During a mini last night, a buddy of mine in his second mini (he's been playing for about a month and the bug has bitten him pretty hard) is fighting to stay under par for the first time ever. He misses about a 10 foot par putt. This puts him at even with 2 holes to go and that he doesn't like. When the putt bounced off the cage the fun began...

...he takes a running kick at his bag sitting about 10 feet in front of him...The bag strap gets caught on his foot and swings up and bashes him in the face (absolute comedy if I have ever witnessed it before)...With the bag attacking him and me and the other guy on the card laughing hysterically his anger grew even more fierce...He swipes at the bag as it hits his face and throws it about 20 feet...Upon which (get ready for more comedy) 3 discs roll out of his bag, down a hill and into an OB creek.

We administered no punishment, primarily because we were laughing too hard, but also because his score was pretty irrelevant at this point. As I was re-telling this story to my wife she asks a question that I haven't thought about and didn't quite know the answer to.

What I am really interested in is if you throw a disc in anger and it goes OB, <font color="red"> do you take a stroke for throwing the disc and then a penalty stroke for going OB? What lie do you then play from, the one in the creek or the one sitting 2 feet from the basket after bouncing off the cage? </font> You guys can debate what my friend's actual score would have been but the questions in red are the ones that I am really interested in. Thanks for your help DGRZ's.

he never threw a disc ...they fell out of his bag that was kick as a curtious violation :o
good story and you tell it so well

dixon, nice scenario! musta been hysterical... i just hope he is your GOOD friend!

anyway, it doesnt sound like when he threw his bag he was at his mark, so at worst practice throw violations would be assessed and he would play from his missed putt. discussing whether it was one throw for the whole bag, and therefore just a warning, or one infraction for each disc resulting in some strokes, is probably an exercise in fultility

From the glossary of the rules

Practice Throw: During a round, the projection of a disc of a distance greater than two meters, or of any distance toward a target, intentional or not, which does not change the player's lie, either because it did not occur from the teeing area or the lie, or because the player had already thrown competitively from the teeing area or the lie. Throws that are re-thrown in accordance with the rules are not practice throws. Provisional throws made pursuant to 803.00 C(3) are not practice throws. A player shall receive a penalty for practice throws in accordance with sections 803.00 B or 804.02 A (2).


Kicking the bag most definitely "projects" all the discs in it. Assuming he was not at his lie (I assume his bag was not sitting where his missed putt eventually came to rest), at a minimum the three discs that rolled down the hill and went more than 2 meters were practice throws. A practice throw is a one stroke penalty with no warning, so that would be 3 penalty strokes. Since you say his bag travelled 20 feet after he projected it and all of it's contents, then you could assess a penalty for each disc that was in the bag.

You could argue that it was a single practice throw that projected al the discs at once, but the practice throw definition says "a disc", so I would interpret that as each disc that gets projected earns a stroke.

Someone who reads the board once had a fit and threw his entire bag during a big tourney, and then calmly took a stroke for each disc in it even though his cardmates weren't going to enforce it. I can never remember who it was, but he usually comes on and says "that was me" when I reference that story. :) I think that is one of the best stories ever. You get mad, have a fit, and then the penalty you earned. No big deal.

IMO, after re-reading the full scenario several times, I would say the lie is from the missed putt. There would not be any strokes added because he did not throw out of anger. He kicked his bag. The bag threw the discs out and into the creek. That would grant a warning for a courtesy violation. However, if, as I have witnessed in the past, ( and your question in red seemed to ask) some one kicks their bag, discs roll out, then the outed discs are thrown in anger, practice throw penalty strokes are added for each "practice throw". Still, no OB strokes would be added because the actual lie is not OB.

I would ahve to go along with that. A courtesy warning for kicking the bag. The bag was projected, not "a disc", but a practice stroke for every disc he tosses back from the OB water to his bag (assuming that he tosses the discs back to the bag).

While you can argue that kicking is "projecting," I gotta disagree that kicking your bag is projecting discs. I don't even think kicking a disc directly is rightfully viewed as a practice throw. In fact, I was anal enough to look up the verb "project." The only definition in my dictionary that reasonably applies is to throw or cast forward: THRUST .

Therefore, throw is defined by using project, and project is defined as throw. It might be a practice kick, but not a practice throw. Courtesy warning. That's all.

I disagree. The discs were projected as well as the bag.

By that logic I could wrap a towel around a driver on a windy day, grip only the towel, and then project "the towel" down the fairway to get a read on the wind.

okay, so I humanized the bag and said the bag projected the discs, not the disc golfer.

And if you were able to get a useful read on the wind without delay or distracting other players I would be very impressed, but would not consider it a practice throw.

I prefer throwing grass in the air to get a read on the wind. I don't have to retrieve the grass.

James,

"Throw" is used all over the place in the rule book. Don't you think the rule would say "throw" instead of "project" if only actual throws (whatever they are) were to be made illegal under these circumstances?

And if you were able to get a useful read on the wind without delay or distracting other players I would be very impressed, but would not consider it a practice throw.

I prefer throwing grass in the air to get a read on the wind. I don't have to retrieve the grass.


You got the part where I would be gripping a disc and also throwing that down the fairway, right?

I hear what you are saying, and it is curious as to why they defined practice throw with the word "project." But, in my mind, there was no intent to practice throw, and I will therefore attempt to argue the rules with that in mind. ;)

I hear what you are saying, and it is curious as to why they defined practice throw with the word "project." But, in my mind, there was no intent to practice throw, and I will therefore attempt to argue the rules with that in mind. ;)


Let's revisit that rule, with my emphasis added a couple of words.

Practice Throw: During a round, the projection of a disc of a distance greater than two meters, or of any distance toward a target, intentional or not, which does not change the player's lie, either because it did not occur from the teeing area or the lie, or because the player had already thrown competitively from the teeing area or the lie. Throws that are re-thrown in accordance with the rules are not practice throws. Provisional throws made pursuant to 803.00 C(3) are not practice throws. A player shall receive a penalty for practice throws in accordance with sections 803.00 B or 804.02 A (2).


We can see that the rule specifically takes "intent" out of the equation. :)

There would not be any strokes added because he did not throw out of anger. He kicked his bag. The bag threw the discs out and into the creek. That would grant a warning for a courtesy violation. However, if, as I have witnessed in the past, ( and your question in red seemed to ask) some one kicks their bag, discs roll out, then the outed discs are thrown in anger, practice throw penalty strokes are added for each "practice throw".

A practice throw is defined as projecting a disc of a distance greater than 2 m, or of any distance toward a target, intentional or not, which does not change the player's lie. There is no requirement that a disc be thrown in anger in order to count as a practice throw.

Furthermore, the RC has determined that propelling a disc with one's foot constitutes a throw:
Rule Question: Throwing Styles: What's Legal?

Question: Are there any restrictions on how you throw the disc? For example, can you throw nothing but overhand shots?

Response: No, there are no restrictions on how you throw the disc. You may throw backhand, sidearm, overhand, thumber, or any other way that occurs to you. You can throw it with your foot if that works for you.

The definition of "Throw" in the glossary of the rules describes a throw as a "propulsion" of a disc that changes its position. There are many ways to propel a disc. As long as you use only your body and no artificial devices (see 802.04), you may throw the disc in any manner you like.

Yours Sincerely,
The PDGA Rules Committee

Dr. Rick Voakes
Harold Duvall
Joe Garcia
John Chapman
Conrad Damon
Carlton Howard

Based on that, kicking a disc, or a bag containing discs, constitutes a throw.

Though seemingly rare, I must agree with my fellow zeal ot, that it would be a stroke for each disc in the bag as a practice throw violation.

I have heard Carlton Howard, I'm pretty sure, tell the story of such a thing actually happening.

I highly recommend waiting until after the round for tantrum throwing. Then you are free to be more expressive and inventive without having to be a word that is no longer permitted on this discussion board to other players on the course.

Did you see my subsequent post where I confirmed I had humanized the bag in stating it had projected the discs, not the disc golfer? Yes, a disc can be thrown by any body part. However, a kicked bag is a kicked bag. I kicked disc would be a thrown disc.
Oh, I agree, anger does not have to be a part of practice throws. Anger was simply part of the question.

If a player trips over your bag and some discs fall out and roll more than 2m, then each one of these would be a practice throw according to the kicking interpretation. It gets absurd in the possibilities here, even though rare. Of course, the player might call me on a courtesy violation for having my bag where you can trip over it. But it might not be enough to overcome my win by two because he got three penalties and I maybe got one. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Laura, by kicking the bag you project the discs. Even if the projection of the discs is unintentional, it is still a practice throw.

i agree, totally absurd. kicking your bag and discs falling out is no more projecting them than if you drop one while putting it away and it rolls more than 2 meters. kicking your bag IS a courtest violation, and it should be enforced, we have enough people already that think a temper tantrum while playing is ok.....

I knew you were going to say that. I understand that intent does not matter to the rule, which states "intentional or not." I suspect that language exists because poeple were arguing that certain practice throws (in the common understanding of the word throw) were unintentional. Well, intent is hard to hang your hat on, so the rule was changed to make intent irrelevant.

However, on the level of those applying the rules, intent it a determining factor on both how I interpret and apply the rule(s) and to which rule(s) I think applies. Therefore, since there was clearly no intent to practice throw (common usage), I will come up with arguments (however lame) to prevent the application of the practice throw rule, thus my argument that kicking doesn't mean projecting, which doesn't mean practice throwing. Whew. :D

Alright, in light of Fore's post on the RC ruling, I am going with Laura's argument: that you are projecting the bag, not the discs. Bottom line, if I'm in that group, I will work hard at finding an interpretation that prevents calling a practice throw.

Please, James. The only time that call has ever been made or ever will be made is when the kicker calls themself on it.

And it is the right call.

so if we get in a bar brawl, i can say i was throwing your clothes across the room?

Okay, I'm happy then. I didn't realize zealotry had boundaries. :p

I will come up with arguments (however lame) to prevent the application of the (name a rule) rule



This is the culture as currently exists concerning rules and disc golf. It's like it is institutionalized:

"THE FOUNDATION FOR THE PREVENTION OF RULE CALLING"

I must say that I have made tax exempt donations to that foundation myself a time or two...

No Nick, I wholeheartedly disagree with your characterization. I would call it common sense. I would also argue that using commonsense in applying rules/laws is absolutely crucial, otherwise people will be unwilling to tolerate or support the rules in the first place. Misuse of rules is a much bigger threat to the rules than commonsense application ever will be.

well-spoken, james!

and lets not forget that it was Sir Nick who assured me that if i ever called every foot fault i saw he would do his utmost to see i was banned from the pdga!

I think it's like one of those scenarios where you don't get penalized twice.

If you threw a disc ob and it got stuck above 2 meters, would you take 2 penality strokes?

Of course not

i agree, totally absurd. kicking your bag and discs falling out is no more projecting them than if you drop one while putting it away and it rolls more than 2 meters.



Does anyone think that a dropped disc that rolls over 2m is a practice throw also? Did the player project the disc downward or was it gravity?

Rhett,

the only problem with that is that you could interrept the towel as an artificial device and according to 802.04 forever more you would get 2 strokes anytime two or more people, or the TD caught you with a towel /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif


I disagree. The discs were projected as well as the bag.

By that logic I could wrap a towel around a driver on a windy day, grip only the towel, and then project "the towel" down the fairway to get a read on the wind.

The bag strap gets caught on his foot and swings up and bashes him in the face (absolute comedy if I have ever witnessed it before)...With the bag attacking him and me and the other guy on the card laughing hysterically his anger grew even more fierce... He swipes at the bag as it hits his face and throws it about 20 feet...Upon which (get ready for more comedy) 3 discs roll out of his bag, down a hill and into an OB creek.



Assuming the swipe was with his hand then he DID throw the bag and every disc inside it. The kicking is not what projected the discs it was his hand. So he threw all the discs which would be a stroke for each one. And a courtesy warning for the kick. Then if he climbed in the water and threw his discs back up to the bank or his bag he would get practice throw stroke for each of those too.

The question i have is: How many circles can you fit around your score in those little bitty boxes you have to write in on the card?

the only problem with that is that you could interrept the towel as an artificial device and according to 802.04 forever more you would get 2 strokes anytime two or more people, or the TD caught you with a towel /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif


The towel was only there to help keep me from getting blisters.

Assuming the swipe was with his hand then he DID throw the bag and every disc inside it. The kicking is not what projected the discs it was his hand.


There is a reference above to the Rules Q&A on this website in which the PDGA Rules Commitee has ruled that you can, in fact, throw a disc with your foot.

From the glossary of the rules: "Practice Throw: During a round, the projection of a disc of a distance greater than two meters, or of any distance toward a target, intentional or not..."

It's OK to project AWAY from the target? :confused:

Either way it doesn't even apply to this scenerio. Clearly it was his "swipe" that projected the discs which is equal to throwing a disc up to your face(not a penalty) and then slapping it forward (penalty).

From the glossary of the rules: "Practice Throw: During a round, the projection of a disc of a distance greater than two meters, or of any distance toward a target, intentional or not..."

It's OK to project AWAY from the target?




You missed the "OR" part

And yes it is ok to prject a disc away from the target as long as it doesnt go 2-meters or more

"Target" means basket. We've been through all this before. "Intent" was to stop people from putting into the chains while waiting to tee off.

Kicking the bag to project the discs could be interpreted as using an artificial device (bag) per 802.04 because it artificially lengthens the players throwing lever (foot). The RC considers foot tosses legal throws (I've seen an armless guy throw that way).

So, if those are actually counted as practice throws, not only is the bag illegal but everyone else would have to leave their bags in the car and carry their discs so they weren't carrying an artificial device. And thus we get to the absurdity of calling those kicked discs in the bag practice throws. Otherwise, all bags are illegal. If I ever get called on that, I'll make everyone carry their discs.

I'm reading all this as I can vent my anger on a disc, as long as it is AWAY from the target/basket/polehole. Natch, that could/should be a courtesy violation, but not a practice throw.

Another dead thread! ;)

Chuck,

do the rules say you can't use an artificial device or you can't carry it? Frankly I like the notion of two strokes per disc: one for practice and one for an artificial throwing device. :D

Some have used the argument that rules are rules even when they result in an absurdity. Personally I like a common sense approach. I would vote for a courtesy violation. Repeat performances would cause me to consider probation.

802.04 B says the 2-throw (not stroke) penalty is for either using or carrying the device.

If the distance is less than 2 meters, it must be towards a target, if it is greater than 2 meters, it does not matter.


During a round, the projection of a disc of a distance greater than two meters, or of any distance toward a target, intentional or not,

I'm reading all this as I can vent my anger on a disc, as long as it is AWAY from the target/basket/polehole. Natch, that could/should be a courtesy violation, but not a practice throw.

you are saying THE target, but the rule says A target. big difference!!!

THE target might be the one you just finished, or the next one you are playing. A target means ANY target. this pretty much means you cant throw any distance in any direction.

You mean there are targets everywhere and I still having trouble hitting them. :p

ah, james, you're pretty good at hitting them. you need to brag more :D

802.04 B says the 2-throw (not stroke) penalty is for either using or carrying the device.

Interesting that you conveniently neglected to include the part 802.04.B that says, "[an artificial device] that is determined by the director to violate section 802.04.A.," Chuck. Not deliberately trying to misrepresent the rule, are you?

Does anyone think that a dropped disc that rolls over 2m is a practice throw also? Did the player project the disc downward or was it gravity?

A dropped disc that rolls over 2m is considered a throw. It's been called in the past (at the USDGC (http://www.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?Board=Rules%20&amp;%20Standards&amp;Number=14 645&amp;Searchpage=1&amp;Main=14645&amp;Search=true&amp;#Post14645 ). for example; also, I saw it called at the 2002 Am. Dogwood Crosstown; see also Dave Dunipace's comments quoted in post below), and will be called in the future. So, yes, a dropped disc that rolls over 2m without changing the lie is a practice throw.

you are saying THE target, but the rule says A target. big difference!!!

THE target might be the one you just finished, or the next one you are playing. A target means ANY target. this pretty much means you cant throw any distance in any direction.

Sandalman,
That's the way I originally interpreted it; however, this post (http://www.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?Board=Rules%20&%20Standards&Number=18079&Searchpage=0&Main=18079&Search=true&#Post18079) by Dave Dunipace demonstrates that that is not how the committee that originally wrote the rule intended "target" to be understood. Further down in the thread, Dave mentions a discussion within the RC to clarify what is and what is not a target, but I'm not aware of any formal clarification or definition being issued.

With Dave's comments on the original RC's intent re: "target," and in the absence of definitive guidance from subsequnet RCs, I'm inclined to issue a friendly reminder for the first questionable toss, a "I really don't want to have to stroke you, but if you do that again, I'm going to have to call it" on the second, and call it on all subsequent questionable tosses.

Apropos some of the issues raised in this discussion, in the thread "Is this a practice throw," Dave Dunipace wrote:
Sandalman, I can't say you are wrong, and I do agree that making exceptions is dangerous. I'm just saying that I wouldn't have stroked him. I could see how an official might, and thus my advice about the water bottle. I have no problem stroking or DQing someone if I think they are cheating or playing incorrectly after a warning. I have retrieved lost discs and thrown them to other players. Usually I will do it left handed or with some shot I don't use. If someone wants to be anal, I will get a stroke. I don't think I'm cheating, or getting in any practice strokes. My point is the spirit of the game. You could stroke someone when they mark a missed putt, pick up their putter and accidently drop it in front of them. Strictly speaking, that is a penalty. I would never stroke anyone for it. On the other hand, if someone were touching their mini with their foot, and I had warned them, I would have no problem with it as they are not having to pay attention to their foot placement and everyone else is. Sometimes, you have to make judgement calls. Tossing your disc up in the air a very short distance and catching it, is not illegal. Throwing your disc into your bag from less than 2 meters is not illegal as long as it doesn't distract or annoy anyone, and you are not standing on your lie. You can practice putting all round long, as long as your putts are not toward the basket you are playing, are not over 2 meters, you are not on your lie, and you are not distracting or annoying someone. Some would say these are loopholes, but some would say go for it.



Later in the thread, Rhett proposed the following additions/revision to the rulebook:
Glossary Item:

Current Lie: The spot on the playing surface that the player takes their stance, in accordance with the rules. Before a hole is started, the current lie is the teepad or teeing area of the hole. After the initial throw for the hole, the current lie is no longer the teepad or teeing area but the spot defined by the rules in accordance with the resting position of the initial throw.

80x.xx Throws and Practice Throws
A. The projection of a disc any distance from the current lie constitutes a throw.

B. Practice throw: any projection of a disc that is not from the current lie, with the exception of 80x.xx(C), is a practice throw. A penalty of one stroke shall be assessed for each practice throw during a round, with no warning. Throws that are re-thrown in accordance with the rules are not practice throws. Provisional throws made pursuant to 803.00 C(3) are not practice throws.

C. A player may drop a disc to the ground or toss a disc to their bag provided the disc does not travel more than two meters. A disc that travels more than two meters, regardless of intent, shall be considered a Practice Throw and penalized accordingly.

Doesn't have to be 200 pages. We probably use this much wordage already covering this issue. In my version, however, dropping that extra disc off the teepad less than 2 meters would constitute your drive. (You projected the disc from your current lie. At least it's clear.) Simply step off the teepad, drop your extra disc, and step back on.

In light of the fact that there's a new Rulebook in the works, and the fact that we're debating some of the same issues that were being debated in 2002, it's worth considering something like Rhett's proposal for inclusion in the Rulebook.

determined by the director to violate section 802.04.A.



Ross' question was whether just using or actually carrying an artificial device was a violation. I simply cited the rule.

As far as the bag, the TD would have what basis to deny that the bag was an artificial device that was an extension to a player's lever when used that way? It meets the criteria and it launches discs in volume. Players carry digital cameras to take pictures. I can use the viewfinder to estimate distances by seeing how big the basket is in the frame. I might use rangefinders simply as binoculars to see where a hole is located or to do bird watching. What's the rationale for which items are illegal and which are not other than rangefinders are specifically prohibited in the rule?

Chuck, I used to think that you were for clarifying the rules here on the message board. But it seems you just enjoy watching the fray, after of course you do a little whipping.

So far, you have only added confusion to what has otherwise been a pretty good rules discussion.

Presumably, practice throws only apply to PDGA legal discs?
No one would claim bits of grass thrown in the air that travel more than 2m are practice throws, but how about a mini? I've often seen players miss a 10' putt then slam their mini into the basket in annoyance, is that a practice throw?

How about if I get a regular putter, cut a hole in the flight plate to make it illegal, can I now use that to practice putt whilst waiting to tee off?

All hypothetical, I have no intention of doing any of this...

This thread is way to anal.

Chuck, I used to think that you were for clarifying the rules here on the message board. But it seems you just enjoy watching the fray, after of course you do a little whipping. So far, you have only added confusion to what has otherwise been a pretty good rules discussion.



It's your opinion that this is a pretty good rules discussion. It shows how futile strict interpretation of the rules can be without some common sense. While you can try to codify the rules as best as possible, human judgment is still needed and I hope it always will be. All of the Rules Q&A responses shows this to be true along with the fact that even ball golf needs rules updates and (common sense) rulings after 400 years. There are those on here showing some common sense and others trying to squeeze divine guidance by parsing the words to their rhetorical ends.

:)


the only problem with that is that you could interrept the towel as an artificial device and according to 802.04 forever more you would get 2 strokes anytime two or more people, or the TD caught you with a towel /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif


The towel was only there to help keep me from getting blisters.

and does not go further than 2 meters.....


I'm reading all this as I can vent my anger on a disc, as long as it is AWAY from the target/basket/polehole. Natch, that could/should be a courtesy violation, but not a practice throw.

Another dead thread! ;)

So does all this mean that if anyone places their bag inbetween them and the target and lets go of it before the bag touches the ground they should get a penalty stroke for every disc in their bag?

Also, since bags aren't normally considered illegal artificial throwing devices, but having a disc in a bag when it is thrown counts as a throw I could take a small bag, put just my putter in it and swing it around my head at the basket and get the whole bag to stick in the chains and not get a penalty? If bags aren't illegal to carry then they can't be illegal throwing devices. If throwing a bag counts as throwing all the discs inside then this seems like it would be OK.

Chuck, I used to think that you were for clarifying the rules here on the message board. But it seems you just enjoy watching the fray, after of course you do a little whipping. So far, you have only added confusion to what has otherwise been a pretty good rules discussion.



It's your opinion that this is a pretty good rules discussion. It shows how futile strict interpretation of the rules can be without some common sense. While you can try to codify the rules as best as possible, human judgment is still needed and I hope it always will be. All of the Rules Q&amp;A responses shows this to be true along with the fact that even ball golf needs rules updates and (common sense) rulings after 400 years. There are those on here showing some common sense and others trying to squeeze divine guidance by parsing the words to their rhetorical ends.



Kudos, and by the way, I'm stroking (throwing?) you for carrying that disc throwing device on your shoulder. :D

Hey Dixon �

To answer your hypothetical question in red: The disc thrown in anger is a practice throw. Where a practice throw flies or comes to rest is immaterial unless it becomes a courtesy issue.

For your funny situation, I believe y�all ruled correctly. 803.00 B � Practice Throws talks about a player who throws a practice throw with a disc. Your buddy did not throw a disc. He threw his bag which contained discs.

I can not disagree with some of the literal interpretations of the glossary definition of Practice Throw that have been presented upthread. But when rules sections conflict or interpretations differ, 803.00 E indicates that the issue should be decided in accordance with fairness or a logical extension of the principles embodied in the rules. Assessing a practice throw for throwing a bag of discs seems neither fair nor logical.

Your buddy�s situation highlights a shortcoming in our rules: The absence of �intent.� Golf�s rules are replete with intent. I believe the considered use of �intent� in our rulebook would help avoid some of our rules issues.



Take care,
Harold

determined by the director to violate section 802.04.A.



Ross' question was whether just using or actually carrying an artificial device was a violation. I simply cited the rule.

No, you didn't: you simply cited PART of the rule. The rule does not prohibit using or carrying an artificial device, per se; it prohibits using or carrying an artificial device that is determined by the director to violate section 802.04.A.

It's your opinion that this is a pretty good rules discussion. It shows how futile strict interpretation of the rules can be without some common sense. While you can try to codify the rules as best as possible, human judgment is still needed and I hope it always will be. All of the Rules Q&A responses shows this to be true along with the fact that even ball golf needs rules updates and (common sense) rulings after 400 years. There are those on here showing some common sense and others trying to squeeze divine guidance by parsing the words to their rhetorical ends.



I think Chucks points are valid. Perhaps to subtle for some ;) ? Here's my take.

Ironically, it has to do with intention, like so much of life...

Are you looking for problems?

Or are you looking for solutions?

If some one in your group misses a short putt, gets upset and throws another disc, that could be a problem. Courtesey, practice throw, call it what you want. It is a practice throw, but in mid round, I'd be more concerned about the courtesey. I might even waive the first one with a warning if I don't know the person to know better. If it happens again, stroke away.

But, if some in my group accidentally drops there bag, and a disc of two roll 10 feet down a hill?

I'm not calling that. There was no intention to cheat or create an unfair advantage. It was just an accident. If you trip and drop a couple discs, you should hope that your group is humane with you.

So often you see people going well out of there way (particularly AMs) to look for any little infraction. They don't think you can win with their disc skills alone, so they nit-pic or use "gamesmanship" to try and beat their opponent in some other way. That to me dispalys poor intention and bad sportsmanship. It's called a hollow victory.

It's circular in that if you spend all of your time trying to catch the people in your group cheating, well? no wonder you can't win on your skill alone, and your game is not progressing. Your to worried about other peoples game and not about your own enough to improve it.


This is what a winners attitude looks like:

I will win playing my own game, in a fair and courteous manner, even if the people play against bend the rules, karma will serve them, and I will beat the anyway with honor and integrity. My job is to play my game the best way I know how.


Here's what a hollow victory look like:

I won because two of the guys in my group fell down a ravine and couldn't finish. The other guy tripped over a piece of barbed-wire and spilled his whole bag, So I stoked him for each of his 17 discs, his towel, mini and the bag itself. I won, even though he was beating me by 9 strokes with 3 holes to go before he tripped. :o

Which guy would you rather be? :cool:

I would want to be guy #2 cause that would be some funny sheeot to see :D

This discussion is absurd.

Section A of the rule does indeed prohibit using an artificial device per se because it says "shall not use". The determination by the director is only required for the application of a penalty. Section A should be amended to say "shall not use or carry" so that it agrees with Section B.

Stroking someone for an accidentally dropped disc that rolls more than two meters is not fair play. Would you invoke the courtesy rule for littering if I set my drink cup from McDonald's on the ground before each throw?

This discussion is absurd.

I would want to be guy #2 cause that would be some funny sheeot to see


That's called Schadenfreude

Taking pleasure in other peoples misfortune, and it's an ugly human charchteristic.

Some people get ahead by building themselevs up, others by knocking other people down.

The former is a benefit to themsleves and their society, while the latter is a detriment and a liability to evenryone around them.

The discussion may be absurd, but no more so than the people who love rules a little too much :p

Chuck,

I was referring to the confusion from trying to lable the bag an artificial device, and then expounding on that to call everyone who had a bag for it.

The discussion about what is or is not a practice throw was, IMHO, progressing along quite nicely prior to that. Great points about what makes sense versus the reality of consulting the rule book and looking at what is written were being made.

Perhaps a new thread would be a better place to explore the legality of carrying your discs in a bag that could be used as a sling to propel discs down the course.

OMG

A bag that can be used to sling discs? Serriously? Now you're going to worry about that?

Let it go man, and go work on some thing that will actually help, like your short game. :D

Who are you talking to John? The "bag sling" is what Chuck posted when I said he was juts trying to confuse things.

It shows how futile strict interpretation of the rules can be without some common sense

how can there be "strict" interpretation if "common sense" is involved? one man's common sense is another man's idiocy - hence a disc 50' up in a tree can now considered as good as one leaning on the pole.

i would change your sentence to read "It shows how futile consistent application of the rules can be when they are written with so much ambiguity"

That's called Schadenfreude

Taking pleasure in other peoples misfortune, and it's an ugly human charchteristic.



Well, I am an ugly human :D Which I also find funny ;)

One strke for erey disc in the bag, one for every disc that went OB, a strok for missplayed lie, and one for a courtacy violation. he plays th edisc from the water.

I believe that he should not have been stroked for any of the discs. By the rules, he should have been dq'd

804.05 DISQUALIFICATION & SUSPENSION A. A player may be disqualified by the director for meeting any of the necessary conditions of disqualification as set forth in the rules, or for any of the following:
(1) Unsportsmanlike conduct, such as; loud cursing, throwing things in anger (other than discs in play), or overt rudeness to anyone present.

Clearly his bag and the discs in it were not the disc in play, it was the putter laying 2 feet from the basket. The fact that the bag traveled a certain distance and three discs rolled out is not pertentent. He threw these items in anger. This is also important to remember if someone is mad at their last hole and they throw their disc into their bag in anger. It does not matter that it was less than 2 meters and was not toward the basket. Anything thrown in anger, except the disc in play, is a DQ offense. If you do not DQ him then you might as well just give him a courtesy warning, which is what I would have done.

Now since someone will say that technically the discs in his bag could be in play, then just throwing the bag would be enough.



During a mini last night, a buddy of mine in his second mini (he's been playing for about a month and the bug has bitten him pretty hard) is fighting to stay under par for the first time ever. He misses about a 10 foot par putt. This puts him at even with 2 holes to go and that he doesn't like. When the putt bounced off the cage the fun began...

...he takes a running kick at his bag sitting about 10 feet in front of him...The bag strap gets caught on his foot and swings up and bashes him in the face (absolute comedy if I have ever witnessed it before)...With the bag attacking him and me and the other guy on the card laughing hysterically his anger grew even more fierce...He swipes at the bag as it hits his face and throws it about 20 feet...Upon which (get ready for more comedy) 3 discs roll out of his bag, down a hill and into an OB creek.

We administered no punishment, primarily because we were laughing too hard, but also because his score was pretty irrelevant at this point. As I was re-telling this story to my wife she asks a question that I haven't thought about and didn't quite know the answer to.

What I am really interested in is if you throw a disc in anger and it goes OB, <font color="red"> do you take a stroke for throwing the disc and then a penalty stroke for going OB? What lie do you then play from, the one in the creek or the one sitting 2 feet from the basket after bouncing off the cage? </font> You guys can debate what my friend's actual score would have been but the questions in red are the ones that I am really interested in. Thanks for your help DGRZ's.

Section A of the rule does indeed prohibit using an artificial device per se because it says "shall not use". The determination by the director is only required for the application of a penalty. Section A should be amended to say "shall not use or carry" so that it agrees with Section B.

The issue isn't what Section A prohibits, it's what Section B prohibits.

Go back and read the related posts, Mike.

What is absurd is Chuck's contention that carrying a bag is illegal because bags can be considered artificial devices.

Lyle Ross responded by asking:
do the rules say you can't use an artificial device or you can't carry it?



Chuck responded:
802.04 B says the 2-throw (not stroke) penalty is for either using or carrying the device.


That response is, at best, misleading, because it implies that 802.04.B penalizes the mere carrying of ANY artificial device, rather than penalizing the carrying artificial devices determined by the TD to violate Section A. So the ONLY way 802.04.B can support Chuck's contention that using or carrying a bag is illegal is if a TD determines that a bag violates 802.04.A.

My contention goes back to those who feel discs are projected as practice throws by kicking the bag more than 2m or tipping it over and having discs roll out more than 2m away. If the discs coming out of the bag are ruled as practice throws then the bag should be ruled an illegal artificial device. Common sense (Harold) rules that these are not practice throws and thus we can all rest easy that our bags are not illegal devices to project discs.

For those curious about the practice throw rule, it's my understanding it was put in there because players could learn about the wind effects by tossing additional throws for practice. Whereas practice shots near the green in BG are allowed if there's no following group, apparently because players won't learn anything about how their ball will behave on the grass on the next hole.

My contention goes back to those who feel discs are projected as practice throws by kicking the bag more than 2m or tipping it over and having discs roll out more than 2m away. If the discs coming out of the bag are ruled as practice throws then the bag should be ruled an illegal artificial device. Common sense (Harold) rules that these are not practice throws and thus we can all rest easy that our bags are not illegal devices to project discs.

Regardless of the presenting issue, 802.04.B does NOT support your contention, and your mis-citation of it was misleading.

Chuck, the practice throws and putts were dealt with separately. No practice throws from the lie was the first of the two rules. In other words, no mulligans. The second rule was the no putting or practice throws away from the lie. These throws were thought to be distacting to others playing. Even when the rules committee (not the present body) was petitioned to allow putting between holes, it was still disallowed because of the distraction of the chain noise for others in play. The no practice from lie rule was pre 1978. The no practice throws from anywhere was about 1983 I believe. Stork might know that date better.

[/QUOTE]No, you didn't: you simply cited PART of the rule. The rule does not prohibit using or carrying an artificial device, per se; it prohibits using or carrying an artificial device that is determined by the director to violate section 802.04.A.

[/QUOTE]

Your post says "the rule" not "Section B of the rule". Besides, Section B does not prohibit anything. That's the section that describes the penalties. Section A lists that which is prohibited.

Your insinuation that I didn't read the posts is rude.