meant to be.

Reece,
Dont take this the wrong way but I used to play disc golf on a few of our area ball golf courses as long ago as 1984.
In fact we played the final round in the 88 worlds in Cincinnati on a ball golf course.
While you are one of the only ones selling and installing them on ball golf courses, you are far from the 1st to have the idea!
One of Gateways mission statements is to develop more par 70 type courses not on the ball golf courses but at the same facility as well as in parks that have that type of land.
The hardest thing to overcome is getting players to actually use the terms par 4's and 5's.
Knowing how detrimental calling a 1000 foot par 5 a par 3 is, I still wind up saying I shot 6 over 60 instaed of 7 under 60 at the sioux passage course in last weeks B tier!
If no one gets a 2 on a hole than its a par 4 and if there are only a few 3's than its most likely a par 5.

Most newer players get the idea, but its the old school guy who has the most problem with calling holes by their true par!

Once again talking out your bungie..... /msgboard/images/graemlins/ooo.gifFly 18 has the longest courses around and some of the longest holes in disc golf.Sarasota par 72 13,131 ft Mission trails par 71 13,013 ft with holes over 1,223 ft par 5 both courses have 4 par 5s each.Ideal Ranch steps on Spring valley for distance at 8,108 for 18 holes par 60 on a golf course ...And I think it is the biggest in TEXAS :ofor 18 holes.Fly 18 ,imitation is flattery but the original stands alone. ;)



Yes but that 13,000 is not even to the 17,000 that we played in nthe media blitz. I Just want to go out and have a couse that will force me to throw a roller and on an open hole it mut be at least 1000 feet for me to put the disc on the ground. The course we played in the media blitz was all that you could ask for in distace, variety and beauty. Lastly I just added up the 9 BG holes at spring valley and it comes out to 5410ft for 9 and 10,820 for 18 but you have to remember that this is a 27 hole course and this makes up only 9 of them. We had a Mini out there recently and we had planned on playing dubs afterwards but that course was so brutal that even I was reluctant to go again and I usually play 6 rounds a day when I can. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Nicely put Dave ....I really liked the St Peters course it had some great holes.That was the course that T. Branch quit with 5 holes left because he rolled or threw 5 of his unreplaceable discs in the drink :o..... I think Avery shot a -4....But I will disagree with direction...We have all played on a golf course after hours and lots of temporary tournements and some have played the course with the owners approval with discs and played a greens fees and played with friends to the pole.But the concept, on a full time basis, 7 days a week ,on champoinship course, with a cart, and all the luxries that golf has to offer.And show speed of play, precieved image,liability issues, and a design that kept the flow of the course away from senstive areas ,and a profit for them ,and me .Not to say a professional venue to showcase our atheleats to the world .We all have our vision ,we can do what ever we want ,and make a difference in our town.After 29 palms and simi valley I will have had 14 golf courses full time, with baskets on them, and lots more to come.Your support for the sport goes back to the early days, and still continues I like you marketing to the pros and ams and beginner.My 6 year old is tapping my back MADASGAR time :D

Can you play that 17,000 ft wth baskets today?With that much distance there must be no design or risk.I could make a course 25,000 ft on either of my championship courses but it would not par out.Look at the #rs from your event this will tell a story.You are only 9 holes at a lager par per 9 thats why 1 and 10 look the same.If you go around my course twice it is 16,216 compare apples to apples not oranges.

Can you play that 17,000 ft wth baskets today?With that much distance there must be no design or risk.I could make a course 25,000 ft on either of my championship courses but it would not par out.Look at the #rs from your event this will tell a story.You are only 9 holes at a lager par per 9 thats why 1 and 10 look the same.If you go around my course twice it is 16,216 compare apples to apples not oranges.



This was the best course I have ever played and yes I do play BG and there were a lot of really "really" cool holes that challenged event the biggest of arms and if you have a good round shooting par or better is definant;y possible. In doubles there was a -10, -9, -6, -5, and about three or four more under par rounds so I think that it makes for a very good course compared to what I have seen from yours. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Reese, can you play along with a ball golfer. Meaning, my father is a 5 handicap ball golfer and I wanna challenge him. Me discin him ballin. Is this allowed?

Yes,same par,same cart,same game,same price.Pops is gonna loose a few bucks.Enjoy the experience....F18

"The course we played in the media blitz was all that you could ask for in distace, variety and beauty."
I agree. However, I played the Fly 18 at Ideal Friday and had a great time. I plan to do it again. I would think of Ideal as good training for someplace like Circle C golf club. Many, like Matt, might not think of Ideal as challenging. However, some of us, like myself, need a place like Ideal to work up to someday, perhaps next year, playing a place like Circle C Golf Club. No, I don't see any of the really greats with really big arms playing Ideal with any frequency. However, I do see the need for it. I do see the value of it and do plan on playing it to hopefully get my drives longer.
The owner of the park seemed very nice and wanted make sure we had a good time. There were 10 of us playing Friday night. We all had a great time. There were a few ball golfers out there that noticed us. We got a few puzzled looks from them. Thank you Reese and Brian for bringinig it to us.

Mind more open, and able to hold much more than the accuser...no "name-calling", grow up please.

Rubber "welcome mats"........nothing more...FACT

No one choses them over ANY alternate tee area....FACT

Been stated on a Worlds video, "they are dangerous, and I
did not want to get hurt"...FACT

At AM Championships, all players given choice of "mats", or a foot or two to the left or right of the "mats", 99% chose the area around the "mats"...............FACT

They are a very poor products.........FACT

More on the un-defendable idea of DG courses along side Ball golf courses later...........

Brandon

I was out at Ideal Golf Ranch on friday and was talking to the owner about a bunch of stuff, he talked for a while about how players had said the pads where to short and he said they did not last. I personally dont care one way or another. He on the other hand had his opinion! He also said if it was his he would have changed other things.

you are not worth a reply :o

The 6 pads will be there next week to finish the course along with a new ledgend sheet.Those pads will last over 6 years long unless a mower eats it.The proshop will be stocked also Maceman will be running events every monday nite 5 to 6:30PM.....

Stop slamming the man and enjoy a course that runs along side some great terrain for stick golfers..I bet the rain last night didnt' effect it and those pads are fine when DRY

I will shoot left or right if wet, but unless its a tourney..who wants to play in the rain :D

Keep it up Reese (sp?) and Mace

Just got home from a little fine tuning of the course. There is now either a mat or white 2" X 2" stakes on the holes without mats to indicate where the tee areas are. There are also maps with the locations of the disc golf tee's and basket's in relation to the ball golf holes, complete with a list of distances and ground rules on the back available at the pro shop now. I think that it should be very easy to find your way around the course.

We will start the weekly on Monday night. Start will be flex between 5pm and 6:30pm. It will cost $5 for all divisions. Open pays cash and Am pays plastic. There is an ace pot that is guaranteed to be worth $100 as well. You will have to pay your green's fee of $5 for walking and $20 per pair in a cart as well as your entry fee.

FLYBOY..........says I am not worth a reply, yet cowardly, and like a fussy' child, goes and leaves me a personal message? AGAIN, resorting to name calling, what are we in 5th grade? Name calling is the 1st sign of intellectual weakness!

Makes me feel very worthy of a reply indeed........

Maybe I will entertain the ideas of your "Wal-Mart" style product, and mis-guided venture into the combining of the golfs' at another time.

For now.......have fun playing "dodge-ball", isnt' that what they do in 5th grade these days? And do not get so :confused: :confused: :confused:ahhhh!

Chains

I just got back from Ft. Worth and playing the Fly 18 there. I thought it was very cool and the course was layed out into a very nice disc golf course. Too many leftie holes though. I would definately go back but never to play ball golf there.

And to anyone who thinks that Fly 18 or having ball and disc golf together is a bad idea needs to wake up and smell the coffee.

Come on out tonight for the first league. Come out and enjoy the good times.

so how did your 1st league night go?

It went well. We had 12 players, it was a good start. We outnumbered the ball golfers considerably. I only saw 2 ball players while we were out there.

Here are the results:
Shawn Robertson 56 $20
Brian Mace 56 $20
David Wingate 58 $10
Brad Bishop 58 $10
David Covalt 59
Marc Hazel 59
Chris Pepperling 60
Shawn Wooten 61
Steve Martin 63
Charles Cox III 66
PJ Fry 69
Dan McGough 72

I have been asked By Reese to announce the installation of 18 baskets at Ideal Golf Ranch on their executive par 3 ball golf course.



Hey Brian I think that I missed the executive part of the Golf Ranch when I was there :D. Where is that part at?

I finally made it out to the Fly18 disc golf course at Ideal Ranch in Fort Worth. It's one of the metroplex's BETTER disc golf courses, and one of the World's worst ball golf courses. :D

I don't get too many Monday nights, but if you have the time, come play the mini at Ideal on Monday nights!

Disc golf with golf carts kicks [I'm a potty-mouth!]!~

Does anyone want to play Ideal tomorrow about 1 or 2?

I am thinking about playing out there on Saturday. The boys want to drive a cart and play disc golf. Not sure I want Roo in a golf cart again, but we will see. :cool:

They need cart paths out there. I now know why courses have cart paths!

They have cart paths, it is the worn down dirt area's. Oh wait, that is the whole course!!!!!!!!! :cool:

I thought those were the BAJA 1000's race roads. Some of them have HUGE ruts!

Most of those ruts were caused by Dennie Ortega. We were out there last year, right after it had rained and I think Dennie hit EVERY place that was mud and got the carts stuck on more than 3 occasions! That and letting his 8 yr old son drive the cart in donuts until the owner told him to NOT let his kid drive!!!!! That was a fun round let me tell you!!! :cool:

Most of those ruts were caused by Dennie Ortega.



NOW THAT'S HILARIOUS!!!!!!

Disc Golf will seperate itself from Ball Golf, no matter how hard people try to combine them, PERIOD.

Novelty at best is the idea, people will try it, and then get back to the real sport of Disc Golf.

Do not drink coffee...no smell there...and just bringing up the fact that the MAJORITY of disc golfers DO NOT LIKE the silly rubber pads people are trying to include in the game, and furthermore, make your $$$, more power to you....but allow the novelty of this Ball/Disc golf combo to run its' course...and THEN make remarks about the subject.

If someone were to really be all about the BETTERMENT of the sport, they would create courses where they belong, (private land, state parks, etc.....), and not lazily throw some baskets up, and rubber welcome mats down, at a Ball golf course and say how grand a concept this is.......it is NOT.

So, make your $$$........cool.......but if you can not accept opinion, fact and reality, do not entertain your ideas in a public forum!!...........and please FLYBOY, grow up and do not leave such bad, bad words in my personal mailbox....or if you do, at least put "I am A BABY" at the end of each message.

Also, someone mentioned taking away my sport, well, even the notion that a single person could is just pure ignorance.....and complete failure to READ words properly.

Rubber is for condoms,

Brandon

I'll have some of what he's smoking :D

I hope you have a nice time swimming with the flounders because you are a true bottem feeder. :DWhy are other people attempting to do the same thing???Sell rubber like the one your dad should have worn :o:eek:And golf courses the one you will never play .Your vision is to have none. Go and be, who who you are, a knome, garding some ones garden. :D

uggggggh? ok?

Make some sense man!.....

Enough of you for now......be gone...

A person cannot "bottom-feed", when they are right there. Anyone hiding?...not that I know of.....

Brandon

I played the course for the first time on Saturday. I liked the course and the baskets...but HATED the tees. Most of them were too short and the exposed metal anchors are a safety hazard. I prefered the holes without the pads for driving. I was already suffering some arm exhaustion so the longer holes were tough. Thank God for the golf cart, don't know if I could of made it in my state without them.

Mongo...you should play them wet...you would hate them even more :D

Considering that course would be a total mudhole I don't see myself playing them wet...heh
I would think that the material they use for tracks would be better for wet weather. It would also be nice if they could figure out a way to anchor it from below without anything sticking out like the anchors on the Flypads or whatever they are called. Either way, I'll probably just tee off the side next time I play. The last thing I need is to blow out an ankle or knee because of an unsafe anchoring system.

okay okay...I finally played disc golf on a ball golf course...18,000+ foot layout...best shot dubs(with my wife as my partner) head to head against ball golfers...we had a blast beating the ball golfers by 10 strokes...BUT,THIS WAS NOT DISC GOLF...700 ft roller after 700 ft roller gets boring and takes a lot less skill to score well...so I will stick to my Roll18 theme...and the best part was no RollPads :D:D:D

You need to try Ideal, or better yet Emerald Isle. Executive courses work better for disc golf courses, IMHO.

hmmmmmmmmm?

hated the tees?

try them wet, they are worse?

not disc golf?

hmmmmmmm?

Reality seeps in o' so slow..........

Rubber is for CONDOMS!!!!!!!

:confused:

It's a nice DISC golf course. Glad to have it here. Thanks.

chains11864 needs to just be ignored, he has some problem with Flyboy.

The tee pads were too small the only time i have played out there, but other than that, they are better than grass or dirt, but not as good as Cement.

I have yet to play them in the rain or wet.

I love the course. It is a lot of fun to play. I shot 1 off the record last time I was out there. Can't wait to get back to give it another shot!!!

This is an awesome course, and a great place to play disc golf. I am very pleased to have another course in the area.

I think that because this Chains guy lives in Virginia, chances are he has never played this course and probably never will. He should butt out and stop degrading the work of others who are trying to advance the game. He is the only one that I see complaining and he lives 20 hours away.

hmmmmmmmmm?

hated the tees?

try them wet, they are worse?

not disc golf?

hmmmmmmm?

Reality seeps in o' so slow..........

Rubber is for CONDOMS!!!!!!!



Emerald Isle is my home course, its a Fly 18 design. The tee pads are awesome if you have decent to great form, but I agree-if you aren't very good, you'll probably complain about the tees. :o

Double D...have you tried them in the rain?

The tee pads are awesome if you have decent to great form, but I agree-if you aren't very good, you'll probably complain about the tees.



Those pads suck. Get some dirt/mud on them and get them wet and it a freakin comedy act. Even by people with great form. They are way slicker than the standard Texas mudhole teebox.

Double D...have you tried them in the rain?

Yeah. I played all winter through crazy rain storms (SoCal's winter was crazy this yr.) and I admit they are slippery when wet. There is a little secret around that though. Next time you are playing the tees while wet, stand on the pad and shuffle your feet for 5-10 seconds. If you don't touch the grass again, you should have great grip on the pad. :cool:

Double D...have you tried them in the rain?

Yeah. I played all winter through crazy rain storms (SoCal's winter was crazy this yr.) and I admit they are slippery when wet. There is a little secret around that though. Next time you are playing the tees while wet, stand on the pad and shuffle your feet for 5-10 seconds. If you don't touch the grass again, you should have great grip on the pad. :cool:



that would be a great idea if they were long enough for that to occur...and is that the "Superbowl shuffle" of the 86 Bears you do on the pad,or is it more like a scat...this just in, Flypads still suck :D

Those pads suck. Get some dirt/mud on them and get them wet and it a freakin comedy act. Even by people with great form. They are way slicker than the standard Texas mudhole teebox.


The People's Standard, the concrete tee-pad, is also quite slick when you have mud or sand piled up on them. So what's your point? That FlyPads sukk if you rub vaseline all over them? Yup, they sure do. Nothing beats a Texas Mud-Hole Tee Pad for grip when you've poured a gallon of Vaseline all over the tee. You are right.

Double D...have you tried them in the rain?

Yeah. I played all winter through crazy rain storms (SoCal's winter was crazy this yr.) and I admit they are slippery when wet. There is a little secret around that though. Next time you are playing the tees while wet, stand on the pad and shuffle your feet for 5-10 seconds. If you don't touch the grass again, you should have great grip on the pad. :cool:



that would be a great idea if they were long enough for that to occur...and is that the "Superbowl shuffle" of the 86 Bears you do on the pad,or is it more like a scat...this just in, Flypads still suck :D


No I do the 'Dirty Bird'...and how much of a run up do you need, what are you doing the 40yd dash?

DirtyD=fool......read all the thread before judging

James.....I agree with you.....

As I stated earlier......it is to make $$$$$$$, that is cool, if people are ignorant enough to accept this lazy, lazy novelty act, so be it........drop some rubber mats on the ground and put in a few baskets......TAAA-DAAA!!!!!....a disc golf course..NOT! This is NOT furthering discgolf.....it is sticking your head so far up the rear-ends of ball golfers that they will never take the sport seriously..."excuse me, I do not have the brains, or work ethic, to create a real disc golf course, and I noticed you have some land off to the sides of your golf course, ummmm, could we, ummmmmmm, put up our mini-golf, oh I mean, novelty golf, oh I mean frisbee...opps....I mean our little sport thing over here? ...we will not bother you, promise......."

I am reporting, and stating the MAJORITY of disc golfers opinions about these rubber mats......they do NOT like them.....have constantly said this.......not just Virginia (the greatest state of all, second only to Texas in capital-punishment)....

I am a good disc golfer, and a good ball golfer......and love both games.....but they do not co-exist well...you shall see....

Also.......if childishflyboyguy had not left a personal message in my mail, with words like %$%$#@ and &^*&^%%, maybe, just maybe, i would not have to keep dragging him back to reality......

Any tee-area.........is better than these useless, dangerous and foolish rubber things.

Brandon

Dirty Bird(good one)...I use no run up at all(just the x-step) but I start on the side and the RollPads are not very wide...I played disc on a ball golf course and found the natural grass tee pads to be fantastic(I was able to get perfect footing on every single roller) all the rest of your shots are on grass so why not tee on the same surface that is already there...we played an 18,400 layout(that is over a 1000 ft a hole,to help RollBoy with the math)so on most holes a normal player is throwing more than one drive...so why not off the same surface?...and Brandon, use the "ignore this user" on RollBoy and not only do the PM'S STOP BUT SO DO HIS POSTS...this just in, FlyPads still suck :D

My point, and just about everyone I have ever heard comment on the rubber pads, is that they suck unless they are dry. You can try to argue by comparing wet and muddy flypads to wet and muddy concrete pads. Neither are good, although the the flypads are worse.

Anyways, how about let's discuss the non-extremes. You know, the common scenarios. Early morning dew. Concrete, no problem. Flypad, danger. Light to heavy rain with little mud. Concrete, no problem. Flypad, danger.

I got no personal stake in this matter. Just calling a spade a spade. Unless they are dry, they really suck.

They were dry as a bone the day I played Ideal. Whoever came up with the idea of having 6 - 8 anchors that stick up didn't put much thought into safety issues. I almost tripped over one of them during my approach, luckily it was a slow walk-up instead of my normal approach. If I had been going normal speed I would of tripped and quite likely sprained my ankle or worse.

A concrete teebox that has rocks the size of the anchors thrown in it would be considered ruined. Hardly any of the tees at Ideal are a uniform size, some are fine and have plenty of room...others don't even have enough room for me to take a single step without stepping off the end. Perhaps if the mats were wider the anchors wouldn't be so much of an issue, but figuring a way to anchor them down without the top of huge metal bolts sticking out the top would be much better.

The holes without rubber mats had AWESOME natural tees. No ruts or anything, just nicely mowed grass.

That is because the course has not been played that much yet.

I was told the pads at idea are temporary, the plan is to replace them and install them correctly in the future.

And I have played on one wet flypad and had no more of a problem than a cement tee pad. Put a towel down where you plant your food and you will get plenty of traction. (learned that from some okies)

Put a towel down where you plant your food and you will get plenty of traction. (learned that from some okies)



What kind of food in OK do that grow that gets good traction? Is that good for the bowels, too? :D

Put a towel down where you plant your food and you will get plenty of traction. (learned that from some okies)



What kind of food in OK do that grow that gets good traction? Is that good for the bowels, too? :D



That is a funny typo :D FOOT

Anyways, how about let's discuss the non-extremes. You know, the common scenarios. Early morning dew. Concrete, no problem. Flypad, danger. Light to heavy rain with little mud. Concrete, no problem. Flypad, danger.



I have played on FlyPads when they were dewey, wet, and soaked. I did not have a problem with traction. The dewey grass next to the pad was more slippery than the FlyPad.

Are you sure you were playing on FlyPads and not some other kind of rubber mat? I have no stake in this either. In fact, it really bothers me to stick up for Reese. :) But FlyPads are good.

... And I have played on one wet flypad and had no more of a problem than a cement tee pad...


I know this may seem picky, but here goes...

Cement is nothing more than the powder that is used to mix with water and an aggregate material to make concrete. We don't use cement tees on any of the courses in DFW, or anywhere else that I've ever played.

We use concrete....

say it with me.... concrete.

Concrete

CONCRETE

CONCRETECONCRETECONCRETECONCRETE!!!!

This concludes today's lesson. :D:D:D:D

Interesting......I still do not know what a "bottom feeder" is....can not be my game, it is reasonably good....can not be my posting, I do not hide from anyone....can not be my language, I do not call flyboy' anything like mulletboy' or notaboy'......well anyway.....


put just a small amount of dry dirt, on a dry pad, and it feels like ice...

wet pad=danger...

if ground is at all uneven (under) pad=very dangerous, (quoted on a worlds video)

if ground is even under pad=you should be teeing from the natural ground!

anchors?=another problem with pads

This product, or ANY like it, remind me of that Dr. guy trying to pass off his "plumbing tubes baskets" as a better alternative to the selection of disc golf targets we have. Can the baskets we use be improved?...probally, but the general design will saty the same.

Now, WHY do we see pads being used?....I know fboy will come ranting, and crying into this one......I THINK, MAYBE that when offered, whether it is a rubber mat, or an oriental carpet, the PDGA and tournament staff like to have something to indicate THE tee area. For some reason, two marker flags with a line in between is not favored, (in general / or in larger events), although in 95% of the tournaments I have played this is acceptable, and appreciated. Maybe it is just an asthetic thing? Do not know the answer to this one, but do know some people are taking full advantage of the situation.

Rhett......maybe your run-up, or approach to the pad when teeing off is not affected, (or effected?), by the pads because it is slower, or less in speed from beginning to end? Not that this is bad, I know many dgolfers who just one-step and throw. But also know some dgolfers who look like linebackers coming through the tee area....and yes, these are top dgolfers (for those who will start to critize')

Also......back to someone's reference to Virginia and disc golf........as if it were a bad thing......I would never brag about myself, but will for sure yell about the highest rated disc golf round in the HISTORY of the game (1115!) being thrown down by a, you guessed it....a Virginia disc golfer!!!!!!


Enough fun for today.......no cryin' please.....

Rubber is for condoms...and for insults to bounce of me and stick on you :D...that is funny considering fboy likes name callin'

B

I would never brag about myself, but will for sure yell about the highest rated disc golf round in the HISTORY of the game (1115!)



Still the highest rated round on record but the official number looks like 1101 once the ratings were processed.