I'm not sure when this process begins, but I have some suggestions for next year. These suggestions are based on the following assumptions/observations:

1) The attendance at most disc golf tournaments is mainly regional players. When I say regional, I mean people that do not have to stay overnight, but can generally commute from their home.

2) Some tournaments draw from all regions. Some tournaments draw from all regions and from neighboring states. These are what I will call majors. PDGA distinctions are irrelevant. My list of these are World Doubles, Waco, Texas States, Z Boaz, Veterans, and Texas 10 finals. I may be missing some and certainly would like/need to add some more to this list as part of my proposal. The ones that come to mind are Outlaws, Live Oak Victoria, and Lubbock.

Anyways, what I am proposing is a schedule that has approximately one of the majors spaced at roughly monthly intervals. The other three weeks can be filled by regional tournaments; either one-day events within the region or two day tournaments. Texas Ten and GCCS events (other than the finals), would fit in as regional events, even though they would span all regions over the course of the year.

The intent behind this idea is simply to accommodate disc golfers. The people that rarely travel will have more regional options and the people who travel will also have many regional options, but will also be aided by the fact that the majors are spaced better.

All in all, disc golf will become more regional with a predictable monthly major. In some ways, this is already happening, without the predictable majors. I see this structure as helping both the non-travelling regional players and the travelling regional players. It will tend to reduce travelling costs and expenses overall, but hopefully, make the majors more prominent and hopefully better attended.

Anyways, I probably expressed this poorly, but my main motivations were to schedule more regional events and isolate the majors so that they would stand out more and thereby naturally attract the travelling players. I also think the Texas schedule has lost its focus, not because of Gary or Brian, but because the natural unchecked growth of disc golf tournaments.

I'm just throwing this out, what do y'all think?

I think this was tossed around earlier.

I agree, but who determines which tournaments have priority over scheduling and what do you do when the PDGA puts most of the A-tier events back to back to back in the winter ?

I also have little power to reject any request for dates unless it conflicts geographically. With 200 mile limits, there can be 5 B-Tier events in TX (6 if El Paso wanted to run one) on the same weekend. Beyond that, if I do tell anyone that they can't run one, they can just go unsanctioned and do it anyway.

I would love to be able to dictate a schedule and space things out. Would all of the TDs in TX (and a few from out of state that run events here) go along with it?

Ultimately, I see it as more of a top-down scheduling, with the dates for the majors set aside, partly based on the historical dates of the known majors. Who makes the decisions for the open major dates. Why you do. ;), but hopefully after listening to people's input, and always with the caveat, that should they not perform well, they might be replaced in the future.

As to the PDGA. If they won't assist in making disc golf better in Texas, we really don't need to play by their rules. I'm not advocating non-sanctioning, but maybe we should consider going B tiers with some of the big events, if that is what it takes to get the dates we request.

I agree that it will take some cooperation, and maybe that is the issue Texas DGers need to address. How do we force cooperation? :D

Just a thought ,I ran a local event non sanctioned on the same weekend as the red rock show .I was asked to run this event on this date because of a festival in this park on that weekend .I had no choice or pick of the date .i contacted Moody and explained why and that I was not trying to step on him at all .Anyway Some of my traveling players went to the RRS and I still had 51 people .My point is If we build our local player base everywhere we dont have to worry about events not filling they will all fill .I think by Taking on the Headache of trying to maintain the schedule to fill all these events are we really helping The sport to grow or are we limiting the Growth .Just my opion

Here is an idea, please feel free to expand upon it or whatever:

First off make the Lone Star Disc Golf Alliance a full fledged club or org, find some incentive for peopel to pay a very small fee to join. Like voting priveladges, a newsletter, bag tag , a custom mini or whatever.

As mentioned before Texas is seperated into a half dozen or so regions. The LSDGA membership can vote on candidtes to elect coordinators to each of these regions. All the regional coordinators work together and with the Stae coordinator to insure the best schedule possible along with other things like which events should take precidence over others etc. These regional coordinators are alot closer to the players and potential TD's of non-sanctioned events in thier region and such so they can work with them much easier then a State coordinator can.

This could also open the door to being able to have a full State tour culminating at the State Championships.

Anyway, just an idea.

James - to a large extent, the schedules for the majors are established by the TDs and the PDGA. They are established partly because of "traditional dates" partly because of the TD's request and all is influenced by surrounding events some of which may be across state boundaries.

The PDGA "forced" some TDs to move some of their events around a bit in order to accomodate a more favorable "swing" of events for the touring players. Those folks like to hit A-tiers for the most part because of financial reasons. I don't think that really, any Texas event had to be moved too much other than maybe Waco Open.

I specifically requested that States be moved to its current slot (last year and again this year) in order to see more touring players come to our tournaments. The PDGA accomodated our request and so the Carrolton Open moved dates. As it turned out, Bryan James thought that he was getting a better date so all of the TDs were relatively happy with that change.

Part of the problem is that there are a LOT of good Texas tournaments and players from the major metropolitan cities will travel long distances to play in them. As more and more cities put in more courses, more folks want to host tournaments at their own courses. Some go non-sanctioned, some go lower level sanctioning...but players who are willing to travel, seem to choose the ones sanctioned at the highest level.

Anyway you slice it, there is still gonna be the same number of tournaments, right? What scheduling conflict do you think that your proposal will solve differently than the way it's already being handled?

The majors should always get first pick of dates, then follow it down the tier level. Majors should be handled at a more national level because distance restrictions are most certainly gonna cross state boundaries whereas B-tiers and below usally don't cross as many state boundaries so they can be handled by a state coordinator.

It's been suggested that we consider moving States to the spring time...but the problem locally is that after putting together States in October, it's hard to get real thrilled about turning around and hosting another one 5-6 months later. Hard on staffers, hard on sponsors too!

I think the biggest problem is TD's email/calling Gary. He is the easiest person to get a hold of if you need something. Without ever having run a tournament, Gary has become the greatest asset to a TD in the state. (at least to those that talk to him)

I warned Gary about the fact that there were already too many tournament. I told him a few of my problems I was having getting a hold of certain TD's. Then there are the TD's who want it there way or they will just do it anyways.

I think what Gary has been able todo is great. It is really not that easy of a job to find weekends for new tournaments. It is not easy to tell someone that they can't sanction their tournament because of another tournament in the area.

Billy, I think you have an excellant point. I think that many TD's are disappointed with a turnout of only 51 players. I think this is one of the main reasons this topic keeps being revived. I commend you for running that tournament and bringing in new players. There are many of us that wish we could play every tournament. However, none of us are able to do so. It is ultimately up to the individual players to determine which of the many to play. Our decisions are based on many criteria: logistics, cost, who else is playing, favorite TD, favorite course....the list goes on...I think Gary and all the TD's are doing a great job. Everyone needs to understand it is difficult to have tournaments that fill when there are so many tournaments. Like most things in life, what is such a blessing, sometimes feels like a curse.
Keep doing the same thing, TD's and Gary. If there are not enough Pro's entering your event, try bringing in more Rec players to your tournament as their first tournament. There is no way to get more than 52 weekends in a year. This state has well over 100 courses, most of which would like a tournament or two each year. Each TD is going to be dissapointed occasionaly with turnout to some degree, unless he or she decides to put a different spin on it. So, once again, Billy, I commend you for your attitude on having 51 players and being happy to have had a bunch of first time players. :cool:

I hope you didn't read my original suggestion as opposed to what you described. I am advocating regional/local tournaments, with the once a month exception. Personally, I feel like last weekend with regional tournaments around the state fits in with what I am suggesting. My motivation is not to get tourneys to fill, especially on regional weekends, but to provide a schedule that both supports a more regional approach and at the same time provides focus for the majors.

Scott, I think your idea is excellent.

Anyway you slice it, there is still gonna be the same number of tournaments, right? What scheduling conflict do you think that your proposal will solve differently than the way it's already being handled?



No, I see more tourneys with this idea. For three weekends a month, there may be five tournaments going on in the state, and people at the regional level don't have to worry about statewide conflicts, because it is a regional weekend. The "scheduling conflict" is admittedly what I percieve as a problem. I see Texas falling into a state where few tournaments stand out any more; a state where players are often forced to choose between the majors, because they fall in consecutive weeks; a state where certain weekends could be filled at a local level, but are not because of illusionary conflicts with other tourneys. In short, I think this type of schedule would certainly help the majors, and ease the scheduling for regionals, but most importantly, it would help the players, both those that prefer regional tourneys and those that like the majors.

But I like both.

I feel the bite as much as anyone. There are three events that I want to attend on the first weekend in April. I would be at Pecan Park or TWC, but I have made arrangements to go to Bowling Green because I will not be at Am Worlds this year. I also want to attend the TWC. I may have to start alternating PPO and TWC in the coming years.

Last weekend was the same with Tyler and Red Rock (and I ended up in Tulsa).

I have a regional plan in the works, but need a lot of support from all of the TDs in TX for it to work. It was more bi-monthly (5 majors + TX States) Regional C-Tiers before and after, Regional B-Tiers 2 weeks away, cross regional B-Tiers 3 weeks away.

Something like this.
Week 1 - Major big draw event (120 + players)
Week 2 - Smaller regional events everywhere (50-75 players)
Week 3 - B-Tier regional events (75-120 players)
Week 4 - Smaller regional events
Week 5 - B-Tier events that draw across regions (75-120 players)
Week 6 - Smaller regional events
Week 8 - Major big draw event

One empty week for holiday scheduling.

I for one Gary will go for it. My weekend is movable. (although I like the weekend I have right now)

Gary - I'm willing to listen to it and to work with you. (Yes, this means I'm willing to consider other dates if necessary. :D)

Well, that's 3 (I'm on the list too) out of 43.

How many big events a year do the Texas Golfers want to see ?

Is 6 about right ?

What about the TX10/GCCS/DFWFD/JDGF (8-10 tourney series) events ?

TX10s generally average better than 100 players per event.
The JDGF has started out this season pretty well too.

The series events should fall on a B-tier or regional weekend, right? I'd say that which kind of weekend ought to be determined by whether they are sanctioned or not...

I'll restate the question.

Can a non-sanctioned event be considered a Major and get the scheduling protection that a Major should, or is it considered a regional event regardless of it's size ?

If anything that draws more than 120 players is a Major event, then we already have too many. If only Sanctioned events can qualify, what benefit is there to non-sanctioned event TDs to cooperate with the plan ?

What does JDGF stand for?

What non-sanctioned events are y'all talking about? If it is the T10 or GCCS one-day events, IMO opinion, those are regional events and should fall on regional weekends.

IMO, six big events spaced properly sounds good, but I wouldn't count National Doubles as one of the six, even though I think it deserves the same protection.

The benefit for non-sanctioned TDs is simply to be a good, cooperative citizen. At any rate, with your proposed structure, there are more than enough weekends devoted to regional events, it seems like a good scheduling structure for all the state-wide series. It also looks like a good opportunity for local clubs to create their own regional series.

JDGF = Junior Disc Golf Foundation

These are what I will call majors. PDGA distinctions are irrelevant. My list of these are World Doubles, Waco, Texas States, Z Boaz, Veterans, and Texas 10 finals.



Sad to think as big a state, as long a playing calendar and as many players as we have; these are the only major tourneys we have.

:confused:

Here are the top 10 Texas events based on attendance for the past few years (sorted by 2004).

TX10 Finals, TX States, and TX State Doubles are combined because they happen on one weekend. VPO, Waco, and World Doubles happen on two weekends

<table border="1"><tr><td>Event</td><td>2002</td><td>2003</td><td>2004
</td></tr><tr><td>TX10 Finals (comb)</td><td>182</td><td>250</td><td>309
</td></tr><tr><td>World Doubles Am</td><td>220</td><td>198</td><td>188
</td></tr><tr><td>Texas States (comb)</td><td>205</td><td>191</td><td>152
</td></tr><tr><td>Capitol of Texas Open</td><td>105</td><td>133</td><td>132
</td></tr><tr><td>TX State Doubles (comb)</td><td>132</td><td>136</td><td>128
</td></tr><tr><td>Carrollton Open</td><td>194</td><td>177</td><td>122
</td></tr><tr><td>PGM/East Texas Open</td><td>128</td><td>127</td><td>118
</td></tr><tr><td>Red Rock</td><td>90</td><td>90</td><td>115
</td></tr><tr><td>Waco Charity Am</td><td>161</td><td>115</td><td>110
</td></tr><tr><td>Pecan Park Open</td><td>134</td><td>108</td><td>102</tr></td></table>

The next group is betwen 100 and 75 players.

<table border="1"><tr><td>Event</td><td>2002</td><td>2003</td><td>2004
</td></tr><tr><td>Live Oak Summer Open</td><td>0</td><td>99</td><td>97
</td></tr><tr><td>Waterloo</td><td>101</td><td>97</td><td>97
</td></tr><tr><td>Poison Ivy Open</td><td>0</td><td>75</td><td>94
</td></tr><tr><td>Victoria Open</td><td>0</td><td>111</td><td>92
</td></tr><tr><td>Big Show at Vet</td><td>0</td><td>0</td><td>89
</td></tr><tr><td>Woodlands Classic</td><td>0</td><td>0</td><td>88
</td></tr><tr><td>Waco Charity Pro</td><td>101</td><td>80</td><td>88
</td></tr><tr><td>Flying Solo Mem.</td><td>0</td><td>0</td><td>84
</td></tr><tr><td>Big Arms</td><td>76</td><td>130</td><td>80
</td></tr><tr><td>Ourlaw Singles</td><td>91</td><td>98</td><td>78</tr></td></table>

The last group is less than 75 players, but 20 or more Pros.

<table border="1"><tr><td>Event</td><td>02 Pro</td><td>02 Am</td><td>02 Tot</td><td>03 Pro</td><td>03 AM</td><td>03 Tot</td><td>04 Pro</td><td>04 Am</td><td>04 Tot
</td></tr><tr><td>Top Of Texas Open</td><td>0</td><td>0</td><td>0</td><td>21</td><td>38</td><td>59</td><td>22</td><td>52</td><td>74
</td></tr><tr><td>Oktoberfest</td><td>31</td><td>59</td><td>90</td><td>29</td><td>65</td><td>94</td><td>20</td><td>45</td><td>65
</td></tr><tr><td>World Doubles Pro</td><td>166</td><td>0</td><td>166</td><td>0</td><td>100</td><td>100</td><td>60</td><td>0</td><td>60
</td></tr><tr><td>Fahrenheit Fling</td><td>22</td><td>69</td><td>91</td><td>20</td><td>48</td><td>68</td><td>10</td><td>49</td><td>59
</td></tr><tr><td>VPO Pro</td><td>85</td><td>0</td><td>85</td><td>65</td><td>0</td><td>65</td><td>56</td><td>0</td><td>56
</td></tr><tr><td>Big Show Zboaz</td><td>63</td><td>83</td><td>146</td><td>72</td><td>107</td><td>179</td><td>55</td><td>0</td><td>55
</td></tr><tr><td>VPO Am</td><td>0</td><td>67</td><td>67</td><td>0</td><td>93</td><td>93</td><td>0</td><td>48</td><td>48
</td></tr><tr><td>Big Show Midwk #2</td><td>31</td><td>11</td><td>42</td><td>33</td><td>27</td><td>60</td><td>20</td><td>13</td><td>33</tr></td></table>

I think that data is useful, but it is really only part of the equation. It seems to me that other factors besides attendance or attendence trends include desire/ability of the TD/club to host such an event coupled with the ability of the location to handle such an event.

IMO, you might want to inform every likely TD/club that you are proposing a structure with X number of weekends set aside for big events. Also, make it known that you would prefer locations that can handle larger fields. In other words, places that have two courses available to use.

Personally, I don't think big events necessarily need lots of added money, even though it would be nice. In other words, they need not be A tiers or NT or whatever. Therefore, if TDs/clubs did not have to worry about raising X amount of sponsorship, they might be more willing to hold such an event.

Actually, looking at your data, I suppose a major weekend could be divided into two tournaments (pro and am) and run by different TDs or clubs at two totally distinct locations.

It is also noteworthy that the TX10s have averaged more than 150 players per event for the last 2 years for the unsanctioned events in the series, and the now sanctioned JDGF series kicked of this year with 90 players in Dolese.

If you base it on attendance, both of these series could end up as majors for all of their events.

The GCCS events are sanctioned and average less than 75 players per event.

The DFWFD series is a combination of sanctioned and non-sanctioned events that except for the events listed in my preceding post normally draw less than 75 players

I know all of the events in the top 10 except Red Rock have 2+ courses. Red Rock uses Tee Times so it isn't as important there.

If we aren't going to base the Major's on current appeal, what are going to base it on ? And if we do use something else, aren't we going to look silly when golfers show us what they think the majors are ?

Sure, I think current appeal is a factor, but I think if it is a designated major weekend, people like the TD and the courses, attendence will be very good. Also, I can think of tournaments that do not presently exist, that could easily draw very well.

For example, what if a club or circular productions or a combo decided to use Wimberly to host a major and there were no other tournies that weekend, people had weeks to save up since their last excursion and people expected a pretty good field. I suspect it would be a success. This is just an example that probably would never happen, but in my mind at least, it shows that there may be lots of places that would do just fine, even if there was little historical precedence for the tourney.

IMO, all it would take is to have a willing and able TD/club; a couple of good courses; and a set-aside weekend where everyone's sights are set on travelling to the big golf tournament. :D

But we have to slide 90+ tournaments around now with maybe 20 having a history of more than 100 players in attendance. Do these magically become regional small events just because you tell them to ?

If we adopt this, there will be no room for any additional Majors and some existing Majors will be down classed by definition but probably not by attendance. You can't dictate to people where they have to play.

You can only dictate so much to TDs before they decide that they don't need to schedule unsanctioned events and start doing it on their own.

[QUOTE]
Well, that's 3 (I'm on the list too) out of 43.

Gary,

Make that 4 out of 43. You know I am willing to work with you to make it happen. You have a job that I would not want, that is working with all us TD's that want the same weekends. Keep up the great job you are already doing and know I am in your corner.

more top tier tourneys!!! why is there no invitation only tournies??

But we have to slide 90+ tournaments around now with maybe 20 having a history of more than 100 players in attendance. Do these magically become regional small events just because you tell them to ?



I think most of these tournaments had already become regional events with probably 80% or more of the competitors drawn from a regional pool.

I understand that this is a delicate subject for some TDs; a few might feel that it is an unnecessary encroachment on their turf, and it may adversely effect a few tourneys, but the positives will far outweigh the negatives. Our schedule sorely needs some focus and predictability. Ultimately, it will improve the growth of competitive disc golf in Texas.

This is a great thread James, thinking of something long enough to ask questions is a good start to solving a problem.

Through my 10 years of attending tournaments, I've noticed several interesting trends. Years ago, corrdinating tournament days with each other was not needed. Local sanctioned tournaments in the Houston area were not existent, regional gatherings where still the up and coming thing, and the Majors, well I can remember Waco and VPO as the only PDGA Majors within a 5 hour drive.

Fast forward several years later and each golfing community has developed many lower tiered events for there local player base. That development is effecting attendance at the regional and major tourneys. Why? because you can't travel to play every weekend; at least I can't; although I use to try.

Scheduling will only become harder as community based golfers develop there own tourneys. The need or desire to attend a tourney is being taken care of in their own backyard. However, I think these tourneys should take a back seat to the major tourneys that have history but more importantly that raise big $$$ to add to their purse.

Scheduling should (as I'm sure it does) take into consideration the following:
Historical prespective - the longer running tourneys should have first choice of a date.
Cash raised - If it's a true Major tournament, big time $$$ has been raised and they should have a say as to their date.
Lower tiered events and unsanctioned events should follow after that. Although, there's always the sleeper tourneys that are lower tiered, abit historical and have an huge player following. These are the up-incoming historical tourneys and they have earned some respect.

Some other thoughts I have about tournaments and courses:
Texas (south central at least) doesn't have enough major events that draw the biggest names in golf. And when we do, it's a Pro only event. Am's need and want to be participate in a tournament that our golden boys are attending. So maybe TD's could combine their C/B tiered tournaments and develop an A or a major event out of it.

Courses: Some Texas courses need a revamping. After attending last years Worlds; man, let's just say, we need to start planting trees and watering the helll out of them. No, really, I think many courses could use some re-design. Courses like Circle C have done a 180 in difficulty. The local players skills are sure to increase because of that re-design.Our little course in Hitchcock has a Monster layout assoicated with it now so tournament players can expand their skills beyond the pitch and putt game.

Some random thoughts for a Friday morning. As someone else said, " I wouldn't want Gary and Bryans job".

Everyone has a purpose driving their life, Gary and Bryan's is to make sense of our ever growing sport and our need to compete locally, regionally, and nationally.

Thanks to everyone that makes it happen!!!

Our PDGA Tier levels are a little out of whack with the reduction of requirements from last year to this year.
Non-PDGA, D-Tier and C-Tier should all be looked at as developmental tournaments. Regional tournaments without the hassle of added cash that provide great tournament experiences to regional folks. On certain weekends many of these could occur in many areas of the state. These should all be one day events.
B-Tiers should be a recognizable step-up. Actually adding some cash, having tradition of players, courses, food available etc. These should have little conflict from around the state and be focused drawing in the states traveling players.
A-Tiers should absolutely no sanctioned conflicts and be such the production as players from border states are wanting to travel in for them.
Not such a hard formula. The trick is getting the TX10, MaceMan, Gimp and JDGF to all be able to agree to leave the B-Tier and above schedule free from holding C-Tier, D or non on those weekends. Sure there may be other non-sanctioned events impede once in awhile, but getting these groups together, I think, is the key.
Presidence can be given for events based on how hard the TD and Club worked the previous year. Sponsorship, amenities, attendance formula. And, of course, leveraging of whether the mentioned TD's complied with scheduling their other Band lower events away from from others.
The cloudiness of the B-Tier AM/ C-Tier Pro at the same tournament should be eliminated in factoring. This system is a cope out for not having to raise any money for a C-Tier Pro event.

I agree with alot of what you said, with one exeption: in my mind (forget sanctioning rules), many B tiers can occur on the same weekends throughout the state. For example, just in my neck of the woods, I think about Red Rock Show, Coto, Live Oak, and probably others I missed. I think most of these are B-tiers and quality events; however, in reality, they are still regional events populated by mostly regional players. Sure, if there were no other regional B-tiers that weekend, they might draw slightly more, but would that slight increase justify not allowing a B-tier in DFW area or Houston that might draw similar numbers?

Jake, my little dream would to be marry our majors with our toughest courses. That would be the pinnacle of disc golf organization.

James, I think your confusing what the C-tiers roll is. Most people besides yourself and us choose to only do a certain amount of tournaments a year. I agree these B-Tiers are regional and Live Oak should draw from Austin and Houston. But, if Dallas had a B-Tier as well with higher entry and multiple days that would expire a tournament of the few that most people play. The Dallas folk may not travel the next weekend or whatever. Give Dallas a B-Tier the next weekend. That way you and I can travel and the locals hopefully don't get tapped out. We need these folks to support the A-Tier tournaments which have gotten slighted over the last several years-Big Show, Texas States, VPO.
I have often thought that maybe we need to eliminate a Tier.
NT-National Players, Local Support (one a year, maybe two spring/fall)
A-Tier-Featured Statewide representation, and border state players (every other month)
B-Tier- Regional (300 mile radius) staggered around the state for maybe one/two per month per state region.
C and D and Non- Locally supported

As the National Tour developes stronger and stronger, hopefully the PDGA will realize that it is tough on a US region to support Texas States one week, VPO the next, Oklahoma Open the next. Touring players may like this, but that should be the focus of the NT.

The schedule would work out to
6 Majors. (Two+ courses, full amenities, 120+ players)
6 semi protected multi-region large events. (21+ holes or tee times, 90+ players)
12 regional b-tier weekends (up to 5 regional B-Tiers) (1 or 2 day events, 75+)
24 local c-tier level weekends. (generally 1 day events, 50+ players)
Gaps for Christmas, Thanksgiving, and Worlds.

Now what do we already have ?
7 events that traditionally draw more than 120 players.
TX10 finals,World Doubles Am, TX States, TX St. Doubles, COTO, Carrollton, PGM/East Texas Open. (plus 7 of 9 TX10s)

7 events that traditionally draw between 90 & 120 players.
Red Rock Show, Waco Charity Am, PPO, LOSO, Victoria, Waterloo, and Oktoberfest. (plus the other 2 TX10s and this year I expect to see the JDGF to put half their events in this range)

8 events that are traditionally between 72 & 90 players.
Big Show comb,Poison Ivy open, Waco Charity Pro, Flying Solo, Big Arms, Outlaws, Top of Texas Open.

Who gets the top 6 spots, who gets the next 6.

The rest are all multi-event weekends so they are not as important.




GCCS series fits well into the c-tier level.
DFWFD series fits well into the c-tier level.
JDGF series could be getting too large for the c-tier level.
TX10 series is larger than the top level, but still one day events, could work in the c-tier level on wks 4 or 6 if not near the wk 5 event.

Also The PDGA schedules Waco Pro, Texas States, The TX10 finals, VPO Pro, World Doubles (Pro and AM), PDGA Worlds (Pro and Am). That's a good portion of the schedule I have no control over. Start putting events into slots and see how it works out.

wk 1 - Major Event
wk 2 - small local events
wk 3 - regional b-tiers
wk 4 - small local events
wk 5 - large cross-region events
wk 6 - small local events
wk 7 - regional b-tiers
wk 8 - small local events

back to week 1.
skip 1 weekend for Easter (no one wants it)
skip 1 weekend for worlds (different weekends for Am & Pro)
skip 1 weekend for Thanksgiving.
skip 1 weekend for Christmas.

I agree with a lot of what is being said here, but there is one thing that has not been addressed, and that is no matter how hard anyone of us works and how good the ideas seam the true test is weather any of the players make the effort to attend. I would caution anyone in this discussion from thinking that just because a bunch of people that make things happen in the state discuss this and think that we all have it worked out the test is still going to come when the players participate or not.

It may seam like you can solve the problem of low attendance or a lack of travelers at a particular event by not allowing a scheduling conflict, but if people are not going to travel they just aren't. I personally don't understand why many people don't want to travel to Austin or SA or Houston....well maybe I understand Houston :).... but seriously there are plenty of people that want no part of traveling. Saying that TD C can't hold an event in the DFW area due to TD B holding an event in Austin may not effect the Austin event at all, it may just leave the DFW golfers playing the weeklies that weekend.

I definitely think that there should be some protection for some of the events. I didn't think too much of the scheduling of the Victoria Open over the Z Boaz Open, until the last few days before the events. As the events neared my perception changed a bit and I became disappointed that this conflict was going on. As it turned out I got a fair draw from Austin and an outstanding draw from everywhere else...except Houston :). But if the Vic Open was a week earlier we both would have gotten 5 to 10 more players and that can make a difference.

Many TD's need to look at the effect that their events may and will have on other events and think about how they would feel if their hard work was getting tread on by someone's stubborn reluctance or accidental oversight to give up a weekend and move one forward or backward. Most of these events are in their infancy any way, and few of them are drawing from all over the country so the date is not that relevant in terms of tradition.

There are other things that need to be addressed such as the effect a non-sanctioned event can have on a sanctioned event. For instance an event in Waco at the same time that a Supertour is attempting to get off the ground in Tulsa. I am sure that Gimp had no intentions of hurting the attendance in Tulsa when he did that a couple of years ago, but I think that there is a very good chance that some DFW golfers would stay home and play in Waco instead of going to Tulsa to play a Supertour. Again there is no grantee that the DFW golfers would have traveled north or south for that matter, but the consideration needs to be there. There was another unsanctioned event last year that was deliberately placed in an area to keep people in that area from attending another long running B-tier event and sink it's boat :mad:, unsuccessfully (the boat sailed on down the Brazos with plenty of golfers on it :)) but it happened and that better not ever happen again. This is not what it is all about :confused:.

I am willing to be flexible on the scheduling of my Big Events to an extent. I choose the time frame for The Big Show based on 2 things: first that time frame was wide open in TX. Second I think that the prime time to run events in this state is fall through spring in that order. There should be no big events in the summer months here (June, July, August) for obvious reasons. I always schedule the Food Drive events when there is nothing close to conflict, a non-sanctioned event in DFW can certainly co-exist with an event in Austin, Houston, Nac and so on. There are so many golfers to go around. Lets work on scheduling, and lets go beyond that and try to get the players that are actively playing but not actively playing events back to the events.

I am giving serious consideration to moving the Z Boaz Open Pro weekend to the same weekend of Am World Doubles for two reasons; one there is no conflict there at all, and two I would like to have the Z Boaz Open in a green month (that course is so much more beautiful when it is green) and I don't want to just bully my way into the schedule in the spring. There is another reason, I am not going to run The Big Show as a two week three weekend series again anytime in the near future. It is too much work, two weekends is enough.

One other thing that is for sure, I will not run the Z Boaz Open on consecutive weekends for am and pro again any time soon. Meaning I will either work towards having the course on the north side of the tracks so both am and pro are on the same weekend or I will move the pro weekend to the Am World Doubles weekend. I separated the two because I felt that it was unfair that you would only play Z Boaz for 27 holes if you were an am, and that obviously doesn't matter as much as not getting wet. Total attendance over the last 4 years in reverse order Z 05 = 138, Z 04 = 124, Z 03 = 180, Z 02 = 146

And further more, there are several events that have been big in the past that have been overlooked recently by the players. Those events that warranted separate weekends in the past but don't now should probably combine again as I stated I would like to do with Z Boaz Open. There are only 52 weekends in a year as Laura stated and if your event is not peaked on both weekends go back to over full on one, if you get in you get in.

There was another unsanctioned event last year that was deliberately placed in an area to keep people in that area from attending another long running B-tier event and sink it's boat , unsuccessfully (the boat sailed on down the Brazos with plenty of golfers on it ) but it happened and that better not ever happen again. This is not what it is all about .





Was it a BIG boat that sailed down the BRAZOS? Are you sure it wasn't a little ARM of the BRAZOS, known as a tributary? Just searching for the facts.

Can a non-sanctioned event be considered a Major and get the scheduling protection that a Major should, or is it considered a regional event regardless of it's size ?

it should not even be considered when it comes to scheduling! at least by the PDGA and the PDGA state coordinator.

if an individual TD wishes to sanction their tourney against one of those events, then fine, the PDGA should absolutely sanction it. there is no reason for non-PDGA events to influence the scheduling of PDGA events. leave that decision making to the TDs!

i LOVE James' idea. here in DFW we cant even find one sanctioned event per month in our non-travel zone. If the majors are scheduled like a tour then we could have 1 decent sanctioned event per month locally. given that not all players travel, 2 decent sanctioned events per month might be do-able. add in the c-tiers and ther is still plenty of room for growth in the number of tourneys in texas. and the folks who have favs that require travelling, even though the event is b or c tier, would have a good chance of even working those events in.

it will be interesting to see how the addition of new courses impacts things. regional/local series of b-tiers, some of which could include 2 or more nearby courrses, would be very interesting. treat it like a tour or series. the TDs like Chris and Brian are finding that this formula has appeal. why not try it at the B-tier level?

By having all of the unsanctioned events on the 24 local event weekends, it ensures that there are no 2-day tournaments going up against a large unsanctioned event. It also gives plenty of flexibility for those events to schedule around each other.

Luckily the TDs of all of the major series try to schedule through the state coordinator. BTW, there is no scheduling restrictions for anyone trying to sanction an event against a non sanctioned event, it is just that very few TDs want to try and compete with a TX10 size event anywhere else in the state.

There are a few TDs out there that still have not gotten touch with me about their events (everything that shows up as pending in the schedule) and a few of those are non-sanctioned. I don't think I can get them to move their dates if they won't even confirm the current ones.

Bryan, I did address your point earlier by saying that traditional turnout has to take some priority in determining what is a major tournament because the players aren't going to go where you tell them to just because you call an event a Major.

This schedule allows for 6 weekends for events that require 2 or more courses (based on participation) and receive divisional protection.

6 Weekends for events that require additional holes or tee times (or two courses) that receive geographic protection.

12 weekends for events that can traditionally fit on a single course and are run at the same time as similar events in the other regions.

24 weekends for unsanctioned or emerging tournaments with very little protection.

Does this seem to fit everyone's needs ?

question: are the "reserved" weekends for the first two categories the same in every region? by this i mean can bigger event happen on the same weekend in different regions? it'd be better to stagger them, so that the folks who do travel for b-tiers or favorite events can attend their local/regional event, plus still get to an out-of-towner. ya know what i mean?

I agree with much of what Mace says...

I figure most players figure their DG scheduling more like I do -

There are certain tournaments that I really like to attend and I will plan for those all year long. But on a given weekend, when no climbers have signed up and I discover myself with a "free" weekend coming up, I look at the schedule and see where is the nearest tournament at this weekend.

There are so many of em I'm almost always guaranteed to find one...so I look at 'em and decide which one I want to go to and usually choose the highest tiered one. I've driven to DFW area before (5 hrs) but only caught TBS and a couple of Tx10 openers. It's probably more the case that I tend to drive to Austin and San Antonio (3 hrs)...I also pay attention to weather, if it looks like it's gonna be crummy locally, I'll drive somewhere else if I think it's gonna be dry...or "not snowing". :D Bottom line is, that I choose to play in certain tournaments regardless of anything else, and others (on free weekends) I choose based on a lot of different reasons, but I almost always choose the "closer" tournament. If invited by someone, or if asked to scorekeep for 'em, I'll be there. The friends I've met who I know will be there are what I base a lot of decisions on frequently too!

Does scheduling influence this? Yeah some...if only 1 sanctioned tourney were offered on a weekend, then I'd go there.

Of course the reserved weekends are the same everywhere. Exclusion zones already exist around all sanctioned events to protect them from local competition.

The request and focus was to protect major tournaments from all in state competition. 6 Majors would get exclusive weekends by divisions. A Pro only major and an Am only major could share the same weekend.

Large events that bridge regions get regional protection in the primary draw regions. Even though the PDGA would allow events by mileage, neighboring regions could not hold events against the larger events. This is also 6 weekends.

Medium sized events get region wide protection (already provided by the PDGA standards). No change from current policy except or the non-sanctioned exclusion. 12 weekends.

Small and unsanctioned events would be fighting for space in the remaining 24 weekends. Of course this will have the effect of putting some of the largest events in Texas the weekend before or after a major or other large event.

<font color="blue">All of this really hinges on the non-sanctioned TDs agreeing to limit their scheduling to the 24 weekends not slated for B-Tier and above events. </font>

What a weekend.

102 players in Nac, 52 Women at TWC, 160 at the Hillclimber, and 462 in Bowling Green.

I'm surprised that no one has ever tried to put together a "Memorial" or "Bowling Green" sized event in Texas. I know DFW could put one on, and maybe Houston or Austin. How many courses would be needed? It sounds like 4 or 5 would be needed at least, and 6 would make it comfortable. This might be a precursor to having the country know that north Texas is a great place to have a Worlds event at. I see already 5/6 courses that could be used:
1 & 2 Cedar Hill
3 Veteran's
4 Z Boaz
5 Crowley
6 Bear Creek OR Audoban OR some other 18-hole course

I don't know which would be better...Friday through Sunday or just Saturday & Sunday...
What would be the best place for the headquarters? Veteran's is pretty central, but there's not nearly enough parking. Same with Z-Boaz. Crowley might have enough parking since there's that community center right by it. Anyone else have any ideas on how to get an event of this caliber started?? I know it can be done, but it would take alot of local support! I guarantee that if hyped up enough, we'd get tons of people at an event like this...especially from Louisiana, Oklahoma, and all over Texas.

Forgot the most important thing -- when should this event be scheduled!!!?

We need to start with getting AM world's here. By doing so, it will showcase the area's best courses. Kind of like "build it and they will come", but really "show them it's here, and they will return." :D

I figured it would work in the opposite way...an event like this would lead to Worlds coming here, but if it's more likely that it would be the other way around, fine by me!

We already tried a few years ago. The main problem is the team that is going to run it. I have no problem being one of the underlings, but don't want to be the main TD/organizer.

Also, you really need courses that are closer together, and really in the same city. I have thought about a Lewisville/Carrollton tournament using all 4 courses, but getting both cities to work together would be hard. And you need the support of the city for a tournament that big.

What we were looking at was BB Owens, 2 at Flagpole hill, White rock lake and maybe a 4th or 5th course in the Flagpole Hill/ White Rock lake area. (personally, I would like to see Samual Park put used again, I heard great things but never got to play it)

I heard this weekend that Steve Wallace has almost got the city to agree to install the 18 baskets from EBR into the course being used for the MaceMan April 30th food drive event. (Flagpole Hill is having problems with the nieghborhood association)

Please pardon my ignorance, Bryan, but what does a failed attempt at trying this idea a few years ago have to do with not trying it again?

A majority of the mover and shakers in the DG community right now are on the FT Worth side of DFW, but they don't have enough courses yet to really go for it. (Arlington, ZBoaz and Crowley are all good, but in 3 different cities)

Cedar Hill, Crowley, Z-Boaz, and Veteran's are each within 30 minutes of each other. Why would they have to be in the same city? However, I think the biggest problem is back to the original title of this thread. When would such an event be scheduled?

Do it as the Am side of the Memorial so they can handle the volume with just Pros. I think I'd rather play what I've seen in DFW under competition conditions rather than Vista or Fountain.

Lewisville/Carrollton tournament using all 4 courses



Sorry, not trying to hurt anyone's feelings, but there would be no way that i would travel half way across the country to play those 4 courses.

Don't get me wrong, it's nice having them here with the option to play. I appreciate everyone's hard work installing them, and keeping them afloat, but they are no where near "Bowling Green/Memorial" quality.

Bryan is right about most of the movers and shakers being in Tarrant county. I don't see a problem with including all of DFW's best courses for a HUGE tournament, or AM world's.

One day play Dallas county courses, Cedar Hill and Audobon. The next day stay in Tarrant county by playing Vet, Z-Boaz, and/or Crowley.

While i was vacationing in Florida i heard on their local news that DFW is the nation's largest metropolitan area in terms of square miles. :D

Cedar Hill, Crowley, Z-Boaz, and Veteran's are each within 30 minutes of each other. Why would they have to be in the same city?



Laura,

After playing Bowling Green last weekend, one of the things that really made it work (logistically) was the proximity of the courses --- all of the courses were within 8 miles of each other. Which is a big difference compared to 30 miles.

462 players on 4 courses = 3 rounds being played on each course each day. This meant that time between rounds was severely minimized. On Saturday, we had right at 45 minutes between rounds. That would not work in the DFW area.

Also, in an event of that size with a substantial amount of traveling players (the majority of players at BG were not from KY or TN), many players car pool. And when players are playing in different pools at different lcourses, being able to get to-and-from each course becomes more difficult the further you drive.

I rode with two MA1 players who played different courses than I did each round. But, because of the proximity of the courses, we were able to still share a car.

I think an event of this magnitude could be pulled off at Wimberely + Twin Parks.

The courses are 20 miles apart...but each facility has two courses...thus you could minimize the driving required by scheduling each pool to play the two courses at one facility on each day.

Also, each facility could handle a significant amount of campers (cutting the cost of hotel rooms for many $$-concerned traveling AMs)...or there are plenty of hotels available in South West Austin--Dripping Springs--Wimberely.

Do it as the Am side of the Memorial so they can handle the volume with just Pros. I think I'd rather play what I've seen in DFW under competition conditions rather than Vista or Fountain.



Thanks for the compliments Chuck. You'd like Cedar Hill also......especially once all of the longer tee's and baskets are installed.

Iowa proved that proximity for worlds is not that important.
it's not the distance of the courses from the host area, but the distance of the courses from each other. The thing about DFW is that there are many convenient pairs of courses. You send a 2 pools out to 2 courses that are near to each other. They each play a course in the morning and swap for the afternoon. Then they travel back to the Tourney central area. Somewhere mid cities far enough away from the Airport to get affordable Hotel rates.

If you are in Arlington or Irving, nothing is really more than a half hour away.

......or Euless. It takes me 10 minutes to go from my garage to any gate at DFW INT. :D

I would consider travelling if I got to play Veteran's and Z-Boaz.

You could conceivably have 4 flights if flights A and B played 2 rounds per day and flights C and D played one round per day.

Something like Saturday morning with A at Vet and B and Z-Bo. Long break for lunch and switch courses while C plays the Vet and D plays Z. Then for the late round A plays Z-Bo and B plays Vet. On Sunday you switch so that D plays the Vet and C plays Z-Boaz for the middle round.

You could fit a lot of players that way. Although Rec and Junior are the obvious candidates for the one round a day thing, and I don't know if you have enough locals to fill 2 flights of that.

I love to hear y'all thinking big, but I'm not familiar with Bowling Green and reasons it is so successful. Why do you think the tourney is so successful. Do the factors encompass more than just courses and their proximity? Did this tourney start small and grow at a steady rate, or was it a relatively large tournament at its conception?

Everything can be worked out logistically to make it work. It is not that hard to schedule around the distance between courses.

One thing people have to realize is that events like The Memorial and Bowling Green is that they started out as any other, a local big event and grew into a giant event. There are too many reasons to mention that an event doesn't just start out being a Bowling Green Open. It has to grow into something like that. It is nearly impossible to rush the process, look at USDGC for example the first year there weren't even 70 players.

That growth takes support from the local players, as well as players from the neighboring cities and states. That means that players have to commit to play the events regardless of weather it may rain or be windy or what ever. The TD doesn't have a bail out if it rains, why should the players take the easy way out and leave the event holding the bag? This is where the players have the big role in the success of an event, they have to sign up and show up and participate.

These are in order as they appear on the calendar, Z Boaz Open, Waco Charity Open, TX States, and Veterans Park Open and they are the Am events that are in a position to become the BG Open of Texas. But if they aren't supported by player participation then the growth is impossible. These events have all been under-attended by the players of TX the last two or more years and that would have to change. The way things are right now many people are not traveling to the events that are in place and poised to grow into the Big Event for this state.

One key aspect of BG is it's likely close to the centroid of North American PDGA membership. The true centroid is probably between KC and BG so both areas pull well. I suspect if St. Louis gets its act together, it has the potential to be big time down the road. The Mid-America in Columbia, MO used to be one of the big time events and I think accessibility had some part in that. The snowbird factor has to be one of the main draws for the Memorial although now it has the party time lore drawing people back also. I don't think you'd see half as many go there in May once the weather got better up up north and our courses are humming.

The individual BG courses are pretty average so that can't be the primary draw. Their strength as a group of four is excellent balance in terms of variety in one place. Hobson is the only one I would pull off the expressway to play because it's fun (in all fairness, I haven't seen White but it sounds pretty open). They do run a great event and have excellent volunteers. But so do several other places who don't pull as many players and likely may never do so.

I think DFW could put together a winning combo if they mixed the snowbird factor, their relatively central location and a nice mix of courses.

If I was pulling off the interstate to play it would be Keriakes or Lovers. :cool:

Maybe this is coming from a somewhat new (< 2 years) competitive player, but it seems to me that some of the bigger events (Z-Boaz, Waco, Vet, etc.) have not been hyped up as much as they used to be. I had to seek them out myself by looking at the calendar, not by hearing about them from other people or advertised at local courses.

If it were advertised heavily (not necessarily heavy in $ terms) that a huge event would take place in DFW, utilizing 4-6 of the top area courses, I think it would have promise. If you throw in some huge unique benefits, I think it would help attendance even more. One thing I think has been greatly overlooked is using a gift card/debit card for payout. Yeah, there are those people out there who will argue that paying out amateurs is killing the sport (personally, I'm neutral on it--I'd play either way), but it's obviously accepted by a vast majority of the players. This eliminates a ton of the time that it takes to finish off the event once players are done. Total up the scores, have some fun stuff to do in the meantime, and then do the awards ceremony. Mail out the gift cards, and players that cashed can use those to get whatever they want from the website that sponsors the event. Everything else aside, I think alot of people would consider a large event such as this just due to the payout. Who knows whether pro's would come as well if it was a mixed event, but given that the area has great pairs of courses to use, plenty of good, cheap places to stay, a major airport nearby, and plenty of fun stuff to do, I don't see why an event like this wouldn't work if it was hyped up enough, and on a non-conflicting, sub-100� weekend.

kentucky doesn't have tournaments every weekend.
If you only eat once a year.....everyone will show to eat

<< I eat a lot! :D

We're not talking about crow :o:D

Gary, where do we stand regarding the template for tourney scheduling next year? The basic concepts, in my memory at least were the following:

* break the state into regions;

* have an eight week rotating schedule;

* on week eight, there would be a tourney that noone could schedule against;

* each region would have the opportunity to schedule the bigger two-days (B tier type tourneys) every two or three weeks within that eight week cycle;

* these B tier type tourney weekends would be staggered by region so that they would hopefully not conflict with other regional B-types. In other words, region 1 would have a b on week 1, region 2 on week 2, and so on. This way, the travellers could still make the bigger two-day events without missing another big two-day event;

* Within each region, they can fill in the non week eight and non b type weekends with whatever they choose. This leaves ample weekends for regional one day events.

I understand that the details such as defining regions and making room for the doubles tourneys will be very problematic, but it does seem like it provides at least a little order to the present madness.

This is my recollection. Is it close?

Your recollection is correct. I have to see how the A-Tiers and other events come out. It may have to shift to a 6 or 7 week schedule to allow more room for A-Tiers that do not fall into the schedule.

The idea is that the top 6-8 B-tier events all get protection from direct competition. A week break between B-tiers, and then smaller B-tiers scheduled against each other. it may work better to alter the plan to have the large B-tiers alone, with no large tournaments before or after, then a week or two where there are a limited number of smaller B-Tiers with other regional events. I have to see what can be moved, and who is willing to shift their dates.

Whatever happens, it has to meet the needs of the TDs as well as provide less conflicts for the touring players.

My largest concerns are the outlying areas that have always had a good turnout and even tweak the schedule to help them draw players. Places like Athens, Nacogdoches, Corpus, Lubbock, and Amarillo need some consideration from the larger markets to grow.

I would like to thank the following for what they have done for me and Disc Golf the past couple of years.

John Edwards for rebuilding tournaemnt golf in southeastern Texas and specifically for getting Nacogdoches to a level that I don't have to worry about it happening every year.

Mark Atwood, Billy Nelson, and Chris Himing for working with Victoria to help them out until they can get the club strong enough to handle the tournaments themselves.

Many individuals in the Windriders for keeping Big Arms alive and well.

Billy Nelson for what he is doing in south Texas. Big things are in the works.

John Rock for keeping Amarillo on the PDGA map.

Brian Schmidt for taking over LOSO at the last minute and pulling of a very big B-tier his first timeout.

Waterloo for helping keep so many things up and running.

Joey Harrell for continuing to put on the large Waco events without the support of a large club or support staff. Your efforts are appreciated.

Chris Himing and Tom Lowry for letting me man handle their schedules to prevent conflicts.

Vinnie for his support and the effort he puts in for Disc Golf in general. Support the TWC we've got to stay ahead of Peoria, It's a Texas thing.

Brian Mace and Bryan James for keeping Athens alive.

HFDS for all they have done for Texas Disc Golf.

James McCaine for always making me look at things from another point of view (because he never agrees with mine).

Bryan James, Brian Mace, Vinnie Miller, Chris Himing, Ray Murray, Gordon Maxim-Kelly, John Edwards, Billy Nelson, Mark Atwood, Larry Kruse, and all of the others I have on speed dial for all of the support and advice you have given me over the last couple of years.

This sounds like a goodbye speech, and it could be. With the normal voter turnout, all it would take is one club to get together and write in a candidate and I could hand this job off to someone else.

BTW, I don't know whether to thank Chris for changing the face of tournament Disc Golf in Texas with the TX10 or curse him for making my job tougher. It has done tremendous things for Disc Golf in Texas, and it's success had to have some influence in the other series that are currently competing for space in the schedule. Without them the schedule would be much easier to manage, but I think I would be working for a much smaller group of players.

No Gary Thank you for all you have done for all of us.You got my Vote .And Yes For the record i would love to see a Texas series That benifits The state Championship .But I would most definitly like to see that Championship Moved around the state .I think this would help everyone involved in the long run .I do not in any way mean to offend the HFDS they have done a great job with this in the past .But I think change is always good.Just My opionon Though.

The biggest problem as I see it is the scheduling of BIG events (Majors, NTs, A-tiers), which Gary has little to no say in. The SC's need more power/influence than they currently have.

The shuffling of Mace's A-tier to overlap Victoria was something that Gary could have worked on at the beginning (when the PDGA moved it), not at the end (trying to shuffle everyone else), of the process.

I contacted the TD when the schedule first came out. We discussed options, and he (Chris) decided that keeping it on that date was the best option and didn't see that there would be a large conflict between the two events. There wasn't a large conflict, but there was significant conflict. By the time the event changed TDs and others expressed concern it was too late to move the event. I have already been in contact with Mace about his schedule for next spring to avoid conflicting dates between the Big Show and Victoria, but again we are at the mercy of the PDGA and the A-tier schedule. I can't make any useful changes to the schedule until I get those dates.

You illustrated my point beautifully Gary. The SC should be involved in the conception of the schedule, and not changing things after it's out. It's harder to retro-fit than create. I thought part of the new Tour Manager's job was to start the schedule earlier, but we've been told we are on the same timeline as previous years.

And while I like the idea of States being here, I see the benefit of moving it around (along the 35-45-10 triangle -- a 3-yr cycle? Houston, DFW, SA/Austin?). But where else are there 3 courses available? I'm thinking that John's idea is at worst a solid frame to build a true Statewide series around.

And Gary, thank you. Your willingness to put up with all of this and attempt to make some sense of the Texas jumble is greatly appreciated. Both USDGC rep concepts were great options and provided the entire state a chance to qualify. I think we all should vote for Himing to replace you, as payback. :)

That was part of my point. I don't think there is anywhere else that is ready to put on States at this point in time. I would like it to be a carrot to encourage championship caliber course development and get a few more world class courses in the ground. I do see the opportunity for several cities putting in serious bids within a few years of beginning the concept.

I also see it as being good for Houston to have a couple of years break between running the event. I know it is a drain to start gathering resources for the next one the weekend after it's over. Having a few years to recover and prepare for the next one could only be a good thing for the event in the long run. I would like to see a minimum of $2,500 sponsorship cash plus 3 championship level courses before a city/club could host the event.

These are just ideas, and John is the first to organize something. He is doing it mainly on his own right now, and he needs support. I was caught off guard, but am behind the concept now.

I owe him thanks for forcing the issue. Now I have to figure out how to coerce the rest of the schedule to clean up some of the conflicts that currently exist and try to honor some of the date change request I have already gotten.

Gary Coastal Clash ,Shule School ,And the South Texas Am Shootout ,Move them where you want Just let me know .Remember the Plan For the Am shootout for next year though .I think if we all get on Board and work together To make this happen Not only will it make it easier on every body but the quality of our events will increase .And it might even Help Texas with Bigger and Better things to come .

Gary, I certainly appreciate what you are trying to do. The first attempt will probably fall short in some respects, but taking the first step in the right direction is quite an accomplishment in itself.

I realize that this is heresy, but I personally don't see the draw of "A tier status." I would hope that TDs would limit their big events to the dates that Gary sets aside rather than be fitted into the PDGA's A-tier schedule. The heresy part is that in order to do that, they might need to call them a B-tier rather than an A-tier. If they raised the same amount of added cash and ran the same quality event, the numbers would be the same. I suspect that there are peope that might pass if an A-tier quality event was only sanctioned as a B-tier. However, most people really don't care.

In the same vein, I like the idea of promoting Texas States as a big event, but couldn't each region just put on their one big event for the year, scattered throughout the calendar? Does it really matter if that big event has the moniker of "Texas States"?

Inforce a higher standard for B tiers in Texas.

I was not in favor of the PDGA lessing the requirements in the added cash.

I think in Texas we should not let a tournament become a B-tier unless they guarantee $1000 added to pro division.

If a tournament does not make this, they have to run as a large C-tier the next year. Only tournament that make the cut as a C-tier can move up to a B-tier.

Make all the B-tier tournaments in Texas qualifiers for Texas State Championships. You only have to play one to qualify for the chance of the title of state champion.

You could also have some C-tier events be qualifiers, but you would need to play at least 2 C-tiers. You could even do non santioned events and make it minimum of 3 events.

I don't know, just thoughts off the top of my head

A rose by any other name...

I'd have to agree having seen what the TX10 did in the last few years.

Bryan, you make some good points on raising the bar on "B" tiers. I've been doing some research on making LOSO an "A" tier, and i'm not sure it's worth it. "A" tier requirements as you know are $100 sanctioning fee vs. $75; $4 per player to the PDGA vs. $3; $1,000 added cash to the pros, that's ok; $25 players package to ams (really cuts into the payout unless you up the entry fee; no non-pdga members can play (we had 44 at LOSO); can't have another "A" tier within 1000 miles on the same weekend unless the TDs agree; and you have no control over the schedule, well less than you have now.

For all this, you get to call your tournament an "A" tier, players get more points, and you get on the PDGA home page and their slick little calendar of events we all get in our TD package. Oh, and did I mention you have to be invited to be an "A" tier by the PDGA. Don't get me wrong, I love the PDGA, and am a proud member, but I'm not sure I'm getting value for value here.

You get more than just that from the PDGA, you get a PDGA Marshall too. (there use to be a little sponsorship at one point, or was that just for NT events.)

I believe the sponsorship is just for NTs. "A" Tiers are fine if you can draw the big guns out, but I doubt an "A" tier in South Texas in the middle of Summer would draw Mr. Doss from 72 degree Santa Cruz! "B"esides, "B" Tiers are "B"eautiful :D

The money-making pros don't care about A vs B tier, but money is probably significant to them. I suspect that some ams needing points care about A vs B, and that is a legitimate reason for A status, but the PDGA needs to understand that the needs of the local players supercedes their desire to have some "tour." Besides, isn't that what the NT tour was for anyway? Do we need them dictating our schedule anymore than they already are?

Thank you for the mention.

I've been helping keep the Panhandle courses on the PDGA map for a long, long time. I don't get to do as much traveling as I used to do, but I do spread the word about the courses we have here in the Panhandle. A lot of people don't realize the quality of our courses until they get to play them, and then they would love to play them more but we are just so far away from the major metro areas. The trip here is not too bad, but that road home seems to take FOREVER!!!

I would like to see Texas States rotate around, it would make it easier for more people to attend at least once in a while. In my career, I have never played Texas States (I did play in quite a few of the Texas State Over-all Championships in Austin). The only time I got to spend time in Houston was in 1990, before the courses got installed. So the only golf I have played there was at a community college in Texas City where I was working on a project at a nursing home. No baskets, but still fun.

Back to the North Side -
Someday I hope to have the chance to help host Texas States here. We have an excellent course in the ground already, and the Parks & Rec. people have expressed interest in making Disc Golf as big as possible for our town. We have plenty of room for more courses (Championship style as well as easier courses). In fact, Thompson Park has the room (and natural features) for two more Championship courses. How conveinent would that be, having all three courses for Texas States at the same location? I realize I'm dreaming, but maybe, someday........

BTW, I don't know whether to thank Chris for changing the face of tournament Disc Golf in Texas with the TX10 or curse him for making my job tougher. It has done tremendous things for Disc Golf in Texas, and it's success had to have some influence in the other series that are currently competing for space in the schedule. Without them the schedule would be much easier to manage, but I think I would be working for a much smaller group of players.



Thanks Gary :confused: :)

Wow I go away for a few days and look at what happens. It has taken me a while to catch up so I will try to chip in and give some thoughts.

Before I do I would like to say thanks to Gary for everything he does for everyone in Texas Disc Golf.

And one more thing...keep an eye out for a few surprises about myself and Texas 10 in the next few weeks. The amazing thing is Gary as the TX State Co-ordinator is fully aware of my train of thought and ideas. There will be no surprises for Gary and the PDGA but may well be for some people and places.

It's funny how some people praise you and then turn around the next moment and stab you in the back. It's funny how when people get what they want they are your best friends, and then when they don't they stab you in the back. People can think what they want about me, my tour, and my ideas but never underestimate why I do it.

People critisize Texas 10 for taking over so many of the scheduled weekends a year. Well let me give you a little history lesson. Back 5 years ago when those 10 dates were selected there were no conflicts, no over population of events and no one wanting to do that many events. I worked with the then TX co-ordinator not to conflict with anyone. All of a sudden Texas 10 was a huge success for a multitude of reasons. Why did these events average over 160 plus people per event for almost 3 years? Everyone has there reasons. I am thinking people liked things that I was doing and why I was doing them. PDGA sanctioned or not, one day or two...who cares these 160 plus people each event had fun playing disc golf. Why was it that when copy cat style events showed up they got way less than half the numbers? In those times many of the exisiting PDGA events still had the same numbers as before Texas 10. That is because people now had a choice. The strong events still had the same number of players. In the later years if someone scheduled whatever style of event on a Texas 10 weekend that was not my fault. They knew the numbers that they were up against. The PDGA and the TX co-ordinator had to allow it because Texas 10's were not sanctioned but they still had a choice. They knew there was a Texas 10 that same weekend.

A little friendly advise to those that try and do copy everything I do, I am three steps ahead of you anyway. Ask my friends how I think and what some ideas I have are and you may be in for a surprise.

To those TD's like Vinnie, Billy, Waterloo, Mace, Pizza that believe in what they do and why they do it, thank you. Disc Golf in Texas has changed over the last 4 or 5 years and it is you guys that will manage that change.

I look forward to the next year with or without the Texas 10. I will put my support and ideas behind a traveling state event if Gary can pull it off. Anything is possible in Texas.

As I say that I am preparing to kick off the Oklahoma 3. Three PDGA B-tiers across Oklahoma in 3 months. Thanks to the Okie boys and Twisted Flyer for making it possible and believing it would work. I am happy to help in anyway.

Time to go and do what I do...organize disc golf events, raise some money for charity and have some fun out on the course.

Thanks
Chris :cool:

Chris, Thank you from Oklahoma. I was at the TEXAS 10 Carity tour when you had your $10K hole in one. I was there with Coda that day and watched him hit the nipple and bounce off.............. I was a great experience. I have not put a disc down scince then..

You have made an impact from on an OKIE (SOONER FAN) :)

If you want to start a Oklahoma 24 with Joe I know us Okies' will support you and all your great charities.

Keep up the good work!

Jason Schwake
OKIE

To those TD's like Vinnie, Billy, Waterloo, Mace, Pizza that believe in what they do and why they do it, thank you. Disc Golf in Texas has changed over the last 4 or 5 years and it is you guys that will manage that change.



You are right Chris, no one in the Houston/Beaumont/Conroe areas have done anything positive for disc golf in the past few years with the events that have been run here by various TD�s including myself.

2002 Pros Worlds, Texas States, the Conroe and Woodlands events, the local GCCS events and the Spring events have all been garbage. HFDS has of course not sponsored any events either with cold hard cash�

You of course have NEVER made anyone mad (Texas State Coordinator) or added competing events to weekends that have other events or stood in the way of a new large Texas A-Tier being added.

Sometimes it would be best to keep your mouth shut and stop throwing daggers with your sly comments ***roll eyes***. You are the definition of �full of [I'm a potty-mouth!]� when you start spewing rhetoric like that. I love what you have done for golf and have always been sincere to you both in person and behind your back, not that you would know anything about being two faced Chris. When you are done, throwing yourself parades for how great you are, perhaps you can learn a little humility.

BTW Chris we know your events are great, that you have �secrets� planned for the future that only a great savvy business man like yourself could think of and that you are poor because you do it all for us� But don�t let that stop you, please tell us again�

No one said anything about not being positive events, no added money, garbage events or whatever. I am referring to those people as the ones that I know have made suggestions for the re-shuffle of the schedule. I am sure we would all like to hear from Larry Kruse as well. See my point how people read into things and get offended? No harm intended to anyone or group of people. We are all disc golfers remember?

Of course the HFDS has done good and helped many people (including myself), I have never said anything different and never will.

Why do I protect Texas 10 and my ideas? Maybe because I am proud of them and believe in them. Having passion for one's work or dream is not a bad thing. Just look at the good that came from a dream Vinnie had (scary enough in itself) regarding the TWC. If you believe in it you will protect it and be positive about it.

Again I will say I am in support of the formation of a state wide touring major event or whatever it ends up being called.

I will be back online in a few days to see what rumors have started. :D I don't get much access up here in nowhere Oklahoma.

And to you Mr.Bender for even suggesting I was to go for the TX State Co-ordinator role...I have a nice piece of beachfront property in the Outback if you are interested. :D

You two play nice, I need both of you working with me and maybe even together to straighten this out.

I think he was just suggesting that you should have to deal with the mess you admit to having caused. Not directly, but through the demonstrated success of the TX10 tour concept. It wasn't the first series of unified events, but it was the first around here in a while. Now I have to deal with 4 series of events scrambling for time in the calendar (and that's with one having dropped).

I'm not complaining (loudly), just explaining. There's a lot shaking out this year. Some places going back to old ways, some places trying on new things, some places just moving around the calendar to find a better fit.

A word to the players. Pick your favorite events and support them. Their attendance will have some effect on how protected they are in the schedule.

It never ceases to amaze me how people with a common interest and goal can lay into each other instead of working together. DG is no exception.

Some things to remember:

The idea of one-day events did not originate in Texas.

The idea of a series did not originate in Texas.

Texas 10 and GCCS are both great series that bring a huge value to our state.

One of the reasons that Texas 10 works so well is that it encompasses some basic marketing principles into a neat package. Those principles have been around for a loooooooong time. Now remove Texas 10 and put in GCCS. Another reason why these two series work well is because each is managed by a highly competent, motivated TD.

On a different note, One day events and series are the foreseeable future, especially in Texas. The reality is the two-day events are time consuming, and exhausting. They work fine for young guys who can go crash in a field and not spend too much money beyond their entrance fee. The real money in this sport is going to come from older players (that is simple reality). One-day events take advantage of this. Furthermore, and let me emphasize that most of all, these events are cost effective. They are easier to manage and support.

The series format gives incentives to participate and brings other psychological and tangible benefits to the player. That is, they give the player a sense of belonging to something and give bonus payouts.

The combination of these factors makes these types of events work. Given that, I expect to see more. The $64,000 question... How do we make those types of events work together and how do we use them to grow disc golf in Texas? Whether that involves a large scope series that moves a state championship from region to region or one championship with all the series feeding into it, I can't say. But I will say that CK's notion that Texas States should move from region to region seems fair and a good way to grow disc golf here. The question is what would the format be and how would/could the state and the TDs in the state support that? If we are to fulfill the brag that Texas is the disc golf capital of the world (and I think we should aim for that) then we need to a better structure than we have period. Until we come to a consensus and work together we will languish in the shadow of NC, Michigan and other states that do it better.

Can you imagine how gross and sloppy the kiss is going to be when everyone kisses and makes up?

http://www.arbeitslosenverwaltung.de/pics/gifs/puke.gif

And to you Mr.Bender for even suggesting I was to go for the TX State Co-ordinator role...I have a nice piece of beachfront property in the Outback if you are interested. :D



Isn't the whole Island beachfront property? :)

Now something more serious...

What mess did John create? That he acted instead of called a "summit?" On one point John is dead right...we talk too **** much about this and no one does anything. Calling a meeting wouldn't have accomplished what this has, bringing the issue to becoming reality. The details of moving this from a "Houston" thing to a full fledged Texas thing are minor, if the big picture is really the goal of all involved. But the big picture isn't going to happen overnight, if simply because Houston and Live Oak are the only two places I can think of that have 3 courses close enough together to pull it off (Waco - Woodway close enough?).

I personally don't think that "the future" is or is-not one-day events. The beauty about Gary's proposal is that it has the ability to accomodate both, if everyone plays along. There won't be one-day events on the major dates, but there can be one day events on all other dates, but they must be scheduled on certain weekends within the regional schedule. That is my understanding at least. The way I envision Gary's idea at least, there will be ample room for these one day events within the regional framework. They may clash with one-day or two-day events from other regions, but will not clash with events within their own region.

BTW. Happy belated b-day TB. I see you share it with the Rocket. Go Stros.

<font color="red">[Grunion, if you are 'proposing' things to the PDGA, bring them formally to the board and staff, please.] </font>

I personally don't think that "the future" is or is-not one-day events. The beauty about Gary's proposal is that it has the ability to accomodate both, if everyone plays along. There won't be one-day events on the major dates, but there can be one day events on all other dates, but they must be scheduled on certain weekends within the regional schedule. That is my understanding at least. The way I envision Gary's idea at least, there will be ample room for these one day events within the regional framework. They may clash with one-day or two-day events from other regions, but will not clash with events within their own region.

BTW. Happy belated b-day TB. I see you share it with the Rocket. Go Stros.



Excellent point!

Well I had a really good idea and it was deleted. If you would like to hear it then email me at grunion_2001@yahoo.com

It helps everyone out and adresses most of maces concerns along with everyone else. There was a peice in there taylored towards you to James. Good work guys.

I truely believe I have found the solution. It touched everyones thoughts and also made the puses bigger for the PDGA sanctioned events. I thought about it for 10 hours and it hit me like a ton of bricks. Let me know if you would like to hear what I had to say.

Tony, if you read my post a little more carefully, I was referring to the suggestion that Chris run for state coordinator and clean up the mess HE started. John didn't cause any problems. Chris started the recent surge in multi-event series. Without the recent increase, we would have plenty of room in the calendar to put things.

It was all tongue in cheek, and it will be a challenge to put it all together. Not a bad thing, just a challenge. No one is arguing over Houston holding on to TX States.

Like Chris says, if you don't hear it from me don't believe it, and please don't jump to conclusions about anything I do say. I don't set out to offend, and if it what I say offends, I probably misstated something, or it was taken in the wrong light.

I'm not saying you will like everything I have to say, but I won't go out of my way to upset anyone. We've got to work together to make thinks better, no one person, city, or club is big enough to do it alone.

without going through the whole thread..I must say scheduling Texas for a single event each weekend is almost impossible...enjoy the choices...overall, the bigger our game gets..Texas, Cali, Mi, WI, OH and FL (sorry if I left your state out) will lead the way...multiple choices for a tounament weekend is not a bad thing...embrace the fact you can choose where you want to play, get points for Worlds and support disc golf!

Back when you had one big tournament a month, that tournament would get players from all over the state.

Now there are more tournaments than there are weekends, players have a choice. With the price of gas more than double what it was a few years ago, it cost a heck of a lot more to drive 300 miles to play. (for me that round trip cost $92 in gas alone.)

sure we got choices...every weekend.
All these events are local pdga minis.
The same guys you play with durning the week.

Can we try to approach this thing from the concept(s) of the things we agree on as a starting point?

1. We all seem to agree that we'd like to see a Texas State Championship where players need to qualify first, right?

2. We all seem to agree that rotating the "finals" for this series around between the major cities is a fair thing, right?

3. For a series to work with a bonus payout, there needs to be some contribution from each of the "qualifier" events towards the bonus payout.

4. Whether a qualifying event, or the rotated final event, we'd all agree that each TD wants to see the participation in their event increase in attendance because of it. (This should answer the "why would I want to have my event be a qualifier" type questions...also known as the "What do I get out of it" syndrome.)

5. Every TD wants have the honor and prestige of being able to run a "final/Championship" event. (C'mon guys, be honest - we all want a shot at trying to run the top event of the nation...and it could be too!)

6. It requires a concensus between all of the participating TDs/clubs/organizers in order to pull off. (It should also go without saying that there has to be some give and take on everyone's part - aka: compromise!)

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Now...there may be a few other things that we can all pretty much universally agree on, right? C'mon, don't be shy - let's get the main stuff we can agree about on the table.

Here are a couple of my thoughts that need to be factored into consideration:

1. Host cities of The Championship need to have at least 3 championship level courses on them, and it has to have at least one place to call headquarters for the weekend.

2. Houston has Tom Bass Park in a single location.

3. DFW has 3-4 great courses but over a considerable distance from one another. Vet seems most central to me and it had a pavilion near #1's tee.

4. San Antonio has 2 championship level courses at Live Oak, but lacks a 3rd course. I hear rumor that Live Oak might need some momentum to get a 3rd course installed...would this be a reason?

5. Austin has more than 3 great courses but all of them seem (unfortunately) widely separated in distance and no place to serve as HQ. (Circle C might have a pavilion though?)

6. Every TD that runs a qualifier event, ought to have a chance to run a Championship event too...even if it isn't necessarily run in their own set of courses. This means that essentially, we'd set the hosting city rotation schedule and then drop the name of every qualifier TD in a hat and draw for which would get to be the Championship's TD for that year.

7. Another crucial point (to me) is that even the host city needs to run a qualifier event and to financially contribute toward the final event. (In some cases, particularly so in Houston, we need to add another event to our calendar. Sorrry Gary! :D)

8. If the TD of the Championship is rotated around every year, then much of the tournament fundraising must come from the qualifying tournaments - since there wouldn't be any way that Brian Schmidt (for example) might be effective in trying to raise funds in Houston from a remote city.

Can we use any of this as a basis for forming a State series now?

It's true that Live Oak only has two course but we seem to forget just about 3 or 4 miles down the road Universal City has an 18 hole course :D

Larry, I like a lot of what I read. However I offer a couple of suggestions:

1) Have the name Texas States stay in Houston. The possible utility of having the big tourney always called Texas States is not worth the bad feelings it might create. It is just a name.

2) I personally like the idea of qualifiers that add money to a purse and such, but I would prefer to see it start more at the regional level. Rather than getting many existing tourneys to uplift the final tourney, I would prefer that each region use their regional tourneys to add money for their own big regional tourney, maybe with a small amount added to the state biggie.

I think growing at a regional level is healthier in the long term, much easier to actually pull off since cooperation between regional people is probably more likely than cooperation across the state.

All in all, I guess I'm saying that focusing primarily on one big tourney is too much to bite off right now. Focus more on the regions and build up to that eventual goal.

James for SC! :)

I wouldn't have a problem floating the States name around, but others here might.

Otherwise, I agree with James. Sometimes he just makes too much sense for an Astros fan.

Well said James.

Can someone (Gary) please update us on the progress of anything that has resulted from these discussions.

I agree with Tony. While it was a great idea to jump on the Texas States name, I think that long term it is short sighted to give Houston ownership of that title. The reality is that the regional structure that has been discussed here will bring more money and participation to all areas in the State (including Houston) than Houston holding on to the "State Championship" title will. I also agree with Tony, that is going to be rejected by many in Houston, but if our goal is to support the State and grow disc golf in the State then...

The idea of having regional qualifiers with regional tournaments is a great one. The Dallas Ft. Worth Regional... The Houston Regional... The San Antonio/Austin Regional Those are great names and would do a great deal to legitimize and empower disc golf in Texas. It also gives a starting point for regional competition, i.e. our region is better than your's is. The idea of a rotating State Championship that is really a State Championship is a great one. Personally, if I were in charge I would nominate Mr. Himing (or similar ilk, Gary?) to be the acting Chair of the State Championship, who's job it is to work with TD's in each of the regions to bring off the event. Having a State Chairperson means that someone will be there to make sure things happen and that the support and experience from previous events gets maintained and passed around.

what..... everyone thinks it is a good idea NOW!
Wait are we talking and not acting. I say lets jump off the cliff to figure out far it is to fall.

I want everyone to know "I" want to see the STATE/ REGION be all it can be. And "I" am willing to do what ever it takes....

I would love to see Waterloo, Round Rock, Live Oak and/or any other clubs in our region (hard to describe without knowing the exact regions) working together in a series and culminating with a quality event that could rotate on a yearly basis.

We have lots of open dates for one-day regional events (C-tiers) that could be used as fund-raisers towards the final event.

I would like to see that too.

I still have a problem with Houston calling the "Texas State Championships" theres and no one elses. As I stated before, unless you got approval from John Houck, he ran the Texas State Championships in Carrollton for at least 2 years when i first started playing. (1988, 1989)

let it be known that the Carrollton Open has no problem with joining in on a State level tournament. And NO, I don't want to run Texas States. (EVER)

This year I am going to put that $2 for Charity into The Methodist Hospital Foundation transplant unit in the memory of Father Dave Tayloe.

But next year, I could give it to the Texas State Championships. (where ever they are going to be held)

Wow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D

We seem to be missing some input from some of the more notable state TDs...well Mr. Mace, Mr. Maxim-Kelley, Mr. Nelson, Mr. Houck?

There seems to be a turning tide here...and I'm **** glad to see it! :D

If we can get evrybody on the same page and put all our egos on the back burnner I think this will be a huge step for Texas .I love the Idea of a roving Championship ,But then I havent been working all this time On the one we have.I think Mr Duke has something up his sleeve to make this all work out .I have already said all my events are on the table move them where they need to be to make anything easier .I only have One course so I can never Host the final I would just like to see the WHOLE State work together .I was A little Fired up about this Last week and if I offended anyone I apologize.Lets do this.

Well, here is a thought, and just a thought, but it might work.

What John wants to do is a great start, about making the TX State Championships the culmination of a series. But let�s take it to an even higher playing field....

What if ALL, and I mean ALL....B-tiers have a bonus section and ALL, and I mean ALL....C-tiers have a bonus section. Here is what I mean.....

Over 95% of all TX State Championship players have played in one or more B or C-tier tournaments during the year, so that lets all of these tournaments be a qualifier for "The Championship'. So, now tack on an extra fee, like John and Chris do and we now have the added bonus and added payout for an EXCELLENT...Texas State Championships, A-tier event. It will mean extra work for all TD's, but it makes it all worth the extra effort at the end.

Here is what I mean : All C-tiers will support the TX State Championship by donating $1 toward the bonus and $2 toward the �added payout/players packs� for each player. It means adding $3 to all entries.

All B-tiers will support the TX State Championship by donating $2 toward the bonus and $3 toward the �added payout/players pack� for each player. It means adding $5 to all entries.

Can you make all TD�s participate, probably not, but this is THE STATE OF TEXAS, and we do like to do thinks BIG around here. The next question is �Who takes care of the bonus? Well I think that would be the state coordinator�sorry Gary�.or someone who can do it and be consistent about it from year to year. Each TD would send the bonus money to the �coordinator� who then deposits it in the bank. You would need to keep a log for both the PRO and AM. AS an example�..If we were doing this today, the money raised for the BONUS� from B and C tier tournaments up to this date, 8/10/05, would be�.
AM bonus $2248, added payout/players packs $3628. PRO bonus $610, added payout $1015. I have an excel table that shows what I mean if you want it..just PM me.

In the AM added payout/players pack, what is not used for the players pack would be added to the payout of all AM divisions.

I believe these bonus� would give THE CHAMPIONSHIPS the classification of �A-tier�.

I know that not all will want to do this, maybe not many, but it is an idea worth thinking about, because we all play in at least one sanctioned event each year anyways and the events are TEXAS tournaments.


OKAY, blast away. :D:D:D

I think the amount is a little high. I think $2 is just fine.

This way you have at a B-tier $3 to the PDGA and then $2 to the bonus at Texas States.

For a C-tier, you could do the same, or go ahead and make it $3 for a C-tier.

As far as playing a qualifier, if you play one event, you qualify for the bonus payout.

Any added sponsor money would go to ALL players (this should not change the regular payouts)

Now one question.

For the deal the Gimp proposed, if I were to pay him $3 per player in the Am division players, he was going to pay out that in actual cost of plastic. In other words, no profit from the bonus payout from Am's.

Would you still do this? Or maybe use the Am profit to boost up the Pro payout some more. Even though Texas States is run by a club and no one profits, I would have a problem if one person profited from the am (bonus) payouts. (unless this person went out of there way to get me players, in other words did work for my tournament)

Better idea, A tournament collects $2 per player and keeps $1 from each am player (or maybe 80 cents or so) This would be considered sponsorship from Texas States to that tournament. So if you have 100 players and 70 of them were am's, you would pay $130 to Texas states and keep 70 as sponsorship. ($144 to states and $56 to your tournament if you did the 80 cent deal)

Then states pays out the regular $2 per head and writes the $1 (or 80 cents) off as sponsorship for each qualifier.

I really like this idea. States would be sponsoring all qualifiers without having to spend money out of pocket. (like Houston and Waterloo already do)

The $3 and $5 were arbritray figures that I came up with off the top of my head. I used the different names of 'bonus' and 'added payout' with the dollar figure thinking that you would have the players bonus and that you would not have to look to very much sponsorship because it would already be there, paid by the players. Everything above and beyond would be gravy. This lends itself toward the 'traveling' CHAMPIONSHIPS, it allows the TD of the finals to concentrate on the tournament more than busting his or her butt to find the sponsors.

But, I also like your idea of paying back the TD.

Just some more thoughts.

All are sounding like great ideas...Paul send me a copy of that spreadsheet...I'd like to play around with it some. The numbers sound pretty good.

Although the concept of accepting a $3 donation and then kicking back $1 of to the qualifying tournament sounds like funny money in a way, I am seeing the logic of it all. It still makes my head swirl... :D

Bryan - I agree partly with what you say and I think those kinds of conditions could be met.

Don't some other states implement a state or regional fee of some sort? This isn't an unheard-of thing...just that we've never considered it in Texas. And in this case, most players would accept that a portion of their entry fee goes toward a State Championship series fee if it was a qualifier. I think that we ought to set it at you must play in TWO qualifiers to be eligible for the bonus payout. The reason for this is it then provides the motivation for a player to play at multiple events. This is something which might cause a Houstonian to travel to Corpus or San Antonio or Dallas to play in an event they otherwise might not consider.

This whole concept is starting to build some momentum - I like reading/hearing it!

Southern Nationals only requires that you play one event. But then if you don't play an event, you can't play period.

I kinda like what MaceMan is doing with his food drive events.

The finals is comming up in September, if you played 4or was it 5 events, entry to the finals is free. If you didn't play enough events, you can still pay to play the event.

I for one made several food drive events and plan on playing the finals Sept 10th.

I'm not opposed to any of these ideas. However, I still feel that we would be better off by starting at a regional scale, rather than a state scale. Rather than putting all the money towards one big event, you could spread it out over three of four events throughout the year (or however many regions there will be). Cooperation at the regional level will be easier to achieve; scheduling conflicts between regions will not be as annoying if there is a regional focus; and different regions working on their own will produce different ideas that succeed in varying degrees, which will eventually serve as guidance and motivation to other regions.

I'm not saying that regional tourneys should not contribute to the big, revolving state tourney, only that they should focus first on their own big regional tourney.

I'm not opposed to any of these ideas. However, I still feel that we would be better off by starting at a regional scale, rather than a state scale. Rather than putting all the money towards one big event, you could spread it out over three of four events throughout the year (or however many regions there will be). Cooperation at the regional level will be easier to achieve; scheduling conflicts between regions will not be as annoying if there is a regional focus; and different regions working on their own will produce different ideas that succeed in varying degrees, which will eventually serve as guidance and motivation to other regions.

I'm not saying that regional tourneys should not contribute to the big, revolving state tourney, only that they should focus first on their own big regional tourney.



I agree with James with a little bit of a modification. The structure should be put in place so that money feeds into the Regionals, therefore when you pay that extra $2 at a local event you feel you have an easy shot to get it back at that Regional event (still essentially local). The payout on the Regionals should be capped and any money that is over that feeds into the State event.

Finally, the Regional events should feed into the State event directly. Therefore you are building from event to event keeping the moeny local as long as possible to make it easier for local players to have a shot at the bonuses.

Larry, are you writing this up? Just curious.

Here's another twist I had PM'd to Gary as a concept I think works better to support the events we already have out there. Why another event in the state of Texas, when it flies in the face of what you are already trying to accomplish in paring down what you have?

The concept I have presented doesn't require B-tiers to fund the requirements of A-tiers at all. The idea is that each B & C tier in the state is "allocated" to one of the existing SuperTours in Texas. A bonus system like what is proposed is used to collect for a "Regional Bonus" to be paid at the Regional Supertour. Points could be based on any system you want; I had proposed the PDGA system of 1x, 2x and 3x multipliers for A, B & C tier, and factors for MPO vs MPM, MA1 vs MM1, etc. The regional bonus would include all regional B&C tiers, and then also include the results at the regional SuperTour, and would be paid at that event or mailed to those who earned bonuses but did not attend. The regional supertour might allocate a portion of their normal payout to the "bonus" as a matching fund, taking it directly out of their normal payout (if the PDGA allowed), to be paid to only those who earned a regional bonus AND attended the regional SuperTour.

The second half of the concept is the existing SuperTours work together to create a Texas-sized SuperTour bonus, based on the results and attendance at each regional SuperTour. A $2-$5 fund or so could be collected, and used to seed this bonus, and would be paid out at the end of the year at the last SuperTour, and checks mailed to those not in attendance at the end. The TX SuperTours could work together to get sponsors for the entire "Texas Sized SuperTour" that would help fund a matching bonus to this.

The series fees charged at B & C tiers end up getting "matched" by A-tiers, where A-tiers can allocate a portion of their normal payout instead to the bonus payout in order to more benefit those who have supported their region. This would help support the local B & C tier events, and if other players outside their region wanted a piece of the bonus action, then they would have to make a conscious decision to play in a few of some other region's events.

A-tiers then work together in the Texas-sized SuperTour bonus to benny those who attend more SuperTours through an end of the year SuperTour payout. This would help promote both local and national players to play in Texas SuperTours in order to qualify for the texas-sized supertour bonus at the end of the year.

The summit/dinner can be accomplished at the last SuperTour, either Veterans or TX 10 Finals.

I like this approach, because it works within our system to strengthen existing B&C tier events, support and publicize our strong Texas SuperTour events, and does not get into conflicts about rotating an event each year, etc.

What do ya think of this concept?

The idea of feeding regional B-tiers into regional A-tiers, and then having a Texas Sized "Super Tour" makes a whole lot more sense to me. A regional bonus at each TX A-tier and then a TX SuperTour bonus for all the SuperTours, accomplishes both purposes, and supports both those who attend regional events and those who attend SuperTours.

I think you're a smart man! I like it!

Please send my love to the family.

I don't know what the regions exactly are, but every region does not have an existing supertour.

Also, I think the region should retain the flexibility on the level of sanctioning. Yes, most will desire the highest sanctioning, but what if the region has legitimate reasons for only sanctioning as a B or X tier or something?

As you might surmise, I'm not a big fan of top-down control. Only to the extent that is needed for order. So, I always would like to retain flecxbility for each region. What if the region did not require you to attend one of their series in order to be eligible? What if they simply wished to add the money raised and make it available to everyone that attends their event?

I really lean to no particular option or strategy, I would just hate to see a direction imposed that might reduce flexibility and quash potentially productive ideas.

For instance (just hypothetical & open to interpretation)

ZBOAZ region
VPO region
TX STATES region
WACO region
AUSTIN region (could be ProDoubs, Outlaw, LOSO, etc.)
(note: CH - I didn't include TX10s, only in the thinking that you had a set of qualifiers and a system that feeds to your championship. open to inclusion of TX10s as well)

Events have all the autonomy they want regarding what level of sanctioning they wish. The SC would just assign their event to a region if it was PDGA sanctioned, with the hope that the no. of events and total sum of the event multipliers (1X for C, 2X for B, 3X for A) would stay relatively balanced between all regions. (I have fooled with the assignment of events into regions that would work in this concept)

I think the existing proposal IS top-down "control", in that only specific events are part of the existing proposal. This system in fact is not, with all PDGA sanctioned events becoming a part just by sanctioning in the state of Texas. The idea is to make attendance at B & C tiers worth something more - a regional bonus and perhaps even preferential entry into the regional SuperTour (if they get full easily, perhaps top qualifiers get preferential entry, etc. etc.) It does not make B&C tiers "fund" the payment requirements of SuperTours either. It would require the PDGA to allow a portion of added cash reqmts of A-tiers to be used as part of a "matching" regional bonus.

Specialized "Texas-sized" merchandise could be sold and used to partially or fully fund either concept, perhaps without requiring the collection of additional fees on the backs of players at each event.

This is the kind of system that could be adopted throughout the PDGA and used to shore up and help all levels of events. Especially if you adopted a system where you could be bumped from a SuperTour entry up to a week in advance if someone on a waiting list had more regional points than you!

---
Hey hero! How's daddy-hood?!? Come and stay with us at TX States and see what happens when they grow up! ;)

James is right, as the regions are running things differently this year. In 2005, you have:
CanadaTex :) = Big Arms (C)
DFW = The Big Show (A) and VPO (A/B)
CenTex = Waco (NT/B), LOSO (B) and TX10 (A/B)
SE TX = States (A/B)
SouTex = Coastal Clash (B) or Beeville?

True EastTex is missing. (PPO?)

Should each region pick their leading event?

I like the idea of requiring attendance in a region's qualifier to be eligible. Gets folks into travelling a little more (Gimp's GCCS at Live Oak has drawn out 15-20 Houstonians the last couple of years--and considering the reputation that's a lot).

Can I help in any way? Like implement these ideas?

:eek: :eek: :eek: :D

I need to study this again but my initial response was Ka-Ching! Very nice idea Nez!

I think this should be written up and promoted state wide to get buy in.

:D:eek: :eek: :eek:

Or we could go with what I already started. Remember the guy who took on States as it was maybe dying (I don�t know Larry were you bluffing?) and started something like this already and invited everyone along with no benefit to himself. I can�t see not having a major event in Houston every year but I would be more than willing to ship bonus money off somewhere else for a points championship event or something. Of course, I am talking about sending money off from 10 plus events� Are there any other TD�s �on board� for this that run more than two or three????

No respect... (http://movies.yahoo.com/shop?d=hc&amp;id=1800030884&amp;cf=pg&amp;photoid=151384&amp;intl= us)

Gimp, I think we are talking again about what we could possibly do next year. What you are trying to do is almost the same thing. You came up with your idea on your own, we are bouncing it around to make it better possibly.

I give you credit are getting this talk started. But I am afraid that what you are doing this year may be the only thing that happens.

Gimp, I think we are talking again about what we could possibly do next year. What you are trying to do is almost the same thing. You came up with your idea on your own, we are bouncing it around to make it better possibly.

I give you credit are getting this talk started. But I am afraid that what you are doing this year may be the only thing that happens.



what does that mean? honestly..
it is obvious Houston is the freshman of the discgolf clique

�What you are trying to do��

No trying to it, it is happening.

�You came up with your idea on your own, we are bouncing it around to make it better possibly.�

No, these are not ideas to make it better; these are different ideas completely ignoring what is happening. I�ll go back to looking for jobs and let ya�ll get back to �talking� again� It is just amazing to me that all this talk can go on without mention of what is actually happening.

Where is Gary? This thread badly needs his input and guidance.

he's telling the teacher :D

Gimp, what tournament have already jumped on board?

I know we talked, I was just not ready to make the commentment this year.

Please don't take offence to anything posted on this thread. Everyone has ideas on how to go about to do this and even if we should try to do this.

This has been bounced around before and no one did anything about it.

We need input from Maceman, Vinnie, Waterloo, Chris, Gary, and all of the other Texas <font color="red"> TD's (is what this was suppose to day) </font>

Right now I only see 2 or 3 TD's doing any talking.

all while gimp is moving

talk is cheap

I'm listening in. Still trying to understand it all and the ramifications. Next year is an open book for LOSO. We want to be a part of the future of disc golf and I believe we have the courses (soon 58 holes, not counting UC's 18) and the support of the city of Live Oak to be a major factor/contributor to a championship tour of some sort. Maybe a long conference call is in order.

I have one commitment from a large event but it won't be until next series and the TD is not sure he will be TDing it 100% so that will be announced when it is more firm. You talked to me and another TD of several events, but no commitments. I am certainly not hard selling it, it is just more of an option.

I have someone in Dallas who is willing to run an event but the details have not been worked out. I would much prefer to have a current event jump aboard but Dallas area golfers need another place to qualify for the added payout if they want to besides Pecan Park. Maybe MaceMan will do something small later in the year since he has been a States supporter for years. Like I told you on the phone I would be HONORED to have your event come on board.

Are there any other TD�s �on board� for this that run more than two or three????



Who me? :D

I have already put my hat in the ring for whatever state wide tour Gary decides on. I just have to work out which of my 15 or so events will be involved.

As I have said to several people privately and on here I support the idea of a state wide series/tour with a roaming "Championship" ending event.

As far as the bonus money side of things I am still thinking about different options that could work the best and yet be easy to manage. Many ideas have been suggested but it is the day to day managing of the stats and money that makes it hard. Gary should not have to bare all the work on this. I am sure there is an easy way to unite the states major events while drawing support from a local level.

Gary must be off in the Bahama's on my private jet I lent him the other day. :eek:

Thanks
Chris

Live Oak ,Corpus ,Beeville ,Ingelside ,Victoria ,Sounds like a region to me. :o

Are there any other TD�s �on board� for this that run more than two or three????



Who me? :D

I have already put my hat in the ring for whatever state wide tour Gary decides on. I just have to work out which of my 15 or so events will be involved.

As I have said to several people privately and on here I support the idea of a state wide series/tour with a roaming "Championship" ending event.

As far as the bonus money side of things I am still thinking about different options that could work the best and yet be easy to manage. Many ideas have been suggested but it is the day to day managing of the stats and money that makes it hard. Gary should not have to bare all the work on this. I am sure there is an easy way to unite the states major events while drawing support from a local level.

Gary must be off in the Bahama's on my private jet I lent him the other day. :eek:

Thanks
Chris



Sure, Gary could do it, or you could let the person who volunteered take care of it... either way, back to talking...

I guess I'm not seeing fully understanding what is going on here. This thread started as a way to improve scheduling, both by attending to regional needs and to eliminate conflict for important tourneys.

Meanwhile, John moves along with his idea. Fine, I appreciate his initiative. I don't see it as necessarily conflicting with anything since as far as I know, nothing has been decided.

However, it seems to me that Gary, hopefully in consultation with Texas TDs, must provide some concrete ideas for feedback, or give his final decision on a framework that he has apparently been thinking about for awhile. Once the framework has been decided upon and laid out, then the hard work begins (in my estimation at least). The hard work will probably include accurately reading personalities, engendering cooperation when possible, accepting the fact that some people might end up angry and dissatisfied, and probably massaging some egos. Best of Luck to Gary. I am confident that he will lead the Texas tourney scene in a more focused direction.

Thanks for your vote of confidence James, though I'm not feeling too confident about it myself.

Get busy at work for a couple of days and find 41 messages on the thread. What's going on ?

Regions: There were 8 and they are explained on one of these threads. DFW (and north between and around I-35 and US 75), SA/Ausin, Houston, East (East of US 75/I-45 and North of I-10), South (South of I-10 and East of I-35), West (West of I-35 and South of I-20), North (West of I-35 and North of I-20), Central (Inside of I-35, I-45, and I-10). The restrictions proposed were within the region and neighboring regions.

I.E.
Houston would block (Houston,) Central, East, and South.
Athens would block (East,) Central, DFW, Houston, and South.
Lubbock would block (North,) Central, DFW, West.

I have no good thoughts about a traveling supersized event right now.

I would propose a points championship tied to the larger B-Tiers with prizes awarded at a small scale Texas only banquet and charity event sometime in December. Must be present to win, forfeits are donated to the charity. The hosting club determines the Charity and menu. Entry fees pay for the food. Little to no payout (except for the points champions).

It might not be the most popular idea, but if you can find a good time and place to put a large A-Tier sized event in the schedule that does not step on a nearby event, please point it out to me so I can use it. And that's if it stays in one place. Now figure out how to move it around the major courses in Texas without being the week after or before another large event. Oh, and it kinda needs to happen towards the end of the year.

I'm not trying to be negative here, just realistic. Unless we have less than 80 events it will be hard to shoehorn it in.

but if you can find a good time and place to put a large A-Tier sized event in the schedule that does not step on a nearby event, please point it out to me so I can use it. And that's if it stays in one place. Now figure out how to move it around the major courses in Texas without being the week after or before another large event. Oh, and it kinda needs to happen towards the end of the year.





Gary,

Why does the TEXAS STATE CHAMPIONSHIPS have to move form one date to another. Why can't it stay where it is and move from place to place. On either side of STATES now are two C-tier events. One in Crowley and one in Live Oak. The are plenty of other courses around the DFW metroplex to handle STATES and I am sure that Live Oak can handle two tournaments or the C-tier could be moved. You are only looking at this maybe once every 3-5 years anyways.

Now I don't mean to step on any toes, so don't anybody go getting their tail feathers ruffled.

I see only the major cities hosting TX STATES, ie: Dallas/Ft Worth, Houston, Austin/Round Rock, Live Oak/San Antonio, Lubbock/ Abilene and I think everybody forgets about Circle R in Wimberly...sorry John, Shannon , Alex and Amelia, ya'll just got thrown into the pot. Even though Lubbock and Abilene only have 1 major permanent course, temporary courses can be set-up.

Just my thought on the time and place of STATES.

I don't recall speaking of rotating the dates of a final tournament, It would have to stay on the same date. If it was added as a new event, it would be much less disruptive than swapping it in and out, but that puts a lot more work onthe hosting club to raise funds to qualify for 2 A-Tiers in the same year. Plus if it's an A-Tier we want, the PDGA has control of the schedule, not TX.

But other things are already happening to the schedule.

TX States has already requested to move from their current date which is the week after the USDGC and the week before the Oklahoma Open. Being the week after the USDGC makes it very difficult to draw touring pros into the event.

There are other concerns that would make the spring date that has been requested a good date.

LOSO has also requested to move, and may have to change it's name to the Live Oak Spring Open. There will be a new large Am event on the VPO Pro weekend in the future. This is also in preparation for more growth of that event.

Several large events have changed their dates, and several are still up in the air. Victoria is Clear, but the PGM and TWC are looking for good dates. There are several other long standing outlying events that I would like to see on weeeknds clear from other large events.

Gary, I think I am now realizing why I stepped down and let you take over :D

I had not seen anything in concrete on the exact regions. Can we define the regions by the important disc golf cities (ie. have tourneys and players), rather than by strict geographical boundaries?

In other words, using your regions, they could be defined as follows (although I can only think of seven):

DFW (includes all the metroplex cities)
Austin/San Antonio/RR (includes Wimberly and Dripping Springs)
Houston (includes Hitchcock, Conroe, Woodlands, etc)
Waco/Temple
Corpus/Victoria
Amarillo/Lubbock/Abilene
Beaumont/Nacogdoches/Athens/Tyler

Furthermore, since I am full of suggestions (or something else), how about considering dividing east Texas between Houston and DFW. Hear me out. Athens and Tyler could be in DFW and Beaumont and Nacogdoches could be in Houston. They would still get some protection for their big events, but you could maybe relax the rules and allow them to do what they please on the non-big weekends within their region.

Just to be fair to the Cities that support disc golf in my area, please do not refer to San Antonio, but to Live Oak, or Live Oak/Universal City in future posts regarding regions. San Antonio does not support disc golf. So the region of Austin/Live Oak/UC/RR/Wimberly/Dripping Springs/Lago Vista/Georgetown?/Gonzales? looks good to me. :D Or we'd be glad to hook up with our friendly neighbors on the beach.

A couple comments:

- why are we trying to shoe-horn another championship event on top of what we already have? No club or TD realistically would want that burden, having tried it in 2002 with Worlds/TX States. Especially since it would not really benefit the local club at all.

- using a PDGA based points system, the PDGA could track points for us by simple SQL queries to the database.

- I don't like the idea of forfeiting bonuses, etc. for not attending the championship. This only supports the ending event, and would/should not work in a PDGA based system vs a private system. It was one of the main reasons why the former Millenium-MaceMan skins cooperation fell apart.

- Do what you like with regions. Just understand that if you don't have balance with total monies generated by each region to a bonus system then it would not be fair to those regions shorted. If monies collected at B & C tiers are at different levels, then this becomes even more difficult

**** civic pride. :D

I am assuming that RR stands for Red Rock. Right? :p

Roger Right'o!

Responses:

- I agree with Nez that another large event is not the best answer.

- The PDGA points system is biased toward number of participants and does not give each event equal weight. If the purpose is to give players incentives to attend the events, they should not be able to choose the event based on potential points. In other words, you will be hurt just as much by missing the smaller events as the larger ones. But in my plan, only the larger events count toward the overall series.

- The forfeiture would only happen when the player in question made no attempt to attend or work out an alternative method of collecting. The same thing would happen at any bonus series. If you don't show up for the final, you can't collect any of the bonus. We could always bounce it down to the next place, but then what happens to the trophy ?

-The regions were based on draw potential before the Corpus area came back to life. They were not drawn with the idea of garnering funds, but on travel potential. The idea of gathering funds had not been mentioned when the regions were laid out.

- No disrespect meant to Live Oak, but you are as much a part of San Antonio as I am a part of DFW. Geographic boundaries are required for simplicity. With geographic boundaries, You can look at a map and see which region you fall into.

Just have to be careful Gary, City Officials read this board too. Once we inadvertently reported a Live Oak Ice Bowl as San Antonio for the PDGA magazine, and I had to formally apologize to city officials for the oversight. My back side still hurts from that one!

Yesterday at our regular meeting with the Parks & Rec. Dept., I mentioned this thread about possibly revamping the schedule for Texas Disc Golf. The head people at Amarillo City Hall are very much in favor of a big-time tournament here. We talked about the need for more quality courses in this area, and also the possibility of using the whole park for a large event. I was pleasantly surprised with their reaction. They assured me that Disc Golf is on their minds during their long-range planning meetings. More courses in town soon, and using 75% of Thompson Park for BIG-TIME event is not out of the question. Once a person gets a look at the size of this park, and the features that are included, it's easy to see the potential for a great event.

The downside is time. We're looking at maybe 1 or 2 years down the road to get the courses in and touched up. I believe our Top of Texas Open is going to continue to grow during this time, so once we get the facility set up, we are in the position to take this event to the next level (A-Tier or ??). It would be really disappointing to see our event have to take a PDGA sanctioning backseat to a geographic neighbor, based on distance to other Metro areas. I realize how far Amarillo is from the rest of Texas (I have done LOTS of driving to other towns for Disc Golf events), I just want to make sure we get a fair shake in the scheduling concerns for Texas Disc Golf.

I'd like to comment re: Live Oak/SA

Firstly, Live Oak/Universal City is a must for any DG trip in that area. Live Oak takes very good care of their course and should be very proud of it. I regret not making LOSO this year, especially since my wife wanted to defend her Rec women's title from last year :). We both appreciate Live Oak's contributions to the sport on a player and city level.

That being said, suburbs are just that. Suburbs. Any smaller city in the vicinity of a very large city is going to be considered a suburb and grouped in with that large city when referring to a region. This type of generalization does not remove the uniqueness of that smaller city, only gives more people an idea of the region being discussed. Most people know where San Antonio is. Fewer can point to Live Oak on a map. When considering travel arrangements, were I to buy a plane ticket to come play Live Oak Summer Open, would I fly to Live Oak/Universal City? Or would I fly to San Antonio? :D

DFW has (I believe) more courses than any other region in Texas. Want to guess how many of those courses are in Dallas or Ft. Worth? I can think of one in Dallas and none in Fort Worth. There will be a new championship-quality course in Dallas very soon, and Z-Boaz is very close to the Ft. Worth / Benbrook border so it could be in either; I'm not sure. Suffice it to say that DFW disc golf's best courses are in suburbs like Garland, Arlington, Lewisville, Carrollton, Benbrook, etc. But, it is still DFW.

I think you get my point. While San Antonio might not support DG like the wonderful city of Live Oak does, they are still an important part of the region, not to mention the most recognizeable one (for most people).

all while gimp is moving

talk is cheap


oh, and this notion is great, but ever heard of the phrase "measure twice, cut once?" There is nothing wrong with trying to hash out details and organize support before jumping in head first.

All good points, can I get your number when the city manager comes calling? ;) Live Oak does not consider itself a suburb of San Antonio by the way. I live in a suburb of San Antonio, it is within the city limits but incorporated, Live Oak is outside the city limits of SA. Don't fret, just want to make sure we continue to get the excellent support from the city. You know politicians, they love to be recognized, and this city in particular hates to be grouped with SA. If this goes public and is published somewhere, and advertised statewide, etc., San Antonio should not be listed until they can say they have a playable 18 in place. They do not. D and FW both have courses, so it fair to group them in. Besides, I would venture to say most disc golfers know where Live Oak is by now. At least 162 of them do :D

perhaps it's a difference in regional culture. I'm not sure that I understand the concept of being within the limits of one city and not being part of that city. All of the "suburbs" I mentioned for DFW are not within the city limits of either D or FW and are wholly seperate, yet adjoining. Anyhow, I digress. Perhaps we can refer to your region as LOSDA (Live Oak and Surrounding Disc golf Areas) :D. I do understand the desire to be recognized individually, and of all the courses I've played and all the DG tournaments I've traveled to, Live Oak is very near the top of the list when it comes to city support and a strong player base. They seem to be very dedicated to the sport. Maybe they should try and influence San Antonio to get some baskets in the ground :)

I completely agree with Brian. San Antonio does not have one course, Live Oak does and Live Oak deserves the credit. Its embarrasing to live so close to a large city like San Antonio and them not have a disc golf course. Its all about Live Oak and Universal City!!!

SA has one course in the works at Old Pearsall Park in deep south San Antonio, in an old quarry (read... no trees). It's a bone they are throwing at us to get us to leave them alone. But the view from the top of the quarry cliff is fantastic! But to give you an idea of how large the SA area is, it is close to 60 miles from Live Oak, and 30 miles from my house and I live in the city center.

I never even knew that they had a course in SA and I grew up here. We moved to the wonderful city of Live Oak to be closer to the course, park and to live in a close community.

Give them the credit they deserve for supporting disc golf the way they do. What other city can you say the city manager and park supervisor play disc golf?

Wow! I was pretty flattered to see Abilene mentioned twice as a major disc golf site. Now, I know that was probably more a reference to the size of Abilene. But, seeing as we have not had a santioned event here in over 5 years, I was surprised that folks even remembered we had a course!! hehe

We hope to have a sanctioned event here next summer, (hopefully in the same date slot that the Abilene Wild Hair was in) and there is talk of building a second course across the creek from the exsisting one. I want Abilene to get back on the disc golf map, and am excited about the future possibilities for Texas disc golf. There is a new group of regular disc golfers here now, and most dont even know what sanctioned events are, much less what the PDGA is. But Im trying to help raise awarness of the PDGA and what it doing for disc golf...especially in Texas.

I am still relativly new to the sport (2+ years) and have not even run an event yet. So I dont have a frame of reference for most of whats being discussed here. But, I like what I read and hope to make Abilene apart of it.

Regions, there are basicly 4

Houstion (South East Texas) This would include Nac and Port Arthor.

DFW, this would include Tyler/Athens/Longview areas too.

Austin/Live Oak :D- This would include Corpus, Victoria, and others.

West Texas, including Lubbock, Big Springs, and the Pan Handle.

The only question/problem I have is where to put Waco. It pulls equally from Austin and DFW

I know, we can split it between the Brazos :D South Central Texas gets Cameron and Woodway, and then North Texas gets The Beast.

Thanks Bryan!!

Regions, there are basicly 4

Houstion (South East Texas) This would include Nac and Port Arthor.

DFW, this would include Tyler/Athens/Longview areas too.

Austin/Live Oak :D- This would include Corpus, Victoria, and others.

West Texas, including Lubbock, Big Springs, and the Pan Handle.

The only question/problem I have is where to put Waco. It pulls equally from Austin and DFW

I know, we can split it between the Brazos :D South Central Texas gets Cameron and Woodway, and then North Texas gets The Beast.

I Think If You put waco in the Austin region With Round Rock ,Georgetown ,Moodys ,Wimberly Thats a pretty strong Region.Then Live Oak ,Corpus ,Gonzales,Victoria,Beeville,Ingelside that works out pretty well also.

The question on what courses to put in what regions is really where does that course pull from.

Waco is a good question because it pulls heavily from DFW as well as Austin.

Abiline has been lumped into West Texas, but I really think It would be considered North Texas. Same as Whichita Falls.

how many Dallas Guys travel to tournaments in Houston or Auustin.

How many Houston guys travel to Austin or DFW

How many Austin guys travel to Houston or DFW.

And who travels to West texas :D

how many Dallas Guys travel to tournaments in Houston or Auustin

I can answer that one. NOT MANY


How many Austin guys travel to Houston or DFW.

more than come down here for sure

how many Dallas Guys travel to tournaments in Houston or Auustin.




I've been to Houston before, but where is Auustin? Is Auustin a suburb of Vacuum? :D

Just messing with ya BJ.

Auustin suucks, but Austin ROCKS!!! :D

EXCUUUUUUSSSEEE MMMMEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (in my best Steve Martin impresion)

"Auustin" was a typo, OK :D

My laptop likes to type in extra letters all the time. The keyboard is very sensitive. So don't hurt it's feelings.

Bump

Yes Gary, where do we stand on scheduling structure next year? Have the ideas just died on the vine?

Not directed at Gary, but at others. Please, do not confuse the idea of creating some big state tournament with the opportunity to improve our scheduling. The two are completely distinct ideas.

As always, the PDGA has to schedule the NTs, Majors, and A-Tiers first. Then I can start looking at what I have left.

I have been talking to the PDGA scheduling folks, and no matter what things are going to be shaken up in the first part of the year. This will give me some opportunity to put the smaller events up against each other and give the larger events some protection. We need to see what we are getting from the PDGA before we can do anything solid.

Gary,
Is THIS SCHEDULE (http://lsdga.com/sched/index.php) for 2006 final?

Probably not. It's missing Gimp's events.

A-Tiers and most of the B-Tiers are set, a lot is still in flux. TWC is moving from Easter, don't know where it is going yet. Any volunteers to move from Mar-Apr-May to the fall ?

We are no longer able to stack B-Tiers in the three big cities. The new mileage restrictions prevent simultaneous events in DFW/Austin/Houston. The unstacking is causing quite a bit of congestion.

Thanks to the multi-tuournament TDs for lightening the load next year. I don't think they did it for me, but it helps.

The Texas 10 dropped 3 events.
Brian Mace is planning to drop about 3 events.
Tom Lowry is cutting his schedule in half and doing 2-day C-Tiers.
Waco is moving back to a single weekend.

I haven't gotten a schedule from Gimp yet.
Mace should have his to me this week.

What are the new mileage restrictions?

So if Dallas has a B tier going, can we have a C-tier at the same time?

thanks Gary right where I wanted my tourney to be.

B-B = 250 miles
B-C = 100 miles
C-C = 50 miles

It does leave the following combinations
DFW/Live Oak-Victoria
Nacogdoches/Austin-Corpus Christi
Athens/Live Oak-Abilene
Houston/Abilene-Lubbock-Wichita Falls
Amarillo/Anywhere but Lubbock-Wichita Falls
Corpus Christi/Waco

thanks Gary right where I wanted my tourney to be.



I wish everyone was as happy when they got what they asked for. :D

I'm very happy, thanks Gary for getting LOSO out of the oppressive summer heat. Now if you can just put Himing's bubble over Live Oak in May I'll be really happy!

Himing's May bubble for Live Oak involves cold, wind, and rain. Are you sure you want that?

Cold and Wind good, we have enough water here I've been told :D

I haven't gotten a schedule from Gimp yet.



Not to speak for Gimp, but the current LSS season has 2 dates for January (both Houston - MacGregor and Bass) and 1 for February (Port Arthur). These were the last two years on the 1st and 2nd January weekends (which would be the 7th and 14th) and the 2nd weekend(?) of February (the 11th). And they'll be C-tiers.

Again, let Gimp confirm this. I have no idea about the next LSS season starting in August.

So, I take it that the idea of breaking the state into regions, staggering the B-tier dates and encouraging each region to have a biggie is not gonna happen?

It's not impossible, but the first step is to separate the B-Tiers. The new mileage restrictions is a start on this.

I have been trying to keep bordering areas from having events back to back. Some TDs are locked into certain weekends or months, and the flexibility isn't always there.

I'm working toward it, but the TDs are the ones that have to go along.

Gary, you have an email.

Can't get to email from here. How about a PM ?