I hate posting in this section because I always seem to get killed here, but had a question, and it's been a long time since I was verbally assaulted, so here goes! :D

I played a round the other day in muddy conditions. That actually is an understatement. It was so muddy, it was hard to walk on flat ground. My disc landed on a slope, and there was no footing to be had. I tried several times, leaving my disc in the ooze, but had to keep stepping over and running down. I decided to start at the top of the slope, slide down, and within one foot (ha, I caught myself here! 30cm!) of the disc, make a throw. This worked well because the slope was only about 5� from the top to the bottom, with my disc right in the middle, and the mud was slick, but thick as you dug in, so the slide was slow, even though you could not stop.

Would this be considered a legal stance? If not, what would a player have to do? Mud is not a casual obstacle, right? It was not an unsafe lie. To me it was like a slow runup, and then, after the release, I stepped over and ran in small steps to keep my balance.

Thanks for the help in this �matter�. :D

Don

I don't know, I would call it an unsafe lie. When you're over 40 and you do the splits or fall on your arse it can be very painful.

Without going to the rules I think there is a provision for being able to take a legal stance and if you can't you can take 5M of relief. I would have to look up the actual text to know if it applies or not.

If you were within 30 cm of your marker and on the LOP at the time of release, then it was a legal throw. It sounds to me like you made a great adjustment to the conditions and stayed within the rules to make your throw! :)

As for the Unsafe Lie Rule, it states that a player may, at any time and for any reason, declare an unsafe lie and take relief with a penalty. I think it should be renamed "The Undesirable Lie Rule". In the case of the slippery mud, I think that lie truly is unsafe as you could easily fall. But you can declare an unsafe lie at any time. Still, it feels like cheating to declare an unsafe lie when there is nothing unsafe about your lie in different conditions. But per the rules you can declare it any time.

I hate posting in this section because I always seem to get killed here, but had a question, and it's been a long time since I was verbally assaulted, so here goes! :D

I played a round the other day in muddy conditions. That actually is an understatement. It was so muddy, it was hard to walk on flat ground. My disc landed on a slope, and there was no footing to be had. I tried several times, leaving my disc in the ooze, but had to keep stepping over and running down. I decided to start at the top of the slope, slide down, and within one foot (ha, I caught myself here! 30cm!) of the disc, make a throw. This worked well because the slope was only about 5� from the top to the bottom, with my disc right in the middle, and the mud was slick, but thick as you dug in, so the slide was slow, even though you could not stop.

Would this be considered a legal stance? If not, what would a player have to do? Mud is not a casual obstacle, right? It was not an unsafe lie. To me it was like a slow runup, and then, after the release, I stepped over and ran in small steps to keep my balance.

Thanks for the help in this �matter�. :D

Don



What do you think Don, is it? Take a glance at our rules and let us know what you find there.

Well, Nick, to me it was logical, but I wondered if any of you would have called me on it. I could not think of a rule against it, at the time, and cannot find one now. As far as a "glance" at the rules, I have done more than that. :)

dm4:

Sounds like you were legal to me. But we know how easy of a TD I can be don't we. :eek:/msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif :D

What course where you on?

Hi bob. On the contrary, you are a real stickler! :D It was at home in Norton, better known as "Mud City" after that ice storm. Good practice for upcoming Ice Bowls though!

Don

I agree with your findings. It is not illegal, as you described it to us.

Thanks for your input, Nick. It was very fun to slide and throw. You all should try it some time! I was able to save par with that shot! :D

The only problem I can see would be if you were within 10m of the basket and stepping over the mark after the throw advanced you toward the target. I think it was a very imaginative way to play the shot within the rules.

I think I might have taken a penalty and tried to find safer footing. I have been injured by throwing from slick mud and by throwing from slopes (though I haven't really tried both at the same time).

Casual mud?

Still, it feels like cheating to declare an unsafe lie when there is nothing unsafe about your lie in different conditions.



Why would it feel like cheating? You just called a penalty shot on yourself.

<font color="blue">
I think it should be renamed "The Undesirable Lie Rule".

</font>

I suspect strongly that not only should it, but that it will.

Hopefully along with the deletion of the 2MR! :D;) :p :o

Still, it feels like cheating to declare an unsafe lie when there is nothing unsafe about your lie in different conditions.



Why would it feel like cheating? You just called a penalty shot on yourself.



Because in the cases where there is no more possibility of injury than usual, it isn't really "unsafe".

It's just a terminology thing.

Still, it feels like cheating to declare an unsafe lie when there is nothing unsafe about your lie in different conditions.



Why would it feel like cheating? You just called a penalty shot on yourself.



Because in the cases where there is no more possibility of injury than usual, it isn't really "unsafe".

It's just a terminology thing.



Which as Rhett points out, in 2006 (should have been 2005), a term that will be soon corrected. We might as well start thinking of it in it's better terminology "Undesirable Lie". It should help folks approach it in a more logical fashion.

I always wondered why an unsafe lie requires a penalty, but casual relief does not. Seems backwards.

I always wondered why an unsafe lie requires a penalty, but casual relief does not. Seems backwards.



You are dealing with meanings of words, like "Unsafe" which is understandable. Now change "Unsafe" to "Undesirable" and I think you will now understand why a penalty throw is warranted.

There is penalty throw free relief for some actually �dangerous lies�. Check out the Obstacles and Relief rules.

I would even argue that by the current definition of casual relief it is there mainly for safety reasons while the unsafe lie rule is more often used for practicality than safety (unless you are talking of protecting your score).

<font color="blue">
I think it should be renamed "The Undesirable Lie Rule".

</font>

I suspect strongly that not only should it, but that it will.




I wonder where Nick gets this strong suspicion...

<font color="blue">
I think it should be renamed "The Undesirable Lie Rule".

</font>

I suspect strongly that not only should it, but that it will.




I wonder where Nick gets this strong suspicion...



Logic, reason, well founded experience, discussions with fellows of similar mindset... should I go on?

I was thinking that it came from that draft copy of the '05 proposed rules changes you got from the RC.

Great question.

I'm stunned that no one here called you. I'm usually the guy on the other side of rules. Usually Rhett & Nick like to cal them., and I like to see how far you can push the limits. :D

It sounds legal, but how far were you from the basket again? It seems to me that you conceeded the playability of the actual lie (directly behind the disc, and there for your demonstarted balance and throwing motion started somewhere other than that. Namely up the hill where you last demonstrated balance.

Once you concede that you can not safely initiate the shot from that spot it is unplayable.

A backward falling putt.

Or I think they call it "building a bridge" in ball golf. Except you built a slide.

Either way your throwing motion & support point did not start directly behind your lie. (The motion as you know does not only include your Arm but your whole body.)

I would say you played the wrong lie and should suffer accrodingly, (2 strokes) and that you would have suffered less doing the right thing (1 stroke) and taking the added stroke for "unsafe" or "unplayable" lie.

To wit, Rhett, that is why it is not called an "undesirebal lie"

Trust me, I have had plenty of "undesireable" lies :D where i would have gladly taken a stroke to move my lie a few feet for the next shot.

I once watched Stokely land on the side of a ridge on 12 Dela where he could not safley stand and throw. He could have run up or down the hill side and flung the disc as he stepped by the spot, but that was not and is not at all in the spirit of the game or the rule.

Scottt did the right thing, and took the stroke, and the unplayable lie.

It sounds legal, but how far were you from the basket again? It seems to me that you conceeded the playability of the actual lie (directly behind the disc, and there for your demonstarted balance and throwing motion started somewhere other than that. Namely up the hill where you last demonstrated balance.
.
.
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Either way your throwing motion & support point did not start directly behind your lie. (The motion as you know does not only include your Arm but your whole body.)



There is no requirement in our rules to this effect. The only requirement, if you are outside of 10m, is that you meet the stance requirements at the time of release.

The only thing called for in our rules is that you have at least one supporting point on the LOP and within 30cm, and that no supporting points be closer than the rear edge of the marker at the time of release.

I don't know where you get the thing about starting behind your lie from.

Casual water is like a small puddle that poses no physical danger to the player themselves.

There is nothing casual about the side of a cliff. If your disc gets stuck to a twig on the side of a sheer 200 foot cliff you simply couldn't play it. It is not only "undesirable" it's unplayable.

If a hillside becomes muddy or unstable, it definitely poses a threat to your person. Just ask the people in La Conchita.

Think about it in TD terms. You try some lame-o shot from a mud-slide, fall down and break your neck. Then you try to sue the TD, the tournament and the park. "because the rules said I had to play it from there"

And that is exactly the difference.

"undesirable" is like when your disc lands in poison oak and you don't want to stand in it.. Or your disc stops in a puddle and you don't want to get your feet wet.

"unplayable" or "unsafe" is when the lie is such that if the player throws from said lie they stand a good chance of causing serious bodily injury to themselves, another player, or spectator.

Think of "undesirable" as humanly playable, but inconvenient.

All Unplayable lies are Undesrieable, but not all undesrieable lies, are unplayable. That doesn�t really have to do with golf, it has to do with the English language and logic.

I would therefore say the term �undesirable� is just that.
:D

Good point Rhett. It's kind of assumed.

And I guess a run up is kind of the same thing ?

But it seesm like intention counts for something?

IE, If a player falls down because they chose to run up to a reasonable safe lie, it's there own liability, and demonstarted control.

This example does not have demonstarted control. Isn't there something about that?

And that relates to Rhett's question how ?

As Rhett said there is nothing in the rules about where you start your stance, only where it has to be (and can't be) at the point of release.

There is also no rule in the book that says you are required to play any lie if you think it is unsafe. There are penalties involved, and it is the players decision to risk a potentially unsafe lie or take the penalty and be safe.

Demonstrated balance only comes into play within 10m after the putt.

Jim,

Someone mentioned somewhere that you are now on the RC, is that true?

Did someone die or something? ;)

And that relates to Rhett's question how ?




Imagine this.


Your playing a hole that has a 400 foot sheer cliff off of the right side.

Player A throws their drive and it goes over the cliff falls half way and sticks to the side of the cliff 200 feet down / up. On a vertical plane.

So you're saying the player could jump off the cliff, touch their foot to the wall, and throw as they fell by. And that this would seem legal, safe and in the spirit of the game to you?

I would say it is an unsafe / unplayable lie, and even if player A wanted to play it to save a stroke. I'd say No Friggn way.

Rules are not about the player directly effected, but eveyone as well. Just like a courtesy violation. When you're doing stupid things, it effects other players.

A better example is the one at Delaveaga where you're disc comes to rest just on the edge of the road. You must take a meter in regardless of wether it helps your line or not, because we don't want to watch you get hit by a car. Which might be OK with you to save a storke, but it's a real bummer for the driver of the car and the rest of us who have to stop and scrape you up.

You can not start from OB.

So Rhett the is some thing in the books about where your throw starts. No?

"A player can not throw from out of bounds"

excuse me "release from out of bounds"

It's kind of assumed you wouldn't start from the middle of the road.

But also- there are parts of rules that are implied by common sense.

For instance, there is no rule that says you can not start the run up for your drive from 400 feet away, and run across 3 fairways in the process, but I'm sure it would bother people.

Yes, If a player managed to touch a foot to the 30cm point directly behind his previously thrown disc just as he was releasing his throw, it would be legal. Not very smart in my opinion, but within the rules.

The safety of the original shot was not part of the question that started this thread. As to the latest question, I don't think having saved a stroke would do a player with multiple broken bones much good after they got out of the hospital.

Another point is that unless the TD has declared a portion of the course unplayable under a special provision, any opinion of another players lie has no bearing on whether they are able to play it or not. It is unsafe anytime the throwing player says it is and only if the throwing player says it is.

[So you're saying the player could jump off the cliff, touch their foot to the wall, and throw as they fell by. And that this would seem legal, safe and in the spirit of the game to you?

I would say it is an unsafe / unplayable lie, and even if player A wanted to play it to save a stroke. I'd say No Friggn way.

And where, precisely, do the Rules grant you the power to declare another player's lie unsafe/unplayable?

803.05 specifically grants the player whose lie it is the right to declare the lie unsafe. It does not grant that right to any other playera, officials, or the TD. If a player choose to play from that lie, that's his/her right. Just because you consider a lie unsafe or unplayable, doesn't mean that everyone else has to consider it unsafe/unplayable. The only person with the power to overrule a player's choice it the TD, and then only if the TD has designated and announced a special condition governing the area prior to the start of the tournament.


You can not start from OB.

And where, precisely, do you find that in the Rules? 803.03 specifies that all a player's supporting points must be in-bounds when the disc is released. It does not require that a player remain in-bounds at all times prior to or following the release of the disc; it doesn't require that the run-up start in the vicinity of the hole; it doesn't require that the run-up begin no closer to the hole than the rear edge of the marker disc; it doesn't even require that the run-up begin or end on the playing surface.

I agree with fore.

Sorry John. But the rules really don't say anything about where you start your throw, only about what requirements must be met at the time of release. That's why I called a "Non-Rules Rule Warning". :)

Jim,

Someone mentioned somewhere that you are now on the RC, is that true?

Did someone die or something? ;)



Nah, someone just decided that the way I debate rules was well thought out and coherent, not abrasive, repetitive or abusive. :D

Jim, what was the answer to the first question?

Is it true that someone said that I'm on the Rules Committee?

Yes.

OK I guess you're right.

But we discussed it, and if you do it @ Dela in the 5 dollar round, we're stroking you :D

So would it be right to say that the supporting point does not have to be defined before the throw?

I guess it is defined by that line where you are supposed to be, and so long as you are there at the moment of realease, it's legal ?

Just trying to understand?

I also was under the impresion that a player could not have a support point OB at the moment of release. Is this wrong? Could one fooot be in the road for example?

And where, precisely, do the Rules grant you the power to declare another player's lie unsafe/unplayable



I was thinking from the TD's perspective. Like if I was in the position to make that call, I'd really try to discourage them from jumping off the cliff :D


You can not start from OB



I think that was taken out of context, but I'm guessing that your more often than not a courtesey violation to someone in the vicinity when you start from OB. :D
Too many assumptions I guess :o

But we discussed it, and if you do it @ Dela in the 5 dollar round, we're stroking you :D

Non-PDGA-sanctioned rounds, do whatever you want; PDGA-sanctoned, no can do.


So would it be right to say that the supporting point does not have to be defined before the throw?

Look up the definition of "supporting point." Pay particular attention to the last phrase.


I also was under the impresion that a player could not have a support point OB at the moment of release. Is this wrong? Could one fooot be in the road for example?

803.03.A(3)

Jim,

Someone mentioned somewhere that you are now on the RC, is that true?

Did someone die or something? ;)



Nah, someone just decided that the way I debate rules was well thought out and coherent, not abrasive, repetitive or abusive. :D



Not to mention modest...

I was thinking from the TD's perspective. Like if I was in the position to make that call, I'd really try to discourage them from jumping off the cliff :D

A TD can make that call, but only before the tournament begins. Once the tournament starts, it's out of the TD's hands. In principle, at least, if the TD does make the call but doesn't announce it in some manner (orally, printed on the flyer, etc.), the call has no force. (804.01.A)


I think that was taken out of context, but I'm guessing that your more often than not a courtesey violation to someone in the vicinity when you start from OB. :D

Why would it be? If your thrown disc comes to rest in-bounds 2m from OB on Winthrop Gold #12 (http://usdgc.com/course/directions/coursemap.html) (or any hole on Winthrop Gold, for that matter) and you start your run-up 2m into OB (4m total run-up), why would that present any more of a visual distraction than if you began somewhere in-bounds?

Not to mention modest...



True that. I thought it was assumed....

Not to mention modest...



True that. I thought it was assumed....



Perhaps by one person at least..

Well congratulations then. Is there any reason as to why the draft is not being more widely released?

Is there any reason as to why the draft is not being more widely released?




That would be a question for Carlton.

Maybe it's best not to distribute it to just anyone because people will make assumptions, kind of like the premature announcement that the 2m rule was going away.

Is there any reason as to why the draft is not being more widely released?




That would be a question for Carlton.

Maybe it's best not to distribute it to just anyone because people will make assumptions, kind of like the premature announcement that the 2m rule was going away.



Perhaps, but it might help to explain why we are making the changes we are and to get a wider spectrum of input on possible gray areas. I'm fine either way, but I do think it might be worthwhile in some areas at least.

I think that was taken out of context, but I'm guessing that your more often than not a courtesey violation to someone in the vicinity when you start from OB.

Why would it be? If your thrown disc comes to rest in-bounds 2m from OB on Winthrop Gold #12 (or any hole on Winthrop Gold, for that matter) and you start your run-up 2m into OB (4m total run-up), why would that present any more of a visual distraction than if you began somewhere in-bounds?




You see this is where I always get hung up only thinking of my home course. When I think of OB, besides water and tree's I always think "road" you're in the road. So for us, we don't want you standing in the road as you might get hit by a car, or block the road, and our neighbors hate that :D

I was also thinking of the extreme example where someone said you could start your run up form really far away ... I figure at some point you'll be crossing someones fairway?

I hadn't considred thet yellow rope? Probably beacuse I've only heard of in in legend /msgboard/images/graemlins/ooo.gif and probably only will unless Rick decides to send me out there to take photo's someday :D oh please oh please That would be way cool :cool:

Anyway, I should know you guys are going to clobber me on these things when i gte carried away without thinking. I'm much to home course -centric.

Hey Jim

What do you think of my new Sig ? :D

They are after you especially when you're paranoid that's when you least expect them to come for you.

New question for anyone in the know:
we have natural tees at a course that conducts winter leagues and the turf can be filled with all types of nasty...ice and other distractants. the league is played with liberal tees and thats fine for sunday mornings...but here's my ?:

during a tournament, could I bring a large towel or a mat of some sort to lie down on the tee for safety reasons. I've experimented with a beach towel and a bath mat and both work great. Is this violating any pdga rules?

Yes, you can. There are basically no rules against building up your lie, particularly on the tee pad.

Perhaps there should be a couple though...

Is it legal if you are on a steep muddy slope to stab a stick into the ground so you can put your weight on it without sliding???

If it is not prohibited or a clear case of trying to circumvent the rules of play then it is allowed.

Sticking things in the ground could be interpretted as willfull destruction of the course, but that might be stretching it a little.

Am I also right in saying that the stick can't come from the course either. Because if you grab a stick from in front of you lie, that is illegal. If you grab a stick from behind your lie, you are changing the layout of the course(I know I am strecthing this)...

Am I also right in saying that the stick can't come from the course either. Because if you grab a stick from in front of you lie, that is illegal. If you grab a stick from behind your lie, you are changing the layout of the course(I know I am strecthing this)...



If your going to say that then i guess people should be stroked for walking down the fairway and kicking a stick or moving some leaves because they are changing the layout of the course as well.

Just a thought

Am I also right in saying that the stick can't come from the course either.

No.


Because if you grab a stick from in front of you lie, that is illegal.

Only if the stick is an obstacle between the lie and the hole; if it is not an obstacle, it may be moved (803.04.B, C).


If you grab a stick behind your lie, you are changing the layout of the course

So? 803.04.C permits casual obstacle to stance, throwing motion, or run-up to be moved, even though they are, by definition, behind the lie, and moving them changes the layout of the course.

It would also come into play every time a player picked up a stick to retrieve a disc from the water or picked up rocks and sticks to try and knock a disc out of a tree.

Not currently considered a violation.

The only thing called for in our rules is that you have at least one supporting point on the LOP and within 30cm, and that no supporting points be closer than the rear edge of the marker at the time of release.
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ok here is my dumb question of the day:
what is rhett refering to when he say"LOP" ?

TFO

The only thing called for in our rules is that you have at least one supporting point on the LOP and within 30cm, and that no supporting points be closer than the rear edge of the marker at the time of release.
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ok here is my dumb question of the day:
what is rhett refering to when he say"LOP" ?

TFO



Line of Play: The imaginary line on the playing surface extending from the center of the target through the center of the marker disc and beyond.

Not sure if this answers your question, but it is a point that needs to be brought up as often as possible in light of how often it gets misinterpretted.


Rule Question: Obstacle to Stance and Flight Path


Question: Steve throws his drive under a large fallen tree branch. The branch is clearly dead and unattached from the tree it formerly came from. Steve knows that he can normally move casual obstacles that interfere with his stance, throwing motion, and/or run-up under PDGA rule 803.04c2 and 803.04c3. However, the branch is quite large, and part of the branch lies between Steve's lie and the hole. Can Steve legally move this branch?

Applicable Rules:
803:04 Obstacles and Relief

Answer: No. It is the interpretation of the rules committee that PDGA rule 803.04c(1) takes precedence here. No relief is granted from casual obstacles between the lie and the hole. Steve needs to avoid throwing next to such obstacles if he doesn't want to have to negotiate them! If the branch is such that Steve cannot take a stance, then Steve can relocate his lie to the CLOSEST point of relief on the line of play that is no more than 5 meters away from the original lie with no penalty. Steve could also declare an unsafe lie under 803.05. This ruling also applies, even if the obstacle in question is NOT in the flight path between the lie and the hole. Steve is not allowed to move any obstacle that is totally or partially between his lie and the hole.

Yours Sincerely,
The PDGA Rules Committee

Dr. Rick Voakes
Harold Duvall
Joe Garcia
John Chapman
Conrad Damon
Carlton Howard

Not sure if this answers your question, but it is a point that needs to be brought up as often as possible in light of how often it gets misinterpretted.


Rule Question: Obstacle to Stance and Flight Path


Question: Steve throws his drive under a large fallen tree branch. The branch is clearly dead and unattached from the tree it formerly came from. Steve knows that he can normally move casual obstacles that interfere with his stance, throwing motion, and/or run-up under PDGA rule 803.04c2 and 803.04c3. However, the branch is quite large, and part of the branch lies between Steve's lie and the hole. Can Steve legally move this branch?

Applicable Rules:
803:04 Obstacles and Relief

Answer: No. It is the interpretation of the rules committee that PDGA rule 803.04c(1) takes precedence here. No relief is granted from casual obstacles between the lie and the hole. Steve needs to avoid throwing next to such obstacles if he doesn't want to have to negotiate them! If the branch is such that Steve cannot take a stance, then Steve can relocate his lie to the CLOSEST point of relief on the line of play that is no more than 5 meters away from the original lie with no penalty. Steve could also declare an unsafe lie under 803.05. This ruling also applies, even if the obstacle in question is NOT in the flight path between the lie and the hole. Steve is not allowed to move any obstacle that is totally or partially between his lie and the hole.

Yours Sincerely,
The PDGA Rules Committee

Dr. Rick Voakes
Harold Duvall
Joe Garcia
John Chapman
Conrad Damon
Carlton Howard



That's all well and good, but it is only relevant to the questions under discussion if the stick/branch constitutes an obstacle.

There is nothing in the initial query or Beached Will's to suggest even remotely that the stick in question is, or could be construed as, an obstacle.

thats great news! thanks for the info. looks like martha stewart and the pdga should get together and make designer fly pads...she's not doing much these days anyway.

I'll be taking my beach towel to a sloppy ice bowl tomorrow!

Hence:

Not sure if this answers your question, but it is a point that needs to be brought up as often as possible in light of how often it gets misinterpretted.



Good luck with the beach towel. Mike Moser never leaves home without it...

I always love this argument - it seems to be the most commonly misinterpreted idea in disc golf - that a player has a "right to a stance or run-up."

Patently false.

If you don't want to have to make a throw from the brush, then you shouldn't have thrown there to begin with. If you want to argue that you can't make either a decent swinging motion with your arm, or a safe stance, then take your medicine and take a stroke and relocate your lie or two strokes and move back into the fairway.

Good for you Ching.

I agree.This thread is full of cheese

I always love this argument - it seems to be the most commonly misinterpreted idea in disc golf - that a player has a "right to a stance or run-up."

Patently false.

If you don't want to have to make a throw from the brush, then you shouldn't have thrown there to begin with. If you want to argue that you can't make either a decent swinging motion with your arm, or a safe stance, then take your medicine and take a stroke and relocate your lie or two strokes and move back into the fairway.



I think that you are on a different topic, but I agree 100% and hope that the new rules revisions directly address and clarify this. I don't even want folks to be able to move what we call "casual obstacles". (All instances of "obstacles" should be replaced by "objects" anyway.)

As you say, if you don't want to be in an awkward lie then don't throw into an awkward lie.