I hope this is not one of those "duh" questions, but even if it is, I'm a rec competitor and have a lot to learn. I have noticed in the past year and a half that I have gotten serious about this game that the better a lot of players get the more they start switching to more overstable discs. Granted that's not all players, but I definitely do see that kind of trend. I have discussed it with one of my Advanced Am friends and he seems to notice it too, but doesn't really see why that is either. He sticks with his Tbirds and Orcs.Is there something to this? Do overstable discs add new flavor distance or what. Or am I just seeing things. What are the advantages to more overstable discs that my Flashes, crushes, and Valks don't have besides the obvious that they pull left harder? Also I know that a Crush is more overstable than a Flash, but I can make them do close to the same thing. Where do they differ in application? Any light on the subject would be much appreciated. Thanks

Overstability = better predictibility = lower golf scores.

Discs that aren't overstable can be unpredictable, even with good technique. Sometimes you get a lot of turn, sometimes a little, with dramatic differences in where the disc ends up. Compare that to an overstable disc, where you know that it's going to fly straight then hyzer, so you just aim out to the side and let it hyzer in. You're going to get a lot more predictability and accuracy with the overstable disc, and less variability in where the disc ends up.

I have found this as well but I have also found that the players get to a point where they say " Man there are just SOME shots that I cant throw with an overstable disc"" then they start putting flippy discs back in there bag. I was one of those I dont want to throw ANYTHING flippy or understable type cuz untill this year. End of last year I was throwing Z Preds Tsunamis for my drivers and NEVER wanted to change and then I started seeing holes get dueced that I didnt think were possible dueces because I threw overstable and you needed something flippy to hit the right line.

Now I throw 3 Tsunamis and 3 Wildcats for my drivers. And im getting 2s on alot of holes I couldnt get before because I didnt have a flippy disc.

Think about it for a while. Once you get good with the overstable stuff grab some flippy stuff and youll love it :D

There is also the fact the better you get the harder you throw so those under stable disc turn in to rollers and player move to more stable disc.
The lung is right to say that over stable disc are more predictable but as you get better at predicting what a disc will be a player will learn how to throw an understable disc just as well.

Most people throw overstable because they don't have to think about what the disc is going to do.

There is also the fact the better you get the harder you throw so those under stable disc turn in to rollers and player move to more stable disc.




That's kind of the idea I had come up with. In my last tourney I got the opportunity to play some monster holes with some of the pros, and I was amazed at how they would take an overstable disc and rip the living crap out of it. The flight would start out left but pop up flat cruise for forever and a day then finally come back out of it. I just don't have anywhere near the skill to pull that off yet. I still smile when I get good anhyzer to make 350-375. That's where I have been able to utilize an overstable disc outside of lefty shots. I have noticed since I started using an X-step and improving my follow through that my understable discs (Cobra, Express, Stingray) are more unpredictable and turn over more than I want. Does this mean I'll be throwing Monsters and Predators one day? Who knows. IT'll be some kind of "Innocraft" or "Discova" combo. (No offense meant to either hardcore brand fans. ;)

I was a good example of the overstable switch. When I became a little better player I was creating more snap and more speed on the disc. I throw TB's and TL's for my main drives. But for wide open crush shots it's a Valk or a Viking. I have just worked the Valk back into my bag and it fits just fine. To sum up my answer to the question, when you become a better player, I think you have to learn a certain finesse to throw the understable discs. They deffinately have their place in my opinion.

Plus discs with added stability also usually allow uber fast flights...
EXAMPLE: Speed Demon or Flick

Both are F-A-S-T but start off fairly beefy...but beefy is also predictable!!!

P.S.
Go get an Illusion or Spirit...fast, predictable...HUGE! :o:D

This is a great topic. I too recently learned the X step and it has changed my game considerably. Prior to learning the X step I would intentionaly seek out understable discs because they were easier to hyzer flip than the stable or overstable discs. Once I learned the X step it made available to me an entirely new set of discs. I now throw the Valk, even though I know the really big arms consider these flippy. But for me, this disc is easy to hyzer flip and holds the glide really well. I still keep the understable molds though. For some reason they still don't turn into the ground with a strong, flat realease. Instead they start out straight and start tracking right (rhbh) without much a turn, more like a gentle drift. As long as this remains predictable, I'll keep these in the bag.

And yes, the overstable molds are predictable and I'm utilizing them more and more for this very reason. They can still get away from sometimes, though. :(

Overstability = better predictibility = lower golf scores.





I totally agree. I used to throw a lot of flippy stuff and stand it up - I honestly re formatted my throw to throw more overstable stuff and it has really helped my game.

While I still throw Orcs, TL's and LEopards, my overstable Eagle is my primary driver. I like the comfort in knowing that I can throw it as hard as I want and it will go to the left - really helps when I want the 350 - 400 foot D, but still want to place the shot.

Cam Todd told me that the way to really get good at this game is to learn to throw nothing but overstable plastic....

i've been playing for a while now. i play adv. and i've never really got into the overstable thing. maybe because i'm used to playing tighter courses where you can't get that big hyzer to work for you, at least i can't. at my home course there are only 5 or 6 holes that you could do it. i typically throw vikings, tbirds and leopards for my drives, sometimes valkyre and TL. in the wind i'll throw a firebird or heavier tbirds and on occasion a ram. i feel like it takes more thought and planning of your shot to throw 300 - 350 straight or with a little s curve than to grab a overstable disc and just throw it. sure its more predictable but if you can control a less stable disc while throwing hard your scores will improve.

In Kansas where winds are high all the time, overstable discs are a requirement. You can not throw understable discs into a 35 MPH headwind with gusts to 40 MPH.

I once threw a KC max weight Roc 250 ft into the wind to watch it hover over the basket, then fly back towards me over a fence behind me. Colwich KS in late winter, winds were gusting near 50 MPH. I should have thrown a spike hyzer with a z xtreme for that shot. Anything understable that day would have ended up in Nebraska. LOL

I have done the opposite of most of you. You are switching over to overstable discs and i'm switching to flippier discs..

I started playing 2 years ago and within a month i was so hooked i had brand new plastic.. I had Monster, Beasts, Firebirds, ETC..
I was throwing all this overstable stuff and i think it really ruined my game.
I was throwing over 450 then ,but lost that ability suddenly one day and haven't regained it.

I have stopped throwing overstable stuff and have switched to Flippier stuff this year.
I added a beat up gazelle for rollers..
A brand new Champion Leapord for flips.
I carry 2 beat first run buzzz's for my flat/turnover midranges.
and i carry mostly putters because i drive them almost 300.

I feel that becuase i'm learning how to throw understable discs that im throwing much more accurately and just plain out better. I feel better about my game now then i ever have even though my scores haven't directly shown it yet.

I'd rather throw a TL on a dead straight line then throw a Monster/similar overstable on a hyzer the same distance.

-Scott Lewis

P.s. If you're flipping over a Regular Teebird(not TL) then you are doing something wrong. Those discs have no high speed turn. They go straight then left.. Flipping them means you either have a really beat teebird or you have a mechanic problem.

P.s. If you're flipping over a Regular Teebird(not TL) then you are doing something wrong. Those discs have no high speed turn. They go straight then left.. Flipping them means you either have a really beat teebird or you have a mechanic problem.



That's not entirely true. DX T's can be flipped...straight out of the box.

Overstable discs are great for high speed open shots. Getting them to s-curve is the key to distance on the newer high speed drivers. But you need to be able to control both over and understable discs.

Getting too used to throwing constant hyzer shots can weaken your overall game. Learn turnover and anhyzer approaches. Take a fippy midrange throw it with hyzer and let it flip flat and fly straight with no fade.

I learned the hard way. When I started I had a 156 Champion Valk. I saw the big arm guys throwing their discs with lots of power and getting them to s-curve. So that was my goal. Well I broke 400ft within 6 months of ever picking up a golf disc when I tried an Orc. But I lacked any sort of finese game and could not hit a 20ft gap in trees to save my life.

I started to use a seperate bag and discs for practice at my home course. The most stable disc I have is a beat up Orc. The rest of them include an XL, TL, Element, beat up flat roc and a beat up KC roc. There is usually decent 10-12mph wind at our course with alot of distance throws and hyzer shots, with a few strategically planned holes through woods.

Since I started using this understable bag for practice, I have actually gained more control over all of my discs, because I am concentrating on proper release speeds and angles along with judging wind. Instead of just powering through it with a hyzer shot.

Morale........Throw it all and practice it all. Don't get stuck in a rut.

Oh yeah, putt with both over and understable putters. When you play in Bowling Green you will need both, trust me.

Throw OVERSTABLE an get good with it...Don't listen to people who don't know what they're talking about.

I can throw a new TeeBird with hyzer and flip it pretty easily. And I have pretty good mechanics. I think it's something called power.

It is smarter to throw a hyzer over a straight shot. Much more predictable, simpler.

BTW- I throw mostly midrange discs off the tee, so I don't love overstable discs for everything. But on a wide open shot a hyzer is the best shot.

Your disc wants to go left/right (Depending on your throwing arm) so why fight it. If there is a hyzer line, its going to be the higher percentage shot hands down! 400' on a hyzer is WAAAAY more impressive than 400' with an S curve (Cough*ORC*Cough). Learn both for sure, but you gotta be able to nail 350' hyzers as often as Roseanne eats ice cream! :eek:

Just wanted to add that I totaly agree with not falling into the trap of only throwing hyzers (or anhyzers or S turns). I've been throwing the hyzer lately because I just learned that I can with a fair amount of predictability and good results, and it's a shot I didn't have before.

I still don't understand the S turn though. Does hyzer/anhyzer refer strictly to the release angle of the disc or to the disc flight? Or both? I can't seem to throw an anhyzer without noticably altering my swing plane, and when I do get one off they tend to go a lot higher than I'd prefer.

Perhaps the S turn is matter for the "next level" in my throwing career.

changing your throwing plane isn't bad for an annhyzer. most people usually runup from right to left and throw a little higher in their body. if you kept your wrist in the same position as normal but threw from higher in your body the disc would be released on a different angle that would make it turn over.
Do what works for you.
also most annhyzer shots require that you throw higher becuase the disc is diving to the right. if you threw it only a few feet off the ground it wouldn't get very far to the right before hitting the ground.

as long as you can do something and do it consistently i don't see anything wrong with it. People have some weird techniques. just do what you think will work best.

-Scott Lewis

P.s. listen to Roc Steady about the arching the back.. FOrgot to mention that.

For Annie release, you can also arch your back a bit. This will allow you tothrow accross your body closer to what your used to.

Thanks Greatzky and Roc.

You know, I've had no trouble finding video of people "throwing" a disc, but I've seen very little, if any, video of a disc actually flying. Usually they stop the throw technique demo video right after the release. I'd like to see some video of all the ways a disc can fly from start to finish. Even if I'm a year or two away from a certain shot, I'd like to know what's possible.

Don't listen to people who don't know what they're talking about.



Now that is the best piece of advice on this thread!

Thanks for shedding light on the overstable subject for me. We got a little bit off the eqipment topic, but it's all applicable. I'm just the kind of person that tends to question a movement towards something (seeing people move towards overstable discs). I've gotten myself in too much trouble in the past doing something because I see a lot of other people doing it. Ya know the whole jump off a cliff concept. Now I have a better understanding of why these overstable choices occur more often as skill improves. I use my understables just as much as my overstables. They're just not a lot overstable. I used to carry an extreme for some overhand shots, but pulled it out of my bag because I just had less overstable discs that were too crucial to my game and no space. I have no idea where I'm going with this now, but hey I'm no longer a Lurker :D

P.s. If you're flipping over a Regular Teebird(not TL) then you are doing something wrong. Those discs have no high speed turn. They go straight then left.. Flipping them means you either have a really beat teebird or you have a mechanic problem.



I flip Champion Teebirds over without any off-axis torque, and I don't have any more than average power for a decent advanced player. I have 5 different ones, all max weight, and I flip them all. Not hard, and if I give the shot some height they stay pretty straight, but they seem to be more like a -1 or -1/2 in high-speed turn on Innova's scale. They flip for me just like a stable Orc, they just don't travel side to side as much because they are slower. Same basic stability though, at least for me.
No disc is truly a "0" in high speed turn. Spin them hard enough and physics dictates a high speed turn. A max weight Champion FX mold firebird is as close as you get to a "0" in high-speed turn because no human I've seen could actually get this disc to turn from flat. The Teebird is not even close to this level of high-speed stability.
Just because discs don't fly the same for other people as they do for you doesn't necessarily mean they have a mechanic problem. If you used to throw stable discs 450' and now can't even throw less stable discs that distance I would seriously question your own mechanics. Throwing a TL dead straight is nice, but that's not going to happen when there is any wind. Hyzer flips in the wind are touchy business, I'd rather throw a more stable disc flat, it is far more predictable.

I wish I could throw overstable stuff. Schwebby says that if I could throw something more stable than a dragon, I could be good.

A max weight Champion FX mold firebird is as close as you get to a "0" in high-speed turn because no human I've seen could actually get this disc to turn from flat.



Ever throw a Speed Demon? They make FXs look like Valks :eek:

But I get your point though....and I totally agree...in the wind, low flat shots are the key...thus so many Orcs going OB this last weekend where I played...people had NO clue how to fight the wind...it was really funny though! :D

Some of the info. on this thread suggest that; more power will equal more distance and you must throw more stable discs so you don't overturn understable plastic. Now obviously a more stable disc will be more predictable but for max D a less stable disc wins out. Just look at all the distance records; XL, XS, Orc I think, and currently the Valkyrie.

discspeed: i do question my own mechanics. I do so everyday. When i was throwing like that i had no idea what i was doing. at least now i understand a lot more about what discs do and waht you need to do to accomplish something.
I should say that Champion teebirds are stable... and moreso 11x teebirds in max weight.
As for DX/pro/CE i'm not sure how they hold up, but i don't see any reason why a brand new 11x teebird would flip. they are very stable even for "big arms".

-Scott Lewis

Some of the info. on this thread suggest that; more power will equal more distance and you must throw more stable discs so you don't overturn understable plastic. Now obviously a more stable disc will be more predictable but for max D a less stable disc wins out. Just look at all the distance records; XL, XS, Orc I think, and currently the Valkyrie.


I'm not sure the orc has held any world distance records.

I wish I could throw overstable stuff. Schwebby says that if I could throw something more stable than a dragon, I could be good.



No, you couldn't.

Some of the info. on this thread suggest that; more power will equal more distance and you must throw more stable discs so you don't overturn understable plastic. Now obviously a more stable disc will be more predictable but for max D a less stable disc wins out. Just look at all the distance records; XL, XS, Orc I think, and currently the Valkyrie.


I'm not sure the orc has held any world distance records.



Nope...and it must also be pointed out that Big D contests are usually throwing with STRONG and OPTIMAL wind mostly taking advatage of a discs superior glide. Golf D and Comp D are 2 completely different things.

Golf D and Comp D are 2 completely different things.



You forgot about message board D. Some people do not know really how far 400ft is, and most are approximating on their distance anyway.

The Orc is a great golf distance driver. Just stable enough to handle being thrown exessively hard, but will still flex out really well. I use DX Orcs as distance competition drivers because I cannot get the Valks to ride that huge sweeping anhyzer like they throw in Big D in the Desert. So my competition distance is fairly close but slightly longer then my golf distance.

Some of the info. on this thread suggest that; more power will equal more distance and you must throw more stable discs so you don't overturn understable plastic. Now obviously a more stable disc will be more predictable but for max D a less stable disc wins out. Just look at all the distance records; XL, XS, Orc I think, and currently the Valkyrie.


There is a difference between setting a distance record and making a long controlled golf shot. When I throw for max D I normally throw a used DX beast or a new pro Starfire, but when I'm throwing a 360-400ft golf shot I use a CFR starfire, a Tee-bird, or a brand new DX beast. The difference is when they throw for distance records it out in the desert with strong tail wind (which makes a disc more stable) and they don't have to throw accurately, but when you play golf there is a target and you have to throw your disc to it so a predictable disc makes it a good golf disc.

I think the Big D in the Desert is relegated to the same conditions that we play in every day; whatever wind they happen to get on that particular day. It states head or tailwind and how hard its blowing as part of the results and this often affects the reults as well. The really overstable discs just don't get the same amount of glide that a less stable one does and if you use the proper technique it doesn't matter how much power or armspeed you generate. Some of those guys could probably throw a putter 400+. WOW, all this talk makes me feel like a real noodle-arm! :p

I agree with you on the predictability of overstable plastic which is why I stated that in my orignal comment. You would have to have a very wide open hole to get max D from an XS, Valk., etc...I was just stating that with the correct release and conditions a less stable disc will go further, quite a bit further.

You forgot about message board D. Some people do not know really how far 400ft is, and most are approximating on their distance anyway.




There is no such thing as message board D. I know I can throw my 180g Lightning #2 Putter 700' every time, perfectly straight.

Of course, that doesn't do me any good when the hole is 250' long.

:D:D:D

...and if you believe that pm me for a great deal on some land about 30 miles due west of Holland, Michigan. It will require some "de-watering"...

-DaveB

I wish I could throw overstable stuff. Schwebby says that if I could throw something more stable than a dragon, I could be good.

ThaT could not be more true of a statement, unless you were trying to Eat a Scab. :eek:

I wish I could throw overstable stuff. Schwebby says that if I could throw something more stable than a dragon, I could be good.



No, you couldn't.

Yeah TGB

whats a dragon? is that synonymous to a firebird!! :D

Overstability = better predictibility = lower golf scores.



So you're saying that if all I throw is a Z-Xtreme I will be a top pro? /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[QUOTE]
Overstability = better predictibility = lower golf scores.



I would think that the farther you can throw slower "STABLE " discs the lower your scores, but of course you will still have to make your putts.
BTW Stable mean straight flying! /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Not exactly. But for example your playing and you face a fairly long open hole with a strong headwind. You could throw a Flick/Z Pred/Xtreme/Monster on a hyzer and be confident it won't flip over, however it may come up a little short. Or you could throw a beast/orc/XS because it could get there, but may flip over. Pros will throw the overstable disc while many AMs will throw the stable disc because they need the distance.

i usually throw discs in the 170-172 range..but the other day i found a max weight teebird...i thought it would go really left, but i can get huge distance out of it, it has just a little left fade at the end, and is SUPER predictable....has anyone else found this after throwing a heavier disc of the same modeal? also if i can throw a max teebird, would i be able to throw a max weight Viking for ultralong distance (ive thrown a 171g for HUGE D, but it turns over alot)

My main driver is a Z-Predator but for some reason it just doesn't finish as hard left as it used to(my champ. beast is almost as stable)...I wouldn't think this would just be normal wear, as I have never hit a tree with it, but it is over a year old. That disc is pretty much the only overstable disc in my bag, and I need something that will finish hard left like the pred. did when it was new. Any suggestions on what disc to get? I am looking at a Firebird, Monster, or another Predator. Some have also recomended a Flick, but not sure about that disc.

My main driver is a Z-Predator but for some reason it just doesn't finish as hard left as it used to(my champ. beast is almost as stable)...I wouldn't think this would just be normal wear, as I have never hit a tree with it, but it is over a year old. That disc is pretty much the only overstable disc in my bag, and I need something that will finish hard left like the pred. did when it was new. Any suggestions on what disc to get? I am looking at a Firebird, Monster, or another Predator. Some have also recomended a Flick, but not sure about that disc.



The Spirit or Speed Demon will work, too.

Two posts above. The Teebird is the most predictable disc out there right now.

As for that Z-predator that is straight, never hit a tree. You answered your question about why it is straight. It is a year old. Landing on the ground, and slight warping from the sun or hot trunks can lessen the stability of the disc over time.

Firebird is most like a predator, though not as fast out of the hand so you may not like it as a replacement. The Flick is as fast and as stable as the Predator, but it does not have the same amount of glide. I would stick with the pred.

The Spirit or Speed Demon will work, too.



*This is not a gateway bash*
I used to throw some older G3 and G1 when I was first starting in the sport, and they did not hold up that well, I was wondering if the plastic has improved/changed since then.

yes there plastic is mucho better then what you are reffering to.

The Spirit or Speed Demon will work, too.



*This is not a gateway bash*
I used to throw some older G3 and G1 when I was first starting in the sport, and they did not hold up that well, I was wondering if the plastic has improved/changed since then.



I got an H speed demon about two months ago and am already turning it over. :(

Of course it is beat to hell. I'm thinking Champ Monster next.

You should try an E Spirit.

The NEW Speed demons are almost straight right our of the box if you know how to use them!
We actually retooled the Speed demon and for players with a lot of power it has less resistant to turn but will finish a little more left at the end.
There have only been about a thousand made since the last retooling and most were E and orange!
We are out of the Speed demons right now though and will be for a little while.
You can check some on line vendors, Marshall street, lynx, gotta go goptta throw, disc n dat or discs unlimited.
The E Spirits are now our most overstable high speed drivers and we have plenty ) even in GLOW E!)
For those of you who cant get discs overstable enough we also have some FLAT E Spirits that are SICK.
I have throw one 9 or 10 times straight into a brick wall with almost no sign of wear and they are still the most overstable sdiscs I have ever seen.
I hear of players overhanding these things a really long way!