I think it's time to get rid of the stupid tradition of circling the score for OB etc like when you get a "circle 3" etc.

Now that holes are not all par 3 anymore, we can start to use the real golf system of circling the birdies and putting squares on the bogies like they do in REAL golf. Like this:

http://sports.yahoo.com/golf/pga/players/Tiger+Woods/147/scorecard/2005/15

"if it aint broke, dont fix it"

it IS broke. we circle OBs/penalties in TX, but when i lived in scottsdale, the AZ boys did it like ball golf - circles meant birdies and squares for bogeys. my score/round/hole tracking websites uses the traditional ball golf standard. it makes things much easier to talk about when introducing the ball&stick crowd to our game.

I think circles for penalties are unnecessary, I prefer the ball golf standard.
It is not a rule to circle or square any scores. It seems to vary by region. If I am keeping score and someone says " I had a circle 3" I just write 3 and a p. I guess my point is don�t� do it if you don�t like it

~Chris

A very basic question, but to prevent confusion: is a "circle 3" equal to [2 strokes plus 1 penalty = 3], or [3 strokes, but I also had a penalty = 4]?

Circleing or putting P next to a hole with an OB stroke is a great idea, and should be made into a rule that says you have to.....

Lets say someone gets a circle 4.....that means they only threw 3 shots on the hole.....they might after the round look back and think "I didnt get a 4 on 7....I only threw 3 times"....

while this is unlikely, it's a friendly little reminder that on that hole, you recieved some type of penalty.

Why don't ball golfers need a friendly little reminder? Just put a "p" next to it.

Lots of disc golf courses have par 4 and par 5 holes now. But we still keep score by counting from 3 because it makes it easy to figure out the score. But in ball golf they just look at the circles and squares and know the score in 2 seconds. We should use the ball golf system, it's a hell of a lot better.

The circle on the card is important because it determines the teeing order on the next hole. Also, the point MTL made could become a factor.

The circle on the card is important because it determines the teeing order on the next hole.



Negative

On our temporary 18 hole 13,000 foot par 72 course with designated par 3s, 4s and 5s some of the pros spontaneously did the circle-square thing even though they generally don't for par 3 courses. I found that to be very helpful.

The circle-square thing works great for pros and advanced but it breaks down for the lower divisions when they have triple square 8s!

Negative.

Two squares for anything double bogie or over and two circles for eagle or better according to

http://sports.yahoo.com/golf/pga/players/Tiger+Woods/147/scorecard/2005/15

Never 3 circles or 3 squares

Personally, we are not ball golf. Even though our roots come from ball golf, we don't need to mark birdies and boggies.

I like to circle my OB's, always have and always will.

Here's a double bogey with two squares, when Chris Dimarco slipped up yesterday and Tiger Wood got 7 birdies in a row and passed him. Check out Dimarco here:

http://sports.yahoo.com/golf/pga/players/Chris+DiMarco/206/scorecard/2005/15

Oh yeah this is my 1999th post and I don't want to go over 2000 because that would make me a computer dork so I'm signing off forever.

Bye all!

Oh yeah this is my 1999th post and I don't want to go over 2000 because that would make me a computer dork so I'm signing off forever.

Bye all!



I am afraid you already are a computer dork Morgan

"if it aint broke, dont fix it"


The problem is that it is not standard for all of disc golf, so it is kind of broken.

Wherever you are, y'all circle penalties. (I think it is all penaltyies, right? Not juts OBs.) In Texas they also do that.

Out here California we circle birdies. A lot of us put a "p" next to the number if there was a penalty. Arizona does it like that too.

So when you travel out here, you will keep score "wrong". Likewise when we travel there, we will be doing it "wrong."

So we kind of need to standardize it. I'm partial to the "circle the birdies" method. Besides being the way that I do it :), it is also the established standard for golf. We don't really do the squares for bogeys all the time, so that would be a change for us, too. But lots and lots and lots of people understand the ball golf method, so just using that here because it makes sense to use not just because it is ball golf style seems like a good approach to me.

Circle OB's, the rest of you guys are doing it wrong. It has been that way for the 17 years I have been playing.

...if you started doing it 'right,' it would make more sense....once you 'got' it. ;)

Besides, you're going to be playing at least another 17� years, right? :cool:

You have been doing it wrong for 17 year. Everytime I go to the east coast I still circle my birdie and put a P by my penalties.

Who wants a bunch of P on your score card.

If you throw OB, you circle your score. Simple.

Who cares if you birdied or boggied a hole.

I am not about to start squaring my scores.

You must throw alot of penatly shots then. I prefer to see all the birdies I have made.

You must throw alot of penatly shots then. I prefer to see all the birdies I have made.



no, the idea is to NOT have any circles on your score card

Oh yeah this is my 1999th post and I don't want to go over 2000 because that would make me a computer dork so I'm signing off forever.

Bye all!



Oh my god, my prayers have been answered. Thank you Lord.

Circle OB's, the rest of you guys are doing it wrong. It has been that way for the 17 years I have been playing.


I hope you forgot a smiley on that one, pizza.

I've been playing for over 20 years, so I guess you are doing it wrong. :)

Who wants a bunch of P on your score card. Red Herring...or joke?

If you throw OB, you circle your score. Simple. No, simplisTIC. THAT is useless info. A 54 with no "p's" is the same as a 54 with several, but a scorecard with 18 scores of "3" is different from a card with 17 "3's," and one of something else. THAT'S simple...and takes about 0.37 seconds to notice.

Who cares if you birdied or boggied a hole. Uh...everybody?!? But especially, players, directors, and designers...also, those for whom relative score means something. Minding your 'P's' and queues is part of the game, anyways.

I am not about to start squaring my scores. Oh come on, you've never turned a 2 into a "2 squared"? /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

...just wondering, PG, do you make your circles slightly different for all the different penalties?!? :eek: Different colours, and all that, too? :confused: :D

When I plat friendly rounds and keep score, I use a real simple system. If it is a birdie -, par /, or bogey +. Doubles get doubled. Super simple when adding scores and the end.

With the par 54 courses the easiest way to do it is slash the pars - write the 2s and write everything else. Then all you have to do is count the over strokes and subtract the birdies. That is super easy. Even if we went to par 72 then we could slash the pars - and count the over and under strokes. Now THAT is simple. I put Ps next to the penalties because what do you do when someone gets a quadrupul circle ten. How are you going to put 4 circles AND a ten in the little box??? I dont think it really matters if you mark the penalties or not. A 4 is a 4 is a 4 is a 4 is a 4 whether you get a penalty or whether you throw it 4 times.

Slash the pars - and count the over and under strokes :D

I think it's time to get rid of the stupid tradition of circling the score for OB etc like when you get a "circle 3" etc.

Now that holes are not all par 3 anymore, we can start to use the real golf system of circling the birdies and putting squares on the bogies like they do in REAL golf. Like this:

http://sports.yahoo.com/golf/pga/players/Tiger+Woods/147/scorecard/2005/15



:eek: In the "Birth Place of Disc Golf", birdies are circled and ALWAYS have been. Somewhere along the line, someone east of Cali, ran out of fingers for counting penalty strokes. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif So they started circling them.. :p
:DProbably the same group that thinks "Sticking in trees is arbitrary" :eek: :D

personally Id rather be able to find my "birdies" than be reminded of my "mistakes". :D

General Question:

Does it really matter?





Didn't think so.

General Question:

Does it really matter?


Some people also try to asses a non-rules rule penalty if you don't mark your scorecard as per local tradition. So it does kind of matter.

As for putting lsashes instead of scores, don't do it. I'd hate to see you get a penalty in a PDGA event because the total on your scorecard didn't match what all the numbers added up to.

A 4 is a 4 is a 4 is a 4 is a 4 whether you get a penalty or whether you throw it 4 times.


Hey, I found something Pimpin' said that I agree with :D

To me, a par or a boggy doesnt matter. Its your TOTAL score vs. everyone elses TOTAL score that determines finishing order. For personal reasons, you could keep track of penalties...but, if you have 3 or 4 circles on one hole. (we do have a hole in Abilene where its possible for more than 2 circles regularly)...you probably wont want to remember that anyway...but, you probably cant forget it either ;)

Now, if your playing a course with holes other than Par 3's and your bag tag ties get settled by how many birdies you have or something like that...then, your penalties might have more meaning. For me, its total score...period. Though, its probably not a bad idea to standardize the scoring.

As for putting lsashes instead of scores, don't do it. I'd hate to see you get a penalty in a PDGA event because the total on your scorecard didn't match what all the numbers added up to.



How would that happen if the slashes were pars and you just counted the over and under strokes???

You add up the individual hole scores to get the final total score. You don't add up overs and unders.

Also, anytime you start referring to "par" while scorekeeping in disc golf you are asking for trouble. More and more courses have par 4s, yet many many many people think that all holes are a par 3. So if you let someone say "par" for their score instead of the number of throws, you are creating a situation where an error can easily occur.

Tourneys are based on total throws. Keep the scores as total throws.

You add up the individual hole scores to get the final total score. You don't add up overs and unders.

Also, anytime you start referring to "par" while scorekeeping in disc golf you are asking for trouble. More and more courses have par 4s, yet many many many people think that all holes are a par 3. So if you let someone say "par" for their score instead of the number of throws, you are creating a situation where an error can easily occur.

Tourneys are based on total throws. Keep the scores as total throws.




If par is 72 and you have 5 bogies and 7 birdies you shot a 2 under par 70. If you had 8 bogies and 5 birdies you shot a 3 over par 75. Thats still total strokes. If you cant do that then you prolly didnt even make it through elementary match. If you have a par 4 and you got a 4 you slash it. Par 5 and get a 5 you slash it. As long as the score card has the pars on it then it will be fine. If TDs are giving out scorecards with incorrect pars then that is just poor Tournament Directing in my opinion. Count the overs and subtract the unders. If your 5 under on a par 54 you shot 49. If your 5 over you shot 59. Pure and simple. Slash the par and count the over under and either subtract from or add to par for the course.

Simple as that.

Also, anytime you start referring to "par" while scorekeeping in disc golf you are asking for trouble.



Exactly. The number of throws you have on a given hole is what should be written down.

" <font color="blue">How many throws was that?</font> "

" <font color="red">Par</font> "

" <font color="blue">You had par throws?</font> " :confused: :confused:

Players get in the habit of thinking "Par... Boggy... Even...1 under...1 over...1 down...1 up, etc" because of the casual rounds they play, and thats fine. After you have played enough...keeping score in your head is automatic, and you use the above terms to do it..because its easy that way for the individual, especially at your home course. Even doing it that way at your mini amongst players that are all very farmiliar with the course will probably work. But, for tournament play with other players on different courses..the most practical thing to do is use numbers for scores..period. No confusion...simple math...just numbers.

When in doubt, put numbers on each hole....add numbers at the end. The lowest score wins. Doesn't get any more simple than that.

Use whatever tricks you want for adding up the score. Many different ones work just fine.

But put the total number of throws down on the scorecard for each hole. There is nothing simpler than that. Writing a slash is not really any easier to write than a 3, 4, or 5.

Juts write the number. It's the simplest way to handle it.

Please use numbers!!! The sport is moving away from all-par-3's, and the best way to prevent stupid errors during competitive play is to use "match" as pimp called it, and add total throws. Over/Under/etc. can be used for yourself, but for scoring, why not just say the number of strokes? Handing out scorecards with "par" on them isn't the TD's job. I've never had a TD hand out cards with the par on them anyway. I wouldn't go by the signs that state par either. What if there is "Am Par, Advanced Par, and Pro Par?" KISS (keep it simple stupid) seriously needs to apply here, especially since there are obviously different traditions used all over the country.

yea, KISS your scorecard, circle your OB's and not your birdies.

At least we get it right in Texas

I will never P on my scorecard

oh yea, and one more thing, 2 meters above the playing surface is ALWAYS OB.

yea, KISS your scorecard, circle your OB's and not your birdies.

At least we get it right in Texas



Steers and Queers doesnt seem right to me :eek:

Steers and Queers. You sound like an aggie.

Speaking of circles denoting OB, some people seem to take that a little too seriously. They seemed really peeved if you write down 4 instead of circle 4. Like you insulted their mother or something. Unless the course designer needs feedback on penalties (by hole), then we should just put the number down. Some golfers seem pretty confused already, we need not add to their confusion with circles, squares, or pars.

Many golfers are confused, not just some (look at the spelling on this board for example). That means it's going to be a real hassle to standardize the scoring. But I think it should be done for no other reason than to assist in tournament scoring. I hardly play tournaments any more, but I work about 4 or 5 per year. Scoring would be easier if you knew the par for the course and simply deducted or added based on how many circles and squares you see.

Is this really that big of an issue? I for one think there are many other aspects of our sport that need revamping other than this. Circle, square, p, who the f*%# cares?

This is the message board. We don't solve problems. We argue........about nothing mostly........for weeks on end. ;)

Quick, someone create a poll on this topic. :p

Sorry I forgot about that message board fact. It just makes no difference to me or anyone I else I know.

Circle your penalties. http://www.madisc.org/discus/clipart/proud.gif

You mean "circle 2" isn't a birdie? ;)

Don't EVEN get me started... /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Is this really that big of an issue? I for one think there are many other aspects of our sport that need revamping other than this. Circle, square, p, who the f*%# cares?

So long as the two-meter rule argument is not exhausted, how can we go on to another topic?

Lets just go to roman numerals!

We encountered this when the other group on our card this weekend shot a triple circle 11 on the last hole of the first round. I do not know what the overall score was for an intermediate group that emptied their bags trying to land inbounds, I think they had 20 or so penalty strokes! Thats alot of circles.

Birdie/bogey/par does not matter. It is over all score that determines order and the winner. I finally got to play +54 par courses this weekend, course par ranged from 62 up to 67. I debated the legitimacy of some of the 4's and a few 5's because I easily birdied them every time I played them, but during the round, if it was a par 5 and I carded a 4, I considered it a birdie, some of the Texas guys said everything is a par three. I doubt that a 920ft hole with only 70ft wide fairways borderd by OB, and having the first 300ft shooting over a OB ravine is a par three. Thats just silly.

...some of the Texas guys said everything is a par three...Thats just silly.


I think that is a little silly, but I think that is mostly for convienience. "54" is the first real goal for disc golfers....that number of throws that disc golf says it will take to get through this course. As we know, there are different degrees of 'Par 54" courses (i.e. SSA or WCP), but 54 is still the initial standard. (I know i was sure excited the first time I got to under 54 :D) Par 54 has been around much longer than course ratings, player ratings, etc..and I think its still easier to think of everything around the number 54. With more and more new players coming into the current system, that will erode away some, but I think '54' will still be that first test, that first goal, and thus...be the number that things start from.

Then again, maybe we're just more hard-headed than the rest of the world ;)

We'll this is not ball golf. This is the only golf, So get with it. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

In California we circle birdies and square bogeys. I don't even understand how circling penalties was started. I would assume a misinterpreted ball golf score card.

It started because all holes were par 3, people added 4 and subtracted 2 the way ball golfers add squares and subtract circles.

Now all holes are not par 3 anymore. We need to do what they do in ball golf.

Why do you need to do anything to a scorecard other than write a number per hole and a total? The only other things required to have are warnings and penalty throws for rules infractions, and those have to be detailed out, so you can't fit that in the little box anyway. Having verified hundreds upon hundreds of scorecards, circles, squares, and 'P's are an absolute nightmare, especially with much of chicken scratch you see on scorecards. They aren't used in any calculation for tournament purposes. If you need to know how many actual throws you did per hole, you'd have to write it down yourself on a separate sheet anyway, as most times you don't get the scorecard back!

Write the number and free the constraints that bind them!

A 4 is a 4, a 5 is a 5, a 6 is a 6, a 9 is a 9, a 12 is a 12, no matter if they have 1 2 3 4 9 circles or NO FREAKIN CIRLCES. The number is still the same!!!!!!!!!!! A score is a score is a score. Who freakin cares if you went OB in order to get that score. You still got what you got!!!!!

I say we make everything a par 5 that way EVERYONE can shoot underpar and feel good about themselves. OH wait it would matter because a 54 would be a 54 would be a 54 would be a 54 wether you got 15 OB or penalty strokes or NONE AT ALL!!!!!!!

The rules require an annotation of penalty strokes. The circle was a quick way of annotating penalty ( and OB ) strokes. If the circle goes away, then the strokes have to be annotated in the margin or on the back. Then again, strict interpretation requires those notes be added now.

What the difference between a circle 4 and a regular 4. Either way you got a 4. Why does it matter if you got a penalty or not??? Its not like you get a better rated round if you had a penalty stroke instead of actually throwing the disc an extra time.

Mills, the reason why I do circles on a score card is to help remind myself or another competitor at the end of the round that even though he/she has thrown 3 times, the scores is a 4 due to a penalty stroke.

804.03 SCORING

C. Warnings and penalty throws given to a player for rules infractions should be noted on the scorecard.
================================================== ==========

There is no difference to the player or the standings in the event how the throws were obtained. There is some value for the course designer in knowing how the throws were obtained, and it is in accordance with the rules to identify when throws that involved penalties were recorded.

How much value is gained from those notes is another question.

Thats true. I just hate the circles because what what if it was a triple circle 10. Now how in the H#LL am i supposed to write a 10 in the box and then circle it 3 times??? If we must put something on the card i say we write the score and put a p or 2 or 3 or 9 or however many penalty strokes they took on that hole next to the score. it would be so much cleaner and easier to read then a triple circle 10 ( which by the way i watched a guy take on hole 12 Ewing during worlds :eek:)

I agree, a single circle or an asterisk in the box indicating an explanation would be better, but then we would have to get players to add the explanations to the cards.

The context of 804.03 refers to warnings and penalty throws given as a result of rules infractions, such as when another player calls a foot fault or courtesy violation, not an OB penalty which doesn't qualify as a rules infraction unless the player doesn't accept the penalty, i.e. if the player adds the penalty throw to their score, as the rule indicates, it's not an infraction. The 804.03 rule also says 'should' not 'must.' No circles or p's required for regular penalties like OB, lost, unplayable or 2m.

Sorry, my bad. I read "infractions" as throws added by penalties applied in accordance with the rules.

I should have said that's my interpretation and not an official ruling. After last year's USDGC, they're making super sized boxes on the scorecards to handle the circles :DSeems to me Rothstein might have the record at 9 circles on #12.

i've been reading this discussion for a while and the one thing i have to add is that it's helpful for a newbie like me who's not used to courses with OB to be able to look at my score from a round and say "I shot XX with all of my penalty strokes, but if I had more accuracy and didn't throw OB all of those times, it would have only been xx." To the less experienced player, a 54 with penalties means a lot different from a 54 without penalties. I understand that in round ratings, etc, a 54 is a 54... but when it comes to your personal game and improvement, knowing what your score was vs. how many throws you made can be a difference.

and that's why you can keep your own score on another scorecard....you don't hose up the one getting turned in and counted and you can make notes on the one YOU KEEP to study later.....
i do it on occasions with courses that give me problems so when i play it again i remind myself...