At the moment I throw exlusively DX plastic, as I've always preferred the feel of the discs, but I'm getting sick of replacing them all the time.
So I'm planning on switching to Champ/Z plastic as and when a DX disc wears out. I know the harder plastics tend to be more overstable, so I thought I might just buy everything a couple of grams lighter than I usually throw.

Is it worth doing this, or should I just slightly relearn all my discs as I replace them?
Or even buy slightly different discs? For example I could replace my DX Beast (my #1 driver) with a Champ Orc, and they'd be very similar?

Replace them all but keep some DX around for those rainy days. I am a firm beleiver in having Z or Champion plastic.

The reason is that they are not constanly changing or breaking in. I have a gummy champ beast that I have been throwing for almost three years now and it still flys the same.
Every time I try a DX or Pro or X or anything other than Z or champion I like it until it hits a tree. We have lot of those here. :DAfter the tree hit I have to start adjusting my throws to compensate for the change in the disc. I don't know about you, but my talents are limited and having to change my throw to fit the disc just doesn't work for me. I need a disc that will fly next year like it did today.
IMO.

I would keep you putters and midranges in DX. As they wear much better then drivers. As for your drivers it is a toss up becuase in some of the recent molds the DX version has been more overstable then the Champion version. I have a 169 DX Beast that is much more overstable then my 172 Champ Beast. Very strange, I would say try the Champion Orc or Pro Starfire and just learn them, shouldn't take more then a couple of sessions in a field, the feel in your hand should be very similar, and keep you broken in DXs for turnovers. Should be a very smooth and game improving transition.
Good Luck, I hope this helps.
Cheers,
Matt

I've heard quite a few people say the Champ Beast is more understable than the DX. Odd...

Seems like good advice wrt the mids, I can't remember the last time I had to replace one for wear as opposed to losing it.

I'm thinking of doing this:

Current (All DX) : Replacement
174 Banshee : None - only for stupid headwinds
172 Firebird : 172 Champ Firebird
172 Teebird : 172 Z-XS - used to throw these before
172 Beast : 172 Champ Orc
172 Beast (beat) : None - turnovers
172 Valk : None - extreme turnovers
164 Valk (beat - roller disc) : None

So I'd only actually have to buy 3 more discs :)

If you wanted a replacement for your Valks, you could get a Sidewinder.

I was resistant to changing to CE or Z plastic. I had so much of the other stuff! However they are more predicatble flyers overall. I haven't had to replace a driver in a couple of years. There is more cost up front, but they sure do last a long time.

I found I had to grip the premium plastic tighter than the DX in the beginning. It didn't take long to get used to the slicker plastic.

Definitely... for your extreme turnovers and rollers, the Champion Sidewinder will fly very very close to your beaten dx Valks and probably even carry more on the extreme turnover and roll farther, so they might end up not only being replacements, but upgrades on the exact shot you carry them for...

Not sure we actually have Sindewinders this side of the pond yet, but I'll look into them, cheers.

I've heard quite a few people say the Champ Beast is more understable than the DX. Odd...

Seems like good advice wrt the mids, I can't remember the last time I had to replace one for wear as opposed to losing it.

I'm thinking of doing this:

Current (All DX) : Replacement
174 Banshee : None - only for stupid headwinds
172 Firebird : 172 Champ Firebird
172 Teebird : 172 Z-XS - used to throw these before
172 Beast : 172 Champ Orc
172 Beast (beat) : None - turnovers
172 Valk : None - extreme turnovers
164 Valk (beat - roller disc) : None

So I'd only actually have to buy 3 more discs :)



Here is a thought for you. I typically used a Champion Beast Driver. As my throws have improved, I've found that with any wind at all these become just a little too understable (even up to 174 grams). What I've done is gone over to Champion Orcs. The 170 to 174 gram versions are fairly wind resistant in my hands, the 166-169 versions are my primary drivers and work well even in moderate winds, the 163-165 versions are great down wind drivers and fly pretty much like my 168-171 Champion Beasts used to.


There is one thing, I threw Z-XS for a long time, they fly a lot like Champion Beasts do, only not as long for me (keep in mind that I've never done a real comparison). This may be a truer comparison to what you would be getting with a Champion Beast, and may give you some comparison as to the Champion and DX Beasts.

Also, I've always heard that the Champion Plastic was more overstable than the DX. I know that for Eagles and Firebirds that is true for me. It does seem strange that some would find the Champ Beast to be less stable than the DX but I have no experience. Be aware though, you may find that the Champion Orc is a lot more overstable than your DX Beast if those people are incorrect. Just a thought.

My personal feelings are that the Orc is incredibly versitile and if you have the arm speed to get it to fly straight, you may find that you can cut down the number of disc types in your bag. However, it took me a while to make that adjustment from the Beast.

Maybe I got a strange one, but my Sidewinder is far more overstable than even a comparable-weight Champion Valk, much less a DX Valk. In fact, my Sidewinder is more overstable than my Champion Orc.

What weight is it?
Somewhere, I believe I read that the reliable weights were the high 160s and low 170s, like 168-172 maybe or something around that and that higher and lower weight extremes were either way more understable or way more overstable...
This fits, as I have a 175 that is far less stable than my 170, which from Innovas ratings and other ones I've thrown, seems to throw just like a Sidewinder should...

It's a purple 159 SW ...all my drivers are in the 150-160 range.

Bruce, Check out a Z-Wildcat instead of the XS. It'll fly like a tee-bird. DX beasts will be the hardest to replace. IMO there is no champ disc that will go as far. I normaly carry 3 and rotate throwing them, this keeps me from having to replace them as often.

It's a purple 159 SW ...all my drivers are in the 150-160 range.



Thats probably why it's so overstable, I checked for you, and Dave did say that the high 160s and low 170s are the ones that are like they are supposed to be and that some extremely low weights came out overstable (like your 159) and some high weights (like my 175 max weight) came out quite understable...

See, now that's my worry. I'm going through DX Beasts like they're made of china, as I use them all the time, but a significant part of my game is reaching greens that others can't. I don't want to lose the distance.

Everyone raves about the Champ Orc, is it as long as a DX Beast or not?

See, now that's my worry. I'm going through DX Beasts like they're made of china, as I use them all the time, but a significant part of my game is reaching greens that others can't. I don't want to lose the distance.

Everyone raves about the Champ Orc, is it as long as a DX Beast or not?



Try a Pro Beast or Pro Starfire. The mold is similiar to the DX Beast but the distance you get with them is incredible!

I just pulled my Orcs from the bag and replaced with Pro Starfires.

PT Woods
# 20431

My feeling on the Pro plastic is that it wears just as quick, if not quicker, than the DX. It was certainly true for the first run Pro Teebird I used to throw.

Is there a different Pro plastic that is more rugged?

See, now that's my worry. I'm going through DX Beasts like they're made of china, as I use them all the time, but a significant part of my game is reaching greens that others can't. I don't want to lose the distance.

Everyone raves about the Champ Orc, is it as long as a DX Beast or not?



Yes longer.

I only use them for Distance Competitions now instead of the DX Beast. For me they are about 5% longer and hold up better in the wind. <font color="red"> This is about DX Orcs, Champion Orcs are just slightly shorter then DX Beasts for me, no more then 5 ft DX Beast = 440ft, DX Orc = 450ft, Champ Beast = 425ft, Champ Orc 435ft (these are my best throws, the champ orc was wind aided, and the DX Beast and DX Orc were against the wind </font> Same comparison for the Champ Orc vs the Champ Beast. DX just beats up too easily for me. For golf I use all Champion/Z plastic. And for long drives in golf I use the champion Orc.

I do not use pro plastic at all. It is too rubbery in my hands. Plus once you hit a tree it flips over really easy. I do throw the Super Roc, but that has a small amount of champion plastic in the mix. According to Dave D. the first run DX Orcs were made to be more grippy, and they feel just like Pro plastic except for the rim, the rim still has the feel of the old DX. Subsequential runs of the DX Orc are going back to regular old DX. I hope this helps.

It sounds like your DX beast throws are very similar to mine distance-wise, so that's extremely useful!

Do you use the same weight Champ Orc as you do DX Beast? Same release angle or more/less hyzer? How does the flight differ?

I try not to do anything different with my throws, I let the disc do all the work. My release tends to be very flat, and straight at my target. If I have a disc that likes to flip, such as a Beast or a Roc, I release with hyzer and let it flip flat. But with the Orc (both DX and Champion plastic) I release perfectly flat, or as consistently flat as an Am can get it.

Every disc I have with exception to a Leopard Roller (172g) is Max Weight.

My feeling on the Pro plastic is that it wears just as quick, if not quicker, than the DX. It was certainly true for the first run Pro Teebird I used to throw.

Is there a different Pro plastic that is more rugged?



They've added more champ to the blend. Those first t-birds were very bad. The new beasts/orcs will wear a little more slowly. Not a bad choice.

Champion TeeBirds!! I've found that the brand new dx TeeBirds are almost exactly the same as the same mold in champion plastic. Great for straight shots to hyzer shots under 400 (but they can glide 5-600, depending). very predictable. The new Pro TeeBirds really lick the sack tho. you don't even need to hit a tree, just think about hitting a tree and the disc tacos itself.

Champion TeeBirds!! I've found that the brand new dx TeeBirds are almost exactly the same as the same mold in champion plastic. Great for straight shots to hyzer shots under 400 (but they can glide 5-600, depending). very predictable. The new Pro TeeBirds really lick the sack tho. you don't even need to hit a tree, just think about hitting a tree and the disc tacos itself.



Teebirds are definately the way to go for anything under 400, I use mine for shots between 350-400ft depending on wind. I carry two, one to slightly turn and fade straight, and another new to fade left. I found that my brand new DX Teebird was the same as a well tuned champ teebird. Just don't hit a tree or you will have a Valkrie instead.

But I would not consider my Teebirds long distance drivers, that is why I did not bring them up.

I have found Champ Teebirds to be nothing like DX.

Champ=overstable

DX= Dead Straight (That is until 2 or 3 tree shots)

The Champ Teebirds I have thrown are even much more stable than my CE T.

Why can't innova make a good, durable DX plastic like Gateway's S plastic? S plastic is as durable as Pro plastic IMO. The DX Teebird is my favorite driver brand new. I just wish they would last longer before turning into rollers.

I've found that the Pro Teebird-L is much more durable than the Pro Teebird, if that helps any. I've hit several trees and haven't seen the instant taco like I did with those regular Teebirds.

However, if you want to avoid the Proline plastic, the QJLS is a pretty good replacement for a DX Teebird if you throw hyzer flips, IMO. It might be a bit more understable through the high speed protion (similar to a seasoned DX Teebird) but has the fade of a newer DX Teebird. It may be a good complement to a Champion Teebird since carrying multiple versions of a mold in different stages of wear is difficult to do when using high end plastic.

Well, last weekend I made the first step in switching over to Champ.
The disc seller only had a few disc with him but I bought a 175g Champ Firebird to replace my broken 172g DX one.
Man but I can't throw that sucker! There was very little wind, so I wouldn't normally have been throwing it anywho, but every time I did, it either came out early and dived left real fast, or I grip-locked it slightly and sent it off right, probably by way of over-compensation for the early releases...

Gonna take me a while to make the adjustment I think, I'll spend some time on the practice field this weekend.

On the plus side, I tried out someone elses 175g Champ Orc, throwing it on a completely open hole. Put it 30' right of the DX Beast I'd just thrown, same length, so there should be some mileage in making that swap.

'Candy' definitely has a different feel and some adjustments are needed when 'switching'...but imagine the confidence of (basically) knowing that your freshly tacoed candy disc will not surprise you on your next tourney throw! ...as opposed to watching your tacoed DXer turnover and NOT come back...maybe even rolling or wormburning.

IMHO, stick with DX for mids and putters. The tactile tradeoff here is not worth it for those touch shots.

Actually, I also picked up a Z-Wasp, which fitted right into my bag with no problems whatsoever. It's perfect for my mid hyzer bombs, and I found it great for throwing through the woods, assuming the shot needed a left fade at the end!

I'm looking forward to having a settled 'candy' bag by the time the Euros come round in July, with my throws fully adjusted.

You're right though, I'll keep my Spider, Roc, Element and putters in the plastics I have now.
Loving the Element, same hole, parked it 6 times, soooo predictable :D

Not sure if its been mentioned yet, but you have to keep in mind that on contact with trees, candy discs are likely to kick/skip off the tree and fly in a different direction, whereas matted discs ("S", DX and D) take the hit and drop. In a tourney, it sucks to destroy a disc, but at least you are in the fairway still...its more expensive this way, but you will get lower scores...as with everything, its a tradeoff!

or play with dx and not play tournaments..no brainer, and you will have the cash to buy more disc. hee hee hee throw hyzer..

Hey Bruce, I have been throwing that sidewinder for my turnover shots, like hole #7 as Essex over the water. Perfect for that, flips over and still gives me eneogh air to gain some distance

or play with dx and not play tournaments..no brainer, and you will have the cash to buy more disc. hee hee hee throw hyzer..



Yeah, but I am a total junky for competitive golf...brings out my A game for sure!

cool~! wish I could say that

Not sure if its been mentioned yet, but you have to keep in mind that on contact with trees, candy discs are likely to kick/skip off the tree and fly in a different direction, whereas matted discs ("S", DX and D) take the hit and drop. In a tourney, it sucks to destroy a disc, but at least you are in the fairway still...its more expensive this way, but you will get lower scores...as with everything, its a tradeoff!



Personally, I've had enough nasty kicks with DX that I don't think I'll notice a difference! The key determiner is angle of impact, surely...

So anyway, I went out for field practice at the weekend.
I finally managed to get the new Firebird doing what I want, it's still pulling up about 30' short, but there was no wind and I figure a headwind will keep the disc straight that little bit longer. I found I really had to concentrate on keeping the disc flat on release, or even a little bit anhyzer, the old DX one I used a touch of hyzer, but again, that might be the lack of wind.

Also the guys I was out with had 175 and 176 Champ Orcs, so I had a good play with those. I found them almost identical to my DX Beasts but just a touch harder to turn over. Definitely buying one of those.

All I need now is a replacement for my Teebird...

All I need now is a replacement for my Teebird...



Have you tried the QJLS yet?

Have you tried the QJLS yet?



Nope, should I? I was thinking Z-XS, a Crush or maybe a Flick, which ever is closest...

jls's are great q or not q

But my question is, does it fly like a DX Teebird?
I'm happy with what everything in my bag does, I just want to 'candify' it...

But my question is, does it fly like a DX Teebird?
I'm happy with what everything in my bag does, I just want to 'candify' it...



To me it flies like a seasoned DX Teebird. It has a bit more high speed turn than a new DX Teebird, but still has some fade. It's speed is also similar but might have a tad more glide, too. I've never thrown an XS, so I can't really comment on it.