In the sense that the smallest adjustments can make a HUGE difference in results. I was driving at a field today and noticing the how these (what wouls seem like) minor changes in form made the disc fly completely different.

There's lots of room for improvement is the bottum line

Except for the fact that golf is WAY harder to get the hang of.
I doubt there is any pro golfers out there who have only been playing for a couple of years.

Disc golf is much easier to catch on to and become a respectable player. That can be achieved in less than a year with proper knowledge.

From the people I have talked to that can shoot around par or better on a standard par 72 18 hole golf course....it takes a long time and lots of practice to get to that level. A lot longer than disc golf anyways...

Maybe if the courses were as challenging as ball golf coursees......oh wait, thatd be way too expensive.

Maybe if the courses were as challenging as ball golf coursees......oh wait, thatd be way too expensive.



I love disc golf being "the poorman's golf" :cool:at least I can afford this and college at the same time.

Maybe if the courses were as challenging as ball golf coursees......oh wait, thatd be way too expensive.



This is not true... There are courses that could be compared in difficulty to that of a ball golf course. Depending on the available land and what the course designer does with that land will make the course harder or easier. A lot of courses though are designed with the recreational disc golfer in mind because there are many more of them then there are of us.

From the people I have talked to that can shoot around par or better on a standard par 72 18 hole golf course....it takes a long time and lots of practice to get to that level. A lot longer than disc golf anyways...



Ball golf and disc golf pars are not even close to the same thing. Ball golf par is MUCH MUCH MUCH harder to shoot and you have to have alot more BALL GOLF SKILLS to shoot it as well. Where as PAR on a disc golf course is 3 on every hole and you dont have to have much SKILL to shoot that number and par isnt even a good score on most of our courses. Now if everyone in our sport could shoot the SSA at most courses after 2 3 years then it would be easier then ball golf because our SSA is what PAR is in ball golf. It is what the PROS would shoot on average at that particular course.

Both sports are EXTREMEMLY hard to become GREAT at but anyone can do them casually.

Me being a ball and disc golfer I can tell you that both are very hard to become GREAT at but very easy to become good enough to enjoy playing.

I have also been thinking about this and agree that very small adjustments can make a big difference to the trained eye. The problem, as alluded to in the discussion of the normal disc golf course difficulty, is that comparitively easy disc golf course design tends not to punish minor flaws in our form.

For example, suppose you have a group of hackers watching three people throw 400 foot shots on an open field that land in the exact same spot. One player throws a low, beeline bullet with a very stable disc with no fade at the end. Another throws a big hyzer that skips 40 feet at the end. The final thrower throws an high S shot that skips 20 feet at the end. To the hackers, these shots seem identical: they went 400 feet and landed in the same spot. To more seasoned observers, these shots and the skill demonstrated might look far different. One might be very impressive, while the others are not.

The all-too-common scenario is that these shots are equally useful on many of our courses. However, in the future (and on some of the better present day courses), the difference between these shots/skills will be huge.

Anyways, I'm not sure if I was on topic, but in my recent attempt to fix flaws in my form, I have gained an appreciation on just how important small changes can yield small changes in flight patterns, which can translate into 3 strokes variation in score per round, maybe seven or so if the course is well-designed and challenging.

As well though, putting in disc golf is ALOT easier then putting in ball golf. I would liken our 20ft putt to a 5ft putt in ball golf. If you were to shrink our baskets by 1/2 the size, they would be similar.

But in another aspect that I was surprised did not come up so far, was the mental aspect of the game. On a recreational/casual level, both stick and disc golf are very relaxing and a great way to spend a sunny afternoon. But on the competitive level each style game demands mental rigidity that only comes in a few strong athletes. To me, I find if very common to find out that the good disc golfers that I meet locally and traveling at tournaments, were also succesful athletes in other sports. Two common prior sports I found were baseball (physical throwing motion advantage) and competitive track and cross country (mental advantage). I am sure there are former great football, basketball, hockey, etc. etc. players that are good disc golfers but the common thread is they are/were all athletes. I would argue that the players whom are good at disc golf and did not participate in sports would have excelled in something else if they tried.

So in end....disc golf in a way is like all sports :D

Sweeeet avatar NoLimit!!! Whered you find it???

To me the biggest difference, skill-wise between disc golf and ball golf is the short game. I think it takes a long time for both a DGer and a BGer to get reasonably controllable long shots, but in BG you also need a ton of work on your short game (putting, chipping, pitching, sand and rough) and there's really no equivalent for DG.

The importance of a short game is something I'd love to see in DG, but how to do it without a zillion trees, windmills, clown-mouths, bizarre mandos, and a really tough re-designed target?

Simply Put.... Discgolf IS not like Ballgolf... Let each one have it's advantages and harder parts.... TO compare the two is understandable but there is no reason for it... I don't want the game to be like ball golf.. I want it to be Disc Golf. IF i wanted to play ball golf i would play ball golf.

-Scott Lewis

It doesn't matter if you refuse ot believe it, but disc golf is a lot like ball golf. That's why they are both called golf. Many things are extremely similar in the way the games are played, and even more so in the mental approach of the players.

They are not exactly the same, nor could they ever be. Nor should there be an attempt to make them exactly the same.

But to try and claim that they are nothing alike is delusional.

and i didn't claim that they were nothing alike.. i merely said there realy is no reason to compare them since they aren't the same game.. each one has it's easier parts and harder parts...
Golf= distance
Discgolf = accuracy close range..
and blah blah blah

-Scott Lewis

I think there are a great number of good reasons to compare the two, based on how similar they are.

That being said, they are also different. But ball golf has been at it for hundreds of years, so we should look to ball golf for ideas so we don't have to repeat all the same mistakes. At the same time, we need to keep the differences in mind so we don't blindly do things to mimick ball that don't apply to disc.

But you said there was no reason to compare the two, and I completely disagree with that sentiment.

Essentially at the core, ball golf and disc golf have the same objective. To get from point A to point B in the least amount of strokes. They are both a lot of fun and nice outdoor activities. That's where most of the similarity ends though. In ball golf you hit a ball with a club. Right there that dramatically differentiates both sports. Since we throw the disc directly from our hands, our level of control is much greater and takes less time to get the hang of (not necissarily master). Ball golf is also a lot more expensive to play. Now if we hit the discs with a mallet to get them to fly, maybe there could be more comparisons.

Golf= distance
Discgolf = accuracy close range..
and blah blah blah



I cannot believe you just said this. What kind of courses are you playing??? Do you even play Ball Golf??? Ball golf IS NOT all about distance. Thats what long drive contests are for. These games are the SAME we just use different tools and techniques to accoplish the SAME GOAL. Navigate a set FAIRWAY to a GREEN and sink a PUTT with different Tools used on the TEE and in the FAIRWAY and on the GREEN and to get it in the HOLE!!!!!!!! That was prolly the worst discription i have EVER SEEN on this board.

Are you trying to say the guy who drives the furthest in Ball golf is the BEST??? If that was true i would prolly be a PRO ball golfer because i can drive the ball 300. The thing is its NOT true because I am a 7 handicap ball golfer and my dad who can only drive 250 yards is a scratch golfer and kicks my [*****] all over the freakin course. Oh wait and the reason he does that is because of his SHORT GAME. And what a coincedence that SHORT GAME= Accuracy from close range. Wow these sports are NOTHING alike.

Ball golf has paved the way and made all the mistakes a GOLF sport could make and i think we should follow in their footsteps except in the places where it obviously doesnt apply to our sport. But in all reality they made all our mistakes for us and all we have to do it mimick their competitive structure and we will be all set once we get the sponsorship and exposure that we want and need.

Sorry if that seemed harsh but i hate it when people say the 2 sports shouldnt be compared or contrasted or that they are not alike. I was and still am a ball golfer and a disc golfer. I love the sports for the same reasons and i dont like the ANTI BALL GOLF attitude that most disc golfers have.

DiscPimp Out

I think the original point of whoever brought up this thread is how much both sports rely on awesome technique over other things and how much slight changes in these techniques can result in massive results. Physical strength, being tall, team communication and other things are central elements of many other sports. The ball golf swing and discgolf swing is what determines the score everytime, and how well the swing comes out is due to technique and a proper mental understanding of the game. I don't think any other sport shares this aspect like they do. Which is what the original post was saying, so I'd agree with it.

Imo, another similarity is the integrity of the sports. I think the good players play more against themselves than the other players playing the tournament with them. Examples would be in ball golf when a player makes a foul that no one else would notice, like being in the rough and accidentally moving their ball when trying to clear some debris around it, they have to be the one to give themself the penalty, and I know of at least one time Tiger Woods did that. In discgolf, I've seen the pro's drive off a hard teepad together, one will get a good shot and the next one coming up will slap his hand.

On a side note I think the discgolf community is very outgoing and brotherly. Players helping other players with their game all the time. I don't know if ball golf is like this as much.

Players helping other players with their game all the time. I don't know if ball golf is like this as much.


As reported on the radio out here, somebody headed for the Masters earlier this week packed up their family and their entourage but somehow forgot their ball golf bag. The story says that this guy called up Tiger and asked him to pick it up for him and bring it. After laughing and giving him a hard time, Tiger agreed.

Sounds pretty close to me. :) The guys on the PGA tour just aren't in need of floorspace for a sleeping bag as they can easily afford a sweet hotel, but I bet on the minor league tours that stuff happens.

Players helping other players with their game all the time. I don't know if ball golf is like this as much.



Any sport you get into that has a competitive circuit or tournaments cicuit the players are always a tight knit group. I mean as soon as the competition begins they want to kill everyone there but before it starts and after its over they are all good friends for the most part :D

I played USTA Tennis tournaments and had tons of friends and what not that would have let me stay at their place if a tournament was near them and the same thing went for ball golf when i was looking into playing on the powerbuilt tour as a junior. I knew kids all over the state and even some out of state that would have let me stay with them if i needed to for a tournament :D

I think most disc golfers have a skuud (sound that out i dont know how to spell it :mad:) view of other sports and how they work and how the players associate with eachother because most disc golfers have never played another sport on any kind of a tournament level before or maybe even another sport at all.

NO offense Pimpin.. BUt you Obviously just hear/read what you want.. Why dont' you QUOTE my whole Reply....
----------
and i didn't claim that they were nothing alike.. i merely said there realy is no reason to compare them since they aren't the same game.. <<<<<<<<each one has it's easier parts and harder parts...
Golf= distance
Discgolf = accuracy close range..>>>>>>>>>>
and blah blah blah
---------------

Distance is easier in GOlf than learning the SHort game..
The short game is easier in Discgolf than learning how to throw further...
I have played Ball Golf.. I Used to play when i was in middle school and highschool, but didn't try out for the HS team because of the Bullcrap involved....

Read what you want.. Selective Reading???

If you are going to insult me at least read everything i had to say....

Yeah both games are similar.. But to want to make then the same is wrong... that was my point.. ofcourse they are similiar.. They both have the same concept. DUH

-Scott Lewis

is easier in GOlf than learning the SHort game..
The short game is easier in Discgolf than learning how to throw further...
I have played Ball Golf.. I Used to play when i was in middle school and highschool, but didn't try out for the HS team because of the Bullcrap involved....




That is NOT what you said. Maybe if that is what you said then i could have taken it that way. This is EXACTLY what you said

each one has it's easier parts and harder parts...
Golf= distance
Discgolf = accuracy close range..
and blah blah blah




You didnt say for example ball golf is hard to get distance and disc golf is hard to be accurate because if you did i wouldnt have said anything. You said
Golf=Disctance
Discgolf= Close range accuracy

That leads people to believe that Golf is about Distance and Disc Golf is about close range accuracy. If your going to rip me apart for taking your statement the wrong way maybe you should WRITE what you MEAN and do it in a way people other then yourself can understand it.

I believe, in general, that ball golf is harder.

Way harder.

or maybe you shouldn't ASSUME..
when you assume you make an ***** out of U and ME ...:D

NO hard feelings man... I don't really care either way.. I know what i said and now you know what i originally meant.. NO hard feelings boss.. I don't like fighting especially when there is miscommunication.

-Scott Lewis

I believe, in general, that ball golf is harder.



I dont disagree with that at all. I mean ANYONE with an arm can pick up a disc and play a round of disc golf ( and have fun) but not ANYONE with 2 arms can pick up a bag of clubs and play a ball golf round (and have fun)

NO hard feelings boss..



For sure man. I may come off as an [*****]hole but im really not. I just say what i believe and what i think. Im really a nice guy if you meet me in person :D

Atleast i think i am :confused:

Everyone has several good points, I don't want to object to what anyone has said, I also want to point out that I'm not gonna try to compare the two as to wich is harder. That being said I think that they are both "golf" and have alot of similarities, thats like trying to compare baseball and cricket. Although both use a ball and a bat, they're completely diff. Discgolfers use a disc instead of a ball and club, but do abbide by most of the same rules and regulations. If there is any point I'de like to make is that there are many skills,strategys,and do's and don'ts to be learned by playing or watching other sports. I love watching "ball golf" b/c the whole time I simply think that it's me w/ a disc in the same scenario as them w/ a club, what would I do here?
.......... Better yet, what would you do?

The GAME is the same. I know a lot of skilled throwers that have no understanding of the game and play poorly because of it. This happens in ball golf too. Other players said that Phil Mickelson didn't win the big ones because of his stubborness (tin cupping a lot of shots). Once he changed that he started winning.

Phil hasn't changed his game one bit, he is still aggressive and has one of the best short games in the sport. He has lately been executing his shots better but hasn't changed his game. Just my .02

He still will not win the Masters this year, it is Gooses turn!

HAHA..I love message boards.

I meant to point out the simularities between the two sports in terms of making small adjustment in form.

I play both ball golf and disc golf. I think they are very simular in the way that the importance of technique (regardless of which is harder to perform at a high level) influences your game. And the fact that the minot changes in grip, body position, follow through, etc...can make a big difference in your game

Yeah,
I would have to say Ball Golf is a Sport that technically speaking is more difficult than Disc Golf. I played Ball Golf for over 20yrs. And learning to draw the ball from right to left consisitently and accurately is harder to learn than throwing a Disc "draw" which would equivalent to a left to right shot for right handers.

Ball Golf is a great Sport that I wish I was able to still play. But honestly, Disc Golf has really won me over.

And incidentally, even though I believe Ball Golf is harder to learn for the most part, Disc Golf runs very close in its own unique difficulty.

Personally, to control a Disc is much easier than controlling a golf Ball. But distance in Ball Golf was much easier for me to learn than getting distance with a Disc.

I would rate both Ball Golf and Disc Golf the two hardest endeavours I have ever taken on. Harder than mastering College Integral Calculus. Harder than learning to ski. Harder than learning to drive a car . Harder than mountain climbing.
Even Harder than figuring out the Meaning of Life ;)

the distance in skill level separating the very best pros from the enthusiastic AM.s is about the same.

both involve trying to "hole out" in as few strokes as possible.

1 costs a fortune to play, the other doesn't.

one involves the incredible beauty of a disc in flight, the other uses balls.

viva la difference!

Im really a nice guy if you meet me in person :D




I played a round with him at BG and I have to agree with him. I expected him to be a show off, but in person he was modest and easy to get along with -- my message board preconceptions about him turned out to be skewed.
If he continues finishing well and improving he may very well be sponsored by Discraft soon. And -- if his attitude at BG during round 3 was any indication -- he will represent them very well.

Hey Steve -- remember when your disc was resting on top of the basket (DROT) and then fell in when we putted out? :D :D

The other players are the ones saying that about Phil's game. It wasn't my opinion.

Ball golf is much harder:

1. you have to make at least $250,000 annual salary to be allowed on the premises

2. You have to be color blind to dress that poorly. Yellow plaid pants and green shirt are very hard to wear.

3. The reflection from the yellow plaid pants can affect your vision making it hard to putt.

I played a round with him at BG and I have to agree with him. I expected him to be a show off, but in person he was modest and easy to get along with -- my message board preconceptions about him turned out to be skewed.

<font color="orange"> Dont feel bad its pretty much the same way for everyone else who meets me in person </font>

If he continues finishing well and improving he may very well be sponsored by Discraft soon. And -- if his attitude at BG during round 3 was any indication -- he will represent them very well. <font color="orange"> Thanks you very much. This is the best compliment i have gotten all year </font>

Hey Steve -- remember when your disc was resting on top of the basket (DROT) and then fell in when we putted out? <font color="orange"> Yes I do remember that. If it wasnt for that putt dropping in I wouldnt have had a bogey free day :D</font>

[
Hey Steve -- remember when your disc was resting on top of the basket (DROT) and then fell in when we putted out? <font color="orange"> Yes I do remember that. If it wasnt for that putt dropping in I wouldnt have had a bogey free day :D</font>

[/QUOTE]

[/QUOTE]

it came to REST?

it came to REST?



Yeah!!! Whats that got to do with anything. There were still three putts that had to be made before i had to finish putting. Just like it if came to rest above 2 meters and then got blown down or knocked our by another disc :D

Sorry
thats not the rule anymore.

Maybe you should read the rules for THIS YEAR.

Dam n AMs...

Actually there were no new RULES for 2005. They are waiting till 2006. What would you say the rules are then??? Im allowed to leave my disc where ever it stops untill it it my turn to throw again. Whatever happens to my disc in that period of time will just be considered part of my last shot.

If its not the rule and im just a [email protected] am then what is the rule MR annonymous user???

"The short answer is that it will take you one more throw to complete the hole. Formerly, you could leave it up there and give other players the chance to save you a stroke, but the rule that allowed that (in which a disc struck by another disc was played from its new lie) has been changed. Now, if a disc at rest is struck by another disc, it is returned to its original lie.

Since the person whose disc is on top has no chance of saving the stroke, it is reasonable to ask him to mark it if it may become a distraction.

Yours Sincerely, The PDGA Rules Committee "

Thank youCome again.

My disc was never hit by another disc so that really doesnt apply. Thank you for your time and have a nice day :D

Thank youCome agian.



Actually thank YOU for making an ***** out of yourself by not knowing the entire story and not being there. :eek:

Have a very nice day :D

I know that your disc was "RESTING" on top.


Why do you have to get so defensive and act like an "*****"?

I know that your disc was "RESTING" on top.


Why do you have to get so defensive and act like an "[*****]"?



First off I dont like it when people imply that I cheat and dont know the rules. Second off I do know the rules and was in complete accordance with them. Third off your the one who came on here while we were having fun and tried to make me look like an *****. Then you proceeded to say thanks come again. Now go back and reread the thread and see who was being as *****.

Dont get mad because your little plan backfired and you were wrong. Just take it like a man.

Thank you and have a nice day :D

First off I dont like it when people imply that I cheat and dont know the rules. Second off I do know the rules and was in complete accordance with them.




I was just trying to let you know that the rule changed.

What purpose did that post serve???

Steve,

If you don't mind, could you recount the sequence of events that occured in this situation? After the disc landed on top of the Discatcher, what happened? How long after it landed there did it fall through?

As obnoxious as you may think this Jmi_James is, he may have a point that the incorrect call might have been made. It could probably be strongly argued either way, especially based on the limited knowledge of the incident that has been reported so far. That's why I ask for the details...for clarity.

As a competitor in your division last weekend, I obviously am curious how the sequence of events unfolded and whether or not the correct call was made (not that it would have made any difference to me, you beat me by 3 strokes anyhow). I'm sure whatever happened, it was all done in good faith and it's of no consequence now that the tournament is over and done. I'm just fascinated by these kind of rules dilemmas and discussions, and know that others can certainly learn from this experience.

Thanks...

--Josh

"Hey Steve -- remember when your disc was resting on top of the basket (DROT) and then fell in when we putted out?
Yes I do remember that. If it wasnt for that putt dropping in I wouldnt have had a bogey free day"

As obnoxious as you may think this Jmi_James is, he may have a point that the incorrect call might have been made. It could probably be strongly argued either way, especially based on the limited knowledge of the incident that has been reported so far. That's why I ask for the details...for clarity.



Here we go.

We are playing the 500 ft hole at Lovers Lane. I throw my drive like crap so i have about a 200 ft approach I would say. I pull out my Crystal Z Challenger and throw it all the way to the fence line. I proceed to take my meter in and attempt to make a jump putt. The disc lands on top and it about halfway inside the basket and halfway out of the top. The disc is almost vertical at this point and the wind is still moving it slightly. The group says just leave it we will go ahead and putt out and see if it falls threw. The group proceeds to putt. I believe Rob made his putt and nothing happend. Then another guy in our group throws his putt and it hits the chains and goes out the back and my disc falls threw the top and comes to rest in the chains. No chastidy belt was hit. My disc was not touched by another disc nor was it touched by me untill i pulled it out of the chains. The entire group agrees that I got a three on the hole and we proceed to finish the rest of our round.

I dont see how I broke any rules in that situation.

"Hey Steve -- remember when your disc was resting on top of the basket (DROT) and then fell in when we putted out?
Yes I do remember that. If it wasnt for that putt dropping in I wouldnt have had a bogey free day"



Another useless post. All of us already read that when it was posted the first time :confused:

The disc is almost vertical at this point and the wind is still moving it slightly.



So your disc never came to rest and your group continued to play?

So your disc never came to rest and your group continued to play?



When I walked up to look at it and mark it it was still moving. We waited a few seconds till it wasnt moving and they said I didnt have ot mark it that i could just leave it there while they finished putting. I was the closest to the hole so therefore they had to hole out before it was my turn to mark my lie and take my shot anyway. Anything that happens between that time is considered to be part of the last shot as far as the rules say.

it came to REST?



Yeah!!! Whats that got to do with anything. There were still three putts that had to be made before i had to finish putting. Just like it if came to rest above 2 meters and then got blown down or knocked our by another disc :D



Ok
so it didn't come to rest?
Get your story straight.

Ok
so it didn't come to rest?
Get your story straight.



Im done trying to deal with this annonymous sissy. It was a legal and correct call so just get over the fact that your little plan back fired Mr i like to hide behind a screen and a fake name and then imply people are cheaters :mad:

So your disc never came to rest and your group continued to play?



When I walked up to look at it and mark it it was still moving. We waited a few seconds till it wasnt moving and they said I didnt have ot mark it that i could just leave it there while they finished putting. I was the closest to the hole so therefore they had to hole out before it was my turn to mark my lie and take my shot anyway. Anything that happens between that time is considered to be part of the last shot as far as the rules say.



Gotta disagree here. You say it stopped moving, therefore it came to rest and your 3rd throw ended. Should have been a 4. I can't believe no one asked you to mark it. If they had, you would have had to mark it.

Loophole around this: Was the disc touching any of the chains as it sat on top? If so, you could claim the disc was being supported by the chains, and a made putt.

annonymous sissy?
TRIM
JMi
If that doesn't help ask your boy EOG

And again my "PLAN" was to inform you of the rule.

Gotta disagree here. You say it stopped moving, therefore it came to rest and your 3rd throw ended.



This is not true. The rules state that as long as it wasnt assisted by another player or a spectator that it is completely legal. It was an old Discatcher with added inner chains so it was probably touching 1 of those chains. How is this illegal???

Thanks for the details Steve.

The situation isn't specifically spelled out in the rule book and it isn't specifically addressed in the Rules Q & A on this website, so it takes some interpretation to get to a solution.

Just as an exercise, this is what I think are the applicable rules:

800 PREFACE ...In using these rules, players should apply the rule that most directly addresses the situation in question. If in doubt, players should consult an official.



803.06 INTERFERENCE B. If a disc at rest on the playing surface is moved, the disc shall be replaced as close as possible to its original location, as determined by a majority of the group or an official. If a marker disc is moved, the marker disc shall be replaced as close as possible to its original location, as determined by a majority of the group or an official. See also 803.07 C and D for movement of a disc above the playing surface.



803.07 DISC ABOVE THE PLAYING SURFACE C. No penalty shall be incurred if the disc falls, unassisted by a player or spectator, to a position less than two meters above the playing surface before the thrower arrives at the disc. The thrower may not delay in order to allow the position of the disc to improve.



Since we have established that the disc was most definitely at rest on top of the basket, the only real question is whether or not the disc fell un-assisted or not. While there was no direct contact with the disc, I think it's clear that the second putt (the one that cut through the chains right before the disc fell) may have jostled the chain assembly enough as it passed through to cause Steve's disc to fall. So with that said, I'd say that the disc was interfered with according to 803.06 B and should be replaced at its previous location (or marked directly underneath that location on the playing surface). But I admit that that interpretation definitely a stretch and could easily be dismissed...making the group's actual decision the only real correct one.

All that said, Steve, you had a very cool group to let you leave the disc hanging while they putted out. They were well within their rights to ask you to mark it and putt out for your four before they putted themselves (Rules Q & A: Disc resting on top (DROT) (http://www.pdga.com/rules/qa.php)). Had I been in Rob's place as the first to putt after you, I would have asked you to clear it before attempting my putt. My reasoning would be the same as requesting you clear a made putt from the bottom of the basket: I want to eliminate the chance of missing my putt because of your disc.

As I said before, everyone in the group acted in good faith, and as far as I can tell, did the correct thing (except for the possibility of playing a provisional and asking the course TD for a ruling following the round).

--Josh

Gotta disagree here. You say it stopped moving, therefore it came to rest and your 3rd throw ended.



This is not true. The rules state that as long as it wasnt assisted by another player or a spectator that it is completely legal. It was an old Discatcher with added inner chains so it was probably touching 1 of those chains. How is this illegal???



This isn't clear, Steve. Which is why I asked if it was in contact with the chains. If it was touching one of the chains, I'd be willing to give it to you, under the strict interpretation of the rules
(ie, "supported by the chains = made putt"). However, under the circumstances presented and evidence given, Josh's interpretation is correct, IMO. Assistance was given by another player via his disc.

The problem with that however, lies in the ruling that a disc at rest in a tree (over 2m) can be moved and its new location considered "where it lies," avoiding the 2m penalty. However, I think (which can be dangerous), that a disc that comes to rest on a road marked OB is always OB, even if a car/dog/spectator comes along and kicks it back inbounds.

Well there is no real rule for this situation so it all reality the benefit of doubt always goes in favor of the thrower. It Could have been the WIND that moved the disc enough for it to fall and the fact that the first putt hit the chains and the pole at the bottom of the basket and the disc didnt fall would lead you to believe it may NOT have been the putt that made it fall. There is no way to tell EXACTLY what made the disc fall. The only think i know for sure is that another disc DIDNT touch it and no other PLAYER touched me disc to make it fall into the basket. Therefore i apply the rule that has to do with a disc above the playing surface falling to the ground just in this case it happend to fall into the basket. My group made the decision not me so thats what we went with. No one in the group had any problem with it and they all seemed to interpret the rule the same.

This is a large GREY area in our rules and people interpret rules in different ways so i guess i just got lucky by having a good group :D

The situation isn't specifically spelled out in the rule book and it isn't specifically addressed in the Rules Q & A on this website, so it takes some interpretation to get to a solution.



Agreed.


Since we have established that the disc was most definitely at rest on top of the basket, the only real question is whether or not the disc fell un-assisted or not.



Actually that's not the only real question. The rule for interference says "at rest on the playing surface". The disc on top is clearly NOT on the playing surface, otherwise, we would always have to mark on top of the basket and putt from on top of the basket in the case of a DROT. :)

So if it's not on the playing surface then interference doesn't STRICTLY apply.

You also quote from the "disc above the surface" rule. This rule doesn't appear to be intended for this situation, but even if it were, it says the disc must fall "unassisted by a player". In this case, it's pretty clear the disc WAS assisted by a player albeit indirectly (assistance doesn't have to be intentional). So you can't really use this rule to say the putt should count.

My view is that this is just another case of poorly worded rules. There is no reason that the words "on the playing surface" should be in the interference rule. It only causes conflicts. Therefore I would rule that the overall intent of the Rules is that this specific situation be covered by Interference, and therefore the putt does not count.

I mean, what if a disc is 1.5m up in a bush, and another player hits the same bush (or even the disc itself), dislodging the disc, and it falls to the ground and then rolls 70 feet down a hill, possibly into OB? This appears to call for Interference and the disc to be replaced; however, it wasn't on the playing surface, so Interference doesn't strictly apply. :confused: :confused:

My view is that this is just another case of poorly worded rules. There is no reason that the words "on the playing surface" should be in the interference rule.



Or, have "playing surface" defined. :)




I wish Bowling Green had been televised. Then I could have called in and complained.... :D

<font size=1>Just kidding...</font>

Actually that's not the only real question. The rule for interference says "at rest on the playing surface". The disc on top is clearly NOT on the playing surface, otherwise, we would always have to mark on top of the basket and putt from on top of the basket in the case of a DROT. :)


We went through this pretty thoroughly two interations ago of the topic of DROT. The Rules Committee ruled that a DROT disc is not a "disc above the playing surface." Yes, they really did.

The ramifications of the ruling are this: if a DROT is a disc above the playing surface, then if the disc falls (on its own or due to wind or due to competitively thrown disc) into the basket it counts. If that were the case, it would mean that a DROT disc would be played wherever the new place it came to rest was after it had been moved from DROT. This is how a disc could fall from the top to the basket and count.

What it also means is that if your disc is DROT and another disc nails it, and then your disc falls off the basket and rolls 200 feet down a hill and into an OB lake, then you would get an OB stroke.

That's why a DROT disc is not a disc above the playing surface.

So Rhett,

For those of us who are a little slower than average, that means the shot counted?

Also, what exactly is the ruling on making a player mark their disc? I know that you can play from the thrown disc as opposed to using a mini and that interfering items can be moved but is there a rule that specifically address a DROT and moving it? I'm going to the rules now.

I second Lyle's request for clarification from Rhett.

And Lyle, if I ask you to mark your disc, you have to mark it. 803.06A, last sentence.

At minimum, the players in the group should have gotten a courtesy warning from everyone else in the Advanced division for not asking Steve to mark (801.01C), not that it would change anything.

I was pretty confident there was, I just couldn't remember it. Thanks Tony.

We went through this pretty thoroughly two interations ago of the topic of DROT. The Rules Committee ruled that a DROT disc is not a "disc above the playing surface." Yes, they really did.



Well there's no accounting for stupidity of committees I guess. :eek:

I'm just going to assume you also covered why you would mark a DROT below the basket before you take your next shot. I mean, if it's not a disc above the surface, BY WHAT RULE IN THE BOOK (or in the Q&amp;A which is not a part of the rules anyway) do you place your marker and throw from beneath it??? :confused: :confused:

It's not a disc above the surface? And it's not a disc on the surface? So it's null? :confused: :confused:



The ramifications of the ruling are this: if a DROT is a disc above the playing surface, then if the disc falls (on its own or due to wind or due to competitively thrown disc) into the basket it counts.

If that were the case, it would mean that a DROT disc would be played wherever the new place it came to rest was after it had been moved from DROT. This is how a disc could fall from the top to the basket and count.

What it also means is that if your disc is DROT and another disc nails it, and then your disc falls off the basket and rolls 200 feet down a hill and into an OB lake, then you would get an OB stroke.

That's why a DROT disc is not a disc above the playing surface.



I have no idea why you bring up "competitively thrown disc" here. Am I missing some rule that says a disc doesn't need to be replaced if it is moved by a competitively thrown disc?


Anyway what a holy load of crap. It's obvious it isn't covered adequately and has been "resolved" previously, so I'll just recuse myself from further discussion on this one.

Sorry for the awkward wording in the last post. :o

The long and the short of it is this: a DROT disc is played the same as a disc at rest on the playing surface. If it moves or is knocked around, it is replaced to where it was previosly.

The reason it is not played as a disc above the playing surface is because that would require you to play the disc wherever it finally comes to rest if it gets knocked around. That is, if your disc is DROT and my putt knocks it down and your disc rolls 200 feet down a hill and into an OB lake, you wouldn't want to get a stroke for that, would you? And you don't.

If you want a DROT that gets knocked down and into the basket to count, then you also would have to take the results of wherever the disc ends up if it isn't knocked into the basket.

So in the tournament scenario above, the score should have been a bogey.

How much is snowboarding like skiing.Disc golf is the snowboard of golf .What other sport has birdies ,bogies, pars, double bogie and aces or hole in ones.The rules are the fewest strokes to complete the hole.GOLF is our father.... :o

I can see that big pimpin has some problems with the concept.The reason I build, is so that players that have a natural talent like yourself, will one day be treated like an atheleate ,on the pedistal they deserve. You must play a fly style to understand the big picture.....If you are in a town that has one of my 7 courses call me and I will treat you to an experience free with cart.18 the only to fly......>>>>>>

So how much is disc golf like ball golf???

So in the tournament scenario above, the score should have been a bogey.



Even if the disc is HALF in and HALF out of the basket and probably touching part of the chains??? Plus on top of that there is no way to PROVE that is was the putt that made it fall because there was a putt made before it fell as well as when it fell. So how you can prove that it was a direct result of the second putt when the first putt did nothing at all??? Hey ive got an idea. MAYBE if companies would make baskets that didnt have big enough holes in the top for discs to go threw we would have never had this disscusion in the first place :eek:

So in the tournament scenario above, the score should have been a bogey.



Even if the disc is HALF in and HALF out of the basket and probably touching part of the chains??? Plus on top of that there is no way to PROVE that is was the putt that made it fall because there was a putt made before it fell as well as when it fell. So how you can prove that it was a direct result of the second putt when the first putt did nothing at all??? Hey ive got an idea. MAYBE if companies would make baskets that didnt have big enough holes in the top for discs to go threw we would have never had this disscusion in the first place :eek:



Proof? Simple. At where and what angle did the first putt hit the chains? The second? The first may not have struck in a place that affected your disc. Both could have been involved, each moving it a little way with the second being the difference maker.

Even if the disc is HALF in and.....


You didn't read my post.

Your disc was DROT. Disc RESTING on Top. Under the PDGA rules if it moves, you replace it to where it was. It doesn't matter if it moves by the wind, by "itself" (hard to do since it was at rest), or by another competitively thrown disc. You do that if it moves into the basket or if it moves and rolls down a giant hill and ends up 200 feet away. You put it back where it was.

Even if the disc is HALF in and HALF out of the basket and probably touching part of the chains???


Please consult the Rules Q&A, which is accessible by clicking "Rules" link at the top of the page, then clicking the "Rules Q&A" on that page.

Then select "Disc resting on top (DROT)" from the drop down menu. This exact situation is fully addressed by the Rules Committee in that answer.

You should have carded a 4 on that hole.

I think Steve should get stroked for going out of turn. His 3rd shot was the putt that landed DROT. Then it was somebody else's turn, then another. Then Steve's disc dropped into the basket, BUT IT WASN'T HIS TURN.

So yeah, the putt went in, but he had to take it back out, take one stroke for going out of turn, that's 4, and then when it was his turn he could make the legal putt, that's a 5.

I have played Ball golf only a number of times and didn't enjoy it primarily because of the expense, and the snobbery. Disc is basically free- no greens fees cheap equipment, cheap Member's fee. In terms of technique I would say that everything's just bigger. Bigger object in play, bigger target, bigger muscle groups in use. As such the connection to the body is more immediate. Learning to swing in BG is a little bit like learning to cross stitch. Don't get me wrong, I someday hope to make millions on the Professional Cross Stitch Tour. PCST forever baby! YEAH!

803.07 DISC ABOVE THE PLAYING SURFACE C. No penalty shall be incurred if the disc falls, unassisted by a player or spectator, to a position less than two meters above the playing surface before the thrower arrives at the disc. The thrower may not delay in order to allow the position of the disc to improve.

Wouldn't this be the rule that would be in affect? The Pimp intentionally delayed marking or playing his disc in order to allow its position to improve. I am not saying the Pimp had any malice in this event, and I may have done the same thing prior to examining the scenario. This rule however seems to make the original ruling very questionable at best though.

Wouldn't this be the rule that would be in affect? The Pimp intentionally delayed marking or playing his disc in order to allow its position to improve.



I didnt intentionally do anything. I made my shot then waited for the people who were AWAY to finish and my disc feel down before it was my turn to play.

803.07 is the 2 meter rule. It's not the rule for DROT. The DROT is under 2 meters.

Duh.

Also the spelling is "in effect" not "in affect."

Duh.

Even if the disc is HALF in and HALF out of the basket and probably touching part of the chains???


Please consult the Rules Q&A, which is accessible by clicking "Rules" link at the top of the page, then clicking the "Rules Q&A" on that page.

Then select "Disc resting on top (DROT)" from the drop down menu. This exact situation is fully addressed by the Rules Committee in that answer.

You should have carded a 4 on that hole.

Please consult the Rules Q&A, which is accessible by clicking "Rules" link at the top of the page, then clicking the "Rules Q&A" on that page.

Then select "Disc resting on top (DROT)" from the drop down menu. This exact situation is fully addressed by the Rules Committee in that answer.

You should have carded a 4 on that hole.

i knew he didn't really tie me...

Formerly, you could leave it up there and give other players the chance to save you a stroke, but the rule that allowed that (in which a disc struck by another disc was played from its new lie) has been changed. Now, if a disc at rest is struck by another disc, it is returned to its original lie.




That rule doesnt apply to this situation because my disc was NEVER touched by another disc. So really this rule does not apply and i carded a correct 3. Just because rhett thinks that he is the almight god of rules and thats the way he would have called it doesnt mean anything. The fact of the matter is I threw my putt the other guys putt out and my disc fell into the chains before it was my turn to play.

Are you actually reading what Rhett is saying?

You admitted your disc stopped moving, therefore is was at rest AND on the playing surface.

It then moved, irregardless of how, into the basket.

Because it was at rest, it should have been returned to its last location and play continuing from there.

Read the Rules Q&A...


Rule Question: Disc resting on top (DROT)
Question: I putted and my disc stayed on top of the basket. Now what?
Applicable rules: 803.12, 803.06.B

The short answer is that it will take you one more throw to complete the hole. Formerly, you could leave it up there and give other players the chance to save you a stroke, but the rule that allowed that (in which a disc struck by another disc was played from its new lie) has been changed. Now, if a disc at rest is struck by another disc, it is returned to its original lie.

Since the person whose disc is on top has no chance of saving the stroke, it is reasonable to ask him to mark it if it may become a distraction.

Yours Sincerely, The PDGA Rules Committee

Dr. Rick Voakes
Harold Duvall
Joe Garcia
John Chapman
Conrad Damon
Carlton Howard

it came to REST?



Yeah!!! Whats that got to do with anything. There were still three putts that had to be made before i had to finish putting. Just like it if came to rest above 2 meters and then got blown down or knocked our by another disc :D



Exactly!

Still wrong. He said if struck by another disc it would have to be moved back to original location. This is not the case. If you throw your drive and it stops moving and the wind picks up and blows it away you dont get to put it back there you THOUGHT it was. This rule specifically states
in which a disc struck by another disc was played from its new lie) has been changed. Now, if a disc at rest is struck by another disc, it is returned to its original lie.




My disc was NEVER touched by another disc. This rule does not apply.

first off, let me clarify that i was kidding (sorry i don't use emoticons). if you look at rhett's post it doesn't matter that it wasn't struck, your disc was deemed DROT and therefore should have been marked below the basket.

i don't think anyone is seriously calling you a cheater, just clarifying this rules issue. hopefully in the future the right call will be made.

its clear that the rules commitee has already addressed the situation:
Please consult the Rules Q&A, which is accessible by clicking "Rules" link at the top of the page, then clicking the "Rules Q&A" on that page.

Then select "Disc resting on top (DROT)" from the drop down menu. This exact situation is fully addressed by the Rules Committee in that answer.

You should have carded a 4 on that hole.

So are you guys saying if your disc is resting in a tree and the wind blows it down then you still have to take the 2 meter penalty if the rule is in effect??? I dont think you guys undestand my disc was never struck by anything.

it doesn't matter, im not talking about disc above the playing surface, we're talking about DROT:


Question: I putted and my disc stayed on top of the basket. Now what?
Applicable rules: 803.12, 803.06.B

The short answer is that it will take you one more throw to complete the hole. Formerly, you could leave it up there and give other players the chance to save you a stroke, but the rule that allowed that (in which a disc struck by another disc was played from its new lie) has been changed. Now, if a disc at rest is struck by another disc, it is returned to its original lie.

Since the person whose disc is on top has no chance of saving the stroke, it is reasonable to ask him to mark it if it may become a distraction.

Yours Sincerely, The PDGA Rules Committee

Dr. Rick Voakes
Harold Duvall
Joe Garcia
John Chapman
Conrad Damon
Carlton Howard


thats about as clear-cut for your situation as you can ask

So are you guys saying if your disc is resting in a tree and the wind blows it down then you still have to take the 2 meter penalty if the rule is in effect??? I dont think you guys undestand my disc was never struck by anything.



DROTs are different than the 2MR situations. That is what we (and the Rules and the Rules Committee) are saying.

That is why the RULES are NOT CONSISTENT. Same situation different rule!!! Stuck on top of basket or bench or table or in tree. ALL ABOVE THE PLAYING SURFACE. Why is it any different on a basket??? Oh wait though. If the PDGA wouldnt have allowed Innova to make baskets where discs could fall threw the top then none of this would have happend in the first place. Wow it looks like maybe the PDGA should have inspected these targets a little bit more before they APPROVED them for sanctioned play.

ssssttttttuuuuuuuuuuuuuppppppppppiiiiiiiiiiiiiiidd dddddddd

Blame the rules. Blame the organization. Blame the manufacturer.

It still should have been a four.

Ok whatever. I dont really care. We made a group decision on something that isnt even in our rule book right now and that decision gave me a three.

Wow it looks like maybe the PDGA should have inspected these targets a little bit more before they APPROVED them for sanctioned play.



I agree, putts falling through the top or discs sticking in the side is a basket design flaw in my book. They should not be approved for competition.

Ok whatever. I dont really care. We made a group decision on something that isnt even in our rule book right now and that decision gave me a three.


Pimp,

This is a serious question: are you incapable of reading and comprehending the "Rules Q&A" entry? Can you seriously not see that it addresses the exact situation you were in?

Can't you see that you played it wrong? Something like "I guess we blew that call. I'll play it right next time." seems like it should be in order.

Do you think i had a wireless laptop on the course so i could check it. That wasnt the rule in 2004 and wasnt a rule in the rulebook i got when i joined. Hence nothing in the rulebook. There will be a new rulebook coming out in 2006 so then it can be considered a rule since they said there were NO rule changes for 2005.

The fact that a disc resting on top of the basket is treated and played differently from a disc above the playing surface is completely rediculous and assinine.

Then you are using THIS statement to say the rule applys
Now, if a disc at rest is struck by another disc, it is returned to its original lie.




My disc was NEVER TOUCHED BY ANOTHER DISC so why would i have to replace it to the original lie???

but here you go Rhett. Sorry we blew the call ill play it right the next time.

Pimp, to say your disc wasn't touched by another disc is huge cop out. I mean the 2nd disc had to disturb it in some way for it to fall. While I am not saying that the 2 discs touched plastic to plastic... there was some sort of assistance involved. To say that they never made contact would be like stroking a ball golfer for taking a good bunker shot in which the club never contacted the ball, but only the sand behind it. Or if your disc had mud on it and therefore only the mud touched it and not your disc. The putt thrown caused the disc to move and it seems clear that this situation is clearly defined by the rules. The moral of the story is that no matter what the correct ruling is, your position in the tournament can't change. You have just started getting some respect from people around here for your integrity. Why mess it up to argue a call that can't be reversed anyway. Mistakes happen... is it worth "being right" if it involves losing the respect of others?

This is not a new change. The rule that requires replacing a moved disc that was at rest was put in a while ago.


I do not disagree with you on how it should be handled. The reason I know this is because I have argued that all discs above the playing surface should be played the same, but they are not.

The Rules Commitee made a ruling that discs above two meters are treated differently than discs less than 2 meters above the playing surface. (I can't find a link.)

What they said was basically this: since a disc above 2 meters is a penalty situation, and you can't really tell if the disc was truly at rest or slowly working free from from the branches, you don't get a penalty until you mark the disc directly below. If the disc happens to come down before you mark it, you play it wherever it comes to rest. Since it was a penalty before it fell, any bad luck or bad roll when it hits the ground is fair. (My take on it.)

Then they blew me away by saying that if a disc was suspended less than 2 meters and moved, it should be replaced as close as possible as decided by the group. I find this to be a contradiction to the above 2 meters interpretation because all the same things about not knowing if the disc is slowly working its way out are in play, but there is no penalty invloved.

This is the interpretation they used to decide that a Disc Resting On Top of the basket that moved should be replaced.

Ok. We played the rule wrong and im sorry we did it that way.

Next time. IF there is a next time i will mark it directly below and take the extra stroke.

Although I still think this is the most assinine rule on the planet.

Much discussed. Well obviously ball golf came along first, since the frisbee wasn't invented yet. Disc Golf being a convergence of 2 previous sports - Frisbee and Golf. We all know the origin of Frisbee thanks to Mr. Headrick. Golf is actually a scottish term meaning "Club". Man has been beating about with clubs since the dawn of history. so safe to say golf has evolved through time, it became a formal gentlemans sport in the 1700's.

Disc golf is not necessarily easier or harder in my opinion, it is just what it is. I have played both sports now for many years and I find disc golf to be a much more satisfing sport. I like to be connected to my object. I love the beauty of the flight path and more direct control I can impart on a disc.

Disc golf bring roughly 30 years old does remind me a lot of the way skateboarding evolved out of surfing. Since surfing has been a "sport" since man walked on a beach. Interestingly snowboarding seems to evolved more from Skate boarding than skiing. So it seems as sports "evolve" they tend to combine and spur new sports.

Disc golf I hope will grow to the same level of play as ball golf. Our future is bright and will continue to explode as we gain sponsorships and grow the sport at local levels. Get involved with your local parks departments. Help your local club get sponsors and watch our sport flourish!

Good post.

In Ball Golf , you play to avoid obsticals.

In Disc Golf , You throw around Obsticals.

(sorry about the miss spelling )

Same rules apply...............except the Stroke and Distance Rule.

You really appreciate the similarity when you get a pretty good drive, and you sit there looking at your second shot, wondering if you should play that as a difficult birdie opportunity, or an easy par shot. (I hate comeback putts)

Once you have mastered basic technical stuff, the mental parts of playing well make the two games almost identical.

IMHO, of course.

Who is the guy with the fat cigar that plays golf ?

Here are a few HUGE differences that, for me, play a large part in
differentiating the two sports:
1. In disc golf, the disc is the ball and the club.
2. A disc can be made to do things that cannot be done by a ball.
3. Disc golf is a throwing sport rather than a ball-striking sport.
4. There is the potential for far more control of a disc than a ball (especially a ball hit by a club).

The Biggest Difference is :

The Winner in Disc Golf , sometimes makes it in the paper.

Cash purse : Around $ 1,000 dollars to Max $ 14,000 ?

Give or take few hundred here and there.

Now : In Ball Golf , The Winner makes it in the paper , radio ,
ESPN both FSN and Sports weekly , and other publications.

The Winner in Ball golf can get anywhere from $ 250,000 to over a Million dollars for 4 days work !!!!!!

CHA CHING !!!!!!!! :D

It is not necessary to get into the technical differences between the two (golf and disc golf). I think that everybody realizes that you don't carry clubs in disc golf, but that is being a little picky.

The goal is to get the object (disc or ball) into a target (hole or basket).

Both games are played in a similar environment....the open woods and fields.

Both games require skills which can only be attained by practice.

Most importantly....both games are very "psychological." The state of the player's mind is a very big influence on his or her success.

Training programs for both are alike. Open fields are your driving ranges. Back yards are putting greens.

We can argue until the cows come home how they are alike, or how they are different. The important thing is that we play.

I don't see it as picky at all. In fact, I had a long-running argument in here with someone once who said disc golf was exactly like ball golf, which it obviously isn't.
Stating the obvious became necessary, and the biggest differences happen to be the most obvious ones.
:D

This is like asking how much a human heart is like a donkey heart. Different blueprints, same function. All differences stem from human vs. donkey (disc vs. ball/club).

Except that disc golf is clearly superior. :D

Thank you all for the amazing thread drift and subsequent renewal of this thread. I spent a solid chunk of time reading this whole thread.

I think Skooled has a good point, like ball golf minute changes in your form have profound impact in disc golf. Great observation.

Case in point: Today at afternoon skins I drove the first 5 or 6 holes like garbage. Then I realized I wasn't reaching back far enough during my drive. Next hole I fixed it and parked a 400 foot hole (granted there is a pretty good elevation change for me to be able to throw that far, but still). That one very minor change added about 150-200 feet on my drive.

Great thread. I think there are some striking similiarities between the two.One really big one is the difficulty to acheive a significant amount of consistency in either sport.

Disc golf and Ball Golf are unlike any other human endeavors on this Earth in my opinion.

For instance I am also a musician. I have been playing drums for many years now.Whenever I learned a complicated rhythm like a Latin Songa beat it seemed impossible when I first sat down on my drum kit. But after a few days of working on it I would eventually get it and it would NEVER be lost in my head or my hands again.
I have literally not played the drum beat in years and will pick up the sticks and immediately start playing the complicated rhythm effortlessly.

But not in Ball or Disc Golf. You can literally be practicing for months upon months and be throwing great. Your turnover anhyzers are flying perfectly around that sharp corner in the woods.Everyday you are practicing this shot and you have gotten to the point where it is flying your desired path everytime. Just like when I learned and mastered the complicated Latin beat on my drums.
But then one day you get out there and all of the sudden you throw a 50ft worm burner from the tee. And then you pull your "impeccable turnover shot" straight to the right and into the woods. And this coming right after you nailed a 35 ft. putt like a Pro on the previous hole.

In my 20+yrs. in Ball Golf there were periods of time where the more I practiced I absolutely got worse !!!

I think alot has to do with psycholgical factors. And I also think as you said before that both Sports depend on extreme preciseness. If your throw or hit is a centimeter or two off ,
your Disc or Ball can literally fly straight off to the right.

And lastly I believe that if you think you can master either sport then you will be pulling your hair out for a long long time.
Because IMHO neither Sport can be mastered. Unlike learning Calculus, driving a car, playing an instrument, making love, throwing horseshoes, constructing a house, shooting a gun, speaking a foreign language etc...etc.....with these two activities it is impossible to truly master.

You can forget ever in trying to hit the perfect shot everytime. It just won't happen. I think the key with both sports is the need to concentrate on minimizing the amount of bad shots you throw.

Just ask Tiger Woods or Ken Climo.