Now all companies have done this/continue to do this...

Why is it when you change the mold slightly they are determined to call the disc the same thing.

For example...

We all know that the roc mold has changed over the years. From a stable '01 to a slightly less stable 02, and so on and so forth.

If the mold changed, then why not call it something new?

I don't know the history of the other two major companies, but it just seems like Innova does this a lot. They have done it with the Roc, and more recently the Starfire. Plus It seems like someone said that the pro plastics are using a "-L" mold.

Something like this kinda happened with the old CE Teebirds/Firebirds. A lot of the CE Teebirds are unmarked TLs and the Firebirds changed from F/FX/FL, etc. I even have a CE Firebird that was marked as a FX that is an FL.

If someone says, "I have a roc in my bag." You instantly have to ask..."Is it a 10x, 11x, CE 01, CE 02, Glow 04, SB, etc." because the mold was changed from year to year.

I guess what I am saying is: why does innova insist on calling their discs the same thing even though the molds are different?

It's kinda like cars isn't it. They change the styles all the time and call it the same name.

I think the "naming it the same, but changing it with a letter" is pretty good... b/c take the Teebird/TL stuff... they're similar... but slap on an L, and then you dont have to worry about nother word... you just know that L = understable (leopard :)) or X = overstable.

IMHO

jaymo...i agree with you there with the adding of a letter. If someone says they have a TL, then we know that the disc is less stable, but if they say they have a CE Teebird I know I wonder(for a few seconds) if it is a CE T or CE TL. Gateway did the same thing with the Element and Element X.

The worst examplke of this would have to be the "Whippett"

That garbage that they try to pass off as a "whippett" now days is a joke.
Sure its overstable, BUT IT ISNT A "WHIPPETT"
For those who have been around awhile and have actually held a "real Whippett" would know that the "new" whippett is actually the mold from the Millinium LF. (I have a stack of them)If you hold them up to each other there is NO determinable difference.
It is my understanding the the "Original" whippett mold is "Broken" so that is why the change occured. Still they are not even close to being the same disc. :confused:

yeah for sure... like a different stamp just to indicate if it's the true disc, the L or the X version...

I think that'd be good... manufacturers take note

another one is the Python... I know it's not manufactured anymore. but **** man... if you've seen ones from the early 90's vs. the later 90's... they're crazy different.

Millineum (sic) does it right. First run is a 1.1, 2nd run same mold is a 1.2, new (or re-tooled) mold first run is 2.1.

I'm not sure if they still do this... they used to tho.

I know what your talking about it seems like innova likes to change their plastic any time they want, and I for one am sick of it so sick that I have started to replace my innova disc with Discraft since they are more consistent in their molding.
Innova changed the Tee-bird for the 10X plastic, to the CE-T mold to the Original white TL then to the 11x, then the CFR TL, then the Fake Champion, the to the pro T mold, and now the Pro TL. That's 8 different molds of the tee-bird with out the DX. Now what if some one like version 5 or 7 well that's just to bad since innova doesn't make it any more so how do you get that disc you go on eBay and pay out your @$$. The same went on with the roc, spider, starfire (which is on its third modification) and I'm sure countless other disc.
I've brought this issue up many times since I've been on this board and it still hasn't changed any thing. innova still changes the plastic or the mold when ever they fell it's time to tweak one of their disc, now I'm not saying that change is a bad thing but at least call the disc by a new name and not by it's predecessors. So when will a Tee-bird be just a Tee-bird and not some off shout of the last version.

Todd <
I havent seen any millinuem discs in a while.
But I also like that aspect of their discs.
Do they still produce new discs? :confused:

jaymo...i agree with you there with the adding of a letter. If someone says they have a TL, then we know that the disc is less stable, but if they say they have a CE Teebird I know I wonder(for a few seconds) if it is a CE T or CE TL. Gateway did the same thing with the Element and Element X.


IDM,
Our ( Gateways') 2 mid-ranges are definateley different discs and they are quite distinguishable from each other.
The Elements nose is round and the Element-X is flat!

We will eventually have 4 more mid-ranges from the same family of mold, But we dont plan on any more discs using the same name.It was a mistake on MY part to do this and It wont happen again. Each disc needs an independant identity!
#*
Most players who play this game and buy the products are recreational players and could could care less about the name. As long as it's translucent or clear they like it. It's the hard core guys on this board ( who only make up about 2% of sales) that it makes a difference to!
To put a different stamp on each run would be a nightmare for us at this point.
Once we start producing runs of 5000 dics per run I see going to the millineum method of 1.1 for each run and having it on the stamp is the best way to let other know what run its from..

I have heard from a reliable source that one of the main reassons for our competitors NOT MARKING the runs was, if there is somthing about a particular run that is not favorable, players who find out may not purchase that disc.
This could leave companies with a lot of discs laying around :mad:

It's not as bad as people make it out to be.

It would be one thing if flight characteristics for different runs of discs vary ENORMOUSLY. They don't.

For the most part, every run of Flash discs by Discraft vary only slightly, and every run of the Innova Orc is essentially the same disc with the same flight path. Even Rocs are basically the same mid-range flyer, although some runs fly a little straighter and some are more overstable.

The obvious exceptions are the 2nd run of CE Valkyrie which was an OVERSTABLE PIG as compared to any other run of CE Valkyrie, and the CE Archangel, which was also ridiculous overstable and had absolutely no glide when compared to the DX Archangel.

What Jeff said.

To clarify a few things. They <font color="red"> DID NOT </font> <font color="black"> </font> change the mold between the 01 and 02 etc... There was a slight change in plastic which may slightly alter the flight characterisitcs. When you change plastics completely ie. Champion or CE to Pro then there will be a slight difference in flight characterisitcs also.

The only way to trully distinguish between years, runs, colors, plastics and such is to have a mechanical devise set in a controlled enviroment with controlled conditions measure possible fluctuations. The reason said machine does not exist is the costs would be millions of dollars just for the machine and facility and that's not counting the millions needed for monitoring equipment.

What this means is that 99.9% of the disc golfers out there can't tell the difference between discs. Only the top 4 or 5 pros have the muscle memory needed to perform this task without mechanical equipment. If you go to a field you will not throw the same way everytime. The most minute change in angle, velocity, release etc. will alter the flight. And then there is the consideration of climate. The slightest variation in temperature, humidity, wind etc. will also affect flight.

Bottom line is that while you think there is a difference most of it is due to the operator rather than the equipment.
But hey it's alot easier to blame the equipment. :D

Oh yeah before you want to argue with what I said I have one simple challenge for you.

Take two identical discs. Weight, color, stamp, run and so on. Go to an empty field. Throw disc #1 first as hard as you can. After this, throw disc #2 the same way. If you have the proper muscle memory then disc #2 will land exactly on top of disc #1.

Should be easy enough.

Just stacked 4 d buzzz atop each other :p

I agree,

I've gone through numerous Beasts and Orcs and before that Valks. Even the difference between CE and the new Champion is not that great and for sure there is little detectible difference in all the rest of my discs (with the exception of the DX vs hard plastics rule). I've seen two cases where discs flew significantly different. One was a CE Eagle that flew very understable, very bizzare. The other were two pink Z Wildcats that were less stable than typical wildcats (although not hugely so). My guess is that these were flukes, occasional discs where the mold went wrong or the discs got warped when cooling due to some external factor. (BTW - I've bought well over 300 discs so the error rate for me is less than 1%; in manufacturing that's not phenomenal but it's not bad either.


IMO, all of the talk about color and runs is misleading. If you pick up the vids and watch pros, you won't see them throwing one color, or one set of discs consistently, I've seen them change out discs more often than not. I'm guessing if it doesn't matter to them, then it probably doesn't matter.

As they say, it's not the car, it's the bloke behind the wheel.

I know that the different plastics will cause the discs do different things. That is why I I didn't mention it.

But innova has retooled the starfire at least twice(someone said 3 times in this thread). The plastic didn't change(I am not talking about the pro starfire).


There are different roc molds...I mean you have blunt nose rocs and sharp nose rocs(please don't ask me what mold these are...cause I don't know).

Someone else mentioned the whippet too. I haven't been around long enough to know any other mold differences besides the ones I mentioned.

There have been 2 versions of the Starfire. The original and the retooled version which states so on the stamp.

As for ROCS, that is easy. Sanny, Ontario, Rancho and new SB which is a retooled Ontario. I'm just listing these and not the original wings and rings.

Differences in the runs can be caused by a number of things that have been discussed numerous times on other threads but I'll try and summerize real quick. Plastic variations, climatic conditions during production, stamping process and individual disc's placement in a case. (the last being mostly before Innova started using the stickers to avoid air suction.)

If you knew the costs involved with a mold (upwards of $30,000 per mold) then you would soon realize that it's not good business sense to create new molds simply to confuse your customer base. That and more obvious reasons also.

It's easy to sit here and criticize brand-x for perceived flucuations. What's hard is to admit that most don't have the drive to go out and actually learn what a disc will do. I'm not talking about a few dozen throws at the course but hours, days and weeks at the practice fields learning the true characteristics of a disc.

Once we master the disc then we can blame the trees for getting in the way of a perfect throw. :Dcause we know it's not our faults.

Oh yeah before you want to argue with what I said I have one simple challenge for you.

Take two identical discs. Weight, color, stamp, run and so on. Go to an empty field. Throw disc #1 first as hard as you can. After this, throw disc #2 the same way. If you have the proper muscle memory then disc #2 will land exactly on top of disc #1.

Should be easy enough.


You just admitted that changes in wind will cause flight differences, so you better hope the wind blows the same way twice. :D

(the last being mostly before Innova started using the stickers to avoid air suction.)



Ah....thats what that sticker is for. I thought it may have been a quality check point indicator, but your explanation makes more sense.

And for everyone, do not forget that Innova molds alot more discs then anyother disc manufacturer. Therefore their molds wear out more often and have to be repaired more. Each repair may or may not change the mold in some way, shape or form.

Personally, I don't have a particular loyalty to one manufacturer. However I am personally finding that Discraft is making a larger presence in my bag, right now it is about ~35% discraft, up from ~10% six months ago.

Throw what you know, know what you throw.

MR 2 putt,
I really like the final statement on your last post, but it could be sumed up with just the latter.
KNOW WHAT YOU THROW.

A player shoud develop confidence and trust in a flight of each individual disc by actually throwing them.

If I want to replace a disc in my lineup I get 4 or 5 disc of the same model and take them out to a field.
After 4-5 trips back and forth across the field 1 or 2 usually will stand out in the way of performance as the replacement. Doing this on the course is much harder to do and most likely will take longer and is not as accurate.

I know most players dont have the cash to buy 4 or 5 discs just to find one or two, But this is a big reason pros are pros and ams are ams and what seperates them! :D

Mr Gateway said

Most players who play this game and buy the products are recreational players and could could care less about the name. As long as it's translucent or clear they like it. It's the hard core guys on this board ( who only make up about 2% of sales) that it makes a difference to!


and in the next breath said

I have heard from a reliable source that one of the main reassons for our competitors NOT MARKING the runs was, if there is somthing about a particular run that is not favorable, players who find out may not purchase that disc.
This could leave companies with a lot of discs laying around :mad:



Nice logic you got working there, chief.

KNOW WHAT YOU THROW.
If I want to replace a disc in my lineup I get 4 or 5 disc of the same model and take them out to a field.




My thoughts exactly. We have to relieze they (the disc manufactures) are just using plastic. I am sure there are so many variables involved in the molding/mixing/cooling that no 2 discs will ever be exactly alike.
As for retooling of discs, I think most of the Innova retools have been for what Innova pros were looking for at that time. And I think using the Starfire as an example is just ridiculas, because until the Pro Model it wasn't even a regular production disc. It was a CFR @ $25.00 a pop. No thanks.
But I think the TeeBird is a good example of total confusion, I am still trying to figure out what the hype of the TeeBird is all about.
Over the last year I have become a firm believer in: "Its not the arrow its the Indian". I feel I could shoot well with any typical disc out there if given about 30 minutes in a field to experiement with the disc. That is why the only molds/discs I really change in my bag are long range drivers, as technology improves it is nice to get an extra 20-30ft. But I do have back-up/practice boxes of Big Bead Aviars, Rocs, and Leopards, in the plastic and molds I like, hahaha.
Cheers,
Matt

P.S. I also use broken in discs, Avairs and Rocs I retooled by use.

Innova changed the Tee-bird for the 10X plastic, to the CE-T mold to the Original white TL then to the 11x, then the CFR TL, then the Fake Champion, the to the pro T mold, and now the Pro TL. That's 8 different molds of the tee-bird with out the DX. Now what if some one like version 5 or 7 well that's just to bad since innova doesn't make it any more so how do you get that disc you go on eBay and pay out your @$$. The same went on with the roc, spider, starfire (which is on its third modification) and I'm sure countless other disc.
I've brought this issue up many times since I've been on this board and it still hasn't changed any thing. innova still changes the plastic or the mold when ever they fell it's time to tweak one of their disc, now I'm not saying that change is a bad thing but at least call the disc by a new name and not by it's predecessors. So when will a Tee-bird be just a Tee-bird and not some off shout of the last version.



What are you talking about? :confused: There are DEFINITELY not 8 or more molds for the Teebird...

The Starfire is a ridiculous example? Wha???

The Starfire is a perfect example.

Teebirds have not gone through 8 different molds. I count 2. The CE-T and the CE-TL. But if you remember, when CE Teebirds came out, a lot of them were in the TL mold and were marked as T. I have a CE Teebird at home that was marked as a T. Many people do not know how to tell the difference between a T or a TL unless they were told how to tell the difference.

Once again, Innova changes teh mold of the disc and yet decides to keep the name the same. Hopefully they will mark the new mold differently than the previous molds.

Oh...I am talking about the Champ Beast which has now gone through 3 mold changes.

Once again, Innova changes teh mold of the disc and yet decides to keep the name the same. Hopefully they will mark the new mold differently than the previous molds.

Oh...I am talking about the Champ Beast which has now gone through 3 mold changes.



Yeah, all that crap is really confusing to most.

Having personally seen and participated in the molding process, I can tell you that there is SO much going on that even getting seperate runs of only 10 discs on different days to come out the same is amazing!

Having personally seen and participated in the molding process, I can tell you that there is SO much going on that even getting seperate runs of only 10 discs on different days to come out the same is amazing!





So your saying what Innova does is amazing since they have so much more product out than anyone else? Id agree.

No, on the contrary...they run so many discs at a single time that it seems as if though they are more consistant, where in fact they are just as hit/miss as the rest. Maybe a little more refined, with as long as they have been doing it, but not too much. Keep in mind, they do runs of 5000+ at times...I don't know about Discraft, but Gateway's runs are more along the lines of several hundred versus several thousand.

Its not a diss on Innova nor a Gateway pimp, just plain fact.

My biggest issue is that sometimes when they change the mold they don't do anything different to mark the discs.

Another example that was used earlier: Starfires. The first mold and second mold starfires are marked the same way. Thankfully though they marked the L version as SL.

Discraft has issues with color stability(well for some discs).

The only issue Gateway had is using too many different names for the same mold that had different plastic. I could never remember the pairs that were teh same disc but in different plastic except for the demon/scout pair. They have fixed that by just calling the discs the same and changing it to include the name of the plastic. When Gateway changed their demon mold, even though they still called it a demon, you could tell by looking at the hotstamp which demon was which(G5i/G6i).

And even then, that was the same mold, just that the G6s shrunk up and cooled different resulting in a completly different disc than the usual G5s.

Teebirds have not gone through 8 different molds. I count 2. The CE-T and the CE-TL. But if you remember, when CE Teebirds came out, a lot of them were in the TL mold and were marked as T. I have a CE Teebird at home that was marked as a T. Many people do not know how to tell the difference between a T or a TL unless they were told how to tell the difference.



There are 2 Teebird molds in use today. They are marked differently on the bottom lettering, CA. and CAL. The CAL. is the same mold that has been used since the 1st run CE's, and was also run for 9x and 10x. Now both molds are currently in use for both Champion(11x KC) and DX. I havent seen 2 different TL molds.
SO 2 Molds for the teebird, 1 mold for the TL.