I just got 5 wizards and one says its E plastic and one says its H plastic, but they both seem to be exactly the same plastic. The E plastic isn't opaque or transperant and feels like the same flexibility and smoothness as H. Is this typical of E plastic? It seems more like innova's pro plastic than their champion.

I Know what you mean, it's hard to tell the difference. The E plastic is supposed to be more durable.

I think that E and H plastic kind of feel the same, too. The H Wizard I have is a lot domier than the E, though.

K cool thanks. I was just wondering if maybe it was mismarked because I know its possible to get mistamped discs with the 5 for 35 deal. I bet I'll notice a difference one I get some use out of them.

I have two S soft wizards. One black proto, which really feels like the H plastic. The other is a supersoft, and it feels a lot like a omega ss.

H and E are similar in the hand but fly different. E Wizards are pretty beefy and can take a lot of snap/spin. H are pretty reliablly overstable when decelerating, so they make good approach putters. PLUS, the E is flatter and usually a little slicker.

Dave

The first wizards out were chalky like the old cyclones. I know many seek these chalky wizards but I want to know what makes them that way? They seem to be a less durable but people like how they fly.

i have an e wizard and several S (super soft, soft, medium, firm).

i love the S wizards, but cant really figure out the E. it's domey and flippy. are there any E or H wizards that are flat and overstable? the firm S that i'm using for approaches is getting beat up very quickly, but i love it.

The chalkyness comes from using dry weight filler instead of concentrate. We do this by mixing up a batch that would weigh 165ish and adding dry weight filler in the hopper.
This will bring about a chalky residue similiar to talc.
We sometimes add powdered colorants to these "PROTO " runs to mask the white of the filler.
These are some of the best putters we have ever made, especially for those who like a chalky grip, but I dont think it changes the flght all that much.

Ya, I was looking for a difference in how the plastic felt and the H seemed a LITTLE more grippier and rubbery. I could press down on the surface with my thumb and drag it across and it'd skip making a farting noise, but with the E it just slides across.

Jack,
I take it you have a White E?
They should be a lot less springy than the H and most likely softer.
Get them out in a field and throw them hard.
Then report back with how they fly in coomparison to each other. Depending on your speed VS turbulance ratio, the E can be more or less stable.
For players who have a smooth clean, wobble free release with less speed = overstable.
For players with a lot of speed and a little wobble = understable.
The latter can be counter reacted with a hyzer or nose up release and the smoother release can be thrown flatter and even with reverse!
Moral to the story;
Theres more than 1 way to skin a cat :D(or throw each disc)

Moral to the story;
Theres more than 1 way to skin a cat


Dave, you have some sick hobbies. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif I mean I know people skin cats and all, but you gotta be one twisted individual to count how many ways you have done it.

Heh, ya its a white one and does seem a little softer. I could throw aviars around...200 ft maybe, i think i have a pretty clean release, we'll see.

The H should not change flex much in the cold Michigan weather, I'm not sre about the E. Let me know how they feel as well as fly once youve had a chance to test fly them.
You should also test them up against the other Wizards as well as your aviars.

The chalkyness comes from using dry weight filler instead of concentrate. We do this by mixing up a batch that would weigh 165ish and adding dry weight filler in the hopper.
This will bring about a chalky residue similiar to talc.
We sometimes add powdered colorants to these "PROTO " runs to mask the white of the filler.
These are some of the best putters we have ever made, especially for those who like a chalky grip, but I dont think it changes the flght all that much.



Thanks Dave. So is what your saying is that the dry weight filler just leaves the chalk/talc type residue and doesnt change the flight? Safe to say the durability would be the same as well? I know the knock on DX plastic (if thats what you call the original Wizards?) is that it beats up to quick. I personaly feel that type of plastic just gets better with age.
Did you make any of the softer Wizards with the dry weight filler?

Dave has made some supersoft wizards with the filler, that is what I putt with exclusively. I just tried to order some 2 days ago , and Justin said that they were out. So if you read this Dave, please bust out some supersoftys. :D:cool:

Todd E. #14610 :D

I got one today and went right out with it......its a good understable putter....but it had a tendincey to bounce out of the basket...a couple of shot hit dead center chain from 30 out or so and it bounced strait out.....you could see the disc bend and spap back propeling it out of the bucket...the H and the E plastic is sick though....

I got one today and went right out with it......its a good understable putter....but it had a tendincey to bounce out of the basket...a couple of shot hit dead center chain from 30 out or so and it bounced strait out.....you could see the disc bend and spap back propeling it out of the bucket...the H and the E plastic is sick though....



With a smooth release, you can actually turn over "E" Wizards and they will fight out of it to an extent. Definatly sick as hell!! :D /msgboard/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

My throws aren't quite consistent enough to make good flight characteristic comparisons between such similar discs. I threw an excellent about 200ft throw with my med s wizard which is the longest I've thrown a putter I think, then threw my big bead aviar just a couple feet in back of it... I really like the grip on the soft s wizard, and the grip on the med s wizard is almost the same too. The med s wizard seems really good for short arm putting too. Didn't throw the H and E much yet, and I lost my supersoft 2 days ago in the snow. Kinda doubten I'll get it back, cause its starting to warm up here, and the discgolf courses are packed. I really like the soft s for approach too.

I really like the soft s for approach too.



I fooled around with the firm and med wizards for upshots, but in the end I decided to use the same soft wizard for upshots under 150' and for putting. It holds up well, and the beating doesn't seem to alter the flight any more than it would a firm or med

The combination of grip and stiffness is "best" in the soft wizards, imho.

Glad you likey.

Peace :cool:

In the SS wizards is the filler the black specks? Also I feel that the totally uncharacteristic round bevel on the wizards is what gives it the ability to fly farther than that of any other putter. My max with a 3 time JK aviar was about 330ft 290ft accurately but my max has increased by 10ft and my accuate distance by 20ft.

I love the H plastic wizards.....its a beutiful approach disc....just slightly overstable enough to fly perfect for me from about 200 out or so....snap it out anti and it glides strait to the bucket....knocked down two long ones with it today.....the super softy is the short range putter that might replace my aviars(big maybee)..they all drive nice to..............H plastic is awsome I know that....it still sound a little funny when it hits but it dont matter when it's right next to the bucket...

I prefer Soft Wizards for putting. Supersoft ones also work great since there is almost no difference between Soft and Supersoft.

I throw mediums for straight short range drives up to 275'. They are dead accurate for me up to that distance and anything below that.

Matt,
The weight filler will only be white or the color of the disc. If there are black specs it is most likely a batch made from different colors of reground discs or a run right after a run of black. It usually takes about 100 discs for black to be completley gone.

Check your PM!

Ok well I like the specks in my pink SS it makes it a PIMPIN PUTTER. :D:D

I love the H plastic wizards.....its a beutiful approach disc....just slightly overstable enough to fly perfect for me from about 200 out or so....snap it out anti and it glides strait to the bucket....knocked down two long ones with it today.....the super softy is the short range putter that might replace my aviars(big maybee)..they all drive nice to..............H plastic is awsome I know that....it still sound a little funny when it hits but it dont matter when it's right next to the bucket...



Word...I like how the "H" Wizard is pretty overstable at low speeds...allows for a nice predictable approach.

predictable approach.

[/QUOTE]






took the words out of my mouth....

The combination of grip and stiffness is "best" in the soft wizards, imho.




Hmm...grippy and stiff??? Sounds like a dream for us Turbo putters!

Word...I like how the "H" Wizard is pretty overstable at low speeds...allows for a nice predictable approach.



I haven't thrown my E Wizard yet, but I use my H Wizard all the time. I haven't been playing for long and the H Wizard is one the first discs that found a permanent place in my bag. I normally throw it with an air bounce ("catch" type throw) and the big dome on it makes it comfortable for that type of throw for me. Just aim in front of and to the right of the basket, watch it skid to the pole and you're almost guranteed a drop-in.

Word...I like how the "H" Wizard is pretty overstable at low speeds...allows for a nice predictable approach.



I haven't thrown my E Wizard yet, but I use my H Wizard all the time. I haven't been playing for long and the H Wizard is one the first discs that found a permanent place in my bag. I normally throw it with an air bounce ("catch" type throw) and the big dome on it makes it comfortable for that type of throw for me. Just aim in front of and to the right of the basket, watch it skid to the pole and you're almost guranteed a drop-in.



Hell yeah. It has the perfect amount of glide and fade for my nose up anhyzer flex approach shot.

APPROACH what's that? /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

I love the H plastic wizards.....its a beutiful approach disc....just slightly overstable enough to fly perfect for me from about 200 out or so....snap it out anti and it glides strait to the bucket....knocked down two long ones with it today.....the super softy is the short range putter that might replace my aviars(big maybee)..they all drive nice to..............H plastic is awsome I know that....it still sound a little funny when it hits but it dont matter when it's right next to the bucket...



Word...I like how the "H" Wizard is pretty overstable at low speeds...allows for a nice predictable approach.



Sounds like I need to get my hands on some H wizards!!!

Are there any in the factory right now? Anyone...? Bueller...?

Better step it up to a soft to medium wizard cause you know what the Texas heat can do to a disc. All the wizards seem to have the same stiffness around the rim. It's the flight plate that you can feel the difference on. Don't know who said there is hardly no difference between a supersoft and soft wizard but after you have two that are broken in and feel the flightplate you can definatly feel the difference. A broken in supersoft wizards flight plate starts feeling like a stiffer omega ss. Keep in mind this is only my opinion.

I think the supersoft and soft wizard are very different in stiffness. My supersoft wizard is about same stiffness as a supersoft omega, and my soft wizard is harder than a classic big bead aviar. I could be wrong, but it seems to me that the flight plate firmness is determined by how firm the rim is. The amount I am able to bend the rim up and down in my two hands seems to correspond directly to the stiffness of the flight plate. I could be wrong, but it makes sense doesn't it? Stiff rim means the plastic on the flight plate is pulled tighter than a bendable loose rim? BTW, I threw my wizards even farther than my previous record, maybe 220ft now?, on my test hole I use, but like last time, my aviars went just as far... I'm throwing them on fairly straight hyzers and I still can't tell a difference in how they fly. I'll try putting more anny on them and seeing if I can tell a difference in the future.

Even though some runs of Soft and supersoft wizard may feel close in flexibilities at first, there is a polymer in the supersoft that is not in the soft.
This will allow the super soft to become much softer after use or a little flexing.
This is also true for the difference in the Medium and soft.
There is a polymer in the soft that is not in the medium that helps it become more flexible than the medium.
almost all runs of our "S" plastic can be made permanently more flexible by flexing in the hand without having to worry about losing the overall shape.
The base polymer for the "S" has very good resilency or memory that helps it retain it's shape after tree hits or flexing. The additives or softer materials in the "S" are what gives it the "SHUR-GRIP" feel and ability to loosen up after flexing.
This polymer is most likely the biggest difference between our S and DX or D!

So it dousn't taco like dx.....I still chips like dx....the only s plastic disc I realy love of yours is the blaze.....one of the best thumb discs I have used...you are right that the S plastic is a little bit better than dx....but why does my s plastic illution fly like a firebird....and my H plastic illusion flies like a orc.....that was weird....they are the same disc.......

Mmmm, "SHUR-GRIP" feel...thats what I really like about my soft s plastic wizard

RTF,
The discs will fly differently because of the shrinkage and surface frictions of the different polymers. Plus the weight distribution is also different depending on the melt flow of the polymer.
The S illusion is much flatter and the H has a little more of a dome. There is also a little more plastic ( by Weight) in the flight plates of higher end plastics compared to the rim, making them less gyroscopic. This will also make them less overstable on deceleration.
I'm sure youve noticed or heard the Innovas pro line discs fly less overstable than the C E or champion versions and the DX fly differently as well.
It's pretty common knowledge and not so weird.
As far as the chips go,I have mostly S plastic in my bag except for the E element-X, H illusion and E spirit and quite a few of the "S" discs are well over 2 years old and there are not really any "Chips" that affect the grip.
The minor abbrasions and imperfections of a used disc will give it added control.
I am not trying to talk you into using more "matted" type discs, especially if your not confident in their ability to improve your game.
But I can tell you most top pros have a significant number of used or broken in "matted" type discs in thier bags.
If Youve read any of the Barry Schults interviews, he states he switches to mostly Dx " matted" in weather condistions like rain or cold, even for his drivers.

TUCHEE......the first part I will take your word for ....but the innova disc part.....every new firebird is going to fly just about the same at the same weight.....same with a say..orc...all the plastics they make it in are just different grippyness....I am not putting down gateway when I talk about soft plastic that chips ....I throw dx rocs...and I have broke one in half on a tree....so all dx type plastic will do that....and I do carry many very broken in discs but the only ones that are dx are the rocs and putters(and now demon).....I just like how the better plastic takes longer to break in and stays in the zone of comfort for so long....I have at least 10 rocs that I have retired because of wear....If I had a stack of dx every round I would throw them but I need xtra long life due to the rough conditions in the texas land........

RTF,
Are you saying DX firebirds and orcs fly the same even in Pro line and Champion plastic?
You may want to get on the "ask Dave D thread" even the owner of the company will tell you this is WAY off base.

Good to hear the demon made your line-up though :D

all the plastics they make it in are just different grippyness



ya man, since i started disc golf a in the beggining of summer, all i've heard from people about plastics is basically how the more durable plastics fly different than the less durable ones, and there have been many reasons that make sense, including different cooling because of different chemicals in the plastics, and the smoothness of the more durable plastic to catch less air friction.

Demons should find a place in everyones bag!!

Sorry their will be a tiny bit if difference.....the dx will be less stable....I was just saying your disc the illution is tons more stable in s plastic than it is in e or h...thats a fact I have all 3......

They may be more stable on purpose. The S will beat up fast and that way you can work them into that nice beat up phase and they will fly straight for a long time.

Champ Orc -- Straight
Pro Orc -- Roller
hmm

They may be more stable on purpose. The S will beat up fast and that way you can work them into that nice beat up phase and they will fly straight for a long time.

Champ Orc -- Straight
Pro Orc -- Roller
hmm



I haven't thrown "E" yet, and I love my "H", but "S" Illusions are pertty nice too. Yeah they start off kinda beefy, but they break in nicely.

Kidroc,
Have you thrown the E element X yet?
What about the H or E illusions?
May be time for the rest of your "titan prize"

I have thrown the E Element X and it wasn't for me. It was too domey for my taste. I did like the S Element X.

I have not thrown an H or E Illusion. I am down for that! I have heard that the H is a little understable. Sounds promising.

P.S.--JD is a great addition to the team. He is gonna make me lots of money in the next few doubles tournaments down here. :D

I might have to play with him so he can make me some money as well. :D/msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif :D

I might have to play with him so he can make me some money as well. :D/msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif :D



Find your own ringer!

Ok. Hmmmm I wonder who I can play with I know NOLAN. :D:D

Curious...who's JD?

JD ramirez he's the #2 rated pro in TX. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

JD ramirez he's the #2 rated pro in TX. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif



And hes throwing Gateway now? Thats awesome!!

JD ramirez he's the #2 rated pro in TX. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif



And hes throwing Gateway now? Thats awesome!!



Yeah, I just gave him like 25 Gateway discs to practice with. I got him started throwing Wizards about a year and a half ago and he loves them. He one of the best putters in the state for sure. With the Element and Element X out now, he has been trying a lot more Gateway discs and really likes how they compliment his game.

World Doubles, here I come! :D

never heard of him...

Look him up on the stats page. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
Do you even know Danny or I?

JD is pretty good. I saw him shoot a pretty good round at Cameron Park East during the Texas 10 (55 overall and I think he double or triple boged hole 4). He was commiting surgery on the back nine. To keep this relevent he putts with the wizard.

Whoa that's crazy I putt with a wizard too. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Me too but I suck. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif It's not the wizards' fault though. My putting game is actually pretty good (only got better when I switched to wizards).

I switched to the Wizard 3 months ago and I love them. I especially like the "E" for drives. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Never tried the E's. Tried the H and it didn't get along with me too well. I put with soft wizards. Will and E wizard fly like a brand new soft wizard when throwing approach shots (for me thats 180 and in) or is it more or less understable?

The "e" wizard is more overstble than the "s". I haven't tried the "H" yet but if/when I do I will report back. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

The "H" wizard, or Chief, is slightly overstable at low speeds. I use mine for short hyzer approaches. I am pretty sure the E are even more overstable, but I know the chief, h wizard, is just slightly more overstable than the s wizard.

Cool thanks. :D:D

Is the wizard in E plastic candy plastic feeling or more rubber feeling like the H is. For some reason I don't like my putter/shorter approach discs to be rubbery feeling.

I personally love the feel of the "e" wizard for driving and even headwind putts. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

"E" Wizards aren't candy, but feel more like candy than "H". Pretty smooth, but still has grip. Likely the best putter off the tee. They putt well in the wind too as Matts pointed out.

Is the wizard in E plastic candy plastic feeling or more rubber feeling like the H is. For some reason I don't like my putter/shorter approach discs to be rubbery feeling.



The one I have isn't as rubbery or domey as the H Wizard, but still more rubbery than a soft S Wizard (I haven't felt a supersoft). I find the E is much easier to drive with than the H, partially because it isn't as rubbery, because it's lower profile and also because it's more overstable. I'll only use the E Wizard for putting or short approaches if I need something overstable (i.e. it has to go left). Mostly I use it for short drives. I use, and love, the H Wizard for approach shots where I use a control grip and throw an air bounce...which is most of my short approach shots.

The supersofts feel like an eraser and are nothing like the "E" wizards. I personaly love the supersofts. In particular in the cold winters of Wisconsin. The "E" Wizards are still mostly the choice off of the tee. The supersofts have a rubber compound(Dave correct me if I am wrong) that most other putters do not have in them. This allows for maximum grip and feel in all conditions. They are just rigid enough to hold up to warmer temps without turning to silly putty. Definately the putter of choice!!!! Do not confuse the SOFT with the SUPERSOFT, as they are distinctly different plastics. :D

Mad_Town,

Do you know if Dave still plans to make a beadless Wizard? I recall seeing that in one of his posts a while back. I would think that a beadless Wizard would be nearly identical to the beadless Avair that I have come to love for putting, especially in the firm S plastic.

On a side note, I got to play with Doug Chilcote the second round at the Cracked Plastic Classic this weekend. He was nice enough to let me dig around in his bag and check out some of the Gateway molds. Obviously I didn't get a chance to throw anything, but I liked the way some of the discs felt in my hand, especially the supersoft Wizard.

Mad_Town,

Do you know if Dave still plans to make a beadless Wizard? I recall seeing that in one of his posts a while back. I would think that a beadless Wizard would be nearly identical to the beadless Avair that I have come to love for putting, especially in the firm S plastic.

On a side note, I got to play with Doug Chilcote the second round at the Cracked Plastic Classic this weekend. He was nice enough to let me dig around in his bag and check out some of the Gateway molds. Obviously I didn't get a chance to throw anything, but I liked the way some of the discs felt in my hand, especially the supersoft Wizard.



Dig up the ask Gateway David thread and post the question. Bet you he answers it pretty quick then.

Ditto the last post. I know he has talked about it in the past, but you would have to ask him(Dave) for sure. I hope that he does myself!! :D:cool:

All right, I will dig through all of the old posts and try to revive the Ask Dave Mac thread.

Thanks guys!

Do not confuse the SOFT with the SUPERSOFT, as they are distinctly different plastics. :D



Who's confusing the two?

Doug is the man. I stayed at his house last year for Michiana he had some crazy Gateway stuff that was so domey it looked like a soup bowl. Doug has a huge back yard and I witnessed Peter Wyngaard throw a Wizard at least 400 feet on a line

Some replies earlier in this thread suggested that the soft and supersoft wizards were pretty much the same plastic. I was just trying to clarify that issue. :D

Brooke,
The Domey discs you are referring to were most likely H sabres( formally the apache) and H Blaze ( formally the Warrior),
We are no longer running the H in these 2 discs, but its too bad as the domey Apaches are great beginner discs because of the dome :(.
The latest runs of our sabres and Blazes in the Evolution plastic are almost FLAT!
I still havent thrown them yet, but the initial response to the look and feel has been GREAT!! :cool:

hmm...a flat sabre you say?!? I might have to try to get my hands on that. The S Sabre I have is domey and a little to understable for what I was looking for.

Depending on how hard you throw and how much turbulance you have the Clear evolution should be less understable than the domier S.
I may try to get the Evolution a little firmer the next time we run it in the Sabre, as I personally prefer to not have my thumb sink into the disc when I grip it.
This is the opposite for most player though especially if they are used to "candy" plastic already.
*
The beefiest of "S" Sabres are marked 844, FX or FR, with the majority of them being white with the small Gateway Stamp.

with drivers I prefer them a bit harder myself. I don't like the gummy plastics at all...grippy yes, gummy no. I'll have to keep in tough with Matt for when he gets some of these.

His should be on the way!

Did you get to play with matt this weekend?
He should have the latest and greates by now!

I sure have. :D:D

Matt did you get any of the Clear Blazes?
What about some of the E element-X's

Yeah I posted about them on the New discs for 2005 thread. :D:D

I have been using a soft wizard to putt with for almost a year now. I really love this disc but around 3 months ago something I dislike has started happening to it. The area where my thumb goes has started to sink in some spots and rise in others (around the whole disc, and just so people don't see this as a slam it happens to other companies putters also). This bothers me a bit cause it throws my putts off (mainly my release) when I grab it where it is sunk in or raised. I was wondering if this happens to medium or firm wizards?

That seems to happen with all the Wizards I have thrown as they break in. I am using the older "dots" stamps (predating soft, medium, and firm blends I believe, from the days where Wizards were Wizards and you didn't get to pick your plastic) I don't putt them but use them for short drives so it doesn't matter so much to me. The ones that seem to do that the most were the protos. I think its a side effect from the Wizards being so rim weighted (less plastic in the flight plate, more on the rim). Extra stability vs. a lumpy flight plate as it breaks in. Hmmm, I think I like my lumpy Wizards.

I have some early run firm mistamps that have held up very well. Only one of them now has a bumpy flight plate after hitting a tree. The firm putter is good in the hot summer temps.

Rocco,
most medium Wizards become much softer after playing and never get the thumb marks.
I know we had trouble making super soft without the dimples.
We've retooled the wizard flightplate about .005 thicker.
(Its still the thinnest of any putter out there by over .010)
The change is almost unnoticable by the eye or feel.
We ran some supersofts and friday and I put one to the test to see how well it wears in.
Results were pretty good for super soft.
I think the dips in the top will be a thing of the past.
Now the problem will be, players asking for the ones " with the dimples" :D

Wizards are still the bomb no matter what. The problem is probably more along the lines of my putting not standing up to the potential of this disc. :D

Amen to that.

Once you can trust that it " goes where you throw it:"
you will have more success.
I had thrown aviars for 16 plus years and mainly big beads and firm magnets the last 10. It took a few weeks to learn the Wizard off the tee. If your used to a putt and approah they may be a little more overstable but still less than the big beads under 60 feet.
If your only putting with them, make sure you try it off the tee for holes you can reach.
They can hadle a lot of torque and have the same stability from 50' - 350'. This is what makes the wizard different from most other putters when used as drivers.
We do have plans for a very small bead or beadless Wizard before too long! They will be easier to turn or throw hyzer flip ups with. :cool:

SWEET!

SWEET!



After a while, I lent my very first Wizard to a buddy...when I got it back it was obvious that it had seen some concrete abuse...the bead was gone!! Its now the smoothest turnover Wizard I have ever thrown...

When David makes beadless Wizards, they will definatly be pretty sweet!

You guys sent me a bunch of good discs...but you didn't send any evolution....now im going to have to buy it on ebay....I got a bunch of people that want to see it....