Playing with a suspected stroke shaver today, I caught him in the act. At a sanctioned tourney his drive goes O.B., and his second actual throw is short. His putts sails by, his misses the comeback, he misses the comeback, finally nails the putt for six throws plus the penalty for a circle seven. I've got the cards. Calling out names this player reports a circle six. I ask him if he is sure. He does a recount, and sticks with his circle six. I tell him that he is wrong, and replay his hole as I did above. He states that I am wrong. He turns to player three of our group who goes, "I thought you had a five." Okay he's no help. Player four is a young kid who is clueless. Player three suggests we split the difference making it a six. I say this is unacceptable. I ask the shaver what he wants to declare. He tells me to record a seven if that's what I want to do. I tell him he needs to tell me what to write as it's his card. We go back and forth, and finally he tells me to put down the circle six. I didn't think my certified official status allows me to put down what I believe is the correct score, and the rest of the group is of no help. What could I have done different? I thought of mentioning this to the TD after the round, but figured that the shaver was probably DFL in his division as my cold shoulder and eye f'ing appeared to rattle him the rest of the round. He was not in my division, so confronting him has no direct benefit to me. I await advice from Chap and others. My rulebook is soaked and currently useless as a result of todays play. Thanks.

BURN the WITCH----BURN the WITCH----BURN the WITCH :mad:

errrrummmm...i mean this is totally unacceptable golf behavior :D

i'd like to hear from nick and the other DGRZ. seems like a hard situation to deal with if nobody else in your group is paying attention. what if you were making marks for each of his strokes, would that be prof enuf for the td?

Strictly speaking, Rule 804.09.D does not prohibit certified officials from making officiating within their card, only from officiating within their own division., so since the alleged stroke shaver was not in your division, you would have been entitled to make a ruling. If the alleged stroke shaver disagreed with your ruling, he would have been entitled to appeal to the TD.

Had the alleged stroke shaver been in your division or if you were reluctant to make a ruling within your group, and in the absence of any group consensus and/or video footage documenting the number of throws, your options were to make a group majority decision giving the benefit of doubt to the alleged stroke shaver (which, in this instance, would have been to write down a circle-6), or to stand aside and seek a ruling from another official or the TD (803.00.c via 804.03.B). If you disagreed with the group majority decision, you would have been entitled to appeal the group majority decision to the TD; either you or the alleged stroke shaver would have been entitled to appeal another official's decision to the TD.

(As a practical matter, however, it would be extremely difficult for an official or a TD who did not see the hole being played to adjudicate between your and his versions of events. Given that, and the third player's belief that he took a 5 on the hole, I suspect most officials and/or TDS would award the circle-6, based on benefit of doubt.)

Although it's not explicitly written in the rules for this situation, the precedent for a player missing a hole in the beginning of a round is par+4 on the hole. That has been the default "acceptable" penalizing score for a hole where the number of throws would be unknown. So, as a TD or official, it would seem that is a "reasonable man" score if the player or group cannot agree on the score. Thus, player would get a 7 on a par 3 hole.

Although it's not explicitly written in the rules for this situation, the precedent for a player missing a hole in the beginning of a round is par+4 on the hole. That has been the default "acceptable" penalizing score for a hole where the number of throws would be unknown. So, as a TD or official, it would seem that is a "reasonable man" score if the player or group cannot agree on the score. Thus, player would get a 7 on a par 3 hole.

Except that par+4 specifically and only to those situations in which a player's score cannot be determined because s/he misses the start of a round. It specifically does not apply to situations in which a player misses a hole or holes in the middle of a round: in those situations, the player has withdrawn from competition and is listed as "DNF" (803.12.A(3).

IMO, par+4 cannot be applied to scoring disputes as the "logical extension of the closest existing rule or principle" (803.00.E) because a scoring dispute is materially different than a missed hole at the start of a round. In the situation where a player misses the start of a round, no throws were made, and therefore, the number of throws the player would have needed to complete the hole is not simply unknown, but unknowable: s/he might have aced the hole; s/he might have parred it; s/he might have taken a 30-circle 61. Short of sending the player back in time to the time at which the player should have teed off and would have made her/his subsequent throws and having the player play the hole, there is simply no way of knowing what her/his score would have been had s/he played the hole. In a situation where a player actually played the hole, the number of throws taken to complete the hole may be a matter of dispute but it is not unknown or unknowable.

As TD I would be within reasonable interpretation to allow for par+4 and probably also assess a courtesy warning. Perhaps a better option would be to take the group's majority opinion (average) and add 2 throws for not recording the correct score for the round giving the player an 8. That way, crazy holes like Winthrop Gold 12 in high wind wouldn't give the player an "easy" 9.

As TD I would be within reasonable interpretation to allow for par+4 and probably also assess a courtesy warning.

Please explain the chain of reasoning that leads you to conclude that par+4 is within reasonable interpretation.

Rule 804.02 applies par+4 to a hole or holes missed at the beginning of a round. By doing so, it specifically allows a player who, parhaps through no fault of her own, may have been delayed in arriving at her designated hole at the beginning of the round to continue to compete in the tournament. Rule 803.12 explicitly declines to extend the privilege of continuing to a player who misses or fails to complete one or more holes after the player has begun to play the round. Furthemore, neither rule applies par+4 to any hole which a player has actually played. Given that, I can see no reason to suppose that par+4 can or should be extended to apply to a scoring dispute.


Perhaps a better option would be to take the group's majority opinion (average) and add 2 throws for not recording the correct score for the round giving the player an 8.

Sorry, but the only circumstance in which two throws may be added for turning in an incorrect scorecard is if the scoring error is brought to the attention of the TD or the tournament staff after the affected player has attested that the reported score is correct by signing and turning in (or allowing to be turned in) the scorecard (804.03.D).

The very act of presenting a dispute to the TD for a ruling or on appeal, either prior or simultaneous to the scorecard being presented at the scorer's table, is effectively a declaration that the group is not able to reach a consensus on the player's score, and are asking the TD to determine, per 803.00.C, what the score should be. Since the correct score remains a matter of dispute until the TD has made his/her determination and since 804.03.D permits an incorrectly recorded score to be changed prior to the scorecard being turned in, a TD is obligated to afford the appellant(s) the opportunity to correct the disputed score prior to signing and turning in the scorecard.

What a crappy situation to be in.

I would like to say that just because someone "might be DFL" is no reason to not hold them accountable. Especially since you didn't know for sure whether he was DFL or not. It would suck if he came in tied for last with some poor guy who had never finished anything but DFL, because that unknown guy would have been stoked to have finally actually beaten someone in a tourney.

Hawk -

I had a similar situation earlier in the year. We were playing a very long course with par 5's and 4's the norm and par 3's scarce - so basically, there were lots of shots. It wasn't drive then putt - it was drive drive approach putt - i think you get the idea......

On a par 5, the guy with the card got a 6 and when he did the scores he said "I got 5....Robert?"

I said I got a 5 but you didnt - I know this because he had thrown even me on the tee, 2nd shot and 3rd shot. He then hit a tree from about 50 feet out - and i pinned it. He then misses his putt, I made mine - he tapped in - I knew he was one stroke behind me - he goes back through the hole and says your right, I got a 6 - your right.

This happens a lot to everyone I know....ppl make honests mistakes.....HOWEVER....

2 holes later - another par 5 - our tee shots are close - 2nd shots close - I pin my third shot - he hits a tree - he lays up, i make my putt for 4, he taps in for 5.

He goes to the next tee and starts with the scores and doesnt say his.....no biggie right?

As I looked over the card at the end, I couldnt believe I had only beaten this guy by 3 ( I shot +2) - I thought for sure I was beating him by 4 or 5. I remember he only had one birdie and I knew he had lots of bogies - I look over the card and for the hole I just described, he had a 4 written for each of us. I think back and knew this guy didnt get a 4 simply b/c he played the hole exactly the same as me - until his approach hit the tree.

Since he didnt call his score out and this had happened 2 holes earlier, I immediantly thought the guy was cheating. I approached the TD and he grabbed the third guy in our group and asked him about the hole and the guy remember I was the only birdie on the hole and remembers him hittting a tree on his approach.

Since we can't honestly prove cheating in this case, the TD suggested we do this : ask the guy about the hole and see what he says he got.

The TD says to him, did you ever write down the incorrect score? He says, yes, but we changed it from a 5 to a 6 - and then the TD says, no, on hole 10 (the second one where I got a the birdie). He says, I don't remember.

So we go through the hole with him and he siad, yeah I got a 5, and admitted it. He says it was an honest mistake, but I doubt it to this day b/c of what had happened two holes earlier and b/c he didnt call his score out - probably b/c I had caught him before saying the wrong score.

Anyway, he was given a 2 stroke penalty for turning in an incorrect score card (after the 4 was changed to 5). I moved to get him DQed for cheating, but we had no real proof he did.

However, I played with him the next round and had no more problems with him - either that means he learned his lesson or it was an honest mistake - either way, I think that was the best way to handle that case.....

Highest rated player in my apartment complex





Robert,

Kudos on that!

I've contacted the TD, and Chap, and they both essentially said that unless the group can back up the allegation of pencil whipping, then you're kind of screwed in terms of prosecuting. My story had a similar twist as yours did. Maybe these guys are all wired the same way. My Shaver yanked a drive later, then hit a tree on his recovery, approached short and left, missed the putt, and putted for a five. Meanwhile I got a three and the other two got fours. The three of us are waiting on the next tee while The Shaver is now standing near the previous basket with the befuddled look on his face and doing the counting strokes with the moving finger thing we've all seen. I'm thinking this can't possibly happen again. He comes up to the tee, and plops down (he's got the cards now :eek:)
and says, "Was that my second shot at the tree?" Now the tree is 90 degrees from where his original drive went, so you would think he could remember that marked a difference in lies. (No pun intended). I simply and coldly reply, "Yes." He goes, "Well I guess that was a five then."
Uh huh.

Highest rated player in my apartment complex

Only player in his apartment complex. :D

man my signature gets quoted on back to back posts....

thats gotta be a poster rating boost!

What a crappy situation to be in.

I would like to say that just because someone "might be DFL" is no reason to not hold them accountable. Especially since you didn't know for sure whether he was DFL or not. It would suck if he came in tied for last with some poor guy who had never finished anything but DFL, because that unknown guy would have been stoked to have finally actually beaten someone in a tourney.




Rhett,

I fully agree. The clueless kid in the group was 3-4 strokes behind the Shaver in their division. The fourth player was bottom feeding in Masters with me. I think the kid beat him, and am awaiting final results to know for sure. I successfully DFL'd, so I left prior to the final nines starting, so I'm not sure. The kid was cranking stuff early on, and I kept thinking what is he doing down here with us? Some have said to me why do I care as it doesn't effect me directly, but it's just wrong.

I've heard Legends use digital cameras to verify shot counts due to declining short term memory...

Some have said to me why do I care as it doesn't effect me directly, but it's just wrong.


Amen.

yes, it is wrong. but if everyone in the group can't agree the score was wrong there is little you can do other than reporting it to the td and informing the person you will be carefully counting his strokes and marking them on a blank scorecard with a tick for each one.

regardless, you shouldn't let it affect you own game, or you will be eating a few strokes of your own!!!

This is where a policy of KFC should come in handy.
Now we just need a culture of KFC and everything should be hunky dory.

KFC? :confused:

What Can You Do?



post a name.

KFC? :confused:



Know
Follow
Call

...the Rules.

During a recent tourney I was at, between rounds, a player mentioned some ill-behaved golfers during the previous round to the TD. Nothing was actionable, but the TD did deliver a rule book to each player (while they were on the tee awaiting the second round horn) a Rule Book with the involved rule # penciled in on the front. No untoward behavior was mentioned during the rest of the event...

I thought that was a good use of the Rule Books a TD gets with sanctioning, and I think the message went across to the players in a reasonable way and fairly non-confrontive way. I know mostTDs don't like being the heavy (as most players don't).

After reading MTL's post...

804.03 B: After each hole is completed, the scorekeeper shall call out each player's name. The called player shall answer with the score in a manner that is clear to all players of the group and the scorekeeper. The scorekeeper shall record that score and read it back, in a manner that is clear to all players of the group. If there is any disagreement about the score a player reports, the group must review the hole and attempt to arrive at the correct score. If the group cannot reach consensus on the player's score, they shall consult 803.00 C

I can't find anyplace that states what happens to someone who fails to follow proper procedure in recording the scores. I wonder if that is any part of the reason that I see this violated and not called even more often than stance violations. Although since I pointed it out to someone once, I suppose I've seen it brought up more often than Least Movement.

804.03 B: After each hole is completed, the scorekeeper shall call out each player's name. The called player shall answer with the score in a manner that is clear to all players of the group and the scorekeeper.



I recall an event where I called a players name and they responded with "par" for their score. Due to their dialect I thought they said four. When I called the score back to them they corrected me with the score of three. I let them know to call out a number and did not have a problem for the rest of the round.

KFC? :confused:



Know
Follow
Call

...the Rules.



Then eat chicken...

During a recent tourney I was at, between rounds, a player mentioned some ill-behaved golfers during the previous round to the TD. Nothing was actionable, but the TD did deliver a rule book to each player (while they were on the tee awaiting the second round horn) a Rule Book with the involved rule # penciled in on the front. No untoward behavior was mentioned during the rest of the event...

I thought that was a good use of the Rule Books a TD gets with sanctioning, and I think the message went across to the players in a reasonable way and fairly non-confrontive way. I know mostTDs don't like being the heavy (as most players don't).



This is one of my favorite solutions. It sends a clear message while letting the players know you're watching. Kudos to this TD.