What do you think of pins surrounded by water so if you miss your putt you are wet and OB, so putts are worth 2 strokes?

like in this picture of hole 16 at Hyzer Creek (http://www.hoyhoy.com/subweb/hyzercreekwatercolor.jpg)

see hole 16 on the course map (http://www.hoyhoy.com/subweb/coursemap.jpg)

My personal preference is to place the entire basket under water and challenge players to hole out with an Innova Hydra.

An actual undoctored photo:
http://www.nefa.com/images/barreunderwater/barre-hole2-040605.gif

--Josh

My guess, one of the Army Corps courses in Mass. at flood control dams, during spring flood season. Right?

That would be Barre Falls Dam at the beginning of this month. It has since drained to normal levels, just in time for the tournament this weekend.

Another photo, you can see the submerged basket near the top of this one:
http://www.nefa.com/images/barreunderwater/barre-tee17-040605.gif

--Josh

Yeah, it looked like Barre from the yellow Discatchers. If I remember, hole 2 is still pretty high up the slope. If 2 is submerged, what about some even lower ones? Is that the T pad for 16 I see in the foreground?

Same thing happens to Prompton in Pennsylvania. A couple of the pins near the flood control area are still missing, I think 16, 17??

Well the poll overwhelmingly says it's bad and too penal, so I guess I'll take it out.

NOT!!!!!

It?

watch it buddy, I'm not that kind of girl!

http://www.hoyhoy.com/aurora.jpg

-I think there should be more poles surrounded by water, not a huge pond, but say 15' in all directions. That would make the putt and upshot very tricky, and more about placement than proximity. But I like harder courses.
-Ann-I think the other pic was better. But I like hotter chicks.

She likes mo'organ... /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
If she had a twin sister ~ they'd be lick alikes! http://www.madisc.org/discus/clipart/proud.gif

http://www.hoyhoy.com/twins.jpg

Here is the photograph of the hole in question. Too penal? Nice challenge? What???

www.hoyhoy.com/subweb/hole16.jpg (http://www.hoyhoy.com/subweb/hole16.jpg)

See the "Minimum basket distance from OB" (http://www.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=73711&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1) thread.

Thanks Jeff.

On this hole, it's not really such a big deal that the pin is surrounded by OB. If you use strategy you can stay dry every time. For example, there are two big trees on the bank of the creek blocking the pin, visible on the right of the photo. If you are in the fairway 100 or 150 feet from the pin, you can shoot a nice fast one really hard directly at the pin. If you hit the trees, it bounces back and lays up 10-20 feet from the pin. If you miss the trees, you shoot across the creek and are 10-20 feet from the pin on the other side. Either way, it's an easy putt. This green is actually pretty easy, not very many people wind up in the water. Everybody knows this hole has the pin in the creek, so they play it strategically. Everybody loves the hole.

But the ASTHETIC value is great. It's beautiful. What a gorgeous green. You can almost paint a picture of it.

...oh, wait...

It looks like a great hole. As long as you know it's there.

And Twins ...
Hottie Twins at that

Although i had considered the idea when i was thinking of interesting hole ideas I don't think that a basket should be surrounded by OB.. In the case of this Hole though The OB isn't that big and blowby putts would end up safe.. It would really test your puting skills because Popouts are garunteed OB.
I think that hole is not too bad of an idea, but any bigger of a stream and i think it would be way to difficult/dumb.

-Scott Lewis

I agree. In general I think a pole surrounded by OB would be too much of a penalty for a pop out. Not to mention a pain in the @$$ when you had to scurry down the bank and fish around for your disc. If I slipped and got my shoes and socks all wet and got a double boggie I would be grumpy. There are probably exceptions however and having never played Hyzer creek I won't comment on this particular hole. I'll have to admit it does look interesting.

If you add the two polls together you get:

good idea, nice challange-----31
bad idea, too penal--------------47
not good or bad--------------------9
I can't swim------------------------16

I will add the "not good or bad" votes to the yes side, since they don't think it's bad, and will play it without minding either way, which is good. That makes 40. And I will add the "I can't swim" votes to the yes side too, because they are basically telling me that they will be using this hole as a chance to improve their swimming abilities, something which might come in handy as a survival skill in case they are presented with aquifareous hazard. That makes 56.

yay-----56
nay-----47

The hole stays as it is!!!!!

How is the OB handled? If you blow thru the chains and drop out into OB, a case could be made that you are now "in" the basket but with a penalty throw since the last point IB was in the basket. So, putting for a 2 you could end up with an automatic circle 3 with a pop out. That's not too punitive. Likewise, if you doink off the outside of basket into OB, you get to mark next to it which would be a drop in 4. That's probably a little too punitive.

How about ... The creek within 10' of the basket is casual with a drop zone 20' from the basket.

Forget it. Who is going to measure 10 feet in a waterfall? Wet is OB. All PDGA rules apply. Only the inside of the basket holed out properly is IB. That sort of goes against the PDGA rules though cause the whole pin is OB. So shoot me.

But the outside of the pin is OB cause the whole pin is OB anyway, so if you blow through or doink or whatever, the outside of the pin can't be used as IB cause it's not. It's OB. The entire pin is OB (except if you hole out properly).

Can't use metal as the last IB point. Putt from river bank.

Why? I figure, if you can use the metal as the last IB point if you go OB, then the guy who doinks and goes 30 feet down the stream and in the water can use the pin as the last IB point but the guy who doinks and bounces 30 feet across the creek has to putt from 30 feet. Why give advantage to a guy who gets wet? Forget it, this would never pass on Judge Mathis, Judge Judy, or even Texas Justice.

What about DROT?????????

OB.

Disc suspended above OB is not really OB until it's marked. You have to mark it on the playing surface, and that's OB.

I agree. Since the whole pin is OB, everything is OB (except holing out). So, DROT is OB!

Thanks for the sweet screensaver(the basket, not the photo of you).

The basket is not OB unless the TD defines it to be.

From the Rules Q&A:

Question: My throw landed on a bridge that spans an OB creek. The TD has not said anything about playing from the bridge. Do I play from the bridge, or is my disc OB since it's above the creek? What if I'm on the bridge but over land? Does it matter if the bridge is more than two meters above the ground below?

Response: The answers to these questions revolve around the definition of OB. In the glossary section of the rules, it states that the OB line "extends a vertical plane upward and downward". Where does that plane end? The rules do not address that directly. There seem to be two reasonable choices:

A: The vertical plane extends indefinitely up and down.
B: The vertical plane ends when it reaches another playing surface.

Option A requires less interpretation, and option B makes more sense intuitively. The Rules Committee has discussed the issue and has decided that option B is preferable.

Thanks. Sounds like the inside of the basket is another playing surface. If that's true, then DROT is in bounds.

Well almost. If the inside of the basket is a playing surface and the top of the basket is not, then marking the DROT puts it inside the basket and thus holed out. Marking it on the lower playing surface makes it OB. :cool:

The top of the basket would be a playing surface since the rule Q&A allows more than one playing surface in the vertical direction. So, the water playing surface can be OB, in the basket can be holed out and on top of the basket can be IB but not holed out. If a shot skips off the top of the basket into the water OB, the player could technically take a stance on top of the basket or the closest IB point which would be on the edge of the water for their drop in shot.

The top of the basket would be a playing surface since the rule Q&A allows more than one playing surface in the vertical direction. So, the water playing surface can be OB, in the basket can be holed out and on top of the basket can be IB but not holed out. If a shot skips off the top of the basket into the water OB, the player could technically take a stance on top of the basket or the closest IB point which would be on the edge of the water for their drop in shot.



If thats true then my putt that fell in the basket in BG is counted as a three by the rules.

But from what I am told a DROT must be marked directly below where it is resting because the top of the basket IS NOT a playing surface there for you must mark below and make the putt. So therefore if you have to do that then you would have to sink the putt to not be OB.

Correct me if im wrong but EVERYONE has been tellin me that the top of the basket isnt a playing surface and ALL DROTS must be played the same so if you got a DROT on a basket in the water then your putt would be OB.

Actually, the top of the basket wouldn't be a playing surface but would be an object that was inbounds like hitting a fence. A disc actually sitting on top would be OB because there's a specific rule that says a DROTs must be marked on the playing surface which is the OB water. However, skipping off the top of the basket could be considered the last point IB if it then lands in the water. I guess the result would still be the same with a penalty and a drop in from the edge of the water. The only way a player benefits with that call would be if the throw came down the creek over the water for the last 50 feet, so the lie would be by the basket rather than 50 feet back up the creek in terms of determining the last point IB.

maybe I'm off here... but when considering the rules governing any hole, don't we have to consider them all instead of just one or two? Since the basket is OB, the hole does not conform to PDGA rules and guidelines. What's the point of arguing rules as applied to a non-conforming hole? The PDGA rules can not be enforced on something that the PDGA does not consider a proper disc golf hole. Am I wrong?

Since the basket is OB



That not true here since playing surfaces can be stacked. Although, it's a little stretch to consider the basket a playing surface in the conventional sense. However, first you see if the disc is at rest in the chains or basket. then call it "holed out", then remove your disc. Somewhere in that sequence, the disc needs to momentarily be IB.

Or declare the area directly below the basket to be a casual relief area with a drop zone (to prevent those that are directly up or down stream from the basket not being able to get to dry land within 5 meters). Discs that land under the basket or ones that are resting on top get casual relief to a drop zone on the bank.

If we do the basket in the stream thing at Highbridge, I'm thinkig we'll call the water casual and specify a drop zone 10m away where the player throws from without penalty other than the distance. It will be similar to what we're doing on the few holes where a disc might get suspended 2m above a basket, i.e. having player putt from a drop zone 10m away from the basket with no penalty.

Is the putt going to be an CLEAR WIDE OPEN PUTT that is fair to everyone???

This is kinda a tangent...WHAT if you choose to shoot from the water, yet don't have one of those metal minis [even to borrow]; how does one proceed if the marker keeps getting swept away? Presuming a mini can't be 'tombstoned' into the playing surface, that is. :confused: I'm thinking one of those "relocate no-closer, two-throw penaltys" might be the price. :eek:

Yes. No need to be tricky. It's a straight ahead clear putt with a 50-ft dropoff behind it (just kidding). The player determines their destiny. If you make the putt, you didn't "deserve" the penalty. If you miss it, well maybe you "deserved" it. Kind of like the Salem witch trials where they determined whether those on trial were witches or not based on whether they floated (or was it drowned?) when dunked. In this case where the basket is in the water, we would line it up so the player is putting at a 90 angle to the line of the creek to reduce the chance of going in again. Of course, they can also lay up which would be like just accepting the penalty in the first place.

If there's a casual relief drop zone specified, the player has no choice like regular casual relief. They must play from the drop zone unless the TD allows both options like what is allowed with OB drop zones.

[apple polishing mode] Making putting more difficult would make the scoring more-in-line with Bolf, anyways.[/polish] :D

Glad to see someone is paying attention... :D

:cool:
Did you adress my 'floating mini' query, Chuck? I wasn't paying attention... :o

We've talked about having official granite minis available near the basket for those who might need them. Since players can reestablish approximate lies without penalty, just take your stance in the water and others in the group can correct your foot placement if requested.

...another case of Chuck's answer being taken for granite. ;)

Of course our slogan for one course at Highbridge is "Granite Ridge Rocks!"

Well, I am moving hole 16 to aother spot now. It will be on an island in the creek so if you hit metal and drop you don't get OB. But you can still roll into OB.

Is everybody happy now?