Rec golfer here.

Is turning your disc over towards the hole (thus simulating using a mini) an acceptable form of marking your lie? From what I've read, this is a no-no in tourny play. In tourny play, if you want to use the disc on the ground again immediately after throwing it, do you HAVE to use a mini?

Just curious.

No. Yes.

No. Yes.

Just 'cuz I'm feeling cantankerous ...

flipping a thrown disc to use as a marker is not acceptable in PDGA-sanctioned tournament play; it may be acceptable in non-PDGA-sanctioned tournament play: ask the TD for clarification. The use of a mini is required in PDGA-sanctioned tournament play when one uses the thrown disc on the succeeding throw; it may be required in non-PDGA-sanctioned tournament play: ask the TD for clarification.

:D

wow felix that was complicated...

Basically, you have two options. You don't have to mark your disc, but if you do this, you can't use the disc that is on the ground.

Or, you can mark the disc and use any disc you want.

Usually, in a fairway when I'm making an approach, I don't mark my disc unless it helps with my lie (i.e. a bush or a tree behind the disc and I want to get as far from it as possible) or unless I want to use that disc again.

wow felix that was complicated...

Basically, you have two options. You don't have to mark your disc, but if you do this, you can't use the disc that is on the ground.

Or, you can mark the disc [<font color="red"> with a mini </font>] and use any disc you want.

Usually, in a fairway when I'm making an approach, I don't mark my disc unless it helps with my lie (i.e. a bush or a tree behind the disc and I want to get as far from it as possible) or unless I want to use that disc again.

:D

After reading all of that I'm confused.

The actual rule is easier to understand than the above.


803.02.A After each throw, the thrown disc must be left where it came to rest until the lie is established by the placing of a marker. This can be done by placing a mini marker disc on the playing surface between the hole and the disc, directly in line with the hole, touching the thrown disc. A player may instead choose, without touching or repositioning the thrown disc, to use the thrown disc as the marker. The marker may not be moved until the throw is released. A marker inadvertently moved prior to the throw shall be returned to its correct location.



Flipping the disc is never acceptable in sanctioned tournament play.

The previously thrown disc may be used as a marker if it is resting on the playing surface and is not moved. The rule says you may not touch the disc, but other rules require that you positivly identify the disc before playing the lie. That usually requires that the disc be turned over. A catch 22.

If the thrown disc is not resting on the playing surface in bounds, it can not be used for a marker and a mini marker must be used to mark the lie. (see 803.02.B)

Do you have to use a mini in a sanctioned event or can you use a stick, rock, etc.

A. Mini marker discs shall be used to mark a player's lie as required by these rules. Mini marker discs must have a diameter of between 7 and 15 centimeters and a height not exceeding 3 centimeters.

So, a flat stone/rock could be used if it wasn't thicker than 3cm (1.2 inch). It doesn't have to be round or under a certain weight like throwing disc specs. I think a hockey puck, and those circular mint or chewing tobacco containers might qualify. A regular CD would qualify as would [plug on]our Highbridge DVD for the Mid-Nationals in its nice clear plastic clamshell container [/plug off] www.gottagogottathrow.com/2005MidNationals.htm (http://www.gottagogottathrow.com/2005MidNationals.htm)

tox, you should use a mini to mark your lie if you want to use the same disc(like MTL, i rarely mark a disc in the fairway unless i need to or i am putting), even when playing casually. it will get you in the correct habit if you want to play tournaments. Mini's are real cheap and there are a large variety of them. if you ask local , he probably has one he would give you. i know i do.

also mini's can be used to play MINI disc golf. they have little mini baskets they use. there are actually alot of those type courses out in lancaster PA, and i believe i heard they were actually going to have MINI disc golf world championships in conjunction with the 05 worlds in PA

The previously thrown disc may be used as a marker if it is resting on the playing surface and is not moved. The rule says you may not touch the disc, but other rules require that you positivly identify the disc before playing the lie. That usually requires that the disc be turned over. A catch 22.

Not if you mark both sides of your disc. :eek:

The previously thrown disc may be used as a marker if it is resting on the playing surface and is not moved. The rule says you may not touch the disc, but other rules require that you positivly identify the disc before playing the lie. That usually requires that the disc be turned over. A catch 22.

Not if you mark both sides of your disc. :eek:



brilliant! :eek:

Let's say a disc rolls into the 10 m circle and comes to rest against a large conifer that straddles the painted 10 m line. The disc is essentially standing upright against the trunk, inside the 10 m line, but there is no feasible way to take a stance (excluding putting a finger tip on the trunk and putting with one finger on the tree, and all other points of contact behind your finger...). In this case, it seems reasonable to follow the rules and mark your spot on the far side of the tree, in line with the pin and the original lie.

However, in doing so, you are now physically outside the painted 10-m line. Do you follow the stance rules as if you were still in the 10-m line, since your true "lie" is there? Or can you lean around the tree trunk, take a normal putt, and follow through (falling putt) once the disc has legally been released?

A scenario very similar to this came up last year CA.
Thanks!
Steve

The rules are pretty clear.
The lie is established when it is either marked with a mini marker or it is decided that the thrown disc will be used as a marker disc (803.02.A).
You are not required to use a mini marker unless you are repositioning the lie under the rules (803.02.B).
The distance that matters for the falling putt rule to come into play is from the base of the target to the rear edge of the marker disc (803.03.C)

Where your disc came to rest does not matter,
where you make your stance does not matter,
where you place your marker disc is the deciding factor.

In this scenario (playing behind a trunk of a large tree, which is part of the course, and not a casual object), are you required to use a marker? In my reading of the rule--no, you are not required to do so.

803.02 B. states "A player is only required to mark the lie with a mini marker disc when repositioning the lie under the rules. This includes the following rules: out-of-bounds, disc above the playing surface, lost disc, unsafe lie, relocated for relief, interference, or repositioning the lie within 1 meter of the out-of- bounds line."

I do not believe any of these situations are applicable. The disc is:
1) not OB;
2) not above the playing surface;
3) not lost;
4) not unsafe (e.g., on a cliff edge);
5) not available for relief (i.e. 803.04 A. "Obstacles to a Stance or Throwing Motion: Players must choose a stance which results in the least movement of any part of any obstacle except as allowed for casual obstacles by 803.04 C."; this does not apply since the tree trunk [large in this case!] CANNOT move as a result of the throwing motion). Furthermore, the trunk is not an obstacle to a throwing motion--because the disc is leaning against it, there is physically not enough room to place your foot there (but you could place a finger there...);
6) not the result of intereference; and
7) not the result of re-positioning to be 1 m from the OB line.

If the above is true, then you are not required to use a mini, and hence your lie is marked by the disc leaning up against the tree trunk, which is in the 10 m ring, and hence your putt is subject to the rules that apply within the 10 m ring even though you will be putting from outside the ring on the far side of the tree.

Please correct my misunderstandings and thanks in advance!
Steve

Ok, maybe I should have looked a bit harder. I found this:

"Rule Question: Obstacle to Stance and Flight Path
Question: Steve throws his drive under a large fallen tree branch. The branch is clearly dead and unattached from the tree it formerly came from. Steve knows that he can normally move casual obstacles that interfere with his stance, throwing motion, and/or run-up under PDGA rule 803.04c2 and 803.04c3. However, the branch is quite large, and part of the branch lies between Steve's lie and the hole. Can Steve legally move this branch?
Applicable Rules:
803:04 Obstacles and Relief

Answer: No. It is the interpretation of the rules committee that PDGA rule 803.04c(1) takes precedence here. No relief is granted from casual obstacles between the lie and the hole. Steve needs to avoid throwing next to such obstacles if he doesn't want to have to negotiate them! If the branch is such that Steve cannot take a stance, then Steve can relocate his lie to the CLOSEST point of relief on the line of play that is no more than 5 meters away from the original lie with no penalty. Steve could also declare an unsafe lie under 803.05. This ruling also applies, even if the obstacle in question is NOT in the flight path between the lie and the hole. Steve is not allowed to move any obstacle that is totally or partially between his lie and the hole.

Yours Sincerely,
The PDGA Rules Committee

Dr. Rick Voakes
Harold Duvall
Joe Garcia
John Chapman
Conrad Damon
Carlton Howard"

Which rule allows you to move backwards, up to 5 m away, from an object on the course that physically prevents you from taking a legal stance where your disc landed (e.g., it slid under a felled tree trunk and you cannot stick your foot within 30 cm of the back edge)?

Similarly, your disc lands 2 m into a thick, tall clump of some plant with thorns. It's not really unsafe--it will hurt to get in there, but you'll live--do you get relief with no penalty, and move the disc to the closest "safe" lie not >5 m behind the disc's position?
Thanks,
Steve

Which rule allows you to move backwards, up to 5 m away, from an object on the course that physically prevents you from taking a legal stance where your disc landed (e.g., it slid under a felled tree trunk and you cannot stick your foot within 30 cm of the back edge)?

The up to 5m relief is for casual obstacles to stance or throwing motion, which are specifically limited to the casual water, loose leaves or debris, broken branches no longer connected to a tree, motor vehicles, harmful insects or animals, players' equipment, spectators, or any item or area specifically designated by the director before the round (803.02.C), not for non-casual obstacles. (Note that you do not get to move backward up to 5m; you must relocate to the "nearest lie which is no closer to the hole, on the line of play, and not more than five meters from the origina lie.") So if the tree is a casual obstacle, you may relocate the lie without penalty; if it's not a casual obstacle (it's not unless the TD declares it to be one), you cannot relocate without incurring a penalty throw.


Similarly, your disc lands 2 m into a thick, tall clump of some plant with thorns. It's not really unsafe--it will hurt to get in there, but you'll live--do you get relief with no penalty, and move the disc to the closest "safe" lie not >5 m behind the disc's position?

Only if the TD has designated the plant a casual obstacle. (It does occasionally happen: at the 2004 Dogwood Crosstown, the TD declared casual relief from the mounds of Andean Pampas Grass on hole 3 at Zebulon.)


Summary of Rule Changes
803.00 The principle that the game is based on the theory of "playing the disc where it winds up" is underscored. Players should essentially expect no relief in most situations. If is was there before you threw, then you should have avoided landing near it.

"E. If a large solid obstacle prevents a player from taking a legal stance within 30 centimeters directly behind the marker disc, the player shall take his or her stance immediately behind that obstacle on the line of play. The player must comply with all the provisions of 803.03 A other than being within 30 centimeters directly behind the marker disc."

I'm not trying to be a pain here, but I just don't see how the rules cover the situation I described. The tree is a large solid obstacle, and since the disc is leaning up against it, you take a stance behind it--there is no mention of distance--and there is no directive to mark this new lie. Nor do you receive a penalty stroke.

Thus, you putt from behind the tree--the disc leaning on the tree is still marking your lie--and even though you are physically outside of the 10 m ring (per my earlier description of the scenario), your lie is inside of it, so if you make a falling putt, you get a warning (or penalty stroke if you've been warned already).

Any dissenting opinions?
Thanks,
Steve

I didn't address the point of where your lie was, only that if you used a mini to mark behind the solid obstacle then yor lie would be outside of the circle and not a "putt". If the tree was small enough that you could take a legal stance behind the tree (within 30cm of the back edge of the thrown disc) then the throw would be a "putt" and the falling putt rule would be in effect.

You did not describe the trunk of the tree so either situation may have existed. Also note that it is not up to the player to decide if they want to mark in front or behind the obstacle, they are allowed to mark behind the obstacle only if a legal stance can not be taken.

Thanks for that clarification. On some course I play on, there are park restrooms, and only the roof of such a structure is considered OB. Let's assume such a building is a rectangle, 20 ft wide and 40 ft long. A roller ends up leaning against the "forward" wall (20 ft end, center of wall, wall closest to hole), leaving 4 cm between the leading edge of the disc touching the ground and the base of the vertical wall it is resting against.

If you use a mini to mark the lie, you have 4 cm of space. No one can physically fit their foot into that space. Since it is also in the center of the 20 ft wall, it is not physically possible to have your main point of contact behind the mini marker (i.e. you have to stand behind it, and even considering the arc relative to the basket, you cannot stand/crouch there without having one point of contact closer to the hole than the rear edge of the marker). No legal stance is possible.

Since you cannot take a legal stance, you move backwards in line with the disc/marker (you are not required to use a mini in this case) and the hole, which in this case is parallel to the length of the building, and end up 40 ft back, in the center of the "rear" 20 ft wide wall.

I contend that the legal stance should be taken with one foot touching the rear wall, centered and in line with the disc and the hole. You cannot use a mini on this rear wall; if you want to use a mini to mark your lie, it is acutally 40 ft ahead of you and 4 cm from the forward wall.

This entire fiasco incurs no penalty stroke (but leaves you in an awkward spot for your next shot!).

Thanks,
Steve

It took a while, but I got your point.

The marker stays in front of the obstacle so the putt would always be subject to the falling putt rule.

This based on 803.03.E ... The player must comply with all the provisions of 803.03 A other than being within 30 centimeters directly behind the marker disc.

If the roof is o.b., you can take a meter relief without a penalty perpendicular away from the roof line even if that moves you closer to the basket. That solves that problem. If the building has gables, you may be considerably more than a meter from the wall.

Eaves, not gables. I'm a lawyer, not an architect.

Refer to the Q&amp;A about multiple playing surfaces.

The ground and the roof are stacked playing surfaces with the upper one being OB.


From the Bridge over OB Q&amp;A.
...The IB/OB status of a playing surface is not affected by the OB status of another playing surface above or below it. OB applies only to the playing surface that contains it. Otherwise, a number of non-intuitive rulings result:

{one of the non-intuitive things}... There is an overpass with a street high above a section of the course. The street, of course, is OB. If the plane extends downward, then a street-wide chunk of the course below is also OB ....



By this ruling, the IB/OB status of the ground around the building is not effected by the IB/OB status of the roof.

Correct.

But if the building itself is OB then you could get 1 meter relief from the outer most part of the building. In my experience that is usually how TDs mark buildings, not wanting folks to have to play from under or inside the building.

True, but that is not how it was described in this scenario
and only the roof of such a structure is considered OB.

True, but that is not how it was described in this scenario
and only the roof of such a structure is considered OB.





Correct.

But if the building itself is OB then you could get 1 meter relief from the outer most part of the building. In my experience that is usually how TDs mark buildings, not wanting folks to have to play from under or inside the building.

We could do this all day...

Only if you insist on providing alternate scenarios to the one originally posted. :D

And yes, you are correct that in most cases it is the building that is OB, not just the roof of the building. And in that case you would get up to a meter relief in which to take a legal stance.

I want to change the scenario. The building roof is no longer OB. Instead, only the 2 m rule applies since the roof is >2 m.

Once a disc is on the roof and above 2 m, where do you mark the lie? I assume it is in the "line of play" and extends backwards until you hit the playing surface, and you would get no 1 m of relief from the wall of the building since the roof is no longer OB. You also get one penalty stroke.

Thanks,
Steve