Can anyone tell me who were the first women in disc golf? Who was the first female PDGA member? I would love to know the history of the womens movement in the sport.

Putt you thinking caps. :D

thatwould be mark atwood :D

I am not getting pissy but I would like to explain something to all of the disc golf guys. When you use women to make fun of men you are really insulting the women. I hear it all the time "even Danielle beat you" or "you got beat by a girl" like that is the worst thing ever. Like women are the crappiest disc golfers and you even lost to them. So when you are trying to make fun of Mark you are actually insulting the women. I know its all in fun I just thought I would bring it to your attention.

So back to the question. I know some PDGA volunteers should know. Maybe Gary has something is some sort of database that he has done facts and figures on. :D

Unsure about the 1st female "frisbee" golfers, but i do know the 1st female PDGA member.

PDGA #004 Jo Cahow

What a piece of ..................... American history. :o

http://freestyledisc.org/forum/mar98/jocahow.jpg

http://www.admin.mtu.edu/~dkwalika/frisbee/jo.gif

:DWhat she said!!! I would like to know that as well,,,I think I'll check into this.

Thanks Hero.

Its all about the...... american history with you guys. :mad:

doh!!! my bad

[QUOTE]
Unsure about the 1st female "frisbee" golfers, but i do know the 1st female PDGA member.

PDGA #004 Jo Cahow

What a piece of ..................... American history. :o

I think Nelle and I were just talking about that sort of attitude towards women in the disc golf community. It can be very uncomfortable and un-nerving. Thank you for the pics,info, and making my point for me.

A couple of weeks ago I posted that it would be cool if a girl beat me, I believe it was in the Lago thread. Guess what, it happened. Guess, what else, it was COOL! Women got skillz now and the stereotypes are not accurate anymore guys.

Good work K.T. :D

Thank you for the pics,info, and making my point for me.




No problem. American history is important.

Mary Becker was #006.

Vanessa Chambers was the first hall of fame inductee in 1993. And here's a blurb on Patti Kunkle, 1996 inductee...

Patti Kunkle took disc golf to heart in 1975, and has nurtured it ever since. She played in the very first PDGA-sanctioned tournament, was a member of the first PDGA Board of Directors, and has played in every World Championship since 1983. Patti has won three Masters titles and has been honored with the Jim Olsen, Sr. Award as Senior Disc Golfer of The Year, and the Bob West Sportsman of The Year Award. A pivotal player in the development of disc golf in Georgia, Patti's influence has been felt nationwide as a leader in women's issues in the sport, driving for changes welcomed by both male and female golfers. Her perseverance to play is outshined only by her energy and enthusiasm for sharing the joy of the game she loves. Always positive, always patient, and always colorful to the eye and spirit, Patti Kunkle truly symbolizes the "heart" of disc golf.

Thank you Brian for the straight forward info!!! Where did you find that?

Here's some more info... http://www.innovadiscs.com/juliana/Women/stats.html

http://avenue.org/brdgc/Graphics/girlthro.jpghttp://www.disclife.com/photos/mem02_07.jpg

Just like little ballerinas. You see that form girls, now copy it.

uhhhhh,,,I wanna be like Nelle!!! I wanna float and glide through the air with ease like a little balerina!!! :D:D

Not me, them, copy them. :D

Just not one of them's attitude :cool:

Who would that be? :confused:

I am not getting pissy but I would like to explain something to all of the disc golf guys. When you use women to make fun of men you are really insulting the women. I hear it all the time "even Danielle beat you" or "you got beat by a girl" like that is the worst thing ever. Like women are the crappiest disc golfers and you even lost to them. So when you are trying to make fun of Mark you are actually insulting the women. I know its all in fun I just thought I would bring it to your attention.

"Girlie arm" is a common example...if you feel the need to be insulting [or self-deprecating] "noodle arm" works just fine...

Tita Ugalde #83 just got bought two mini's from the WVO,
I was amazed that a Woman with that low of a number was still playing! She says they call her "Titasuarus".

I'm still an outspoken proponent of Women DG and am working on keeping the cost of the WVO at half price for the Women.

On another note, 2005 Worlds has ordered 200 WVO minis with the worlds 5 logo on them, after much negotiation with the worlds TD, it looks like some of the mini's are going to be used as follows: All the Women who sign up for Worlds should get one, and the first 100 players who submit their entry fees should get one as well, the balance will be used as fund raisers.

And even though I'm and avid "mixed" player and champion the Women's DG cause, I still find myself saying "mark you throw like a girl" or something to that effect. I will try to become more aware of my actions and how they affect the ladies.

I'll continue to groom my young lady (Piper, 4 yr old)to be able to beat the snot out of any chauvinistic man out there!

MS

ok, 2 cents to throw in...

Firstly I would like to make important note of the fact that I have been bested in DG several times by women. I don't regard it as shameful to get beaten by Mrs. Reading or Mrs Steele (Juli for those that don't know the lady) or even LIttle Miss Paige Pierce. They are great golfers and a testament to the way women can play this sport.

On the other hand:
words are words. A device to convey an idea, intent, meaning whatever. They are just words. Using a common phrase to cut down a man (regardless of the words) is not an insult to a woman if it is not intended to be. Women may find it offensive (and sometimes rightfully so) but it is not an insult. it is not malicious. it is not degrading. Once on a course in Athens, TX I was bragging about Miss Pierce to a friend of mine. Paige was walking with our card and my friend chris had never seen her throw. I forget her exact age, but at about 12-13 (at the time) she could throw as far as your average intermediate male player... and with much more accuracy. Chris didn't believe it so he (in fun) challenged her to a drive contest. Paige hadn't thrown in quite some time, but she didn't warm up, she grabbed a valk and chunked it toward a basket. at least 320' and dead straight. Chris threw maybe 300'.... not as straight. anyhow, the moral of this story is that Paige's already big smile was even bigger when we told Chris that he just been outdriven... by a girl.

Sometimes good-natured ribbing can be offensive. Sometimes not to the intended target. The same exact words that may fill Miss Pierce with pride might offend Mrs. Vargas. The facts are that on average, (NOTE "on average") women do not throw as far as men. They (again, "on average") do not score as well as men. For a FW1 girl to beat a MA1 man is a rare (and very cool) occasion... and it by all means should be rubbed in that man's face. Congrats lady, you took him out :)

BTW Nelle... Although it may slip out in other places... I will not use that expression around you b/c i know it offends you. Even if I do not 100% agree with the reasoning, women in DG should get the respect they deserve.

*snip*


On the other hand:
words are words. A device to convey an idea, intent, meaning whatever. They are just words. Using a common phrase to cut down a man (regardless of the words) is not an insult to a woman if it is not intended to be.



I'm conflicted about this idea. I'm not sure I see a clear difference between deriding someones golf ability by saying, "You drive like a girl" and deriding someones intellectual ability by saing "You're as dumb as a(n) [insert racial group stereotyped as being dumb here]."

I believe that most people would view the second insult as blantantly racist, and so I'm not sure why the first one isn't perceived as blatantly sexist.

I could go on, but I've contributed to the thread drift enough :)

i suppose you are right to a certain degree... here's my take on your point:

Characterizing a racial group as dumb is just plain racist. It's not based on fact, and it is born from prejudice. Characterizing a women as "the fairer sex" is 100% true and based on fact. Men are physiologically built for physical prowess and strength has always been a measure of a man. Women are physiologically built for nurturing and beauty. The are characteristically weaker in strength and smaller in size. That's nature and those are just facts.

In DG, women overcome what they naturally lack in strength by using their intelligence and control of the disc. "Throwing like a girl" usually means that the man doesn't have the strength a man is expected to have... they're saying it's closer to what a woman is expected to have. No insult to women there.

To take your example to the other extreme: "That guy was as short as a stump".... is that an insult to stumps?

Look it boils down to this: Do you respect women? Do you respect them in the disc golf community? If your answers are yes then why all the discusion on how a woman "should" take an off-handed, ill thought out remark? We know the pysiological differences of men and women, thanks, but I don't really see your point when you are trying to "rib" a male player by saying he has the upper body strength of a woman, thus implying that we are weak. Get it? It's the implication that women are weak, regardless of evolution. Your question about the stump.....don't you have to have the ability of feelings before you can be insulted?

ok, 2 cents to throw in...

Firstly I would like to make important note of the fact that I have been bested in DG several times by women. I don't regard it as shameful to get beaten by Mrs. Reading or Mrs Steele (Juli for those that don't know the lady) or even LIttle Miss Paige Pierce. They are great golfers and a testament to the way women can play this sport.

On the other hand:
words are words. A device to convey an idea, intent, meaning whatever. They are just words. Using a common phrase to cut down a man (regardless of the words) is not an insult to a woman if it is not intended to be. Women may find it offensive (and sometimes rightfully so) but it is not an insult. it is not malicious. it is not degrading. Once on a course in Athens, TX I was bragging about Miss Pierce to a friend of mine. Paige was walking with our card and my friend chris had never seen her throw. I forget her exact age, but at about 12-13 (at the time) she could throw as far as your average intermediate male player... and with much more accuracy. Chris didn't believe it so he (in fun) challenged her to a drive contest. Paige hadn't thrown in quite some time, but she didn't warm up, she grabbed a valk and chunked it toward a basket. at least 320' and dead straight. Chris threw maybe 300'.... not as straight. anyhow, the moral of this story is that Paige's already big smile was even bigger when we told Chris that he just been outdriven... by a girl.

Sometimes good-natured ribbing can be offensive. Sometimes not to the intended target. The same exact words that may fill Miss Pierce with pride might offend Mrs. Vargas. The facts are that on average, (NOTE "on average") women do not throw as far as men. They (again, "on average") do not score as well as men. For a FW1 girl to beat a MA1 man is a rare (and very cool) occasion... and it by all means should be rubbed in that man's face. Congrats lady, you took him out :)

BTW Nelle... Although it may slip out in other places... I will not use that expression around you b/c i know it offends you. Even if I do not 100% agree with the reasoning, women in DG should get the respect they deserve.



I dont know how to say this without sounding rude but I will try my best. I think we all know words are words. Words are used everyday to offend people, dont downplay it. I was only trying to bring it to everyones attention that this happens to women everytime we play. Maybe Miss Peirce is tough skinned like we all have to be in this sport to survive, I find it sad that she is hearing this at such an early age. Yes I, like Paige, smile when I outdrive a guy. I may even laugh when someone says something like "he was out driven by a girl" because it is an accomplishment to out drive a guy, I know most men are stronger. But that doesnt mean those words are not offensive. I dont expect, nor do I want people to talk differently around me, I was only trying to make people aware of what they are actually saying. When someone says "wow, even Atwood beat you" you cant really think that is not offensive to Mark. You know it is. But I guess since I am a woman saying it, I sound like a whiney brat, or other words that I know have been used to describe me. Talk how you want to talk, disrespect who you want to disrespect, this is America. For you to say its not an insult if it is not intended to be is rediculous. That is one of the most ignorant things I have read on this board.

Dont forget these are mere "words" and you should not find anything I said offensive, right?

:D

Thank you Jo Cahow PDGA# 004
First female PDGA member




http://freestyledisc.org/forum/mar98/jocahow.jpg

Yes, i agree. Thank you Jo. Even your dirty, bare bottomed feet look great!

wow...thats a great pic

PIG :mad:

Thank you Jo Cahow PDGA# 004
First female PDGA member




http://freestyledisc.org/forum/mar98/jocahow.jpg

Yes, i agree. Thank you Jo. Even your dirty, bare bottomed feet look great!



I concur

It is one of the 2 photos that show up in a search for her name.

Dear PDGA discussion board programmer,

Please install a graemlin with there eyes rolling. I seem to be needing this more and more.

Thanks,
Danielle


and guys, you might have a chance with her now that she is in her 50's. PIGS.

Now I didn't say anything about her long legs, flowing hair or her great ....hands.
I like the oicture black and with a disc that looks like it follows her. :D

LMAO!

Just ruffling your feathers Nelle.

Obviously it worked.I hope you know that i mean no harm or disrespect. BTW, Are those cuTT-offs wearing her, or is she wearing the cuTT's? (The double TT's are for my NC friends. :D)

I hope this is just an error but the PDGA database lists her as a he...

Okay I have bit my lip long enough.

Nelle- you know I have mad respect for you, and I am quite impressed by your many accomplishments and your efforts in moving this sport forward. That being said, I think you are trying to have it both ways here. You said:

snip

I may even laugh when someone says something like "he was out driven by a girl" because it is an accomplishment to out drive a guy, I know most men are stronger. But that doesnt mean those words are not offensive.



Most men are stronger- you just said it. Would it not be as offensive or insulting if you heard a man say "you throw like most girls"

I think baldguy spelled it out pretty well. Men, on average, out perform women in athletic ability. To say that they are equal is just not true. Many, many competitions have been held that prove this.

If a women was to tell another women that she had hair on her lip like a man, do you think that would offend men? I dont, because, generally, men have more hair on their lip then women. Women have hair on their lips too, just generally not as much as men. Is this the same thing?

Not quite, because most women do not have the desire to have hairy lips. But many women do have the wish to compete at the same level as men in many sporting arenas, including disc golf. However- they are not the same. Embrace your differences- do not take offense to them. I think it all boils down to perception.

You said it yourself- outdriving a guy is an accomplishment- but if a guy comments on it, then it is suddenly offensive?

catch 22?

It is one of the 2 photos that show up in a search for her name.



You missed this one, Gary:

http://www.frisbee-freestyle.de/images/jo_cahow2.jpg

If a women was to tell another women that she had hair on her lip like a man, do you think that would offend men? I dont, because, generally, men have more hair on their lip then women. Women have hair on their lips too, just generally not as much as men. Is this the same thing?



That is just too funny!

You are correct sir, that one was not turned up by google when I searched.

nice socks.

http://www.frisbee-freestyle.de/images/jo_cahow.jpg

Okay I have bit my lip long enough.

Nelle- you know I have mad respect for you, and I am quite impressed by your many accomplishments and your efforts in moving this sport forward. That being said, I think you are trying to have it both ways here. You said:

snip

I may even laugh when someone says something like "he was out driven by a girl" because it is an accomplishment to out drive a guy, I know most men are stronger. But that doesnt mean those words are not offensive.



Most men are stronger- you just said it. Would it not be as offensive or insulting if you heard a man say "you throw like most girls"

I think baldguy spelled it out pretty well. Men, on average, out perform women in athletic ability. To say that they are equal is just not true. Many, many competitions have been held that prove this.

If a women was to tell another women that she had hair on her lip like a man, do you think that would offend men? I dont, because, generally, men have more hair on their lip then women. Women have hair on their lips too, just generally not as much as men. Is this the same thing?

Not quite, because most women do not have the desire to have hairy lips. But many women do have the wish to compete at the same level as men in many sporting arenas, including disc golf. However- they are not the same. Embrace your differences- do not take offense to them. I think it all boils down to perception.

You said it yourself- outdriving a guy is an accomplishment- but if a guy comments on it, then it is suddenly offensive?

catch 22?



Nix, I am in no way offended by anything you said. I would like to clarify something. I only have a problem when "you throw like a girl" is used to insult someone. I hear it everytime I am out on the course or play a mini, "even Danielle beat you". "wow, you let a girl beat you". Now think about it, if one guy said to another, "even Nix beat you" That statement is meant to insult the person that lost to you, but it is also insulting you. I didnt mean to make a big deal about it, seems like everything I say starts a flippin controversy. I am not the only women who hears this and I am not exagerating, I hear almost every single time I play with guys. I was only trying to inform guys what they are saying is actually not only an insult to the person you meant it to be, but also to the girl who is mentioned. And when someone says "you throw like a girl" it means a crappy short throw, it is never said to mean you throw with grace and beauty. We can drop this conversation now and let everyone post the most provacative pics of any girl who has ever played, yall can talk about their "socks" and "dirty feet." But I hope you dont wonder why more women dont play this sport.

the worst is-- "you only beat her by two strokes?!?!"... when the "her" happens to be six months pregnant it is truly insulting. at least she's a world champ though.

I have to agree with you Nelle...I am guilty of saying, to myself and when I putt low "quit putting like girl"
It feels wrong when I say it. I don't say it anymore!(thanks to Des cause she is a fine example of a good putter)
I think a lot of it is men have said things like that for years, because of the lack of female players. But with more more female players in the game and the quality of the female golfers going UP and Up! I think you will see less and less of men sticking their feet in their mouth.

I think I just shed a tear Vinnie. :DThanks for your understanding.

"you only beat her by two strokes?!?!"...



...plus the additional 'sin' of using 'strokes' instead of 'throws' or 'shots'

for real? :confused:

And we always will despite your efforts to educate us in the use of proper DG terminology.

don't worry. i just blamed the wind's effect on my frisbees, then went and took out my frustrations hollering obscenitys at nearby park goers. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

The 'stroke' thing and using 'barbeque' (except in an ad title like Joe's Barbeque) versus the correct 'barbecue' jump out at me. Freud has no answer for me.

so who's going to be the first female to stand up and demand to be treated equal at the next payout line?

I am going to go ahead and speak up against the vast majority of tournament directors I have seen and their payouts for women.

Most often women pay the same entry as their divison male counter parts. A good TD will have sponsors and will not depend on entry fees to pay out players. But the payouts are respective to the # of entrants in a division.

BUT....Am women are too often paid out in heavy overstable discs. Now I know, as a League TD, that disc sellers usually donate the discs that do not sell well, and in the Recreational community, those are heavy overstable discs.

I have a friend whose wife wins alot of Adv Womens tournaments here in the south. Unfortunantly she has to give her discs to her husband who has amassed 150 discs in the last year while only winning two Int. tournaments himself. And yes on some shorter wooded courses she beats him quite often. But he loves it when she beats him, because he knows that she is getting better and will hopefully move up. Because it is not how far you can throw, it is how well you can throw.

If the TD could take some time and hand pick a few discs for the ladies, I would imagine that would be very much appriecated by them. I hope this is not as big of a problem in the larger tournaments then it is in C-tiers and the non PDGA events that the south is notorious for.

Me on the other hand, send all your 180g Rocs and 175 Firebirds over here!

You are definately right about that. I have only one time, received a lighter weight disc (165). I have a trunk full of heavy discs. I give them away, or keep them as reminders of the tourney, depending on the stamp. I buy all the discs I actually use.

that's cool to but i was talking about the women in line first to pick their payout.

Outlaws has always ensured light plastic will be avalible for the ladies and Texas Womens Championship will only have a few heavies for the pay out :D
Frank....Look the meaning for the word "gentleman"

Chris Himing is one of the few TD's that allow women to pick there payout first, and he gets more women to his tournies. Treat them better, they will come. We have to deal with crap that you dont on the course. Thats why we get special treatment during payout. But if it makes you feel better, I will get in line with the rest of the group so I will get equal treatment, not special treatment. To tell you the truth I think the payout should be in the order of how you finished, winners, second, third, etc.

some of the things that have been pointed that guys have been doing are true and not fair or equal to females. but at the same time if you demand fair and equal treatment from us then it should be 100 % right or should it be 90 % of the time.did the females just hump the same course as the males in 100 degree heat? you bet, the line thing is just an example. females should be just as insulted by that as anything else that is not showing fairness or equality.

Frank because you insult me all the time you can go to the back of the line. :D

As for the ladies it will always be "ladies first" at Texas 10's and in my personal life. Not being politically correct that is just the way I like it.

Nelle did you get my email? :)

I would like to bring this to everyones attention, it took only 1 hour and 11 minutes after the original post for a picture with sexist remarkes to be posted. Somehow a thread about the first female disc golfer turned into a fight about womens rights. THESE ARE THE REASONS WE DONT HAVE MORE WOMEN STICK AROUND!!!!!

It takes tough women to stick to disc golf and I find it harder now than ever to ask women to join this sport. The new girls would not only be introduced to the sport, but introduced to the attitudes of many of the men. "Come on girls, ignore the sexist, rude comments and come on out" (insert rolling eyes here)

Thanks to the guys who have always treated me great. Brian, Chris, Vinnie and many more. Keep it up.

I know I sound really mean and ugly, and I know I sound like a big feminist but I am not. I am just a girl who loves this sport and would like to be treated like an athlete, not a peice of tail, or a subhuman disc golfer. I have a 5 year old daughter and would hate for her to have to deal with this stuff when trying to play a SPORT.

that's just it chris. i'm not trying to start trouble just wondering why females would not be insulted by that. i remember a previous thread where it was debated at length. my thoughts are equality would be 100% across the board. so why would anyone even take offense at the question.

As for the ladies it will always be "ladies first" at Texas 10's and in my personal life. Not being politically correct that is just the way I like it.



As it oughta be! One good reason is that if they didn't get in the front, all of the lightweight stuff would get scarfed up before they had a chance to pick. Most guys can find heavy stuff to fit in the bag, but like Nelle's trunk full, for most women the heavy plastic is decor only.

Whether it is politically correct, the right thing or the wrong thing I do not know. But what I do know is that I personally I open the door for women, buy flowers, and that kind of thing. It is the way I was brought up in Australia. I have never had a girl not like being treated nicely.

I lived in Japan and got to see how Japanese men treat women and that is not something anyone should ever experience, man or female.

I met and traveled in Europe a little in 1985 with Tami Pellican. She was from Florida and a world class player. She was a great player. I wonder if she is still involved?

She probably has tough skin too.

http://www.repubblica.it/gallerie/online/speciale/freestyle/8_g.jpg

Too bad i didn't make your list Nelle. My hello's, goodbye's and free discs to you were always sincere. The pics and posts were NOT meant to be sexist, or degrading,......just humorous. That's all.

Hey Nelle I just searched on Tami Pellicane from Florida and it turns out she lives in Dallas and is on the board of the WFDA. I will email her and she if I can convince her to come play a Texas 10.

She is a great person and player. She can share stories with you about how 10 of us shared a ship cabin from Stockholm to Helsinki in 1985 on the way to a disc golf tournament.

Yes, Tami Pellicane works for Frito Lay and lives near Carrollton, she has come out a few times in the past and watched some of the DG action at the Carrollton Open.

She use to (may still do it) run Disc events at company picnics.

I only played one round with her back in the late 80's. Yes, she beat me by 2 strokes at Skyline Park.

let her know about the TWC too.....we would love to have every women who has ever played the game.. We are trying to out do some guy from down under on his women attendance. :D

Why doesn't she still play? Seems like she was one of the best back in the 90s. What about her boyfriend/husband Nick something? Real nice guy and **** good golfer also.

Nelle, there was a time in the early 90s where there were about 6 pro ladies in Austin alone, all of them very good. I don't know where they all went.

They didn't allow Pros to play in Am then. Maybe we can get some formerly active women players back again if the word gets out?

This is something I have been wanting to ask the women that play disc golf at a higher level (pro and adv.). Do you have a history in athletics? Is it the history in athletics or your years of experience in disc golf that have led you to be equally aggresive in your throw as the men?

Here is what I am trying to say. I have seen Danielle and Laura Coffey throw and they seem to be just as aggresive in the run up and throw as the men. Other women I have seen (and this is in no way intended to be a knock on them) don't seem to be that aggresive in their throw.

The reason I want to know this is that I will soon be trying to teach a woman how to play and I want to know what should be expected as well what would help in teaching her. Since she has no athletic background I'm not expecting instance success. On the first day I was planning to just throw a disc back and forth to each other followed by some putting. Then if she seemed ready for it I was going to take her to the 5 short holes on the course and let her play those.

Any replies would be most appreciated. Thank you.

My Hero, you are still My Hero. ;)

Teach her how to putt and up shot first!! Thats the best. Don't tell her that she can throw from the "girls" tee box....let her play the pro boxes so that she will get better faster. Thats what happened to me anyways. I have to admit that I hated disc golf the first couple of times that I played, but I had an enormously patient teacher that could stand there and listen to the vituberations coming out of my mouth (for anyone who knows me,,,thats a lot!!) and still teach me the right way to throw,,which disc to throw ect. Here's a great one,,,teach her side arm and the toma as well!! I HAD the best teacher that taught me sidearm and it is awfully nice to have in the bag!!!! My teacher took me out to the hardest courses because he knows how aggresive I am in competing and it made me better!! Just my 10 cents cuz my 2 is free!! :D

Teach the fundamentals, just like you would with anyone else. Do not emphasis distance, no one can throw far untill they get the form right. Emphasis accuracy, releasing the disc at the correct angles, proper ways to hold the disc.

My Hero, you are still My Hero. ;)



Whew....and you're still my wonder woman!

PS. you have a PM

OK folks, here goes.
I've been reading this thread for a few days, and virtually every day I get ready to reply .. then hold off. As the messages have shifted on and off message, the discussion has been very interesting! There are several threads I want to reply too.

1) Homage to the past. I want to start by bringing up the names of some of the great female golfers of the past - these are the ones that were the players that I wished to emulate when I was just beginning to play and compete seriously. Tami Pellicane (great golfer, freestyler, DDC player, discathon ... you name it, she did it.) Judy Horowitz (I think she might be Judy Robbins today?), ditto. When I was just starting out, these two just kicked my butt. They are both shorter than me (and anyone who knows me thinks I'm pretty short for a disc golfer!) but they could sure throw the fool out of a disc. Tita Ugalde, of course. I think of her every time I throw counter clockwise z's because I learned how to it from her. Marie Jackson (I've always strived to have a mental game as strong as hers). I never knew Jo Cahow (she was, incredibly, even before my time!) but there were others who were distant stars in the firmament -- Suzanne from Boston, Michelle from Chicago, somone else from the Tidewater VA area whose name I can't remember, and others who were big names in the North American series. I read about these folks in the magazines of the times, and I was thrilled when I competed against them at NAS events ... even though I lost (DFL!) for years and years.

2) Small correction to someone who said they were on a boat to Helsinki in 1985 ... wasn't that Helsingborg? Great trip - WFDF golf in Helsingborg. My sons recently dug my disc from that tournament out of storage - an old Discraft phantom, once white, now yellowed with age ...

3) General comment to TDs. TDs should simply stock a few of the lighter discs - and they should let the Jrs and the women pick first. Its only common sense and courtesy. The testosterone-laden amateur men don't want that light stuff anyway. This particularly applies to Jrs as well as women. My kids (who are 12 and 14) love to earn free plastic, but what the heck are they going to do with a 180g Viper?

4) On the topic of tough skin, then or now. Every disc golfer needs tough skin. C'mon folks, there should be a level of common civility that should apply to all of us, across the board, whether we are speaking to each other online or in person. Boorish, puerile, run-at-the-mouth types seem to find it even easier to behave like boobs (pun intended) online than in person. But remember ladies, these are the same guys you go to school with, work with, live with, go to church with, share other hobbies and interest with ... surely you've seen it all before, been faintly amused, and decided that you've got better things to do than give these folks rent-free space in your head! On the flip side, there are lots of very nice members of the opposite sex who play disc golf. In fact, I've been married to one of them for nearly 20 years. (I met him at a golf tournament, and the rest is history.)

5) Athletics and attitude. First, I've got to confess that I took 15 years off. Completely off, where I didn't touch a disc except when moving from one house to another - except for a couple of years playing Ultimate. So I've only got two frames of reference - THEN and NOW (nothing at all in between!). I see a lot more athletic attitude and experience in young women now. Is it because of Title IX? Is it other social changes? Ultimate players who are getting too old or too sore to play Ultimate usually make great golfers. Many of the other younger women that I've met recently have competitive athletic backgrounds. I do believe that you have to have an athletic, and competitive, orientation to enjoy disc golf. And to succeed in PDGA events, you have to be able to concentrate for hours on end - throughout the weekend. That's just not everyone's cup of tea (that's partly why beginners and rec-level players need league and local play as a bridge into the seriously competitive tournaments -
and why those are good options for those who'd like to play but can't afford to spend entire weekends doing it).

6) "Donating" and "winning". Until I got back into disc golf, I would never have thought of the concept of "donating"! When I sign up for a road race, or a triathlon, or an open water swim, I'm signing up to do something I want to do in order to test myself. I sure as heck don't expect to win something of equivalent value as my "prize". From my perspective, that is one of the real odd things about disc golf today - seems that everyone expects to "get their money back".

7) Ratings-based divisions. Hear hear. What a great idea!!

8) Why don't more women play disc golf? Look around you and see how many women who might play have kids. You simply cannot have primarily responsibility for children and play serious disc golf at PDGA events.

9) Last words. If you've stuck with me this long!! I commend all of those in the disc golf community who have been playing and working at bringing disc golf to the wider world for many years - as a returning disc golfer I am very happily reaping the rewards of all your years of effort and commitment. When I last played seriously, there were 0 (yes, zero) golf courses in the entire state. My husband and I were the only disc golfers in S Carolina - except for other two guys from a very small town. When Harold Duvall moved to Rock Hill when he got married, he increased the population of disc golfers in SC by 25% ! My husband and I had the only pole hole in the state back in those days. In contrast to back then, now there is a full schedule of SC-based events ... reachable with a reasonable amount of travel. Lots of players, some world-class, and some beginners -- some women, of a range of abilities. I'd sure like to see more - men, women, and kids. And more courses. But to a returning golfer, this is a feast of plenty. Thanks to all of you who have made this possible!

Great post Vanessa, very inspirational.

I'm not sure who the first Woman disc golfer was but when there is a thread for the first monkey that played disc golf......I BETTER BE THE FIRST YOU MENTION! ;)

2004 Octoberfriz AM CHAMP!

King Kong BIITTCHES! :o

2) Small correction to someone who said they were on a boat to Helsinki in 1985 ... wasn't that Helsingborg? Great trip - WFDF golf in Helsingborg. My sons recently dug my disc from that tournament out of storage - an old Discraft phantom, once white, now yellowed with age ...



Hi Vanessa. I was the guy that posted about the boat ride. It was actually Stockholm to Helsinki. It was after the WFDF Worlds in Helsingborg Seppo from Finland invited a group of Aussies and a few others including Tami to his 1st Annual Seppo Niemien Classic in Helsinki. What a great trip and experience.

I was a 16 year old Aussie and was having the experience of a lifetime. I hope to get in touch with Tami again after all these years as she is now in Texas where I ended up. Who are you? Sorry I can't remember.

Good memories.

Thanks
Chris

http://www.innovadiscs.com/juliana/Fame/1993.html

The first best female disc golfer I can remember was Michelle Marini.(sp). This was in the late seventies. Tita Ugalde plays now and played then. She would probably be the real authority to ask as she has competed with the best women since the mid seventies.

Thanks Chuck for the info and Thank You Vanessa for your perspective.

Yes, thanks Vanessa, that post was fun to read!

I am not getting pissy but I would like to explain something to all of the disc golf guys. When you use women to make fun of men you are really insulting the women. I hear it all the time "even Danielle beat you" or "you got beat by a girl" like that is the worst thing ever.



When I was starting out, I considered it quite an achievment to beat the local Advanced/pro women. When I was a decent advanced player/lousy pro I regularly compared my scores to the top women like Julianna and Elaine. I considered it an achievment to beat them. When I was at my peak, I was disapointed in my performance when I wasn't beating them, now that I'm on the decline, I'm sure I'll be comparing my scores to the top women again.

I don't mean that as an insult, I just use that as a performance gauge. It's pretty rare that I can compare myself to Climo and Barry, or even Hammock and Lissaman. So I go with the next best thing. Don't be insulted, take it as a complement that "we" don't like losing to "you".

When I was a teen involved in long distance running I used womens' times as an incentive towards realistic goals, not a 'pride/shame' kinda thing.

Miki Gorman and Jaqueline Hansen [both Marathon record setters from the local Culver City area], and later Joan Samuelson [ni Benoit] were my emulatable 'heros', just-as-much-as, if-not-more-than the more popular Frank Shorter, Bill Rogers, and later, Alberto Salazar.

Back in the early 90s, I was shooting the same scores as Elaine King, World Champ at the time. The top women have been getting a little better and they continue to be a good benchmark for me even though I'm spotting them 15-20 years. The top women currently average one throw better than in 1998 when ratings started. But there are many more of them near that level, so solid progress is there.

Yeah but the women aren't even close to as good as Julianna was a couple years ago. :eek:

6) ... I sure as heck don't expect to win something of equivalent value as my "prize". From my perspective, that is one of the real odd things about disc golf today - seems that everyone expects to "get their money back".

7) Ratings-based divisions. Hear hear. What a great idea!!




I just LOVE IT when wise old-schoolers speak up. LOVE IT! :) :)

Yeah but the women aren't even close to as good as Julianna was a couple years ago.




WRONG! They are better than ever, the women I get to play with ;) are getting closer and closer to be able to play with or against the men.

Juliana has posted the best set of ratings of any woman to date topping out at 968 in 2002. Here's her history:
http://www.pdga.com/tournament/player_ratings_history.php?PDGANum=7438&year=2004
I believe Des is the only other woman to reach a posted rating 950 one time. The top women are currently in the high 940s. A few have had rounds rated over 1000. There are about 30 women with ratings over 900 compared with about 5 in 1998 when ratings started.

I am curious about something. I have noticed that there seems to be around 100 points difference in the ratings of the men and women. What I mean by that is my rating is 775. When I play with a guy who is rated around 875, we seem to play on the same level. This might not make sense, and I am not sure why, but I am curious about it. I have looked somewhat into figuring out ratings. I mean I think I have a good understanding of them, but haven't "studied" them. Could it be that when more women become involved, their ratings will begin to rise?

That 100 points difference between men and women is real and represents about 10 throws difference per round. Having more women shouldn't have any impact on the ratings calculations although having more of them might mean several more rounds might get ratings because there are enough players playing that course layout to give it a rating.

One thing for the women's group to consider is whether we should adjust the course par rating for women the way the LPGA does it in golf. As it stands right now, women's scores for a big event might be shown as +25 when Barry finishes at -15. By adjusting to a par reference for women at 900 instead of 1000 like the men, the top women scores would be shown as under par instead of always over par. In this example, the top woman would also be shown as about -15.

Ok, I take back that I have a good understanding. I think you just went over my head a little there. Never mind. I am just tired and can't think right now. I'll study it some other time on the ratings thread.

*Back to Early Female Discgolfer's*

WRONG! They are better than ever, the women I get to play with ;) are getting closer and closer to be able to play with or against the men.



No offense Kevin but you're not paying attention. :D

Here I found an old post http://www.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?Board=Ratings%20&%20Skill-based%20Competition&Number=200599&Searchpage=0&Main=120718&Search=true&#Post200599 -- scroll down to the women.

Note the dominance of Julianna in 2000, 2001, and 2002. If you don't believe in ratings than just look at the scores and the courses or the fact that she CASHED at the USDGC which no woman has even come close to since. Don't say its getting harder to cash because its not and I think Chuck will back that up. :D/msgboard/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

I think what Kevin means that there are more women who are playing at a higher level than ever before. I think the fact that Juli isn't a lock to win every event is proof of that. It used to be a 2 women race. Now it's wide open.

Thanks Anita,

Exactly what I was trying to say. There isn't just one or even two that are playing at a high level there are 6 or 7 now that are playing at a high level, and there are more and more starting to knock on the door of highly competetive disc golf.

Soon there will be a good reason to start an LPDGA that is just for LADIES and/or transgendered disc golfers like DAVE WISE aka TwoPutt :o :D:eek:

Okay cool. :) :)

I guess I just got confused at the part where I said the women weren't as good as Julianna was 2 years ago and you said WRONG! :D:eek: :D

I'll give a shout out to some of the early women that I looked up to as golfers back in my good old days....

I remember the very first womens event I went to was the Bud Light in Waterloo, IA. They had the women's big guns of the time, Elaine, Becky Powell, Andi Lehman. I got to hang out in the hot tub at the host hotel with them. Pretty sweet! Kelli Hughes (who won) sure had an arm! I have had the pleasure of golfing with Lyn Warren and Tracey Nations. There are a number of women who I wish I could have played with.

I would be remiss if I didn't mention my old Am Worlds Doubles partnter, Julianna. We shot a whole bunch of rounds together back when NO ONE gave a toot about am women.

Ah, memories.... we will enjoy them....

Thanks Anita,

Exactly what I was trying to say. There isn't just one or even two that are playing at a high level there are 6 or 7 now that are playing at a high level, and there are more and more starting to knock on the door of highly competetive disc golf.

Soon there will be a good reason to start an LPDGA that is just for LADIES and/or transgendered disc golfers like DAVE WISE aka TwoPutt :o :D:eek:



I don't care what division it is, as long as I don't have to play with Mitchell or Furdog and I get to play from the red tees. :D

My biggest female role model (in life and disc golf) is my mother, Melanie Clark #2324. She began playing in the late 70's on the college team at Western Kentucky University.
But as is the problem with many female disc golfers, family takes precedent. When it came down to traveling to tournaments and playing with my dad, four kids are alot to handle.
Casual disc golf is family oriented, but playing competitively is honestly a no-kids avenue. Lynne Warren has written about the need to make tournaments more family- feasible, but so little has been done.
Look at the top touring pro women. How many of them have kids?
I wish my mom and I could get out and play more. It is one of my biggest goals to win the BellSouth Open, which she won in '81 and '83. Meanwhile I'm happy to encourage the other girls on the current WKU team (yup, like mother like daughter) to keep playing even when the guys are immature and rude. I know thier sexism is for the most part socially constructed. But that does not excuse it.
I am not afraid to say I am a feminist, which doesn't mean I am a lesbian or hate men (a common misconception). A feminist is an equalist.
Celebrate the women in disc golf (past, present and future)!

I have noticed something similar and I think it is playing with people that are good,,,you step up your game. Come on now Baby,,,,I'm dying to see that pic from the last time I was down there!!! WE will see you all down there for the ice bowl!!! I hear that its gonna be really great out for us that weekend!! Did you and Jimbob reserve your room yet? Are you just gonna camp?? Talk to you soon!! Who's gonna bring the digital for this weekend? See you soon!!! :D

M and N - Get over it !! *eyes rolling*

m and n back away from the keyboard.......Jeannie doesn't have the facts and should try to avoid ASSumption

and here's your sign!! :DPlayed the kitty yesterday, gettin ready for TWC! I think we can set a record for women attendance! I'm gonna play rec and see how bad I get stomped! It's all in great fun and I can't wait to see how the kitty is gonna look after all the men get out there and renovate it!! I'm gonna start bringing trash bags out there to clean up and have a place for the trash to go other than on the ground. I am wondering about some of the tee boxes,,,concrete might be in order due to heavy down pours and the fact that most of the tee box will get washed away. I know that Grunion has brought this up as well and I thought it made a lot of sense,,,but I am not in the construction business!! I am very excited to play in TWC!! :D:D

good and we are excited to have you at the TWC.

And what ASSumptions should I try to be avoiding?

Danielle, this is Ginger, I sent you a PM, I need some info on starting a Womens club. I taught a class of 30 to 40 outdoor Town Women, 10 came out to play a round for the first time and were great! Plus if anyone can tell me who to contact about the EDGE program. Thanks my Email [email protected]

kwel to hear ginger....now make plans for the TWC

Hey Ginger :)

I am glad to hear that you got to show the women around. Last time I saw you at the Temple mini you were excited about it. I will be at your Waco course on Sunday. Maybe will see you out there!

-Keela :D

I will be at the Texas womens. I am almost recovered from a Car accident where a 94 year old woman totaled my town car :(. SHE was driving a truck, I now drive a BIGGER truck :D
Call me on my cell phone 254-498-6152 for Sunday I need to play!

good to hear you are ok .
And I challenge you to bring 2 ladies with you to the TWC :D

I am glad that you are good and recovering! When it comes to lil 94 year old ladies...well....a bigger truck might be better :D. Will give you a call on Sunday and let you know when we are going to be out there.

Ginger, glad to hear you are okay.

LauraQ
so whats up with the big D ladies.
Who all is making it to the TWC. or would it better said who is not making it?
oohhh ginetta ....I can't hear you.
Durning the paul giles event last year I had the pleasure I brainstorming the idea of a women's only event with some you Ladies from the big d area.
Well hear you go !!!!

We will reply soon. That is a little over two months away. I can't be sure if I personally will be able to do it at this time, but will try and will have a definite answer soon. Geez, I just signed up for the Big Show at Cedar Hill this week and that is just two weeks away.

It is a little known fact that Vinnie was once a female role model. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

I just don't want to hear
" if I would of known"
" I had other plans"
My question is " why would a female not look forward to this and make it a priority'
And so you ladies know......If a guy is keeping you from attending this....let me know and I will send SWAT. If you ladies can puTT up with the male need to golf. Us guys should support the ladies decision to attend the TWC.

hear hear!!! :D

If you ladies can puTT up with the male need to golf. Us guys should support the ladies decision to attend the TWC.



Amen Vinnie!! :D

The question remains: will you allow the rec division in a women only event? If so, I might have to come caddy for my lady... 2004 LOSO Rec Women champ :D

ALL DIVISIONS and yes bring her and yes caddy for her

I will run a rec only event sometime and I will call it
"a mini" :)

Tatum O'Neal is PDGA #50

Vanessa,

Thanks for that excellent post! Very worthwhile to read.

Are you THE Vanessa... Vanessa Chambers?

(1993 Hall of Famer. http://www.innovadiscs.com/juliana/Fame/1993.html)