Hey Folks, I had a post saved with some good advice re: decomposed granite tee pad contruction a few years back but can't find it on my hard drive. What we need is a "how to" document on contructing a good decomposed granite tee. Would someone "in the know" on decomposed granite tees please post some instructions here (better yet email me - ctowne@pdga.com )?

Thinking 5' x 10' boxed with pressure treated lumber, laying down some weed suppression cloth, sand and then decomposed granite. Packing it down with one of those tamping machines. Is there some binding agent that I can add to the mix to make it harder? Looking for less maintenance down the line. Don't tell me "comcrete is better" - I know it - but the parks group that I am working with will NOT go there. If there are some good dg tee instructions somewhere on the web - send me there too.

Cliff

You can build a box and pack it with sand and gravel, but you can't put a slab of concrete in the same place.

Parks departments are funny! :)

There are a few different polymer applications out there that seem to be appropriate for fixing the surface of a non-concrete tee pad. Not sure about the expense factor.

What products would these be?

Put the weed block down AFTER the sand. Weeds can grow in sand.

Based on my experience with municipalities in my line of work, I have to believe that the muni-parks dept. you are working with would already have information on that. Usually, they don't suggest a really unusual building material unless they have had prior experience with it in addition whole host of specifications regarding installation. I would think they have used it elsewhere in their parks and had a contractor install it. Plus, if the contractor is fairly civil, they might be willing to provide some info as to what the parks like to see in the granite.

Not only that, but I did a cursory search in Google using the terms "decomposed grante" and this sounds like a landscaping item. I am not familiar with it since it is rarely used around here. We here in Michigan use CONCRETE :-). There has to be lots of landscaping suppliers in your area that would be more than happy to help out. I.E. they give you the advice, you buy thier materials to produce the pads. Make some phone calls and I bet you'd get your answer.

-DaveB

Thanks for the advice. It is not the Parks Dept. that insists on decomposed granite - it is a powerful and protective citizen's group that we have to go through to try to get a course installed. Concrete is a non-starter with this group. Yes - the Parks will have some experience in this area - no doubt, and I will take advantage of that. I just want to educate myself some on tee pad construction independently - it will give us a better chance of getting the best non-concrete, non-rubber tees possible.

Cliff....Sounds very similar to what the bergen County (NJ) parks dept has done with our tee pads for the new Campgaw reservation course in mahwah, NJ. We've got 6x6 railroad ties on 3 sides, filled with road millings. Supposedly the millings will compact over time (hopefully before it all gets kicked out by players) and harden, while having enough grippage so that it isn't slippery when wet. I'm not sure if environmentally sensitive folks will be Ok with it. It does recycle road millings somewhat responsibly, although i guess it could be argued they're being introduced to a natural area
like a parking lot would be.

Dan Doyle
Warwick NY/Mahwah NJ

Cliff....Sounds very similar to what the bergen County (NJ) parks dept has done with our tee pads for the new Campgaw reservation course in mahwah, NJ. We've got 6x6 railroad ties on 3 sides, filled with road millings. Supposedly the millings will compact over time (hopefully before it all gets kicked out by players) and harden, while having enough grippage so that it isn't slippery when wet. I'm not sure if environmentally sensitive folks will be Ok with it. It does recycle road millings somewhat responsibly, although i guess it could be argued they're being introduced to a natural area
like a parking lot would be.

Dan Doyle
Warwick NY/Mahwah NJ



Road millings? Environmentally sound? Are you kidding me? What a joke. Road millings perform no better than stabilized gravel in applications like that. Besides, you are only going to get compaction on millings if you have a VERY large piece of machinery (like a 15 ton roller) packing the daylights out of it on a really hot day – a minimum of 85 degrees. Sheez...if you want environmentally friendly stuff use a driveway gravel or something like that, at least it isn’t filled with tar.

People come up with goofy ideas everyday.

And yes, I work in road construction and I have too much time on my hands.

-DaveB

Cliff,

Take a look at soil stabilizers such as naturalpave (http://sspco.com/naturalpave.html) or polypavement (http://www.polypavement.com/).

Cliff - I used just the setup you are talking about when constructing tee pads at Houston's busiest course, Agnes Moffitt.

I used pressure treated 2x6 boards to make a 3 sided frame. 6' across the front and 12' along the sides. I used industrial sized hinges to join the long sides to the shorter front piece. We partially buried the framework and then filled it with decomposed granite.

The little portable hand-tampers don't work worth beans. The boxes looked good when they were first put in and tamped down, but they rut out fairly quickly - so they require continual maintenance.

When the granite soil is wet, it is fairly soft...when it's dry, it hardens up like concrete and the little pebbles of granite act like little ball-bearings in the tee box.

They make an orange plastic grid of little hexagonal shaped stuff that you might try putting down as a base to stabilize the soil first. It might help.

Anything short of concrete tees is gonna require maintenance...it's just a fact of life. You might be able to wheel and deal with your park department if you were willing to put some funds into escrow for demolition of the tee pads if they'll let you build concrete ones.

Anything short of concrete tees is gonna require maintenance...it's just a fact of life.

Ching_Lizard, take a look at the soil stabilizers mentioned above. Haven't seen soil stabilizers used for teepads, but have seen them used for bike/walking paths, skateboard bowls, and outdoor basketball courts.

Is there anything that can be done too crushed granite boxes to harden and keep them from ruting? the austin parks dept. has started using this material and it is terrible!! the footing is just awkward as hell!! Can something be added to the surface or mixed in? cement is out of the question!! :confused:

See reply above.

This stuff looks really promising, I just need a place to verify it's durablilty.

PolyPavement (http://www.polypavement.com/)

Here's another, but the above's corp of engr information is failry impressive.


Natural Pave (http://www.sspco.org/naturalpave.html)

I've done quite a bit of research on PolyPavement and DirtGlue, which are both soil stabilizing polymers. I'm in the process of doing a trial on PolyPavement, primarily since it's a west coast product and shipping is much cheaper to my location. Initially, it seems like a good solution, but until it cures fully there is no way to know. I've spoken with a couple of people who have experience with these products and they rave about them. One is a plant nursery that put this on the pathways, so they have a "dirt" look, but wear well and don't get muddy. I've also seen cart paths and roadways done with this. You can even paint on it when it's properly sealed.

There's a couple ways to use these: one is to spray the diluted polymer on the top of your leveled and tamped soil and saturate it down a half inch or so, the other is to mix the polymer solution in with the soil and then tamp it and finish it like concrete in a two inch slab. You then apply a sprayed on coating to seal. I'm going with the mix in method and finishing the top with the 'astroturf mat' rough surface. This stuff can make a pretty slick and slippery surface if troweled out, so it would be wise to rough up the pad slightly for traction.

On the down-side, this stuff is not cheap. I'm figuring about $1,200 in product and freight for enough polymer to build eighteen 6 x 12 pads. That doesn't include pressure treated lumber for forms, or the cost of some tools and sprayers, etc. to do the job. It may come close to the cost of concrete pads, but with this, I can build solid slab tee pads in the woods where no mixer truck can go.

Another tool in the toolbox. Concrete, rubber mats, polymer/soil, natural. Take your pick.

A good thing to watch is how quickly the "texture" wears down to slick. Concrete pads that are not roughed up properly, or played on too soon, get super slick and are dangerous. I'm thinking this stabilized dirt might wear down more quickly than concrete.

A good thing to watch is how quickly the "texture" wears down to slick. Concrete pads that are not roughed up properly, or played on too soon, get super slick and are dangerous. I'm thinking this stabilized dirt might wear down more quickly than concrete.



That's why I'm reserving total judgment until this cures completely. The pathways at the nursery seems to have help up well over three years of constant use in a commercial stting, but then again, there is that "slide and turn" in disc golf that could put more abrasive action on the surface.

One thing about this stuff: if you need to make repairs, you just mix some dilute polymer with soil and put it right on. It sticks to itself without other prep. Much easier to patch than concrete.

FLY PADS the go anywhere pad tested evey where. ;)

FLY PADS the go anywhere pad tested evey where. ;)



I agree with the FLY PADS............

Crushed rock base with 1/2 inch thick FLY PADS.......
Go with the best.......you'll be glad you did.

If you choose a copy of the Original FLY PADS , it would be like throwing your flippy roller into a head wind. Not a good choice if you ask me.

Please don't settle. Throw for metal.
Original FLY PADS..................end.

That polymer stuff looks interesting, but like Idaho says, the jury is still out on that stuff, but it sure sounds worth a shot.

Interesting how the first outfit talks specifically about repairs from spikes and punctures though...makes me feel a little skeptical.

Fly Boy's Fly Pads are good, but like his claim states: "the go anywhere pad tested evey where." they are pretty liable to end up going in the back of some hooligan's pick-up truck! :D Typical park mowing crews are pretty hard on the things too.

Larry you cant steal a pad in houston because they dont have one.Only the woodlands have fly pads and they were put down hastely.What are you going to do with a 111lb of dirty rubber.To date I have only had 1 pad stolen in 7 years pretty good track record.Fly 18 is happy to say that they are the pad of choice for Marshall ST this year.Jason has had my 3/8" pads on his course for 5 years now still working great.The new courses will upgrade to the 1/2" pads.I will be back in texas next month to install my new course in Ft Worth it is awsome...I signed 3 new courses last week all will go in the next 2 months ;)The other 2 are in Calli Semi valley and 29 palms.......Decomposed granite is great underneath a fly pad it drains well......Fly 18 14 courses and growing a park is where you start fly is where you will finish.Thanks don for the skinny on fly......

What new course in Fort Worth?

I understand the original posters problem but can anyone explain why people (particualrly enviromentalists) hate concrete so much? Granted, if it isn't finished correctly it makes for some really slick conditions. On the other hand, concrete is one of the most recyclable construction materials out there. I can't tell you how many gravel pits, asphalt plants, etc. take that stuff and crush it to reuse it near where I live. Either that or you can reuse it for clean fill or crush it to place in ditches for erosion control among many other things.

-DaveB

http://www.centxdglove.com/uploads/DSCN3499.JPG

Here's a picture of the road millings Dan Doyle was referring to at the Campgaw Reservation course in Mahwah, NJ.

Now THAT looks like a fun hole. But as you can see, millings will fair absolutely no better than gravel for the very same reasons. It will rut just like gravel. You'll get the exact same about of grip on it just like gravel. Let the asphalt plants recycle that stuff or let dudes like me use it for base courses in roads. Oh-well, if people are hard-up to use it - they can knock themselves out. Seems like a waste of time and money to me.

BTW...Nice shirt.

-Dave

Is there anything that can be done too crushed granite boxes to harden and keep them from ruting? the austin parks dept. has started using this material and it is terrible!! the footing is just awkward as hell!! Can something be added to the surface or mixed in? cement is out of the question!! :confused:




the rain did wonders!! boxes were great all weekend!!

Has anyone ever used what is called "crusher run limestone" and if so how is it different from decomposed granite?

I know on gravel roads the BLM uses something called MagChlor. I am almost positive they mean magnesium chloride. It binds the gravel together pretty well. It must be very low environmental impact-wise, as it was used on some roads inside a Wilderness Study Area. At any rate...

Concrete is bad to environmentalists for a few reasons...1) looks...we are building a concrete jungle man, rock looks closer to natural
2)Concrete doesn't let water through. So what you say. Well, with the crushed aggregate, granite, limestone, whatever, the water drains down, not off the edges. The water draining down into the soil instead of running off prevents erosion. It also very indirectly and minimally can help to maintain groundwater levels. I know that sounds like a stretch, but when concrete and asphalt are put down, the drainage into the soil decreases. Less water in the soil=less groundwater in the aquifer.
3) Making concrete burns fossil fuels. Concrete mixing plants use energy. Most energy comes from fossil fuels. The gravel type stuff is not as energy intensive.

I am sure others could think of bad things with concrete too. I like concrete pads. They are consistent, easy to maintain. However, I have been to courses without concrete pads without having any problems. I don't think it is 100% the only way to go. Other tee surfaces just might require more maintenance.

Felix, just wanted to address this again. I know it's been discussed elsewhere but this was the first thread I found with soil stabilizers discussed. Did a little "science project" with PennSuppress, one type of dust inhibitor used in quarries, etc. The recommended dilution for dust suppression is one part concentrate to four parts water (1:4). At this dilution it does a great job of stabilizing dust but nothing to firm up a soft soil. Admittedly this is one product and not really designed for this purpose so the results are not surprising, but it was free and worth a try. I'll try more concentrated versions and report on those if they show promise.

I think in cases where concrete tee pads are out of the question, then Reese (FlyBoy) is probably right. If you use the thick fly pads on top of a properly prepared base of decomposed granite, they will give you the lowest possible maintenance tee pads you can get.

Some players don't like playing from concrete, some don't like playing from Fly Pads, some don't like playing from dirt - face it, you can't please everyone all of the time! :D But I'm a big believer that whatever you put down for a teeing area has got to be low maintenance. I can play from almost anything except rutted mud-pits! :D

If you've got a good base of decomposed granite down there, then get yourself some of Reese's FlyPads. Don't cheap-out and get the thin ones...get the really thick ones, cut them to be generously sized and I'll bet that you find that they're worth the money you spent on them.

As another potential alternative -

There is a rest area I stop at on my to San Antonio. The State Dept. of Transportation has a sidewalk and a few signs advertising one of several ways in which the State is recycling stuff. The sidewalk is composed of recycled tire rubber stuff and looks and feels great. The rubber slabs are about the size of paving stones, so it might be very problematic trying to composed a tee box out of those things, but it would be interesting to see what company is manufacturing those things to see what other sizes they might have available. Good PR to say that your tee pads are made from a recycled product!