Scenario: Best shot Doubles. Player A of Team 1 goes into the dookie to play their shot. He doesn't use a marker, just plays the disc where it is. His shot comes to rest just short of the basket. Player B of Team 1 goes into the wasteland and decides, "I want to put a mini down and get the extra 8 plus inches."
Can he do this since his partner determined the lie by not placing a mini?

An argument can be made from the Best Shot doubles rules that they have to play from the same lie. It is not spelled out but it is implied.

Both players throw from each lie (starting with the tee shot), then the team chooses which of the resulting lies to continue play from, until the hole is completed.

A link to Doubles Rules is on the Rules page.

Technically, I would say no. For the reason you point out. But, doubles is usually a fun format and 9" closer to the basket makes no real difference, so most people would never make an issue out of that.

The bigger problem IMO is when your lie is in close quarters - for instance, close to a tree trunk. I throw lefty and I usually am teamed with a righty. If we do not really discuss how to mark the lie, one of us will be less than happy since that 9" can make the difference of a really awkward stance, a bruised hand on the follow-thru or being forced to throw some shot that we are not good at.

I tend to be a stickler about observing the correct lie and stance rules, but I have noticed that many people are not. Especially in doubles.

So, if you were faced with this during a weekly doubles round, what would you call?
How about during a World Doubles Championships?

Based on discussions with John Houck in San Saba after AM World Doubles this year. The rule for best shot doubles is that the first player to play establishes the lie.

The rules for marking the lie specify that the lie is established by placing a mini marker between the thrown disc and the target, touching the thrown disc, or leaving the thrown disc on the playing surface untouched.

Once the first player has declared the lie, the second player must use it.

Now in real life, it's a toss up.

That's kind of where I was going. The lie wasn't terrible, just kind of obstructed with a branch that was about waist high. Another 8 plus inches would "maybe" make a difference.

:confused: Real life? :confused:

The world of pseudo rules and incorrect quotes from the rule book.

Oh come on now, those never happen. ;)

Maybe not in Amarillo, but...

Yeah, it happens here also. We've had several here who think they know how to get around any rules they don't like. I'm sure it goes on more than most realize. It's a good thing we've got the DGRZ's on our side! :D

Here's an even better question for you John. Why don't you bid on ebay for a frisbee pie tin, and win it, and then when the seller contacts you just ignore her for 9 days. Don't pay for it, dont respond to her emails. Then, after 12 days pay for it and instead of apologizing, leave HER negative feedback!!

Why don't you come find me and work it out instead of running your mouth on here? Too much of a sissy? Keep your e-bay problems on e-bay. And I don't owe you anything, LOSER!

And besides that, you're a LIAR! I contacted you and told you what was up as soon as I saw the results of the auction. Get all of the facts straight before you start running your mouth again :mad:!

Maybe you should re-read that feedback and consider what your mouth is getting you into :eek:

Maybe both of you should be continuing this in PMs.

But then the rest of us couldn't watch... Where would be the fun in that ?

Not much fun at all dealing with this chick, wadded up panties and all :D

The day you see my panties is the day you play your first round of sub +10 golf

Rock is the only person on ebay with a negative rating.

http://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback&userid=rock3197

I guess if you can't play a minus round get a minus rating

What a loser. :confused:

let's just hope your pdga rating stays above -1

I'm not too concerned with my ratings. That is something that is dealt with in a face-to-face manner, as opposed to ebay liars who hide behind their computer screens and hurl insults and foul language. Here's your chance to do the right thing: Shut up and move on, or you've got my address, come find me and we can work it out, one way or another. Quit hiding like a little kid and own up to what your mouth is getting you into.

I wish I had your brain. I'd step on it.

Hmmm. Threats now? Are you sure that's where you want to take this?

This is why they made PM's. People will soon start picking sides, and you can probably guess which side they will choose.

I'm on Floppy's side :D

To kinda get back on topic..
Why are there not a whole lot of Doubles Tournaments? I played in one a few weeks back and had a blast (weather aside). It was nice to have someone coaching me into or out of certain shots for 2 days. We didn't win, but had aheluva good time.

You've got the brain of a 4 year old.

In your chest freezer.

While I hate to interupt the Rockin Hyzer lovefest, I did want to weigh in on the original doubles lie question.

I believe this question was covered on another thread about a year or so ago. The conclusion drawn was that it is legal for the second partner to play from the mini even if the first partner opted not to use one. However if the first player places a mini the second player must play from there also.

Not much fun at all dealing with this chick, wadded up panties and all :D



What's especially hilarious about this whole eBay transaction gone bad is that John thinks that AnneHyzer is a girl when it's really just that pyscho Morgan Wright using a different username.

Wow! You're quick. I know who I'm dealing with.

Gary, Houck told me the other way last year. I asked this question and was told both players could either mark it, both players not mark it, the first player not mark it and the second mark it, or the first palyer mark it and the second come back with the disc and "unmark" it.

That is an unusual way to interpret the rule. Just to be on the safe side with the rules, I would have the player that prefers the disc be used as the marker throw first, and the one that wants to use a mini to throw second. This is just because the rule for using the thrown disc as a marker specifies the the disc is not to be touched or repositioned.


803.02.A ...A player may instead choose, without touching or repositioning the thrown disc, to use the thrown disc as the marker. ...

given that marking or not marking your lie are both legal ways to play from the same disc location, I would argue that one player could throw from behind the disc and one could mark it with a mini if they were so inclined.

at our weekly doubles our teams usually pick whether to mark/not mark the lie as a pair, but we dont have a strict ruling on the issue.

Based on 803.06.B, it appears that both players must use the same marker:


803.06 Interference
B. If a disc at rest on the playing surface is moved, the disc shall be replaced as close as possible to its original location, as determined by a majority of the group or an official. If a marker disc is moved, the marker disc shall be replaced as close as possible to its original location, as determined by a majority of the group or an official. See also 803.07 B for movement of a disc above the playing surface.



Since most (though not all) forms of doubles require both players to throw from the same lie*, by electing to throw without placing a mini marker disc, Player A converts the previously thrown disc into the marker disc, thereby establishing the point on the playing surface from which, presumably, both players must play.

* Assuming that the terms "each lie" (see Best Shot rules) is equivalent to "same lie" (see Worst Shot rules); given the complications that accrue if they are not equivalent, it is much more highly probable that they are equivalent than that they are not.

just mark the **** disc. then the player who wants to play from the mini can throw from the mini, and the player who wants to use the disc can put his foot at the back of where the disc was. that is still a legal stance. and avoids the confusion.

I'm not disagreeing. I am just relaying what I was told. Like most questions on doubles, the counter-argument is basically that the rulebook is written for singles and therefore doesn't apply. In some instances, that argument makes sense, although it appears the rulebook can be sensibly applied to this question.

James,

Like most questions on doubles, the counter-argument is basically that the rulebook is written for singles and therefore doesn't apply.

To which the counter-counter-argument is that the doubles rules (http://www.pdga.com/rules/doubles.php) explicitly state:
These rules for doubles play have been approved by the PDGA Rules Committee.

Doubles play comes in a variety of formats. Best Shot, Best Disc (aka Best Score), Alternate Shot, Worst Shot, and Tough Shot are described below. Except where noted, PDGA rules apply.



Sandalman,

just mark the **** disc. then the player who wants to play from the mini can throw from the mini, and the player who wants to use the disc can put his foot at the back of where the disc was. that is still a legal stance. and avoids the confusion.

The strategy you advocate is valid, provided that the lie is marked with a mini before the first player throws. In the scenario posed above, however, the first player throws using the previously thrown disc as the marker without first marking the lie with a mini marker disc. In that circumstance, the rules appear prima facie to disallow the second player from substituting the lie established by placing a mini for the lie established by the previously thrown disc. All of which underscores the importance of partners discussing their options prior to playing any throw. :)

fore, agreed!

I was unclear. I should have said that "the rulebook is written for singles and therefore can't always be clearly applied to doubles questions."

The original question is one example. I bet there are others.

Hey Jeff congrats on getting the gig.....

....Scoring Co-Director, 2005 Pro Worlds, Allentown, PA

I guess it was cheaper than calling Kelly Girl

No really, congrats, sounds like a lot of fun