Ok I have been playing Disc golf for around 2 years now pretty regularly. Anywhere from 2-4 times per week. My drives range from 250-350 using DX Valkerie and Discraft XS. XS flying by far the best for me.

Now my problem is when I try to pickup a Pro Beast or a Champion Orc or a Champion Monster or any high speed disc. I cannot throw them worth a crap. I mean its really bad like 200 feet if that. I get a terrible left hook that is deadly for others on the course :p The weird thing is when I throw the Valkerie or the XS they go straight as an arrow long range with a slight left turn when they slow down.

The Orc, Beast, Monster, ect all have a violent left turn from the very beginning.

Can anyone help me or tell me what I might possibly be doing wrong?

This one is almost too easy, get a sidewinder :cool:

The discs you mention are all more overstable than the ones you throw, a sidewinder is a little less stable than a valk, super super high speed too.

well i guess the answer is that you don't have a "BIG Arm" like they say is required for the higherspeed discs...
If you can't generate a lot of arm speed just snap alone isn't going to get those discs out there becuase they don't seem to have as much glide as regular drivers like valks/teebirds/xs/etc.. so you would need to throw them faster.

I wouldn't recommend them anyway.. if you are good with a valk then use a valk... The world record for distance is still held with a Valk and not a Beast or ORC yet.

-Scott Lewis

If you like the XS then i would recommend a heavy Z-Xpress, or a light Z-Flash.

The Z-Xpress is very easy to throw, as it is understable and does not require much speed to fly far.

The Z-Flash is a high speed driver, but a lighter one will not need the speed to be understable that a heavier one would need.

Categorizing a Pro beast, Champion Orc and Pro Monster together as a group seems strange to me since they are all somewhat different. Furthermore, the category of "high speed discs" seems kind of weird also. I don't throw valks or XSs, but I see people throw them essentially the same distance as the other drivers you mentioned. In other words, Valks, XS, Beast, Orc, Monster are all "drivers" in my book. They may be meaningfully categorized by stability, but categorizing them by speed makes little sense, IMO.

Anyways, the advice on the sidewinder seems good, since it is also a "not very stable driver" like the drivers you currently throw and I trust that My Hero's advice is also spot on.

Then again Hero has been known to steer people wrong for a laugh. :D:D

Stability is in the arm of the disc thrower.

To a "noodle arm", the Beast, Orc, and Monster will all have the same effect, hard hook to the left, very little distance. I know alot of people who use a 175 Beast for overstable headwind shots. I use a 175 Beast for slightly turning tailwind shots because I have the armspeed needed to turn these discs over.

Again, Innova rates all these in speed as a 9 or a 10, so they are all high speed drivers. And those Discraft discs are also high speed drivers. I think either a lighter Flash or the Sidewinder would be a great disc for the guy who asked the question.

Know what you throw, throw what you know. It does not matter what disc the player uses to make it to the basket, what is important is that the disc gets to the basket. Heck I know a top/middle-top pro who putts with Glo Rocs.

Stick with what works best for you man.

Then again Hero has been known to steer people wrong for a laugh. :confused: :confused:



Hehe....yes, but if you read my advice on this particular subject you would see NO sarcasm. As James would say, "I'm spot on":D

Thank you for the comments. So you think a Sidewinder and Flash will fly farther than an XS? If so I am definatly gonna try those 2 out.

Also I guess I should add a bit more info and this could be the cause also. I throw the disc using the 3 finger (4 counting thumb) grip. The Pinky is on the outside of the rim not under the lip. Could this be a cause?

Get that pinkie up under the rim alongside the others, and put that thumb right on the lip. And yes, get a light sidewinder.

Yes, the Sidewinder and or the Flash should go farther then your XS.

Check out
http://www.julianakorver.com/

or

http://www.discgolfreview.com/

for tips on grip technique.

Ok so I am gonna try to use the Power grip but it is very uncomfortable for me for some reason. I am also going to try a sidewinder and flash.

I really have a hard time believing its a problem with my armspeed but its possible. When I throw a 150 disc it turns right over and rolls and hooks right. I was a pitcher in baseball and was able to sling the ball over 85+ MPH and that has allot to do with armspeed.

What about trajectory? When i throw the disc i try to keep it low and on a straight plane. No hooking and curving just try and throw it straight. Should I try to Hyzer Anhyzer? Right now I am just looking for pure distance because the rest of my game is on par.


Thanks again for all the responses. Plz keep em coming.

You could have a similar problem to what I have. Breaking your wrist. Which causes the disc to be released late and with too much tourqe. When I do break my wrist, which I am constantly working to stop, I can turn over a 175g Champion Firebird.

I also have figured out problems with my grip. When I start my throw (reachback) and I already have the power grip ready, I found I have grip lock problems. So what I do, is barely hold on to the disc until I start the forward motion of the throw. That is what works best for me.

Also, how long have you been playing? Everything builds on itself and no one can throw great when they first start, or better yet throw consistent. For me, I have only been playing disc golf for 1 year now, but I can reach 450ft on big drives, control a Roc/Buzzz for up to 350ft, and make 80-90% of my putts within 30ft during practice. But that is attributed to ten years of playing Ultimate, DDC, and GUTS prior to disc golf. AND like you I played baseball for 5 years before disc sports. I was able to throw from center feild to the backstop in the air on a high school baseball field. Distance will come, practice practice practice because form is everything.

Then again Hero has been known to steer people wrong for a laugh. :confused: :confused:



I've thought long and hard about the above post. I can't come up with one example of me leading people the wrong way for a laugh. Oh wait, does messing with James McCaine count? Do people consider his feelings? If so, then i guess a have no ground to stand on. :D

Hitting 80-90% of 30 ft. puts is kind of silly.

Hitting 80-90% of 30 ft. puts is kind of silly.



Remember, that is during practice, which is in my coaches back yard. No pressure, little elevation change.

A tournament is a different setting, I am normally ~50% within the circle. Last tournament I was on fire, I missed only two putts within 30ft, but my drives were off.

Gretzky's interpretation of armspeed my be incorrect. In disc golf people often interpret armspeed as how fast I can get my arm from the reach back to disc release. Nothing is further from the truth. Armspeed is about what Dave Dunipace calls elbow extension (some have pointed out that this is poor terminology). If you break the throw into two parts, part one being getting your elbow bent and your body turned into the throw, and part two being finishing off your body rotation and unbending the arm at the elbow, arm speed only comes into play during part two. In point ot fact, high armspeed during part one can cause the disc to come out fast with no torque and to turn over if understable or hyzer hard if overstable. Sound familiar? Arm speed during part two has just the opposite effect; it puts a lot more torque on the disc and both stable and understable discs tend to run a lot straighter.

Let's put this in baseball terms. When you throw a ball you bring the ball up and back until it is somewhere behind your shoulder. Then, leading with your body you bring your elbow forward until your chest is facing the target and your elbow is now in front of your body. This motion is fast, but not at full speed. At this point your forearm pivots over your elbow at full speed and whips the ball out with tremendous velocity. The only arm speed that really matters is that whip at the end. The rest, while very important, is not where you get your ball speed from. Essentially, you want to acheive the same thing in your RHBH throw.

If you watch video of the pros you can clearly see this. They have a rapid aproach, a very fast arm motion up to a bent elbow and their chest coming around to face the target, and then their arm is a blur of motion as the forearm hinges forward at the elbow.

http://home.comcast.net/~tpozzy/prodrives.htm

I was just playing sorry. You should know that you are the exact opposite. :D:D

A sidewinder would be a great starting point. I throw orcs, beasts, flashes and crushes 400'+ and still like the sidewinder. I can crank that thing and just watch it soar high, deep and slightly right. The disc definitely shouldn't dive left on you. Try a 168 sidewinder. I bet you will love it immediately.

To reach maximum distance with almost any disc, your best bet is to get it to turn over by either throwing it with annie or turning it over with a hyzer flip and letting it ride out a long glide to the right as the overstability of the disc slowly straghtens it back up at the end and dies out to the left. The height required for maximum D varies by the driver but is most closely related to the speed of the disc. The slower the disc, the higher you will have to throw it (the discs seem to like to go up as it is so it shouldn't be too hard to get them high) while the newer faster discs love staying near the ground. Some guys can throw out to 400 and beyond and stay under 15'. Different heights and angles will allow you to achieve a multitude of different drive flight paths and allow you to drive through those snakey tree lined fairways we all encounter.

A quick reminder of what a high speed disc is... its a disc that requires higher speed than previous generation discs to optimally fly.

I kinda think high speed discs tend to be discs that players can crutch on once they've improved their drive power so that they're flipping their non high speed drivers over. Instead of working on technique to clean up off axis torque and make the non high speed discs stop turning into the ground, one can just go up to the next level high speed disc that won't flip over as easily, matching one's current power and technique. Switching to these discs right away will result in a farther throw at the time, but as I understand it, sticking to slower discs encourages gaining distance by improving technique which can always be transferred later on to the high speed drivers.

I've been throwing since last July and been staying away from the high speed drivers, throwing them from time to time just to see how they react to my technique. For some reason I've been sticking with the dx teebird, I guess high resistance to turn and low fade just seems like the ideal for a disc to me. I have a friend who loves the orc. Lately we've been driving almost the exact same shot the exact same distance. A difference being that mine are more hyzer flips, and his are more s curves, both on almost as tight a line though. Moral of the story "throw what you know and know what you throw".

Throw the discs that works for you. Nothing is wrong with the high speed discs, they are just different clubs in your golf bag. But they aren't automatic ways to add distance. For some people they'll add 50ft to their throw, but the distance record is with a valkrye, and I'm pretty sure a teebird broke the XS's record the same event that the valkrye did. Of course, orcs were not discs that the distance throwers probably had a chance to "know and throw" at the time so maybe they do have more distance potential. Either way, valkryes, teebirds, and XS's can all be thrown over 500ft. My guess is once you get your discs consistently 350ft, your high speed discs will be losing that mean hook and you'll be able to better compare them with your current discs.

Also, it may help to get your discs more nose down. If you're valks and XS's start flipping over often when you try to get the disc more nose down, try releasing them with a bit of hyzer. If they start flying farther with that shot, my guess is you weren't throwing with nose down before. Try using a nose down throw with the high speed drivers after that, and maybe you'll get a nice long s curve.

Well it's Greatzky... Gretzky is a hockey player and somoene else on this Discussion board..
but anyway
I know what you are talking about. I"ve read up on dave's bent elbow techniques and driving articles..
That doesn't disprove what i said. If they second part is the only thing that has to do with armspeed then It's that part which he isn't throwing "fast" or fast enough for that disc....
I don't have much of a reach back at all.. i throw with a bent elbow technique and i see people with these huge pull backs and then throw so fast, but then they only get a driver out like 300feet becuase they've already slowed down at the hit. I know what you're talkinga bout bud :)

I didn't read your whole post, but in either event.. It's all about good technique.. Starting with things that are a little understable.. and getting a nice clean hit and Good follow through.

-Scott Lewis

The Orc, Beast, Monster, ect all have a violent left turn from the very beginning.

Can anyone help me or tell me what I might possibly be doing wrong?



my bet is it is a combination of power and nose angle with an emphasis on the latter. the discs you reference as having trouble with are the wider rimmed, sharper nosed drivers which are inherently more nose angle sensitive. also, the discs you mentioned you have trouble must be thrown nose down to have any decent result (flat is not enough nose down) and coupled with the wider rim, they are a bit harder to throw nose down as well (especially if you have below-average sized hands). slower discs can often flip nose down (from a nose up release) if they are thrown with sufficient power and a bit of downward torque.

that being said, you will get the most consistent D with the discs that have a cruise speed closest to your current power level. while faster discs may yield some longer throws, if you don't have the arm/consistency to power them adequately on a consistent basis, you will have a much greater distance spread between your slightly below and slightly above average throws. this is similar to a golfer using a 5 wood vs. a 1 wood.

the 250-350 range you listed is rather large and i'm going to guess that the majority of the throws lie in either the 300-330 range or 250-280 range. if it is the lower of the two, you probably have some kinks in your form you probably need to work out before stepping up in discs. if it is the longer of the two it is probably just a nose angle issue.

I got my first 400+ drive the other day at Warriors Path park in TN. It was the last hole. It listed 458 ft I think not totally sure. I was within 20 feet of the hole after the drive.

I was using a Discraft XS and the flight patter started out going right from my release but the disc did not turnover going with a right hook it stayed (the slash is the way the disc looked in flight from my eyes) " / " in the air. But then straightened out and then came back to the left at the end. Is that the right flight pattern for distance?

Should the disc be at a " / " angle in the air or " \ " angle in the air after I release it if im right handed. Of course it won't be that drastic of a slant in the air but u get it. I throw Traditional form not sidearm or anything.

/ is hyzer, \ is anhyzer, both are useful shots, depending on the hole you are playing.

A difference being that mine are more hyzer flips, and his are more s curves



If I'm not mistaken...you get S Curves from throwing hyzer flips or roller lines with overstable discs...if you're getting a flat flight out of a hyzer release, thats more of a flattened hyzer, but whatever...they are both s curve shots anyhow.

Ok maybe I don't understand what a Hyzer Flip is can someone explain the flight path that is? How to throw it ect ect?

Ok maybe I don't understand what a Hyzer Flip is can someone explain the flight path that is? How to throw it ect ect?



Any shot thats released with a hyzer angle, and durring its flight turns over, and usually hyzers back at the end..its all just technical jargon...if a shot is release hyzer and flips flat, but never turns over...technically its still a hyzer flip, but most call that a flattened hyzer...either way, its about the same shot.

Ya, my shots were a lengthened hyzer hyzer flip. I don't consider something that never gets anny on it or very very minute anny on it an s-curve. His shots were released flat and got some anny and faded back to the left. So they were s-curves, but didn't start with a hyzer so it wasn't a hyzer flip.

A throw where the disc is released with hyzer angle, and during its flight the disc angle rotates clockwise so that the disc comes close to being flat or goes flat or goes past flat and gets an anhyzer angle is a hyzer flip. It does not matter whether it finishes with hyzer, level, or anhyzer.

A lengthened or straigtened hyzer hyzer flip is useful because typically the disc is going on a more direct route in the direction you want it to be going for a larger portion of its flight than an s-curve. You can can combine a hyzer flip with an s curve too.

Please differentiate between a hyzer flip and a turnover shot. I mean, if I (weak arm) throw a beat up stingray with hyzer, it's going to turn over. I call it a turnover shot. I was under the impression that a hyzer flip was different than the mere turnover I described above. You know, something big arms do with moderately stable plastic.

Please differentiate between a hyzer flip and a turnover shot. I mean, if I (weak arm) throw a beat up stingray with hyzer, it's going to turn over. I call it a turnover shot. I was under the impression that a hyzer flip was different than the mere turnover I described above. You know, something big arms do with moderately stable plastic.



The way I understand it is that when people talk about a "hyzer flip," they're normally talking about a throw that has an overall straight flight path. In other words, it ends up pretty much directly in line with the direction it was thrown. A turnover shot is one that holds an overall anhyzer flight path so for a RHBH throw it would end up to the right.

I didn't read all the replies so this may have been mentioned.

If your Valk, etc are well worn they could be quite understable. Assuming this is the case then it will be significantly less stable than the Orc, Beast ,Monster,etc. You are very likely releasing it with just the right amount of hyzer for it to straighten out. You've learned as the disc has aged how to keep it flying straight and you haven't even noticed that you've added this adjustment / compensation over time. If you pick up a brand new dx valk, or even more so a Champion Valk or other even more overstable disc and throw it with the same motion and release it's clear why it will Newton straight to earth.

Hope this applies to you situation, helps or at least makes sense.

Uh...am I missing something here? If you can throw Valks and XSs 350', why would you want to change anything?!

I guess this goes to show that it's not the disc, it's the thrower.

Newton. That's a good one.

Uh...am I missing something here? If you can throw Valks and XSs 350', why would you want to change anything?!

I guess this goes to show that it's not the disc, it's the thrower.



Because I want 450-500 out of my throws.

Ok I went out yesterday to do some testing and try and change my form a bit.

#1 thing I changed was the grip. I went to the 4 finger rim Power grip. This grip is kinda uncomfortable for me but I decided to try it anyway. I got out my Orc to give it a shot I think its a 172g Champion Orc. First thing I noticed is that I was getting MUCH straighter throws. The disc was not diving to the left like before near a bad. The only negative thing was I was not getting near the distance out of my throws, although I was never able to throw a Orc very far anyway.

So I decided to step up the the tee and pull out my DX Valkerie and give it a whirl with the POWER grip and see what would happen. The result, the best drive I had ever thrown and it hit the pin at around 400 ft out maybe more. It didn't go in but it did hit the bottom pole.

#2 the only thing bad about this new grip is that I am having major elbow pain today. It seems like the extra power I get out of my throws and change in form was not good for my elbow. But it might just be i need to adjust my form or build that tendon more.

But thanks for all the help in this thread it made me find the reason to the wide rim high speed disc that I could never throw. I still can't throw the monster but I just think its a poor made disc. I have never seen someone throw it well.

red light. pain in the elbow = bad, especially if it occurred while you were throwing and not just after the round. most times i know of people experiencing elbow pain while throwing backhand it is due to a wrist roll over (inside of your forearm pointing upwards immediately after the release). if this is the case, i strongly suggest to stop doing this, especially since part of the comparative advantage of D is that you can generally throw putters/midrange discs longer off the tee and be more accurate in the long run. if you are torquing drivers over, this won't go well with your midrange discs and take away this advantage.



Because I want 450-500 out of my throws.



this is a very tall order but i wish you luck. two pieces of advice i can give is that 1) not very many people can do this consistently on golf shots (although distance annies and rollers make it more feasible but less applicable) so don't get too frustrated if it takes time (every 10' of true D after ~380' or so takes a lot more work than adding 10' below 380. true D = throwing farther with the same disc vs. adding D with a disc upgrade). 2) imo, the real advantage of 450+ driver power is being able to throw a disc like a roc 350+, so make sure you develop this aspect of your game as well.

I still can't throw the monster but I just think its a poor made disc. I have never seen someone throw it well.



Keep in mind that the Monster is designed to dive hard left for a RHBH thrower. For a vast majority of people it won't work as a maxium distance driver. It does, however, work really well for strong headwinds and drives that must fade hard at the end of the flight. It also works well as a forehand driver.

"2) imo, the real advantage of 450+ driver power is being able to throw a disc like a roc 350+, so make sure you develop this aspect of your game as well"


That is the advantage of throwing far. I love throwing a Z Wasp when everyone else has to throw a driver. Midranges are more accurate because they are slower, and are thus better to throw if you can reach it. How many 450+ holes are there compared to how many 300-350' holes?

I'd say MRV instead of a driver but to me the MRV is a driver. :D

I also LOVE that!!!!!! There were a few kids walking with my group the last round at Whit Park Yesterday. We are walking up to hole #1 which is 370 downhill and the tee is about 40 or 50 ft higher then the basket so I pull out my challenger and this kid that is walking next to me not playin in our group goes " Your not going to throw a freakin challenger are you???" So i say " I throw these things 300+ on flat ground of course im going to throw my challenger" Everyone else throws drivers and end up short and i throw my challenger 20 ft PAST the basket :D

word to that pimpin.
I can throw my Aviar P&A consistently in the 250-260 range.. I never tried max distance because i haven't found a need for a putter drive on an open hole at my course, but i'm sure i can hit 300..
I love being able to throw a putter on 4-5holes at my course when others are throwing drivers and/or trying to huck mids. My putter will just go right down the middle while they're trying to hyzer out their driver so they dont' throw too far and end up hitting trees or getting crazy skips.


-Scott Lewis

It's all about control......

Getting a driver like an Orc out over 450ft requires alot of controlled form and proper mechanics. You don't really have to be a big person to throw that far. Once you can control the disc you will be able to push your mids 350 and putters 300. I limit my putters to 250 because the deeper rim catches on my fingers and flips over to the right too often.

I'm not disagreeing that throwing slower discs is better, but I don't really understand why they're better. Does it have to do with it not going as far past the pin? If a person has great control with a driver wouldn't that be just as good as throwing a putter or midrange disc? Some people would say its better to throw the high speed drivers because they require less effort to go the same distance which lets them concentrate more on accuracy.

it's the equivalent to choking up on a 3-wood vs. hitting a 5-iron full. there are times when a driver is more applicable, but if you play the averages, if it's a hole that you can reach and have the room to throw a slower, more accurate disc, it is to your advantage to throw the more accurate disc.

most of it has to do with speed, fade, and margin for error. if you are off by 10 degrees in your lateral trajectory, a putter will be closer to your target than a driver thrown 10 degrees off line.

throwing midrange/putters far is often a skill that is overlooked by developing players and ends up being especially important because there are a lot of things people often do when throwing drivers (such as off axis torque) that just won't work with slower discs but will help their overall throwing form in the long run.

A high speed driver, even a Valk thrown at low speed has tremendous fade at the end of the flight. Which is very hard to judge depending on the wind. A midrange disc with little fade, like a Buzzz or a Roc is easier to judge how it will finish at any speed. The fade of a low speed Roc is not as drastic as the fade of a driver at low speed.

Ok so after about 2-3 weeks of testing the new 174g Champion Sidewinder I bought I have to say THANKS for the advice.

I threw it 420ft yesterday and maybe even farther that that. I wanted to get a bit lighter around 168g but only one I could find locally was 174g. But if I really rip it, it will actually go a tiny bit right out of my hand which I love. Then it will S back left slightly at the end.

This disc has really helped me out since I changed over to the 4 finger Power grip. I am now throwing the Sidewinder farther than my DX Valkerie and my XS. I actually got a good run off of my Pro Beast the other day also which I have never been able to throw.