This is an idea I have been thinking about. Currently we have hard caps on the intermediate and rec divisions. If you are over the rating cap you must move up. What would members think about soft caps on the Advanced divisions, namely Advanced Men, Advanced Women and Am Masters? The idea would be that if you are rated above a certain number, most logically the same number we are using for "Pros Play Am," you can no longer compete for a payout in that amateur division at B, C and D tier events. You get to pay the "true-am" entry fee if you want to play in that division for points and trophies. Or you can play in a division with a cap that is higher than your rating, or you can play pro.

It seems to me that this is consistant with the direction our format is evolving. It is fair to any player who has a legitimate reason for not moving up. It would only have a bearing on a small number of players.

Minnesota has been a backer of the "trophy only" option for Ams playing in Pro (all ages) but it's currently not a promoted option by the PDGA. We have been allowing Ams to play in Pro for trophies only in MN events at 1/3 the Pro entry fee. Adding the soft cap suggestion would just be one step farther in this direction.

You CANT force anyone to play pro and you also CANT take away the payout they would recieve for playing in the highest amature division available. In any other sport if someone just wants to dominate the amature division they are allowed to.

This would be completely and utter BS if they decided to do this. We would be the only sport in the world who FORCED people to become proffesionals and that is just NOT FAIR AT ALL.

Do those dominating other Amateur venues make anything near what we do?

Until we start weaning ourselves off of the plastic, I have no problem forcing people to choose to play pro or play for trophies.

My dad is playing in a AMATURE ball golf tournament this weekend and JUST for entering they are getting the newest callaway club on the market and the have a chance to win up to i believe 700 dollars in merchandise. They also get a nice dinner i believe ALL three nites of the tournament. Then an awards banquet the last night.

I would say thats a little better then what we get at tournaments.

You can force anyone to turn pro. You just CANT DO IT. I would stop being a member of the PDGA if they ever decided to FORCE people to turn pro. I also believe alot of other people would do the same thing.

In other sports, you can dominate the amateur ranks if you wish, but you don't get payout like you do in disc golf. You get a trophy and a handshake, maybe an embroidered jacket. Even in our sister sport ball golf, it is stated in the association rules what limits of merchandise you can accept.

The day may come soon enough when disc golf matures to where Pros compete for cash and Ams for trophies and a handshake. No plastic. No baskets. Will you be ready? Take your pick.

Will you be willing to play for a really good players pack and trophies?

John did you just read my post or not???

My dad competes on the amature level of our sister sport and have for many many years. They DO NOT and i repeat DO NOT just get a trophy and a handshake. These tournaments have great prizes and you almost ALWAYS get something great just for playing in them.

What you're saying then is you'd be fine if everyone in Advanced got a really nice player pack equal to the entry fee value (or better) and just trophies like ball golf. I think that's what we're talking about for trophy only play. The entry fees could vary but the money would primarily go toward the value of the player pack and the meals included for everyone. That sounds like the parallel with BG.

I agree with Pimp.Its not fair to force anyone to play in a division they dont feel they belong in.Sand bagging has been made acceptible on the highest Am level.I dont understand how you can say its ok for a lower rated player that has previously played open to fall back to advanced.I am curious to hear grumblings form the ADV players who lost a tourney to a player who has played open but has a rating that allows him to play advanced.I dont think it will happen much since most top level advanced players could compete in open, yet want to sandbag and take home stacks of plastic instead of becoming mediocre.You cant blame the people that are on the fine line and now will keep playing ADV to try to win a AM title.Allowing players with a near 1000 rating to play ADV in the largest tourney of the year opened the door to years of bagging.Regarding Am payouts, I think its stupid to play for just a trophy,Ams should be paid in plastic if they play open and want to retain AM status.They should pay what the pros pay just not recieving cash.That way borderline am/pros can compete in the open division and not walk away empty handed in the event they should cash.I understand that this was the principal for Pro2 { I think?} but I played at no tourneys where this was offered.Id play open for plastic until I thiught I could compete for cash and am sure many others would.Although,despite the extra money added in pro, im sure Pros would ***** and moan about having to play with non-world class players and how they sucked up thier game, unless of course they won.

I guess you missed the part where twice he mentioned that his dad plays amatuer ball golf tourneys and gets great player packs and a merch payout to go with the trophy.

Thanks Rhett :D

Oh yeah, I forgot. Since we're looking at equivalents here, I think it would be perfectly fine if our Advanced players also won prizes whose value was based on the same percentage to our pro prizes as the am prizes are to pro prizes in ball golf.

So your saying that if the entry fee is 65 bucks then im going to get 65 in plastic and what not before i even play and THEN your going to pay me out for placing well also. Sounds like a good idea to me.

How do you propose you will do this???

Oh yeah, I forgot. Since we're looking at equivalents here, I think it would be perfectly fine if our Advanced players also won prizes whose value was based on the same percentage to our pro prizes as the am prizes are to pro prizes in ball golf.


I love the Nick-esque way you change the subject to an unrelated and previously un-discussed tangent whenever the debate isn't going your way.

If there was no advanced tourney payouts then there would be no tourneys.Id rather play leauges then pay 15$ for some stupid trophy.Show the ADV division some respect.

Steve,

Here's a handle. Go ahead and feel free to fly off it whenever you like.

You use the example of ball golf. What about softball, bowling, rodeo, skiing, or any other sport that people compete in on an amateur basis? Trophies, trophies, trophies and a good time. You wanna win something more? Then go Pro.

No one ever said that anyone was going to be forced to "go Pro." Bruce was merely suggesting an alternative.

What's going to happen to you if Michigan ever enforces its gambling laws in regard to disc golf tournaments? Are you going to move to another state? That's kinda like your reaction to this suggestion. "I'm gonna quit the PDGA!"

BTW. I did read your post. I was replying to your first post as you were blasting away with "Daddy's scenario" and they crossed paths.

Hope you find a ride. It's a long way from Vegas to Phoenix. And there's rattlesnakes.

:)

Exactly. People would just start throwing their own unsanctioned tournys that had CASH payouts and the PDGA would suffer. Im sure as hell not going to pay 150 to play Open in a NT event that I KNOW I WONT CASH at but i will however pay 65 to play an A Tier in Advanced but not if there is no payout.

This would be the worst decision on the list of bad decisions by the PDGA. The list would be as follows
Pros playing in AM
No AM payouts
2 Meter rule
then a bunch of other random unimportant stupid things.

Steve,

Here's a handle. Go ahead and feel free to fly off it whenever you like.

You use the example of ball golf. What about softball, bowling, rodeo, skiing, or any other sport that people compete in on an amateur basis? Trophies, trophies, trophies and a good time. You wanna win something more? Then go Pro.

No one ever said that anyone was going to be forced to "go Pro." Bruce was merely suggesting an alternative.

What's going to happen to you if Michigan ever enforces its gambling laws in regard to disc golf tournaments? Are you going to move to another state? That's kinda like your reaction to this suggestion. "I'm gonna quit the PDGA!"

BTW. I did read your post. I was replying to your first post as you were blasting away with "Daddy's scenario" and they crossed paths.

Hope you find a ride. It's a long way from Vegas to Phoenix. And there's rattlesnakes.




Actually i would just play in tournaments outside of MI or i would move to another state where i could play tournaments that had payouts. I would prolly move to NC as much as i hate to say that. Thats not flying off the handle. I would not renew my membership with the PDGA if there was no amature payout.

By the way Bowling is completely different because they have diff divisions of PRO that you can play in and still win money. All we have is the OPEN division. If we had a division just below the open Division that i had an choice to play in like say a 950-980 rated division where i feel that i could compete and have a chane to win cash then i would play in that division but with the amount of tournaments i play im sure as HELL will not just jump into the OPEN division and play against Cam Todd and Shweb and Kenny and Barry and Brinster and McCoy when i KNOW i cant compete with them.

That is not flying off the handle. Its how i feel and the truth. If they got rid of AM payouts i would not renew my membership to the PDGA and i think there are others that feel the same way i do.

Not changing the subject at all. The Am payouts in ball golf are capped at some level which I thought was $500 but I haven't checked whether inflation has boosted that number. It's a small number compared with payouts for their pros. You also have the nature of equipment requirements in each sport. If being able to include equipment like a club in their player packs makes sense, it would only make sense for us to include a disc in ours. By golly we do. If they win clubs for prizes, by golly our players should win a disc or two. And they do, but much, much more, too.

I would prolly move to NC

god help us.... i am suddenly overcome by waves of nausea.

All we have is the OPEN division. If we had a division just below the open Division that i had an choice to play in like say a 950-980 rated division where i feel that i could compete and have a chane to win cash then i would play in that division



Ah, but we do have that division and they currently win plastic coins. I don't think the PDGA will ever take away the option to win prizes and merchandise in that 915-955 range. There are too many players there who love it and it helps with the event finance structure that's been built up. However, just like your bowling example, if you played in that second level division for a while and your average got high enough, are you saying you would quit bowling if you had to move up?

I think that's what the soft cap idea is saying. You need to move up or just play for trophies once your skill gets to a certain level.

My dad is playing in a AMATURE ball golf tournament this weekend



What's the entry fee? I assume that covers cart and greens. Add those if not.

Not changing the subject at all. The Am payouts in ball golf are capped at some level which I thought was $500 but I haven't checked whether inflation has boosted that number. It's a small number compared with payouts for their pros. You also have the nature of equipment requirements in each sport. If being able to include equipment like a club in their player packs makes sense, it would only make sense for us to include a disc in ours. By golly we do. If they win clubs for prizes, by golly our players should win a disc or two. And they do, but much, much more, too.



The thing is they pay 400 to play in this tournament. Then they get a 400 dollar club and im sure some balls and tees and what not. THEN they can win upto i think now its $700 in merchandise so essentialy if they win they can receive $1100 dollars in merchandise.

So now lets do a disc golf tournament. I pay 65 dollars to enter. You guys give me 65 in discs. Then i play and win. So i win 113.75 dollars since 400 goes into 700 1.75 times. So then i could receive $178.75 AND lunch and an awards banquet AND a kick ***** trophy. Other then the tournaments where the top pay out is a basket i dont think i have EVER won that much in merch. I dont even think i got that much merch for 21st place at WORLDS. I would have to say that we dont even pay out as much as amature ball golf does :D

My dad is playing in a AMATURE ball golf tournament this weekend and JUST for entering they are getting the newest callaway club on the market and the have a chance to win up to i believe 700 dollars in merchandise. They also get a nice dinner i believe ALL three nites of the tournament. Then an awards banquet the last night.

I would say thats a little better then what we get at tournaments.

You can force anyone to turn pro. You just CANT DO IT. I would stop being a member of the PDGA if they ever decided to FORCE people to turn pro. I also believe alot of other people would do the same thing.



Really? A free club? The newest Calloway Driver out is the Big Bertha Titanium 454 Driver, which goes for a little over 300, pretty nice layer's pack for an ameteur golf tournament, wich we had some of those around here

That'd be like everyone at a C-Teir getting a 2001 USDGC CE Roc in their player's pack! I wouldn't mind that!

god help us.... i am suddenly overcome by waves of nausea.



Whats the matter Jeff. You afraid ill PIMP on your hoes :eek: and your have some more competition on the courses down there :D

By the way thanks for the 20 bucks that you paid me for whipping you at worlds :eek:

and your have some more competition on the courses down there :D

no, just that having you and mTl in the same state would be, to say mildly, overwhelming. it would be like a turd covered in burning animal hair.... you're nostrils have been trained to withstand the pooh somewhat, but the burning hair on top of it would be too much. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif


By the way thanks for the 20 bucks that you paid me for whipping you at worlds :eek:

no problem, too bad i didn't bet you at bowling green last year. i could have just bet you a $1 for every place i beat you by. :eek:

no problem, too bad i didn't bet you at bowling green last year. i could have just bet you a $1 for every place i beat you by. :eek:

:o

That would have been alot of money :o

You CANT force anyone to play pro and you also CANT take away the payout they would recieve for playing in the highest amature division available. In any other sport if someone just wants to dominate the amature division they are allowed to.

This would be completely and utter BS if they decided to do this. We would be the only sport in the world who FORCED people to become proffesionals and that is just NOT FAIR AT ALL.



In college I had a roommate whose boyfriend was an in-line speed skater (before I had even heard of in-line skates) in California. He also played hockey for a college (not in California). After he won the biggest yearly Amateur race he was forced to turn pro. He opted to drop out of in-line racing since hockey was paying his tuition. I know this is just annecdotal information, but I know that not every sport lets everyone play at the amateur level indefintely.

At Worlds, your funny money was worth even less, since you had to pay extra for using it.I bought a 25$ disc on Friday at the BBQ, then paid 30$ for almost the same disc, because I was using funny money.After bringing this up I recieved a voice mail on my personal cell from Todd Briener to explain how I actually got paid more than I should have.If I couldve used my funny money at Walgreens Id have gotten a better deal and they are over retail.Its not like the PDGA, disc dealers and clubs dont benefit from large advanced payouts, considering in most cases you are actually paying more for the plastic you win, as oppossed to outright paying for it.I have been at more than one tourney where the organizers charged you more for the plastic they paid out.A 60$ payout equals 4 champion discs at most tournaments, and I have no problem with that as long as the money is going to the club, but I would never pay 15$ for a disc if I was using cash, and in very few places would I expect too.

A 60$ payout equals 4 champion discs at most tournaments, and I have no problem with that as long as the money is going to the club...


I would have no problem with that even if the money was going to the TD.

Although Im not against TDs being paid, Id prefer to know I was helping a club,rather than paying someone to run a tournament.TDs do tons of unnoticed work and dont get nearly as much credit as they deserve but anyone can become a TD and with a paycheck as incentive theres no telling how many tournaments will spring up, saturating the playing field and attendence to other out of town tourneys.I think its great there is becoming so many tournaments but it sucks when your hoping for a full field and everybody stays in town to play another C tier, instead of attending a long running tourney that has 20 people and talks of not running it again.I guess for A and Supertour events I can see TDs benefiting as well.Id had no problem with the Worlds staff recieving compensation, but the fact they volunteered for a event that injected 1 million dollars into the local economy speaks volumes.

I think TDs should get paid :D They provide a KICK ACE service for us and i think they should be compinsated for the time they spend doing it. I dont think we can take away competing for prizes though. That would be the worst idea EVER in the history of worst IDEAS. The amature divisions make up the majority of the PDGA and if you take away thier chance to compete for prizes i dont think they will respond in a positive way.

I would have replied earlier but I had to do some actual work today. Your gain is Mr. Borretti's loss. Hopefully he is not reading this in prison.

O.k., so we have established that Mills doesn't want anyone to be forced to go pro, and he doesn't want flat payout tournaments and he is fine with TDs making some green. Me too. None of that was on the table, but it is interesting information.

What I'm talking about is a rule that says, "O.k., now that you are an amateur disc golf demi-god, Scooter, you can go pro or you can quit taking prizes in amateur, except at the biggies" or, "O.k., now that you are passably good for a fat old man, Bruce, you can play Advanced with Mills and Dotcom, or play pro, but if you play Am Master you can't play for Mitch Wallace's prizes, except at the biggies."

So I'm not talking about kicking anyone out of their preferred division or banning anyone from taking prizes ever again, which are hard cap concepts that already exist for the intermediate and rec divisions. I'm talking about a soft cap with options and exceptions and countervailing benefits.

As a player I would be fine with the rule I described in my original post because it would make me feel like I could play am master if I wanted to, and I suspect Scooter might feel the same way. Would Rhett? I would be fine with this rule as a TD because the current 2005 "true am" thing is pretty close to a financially neutral proposition.

So I am curious what the objections would be. I'm not taking seriously Mills' threat not to re-up. He played six or seven members-only events last year. I don't see him not re-upping out of protest over Scooter not being allowed to win prizes at B and C tiers. Seriously, this rule would never impact Mills because he will take pro cash sometime while still rated in the 940s and be rated in the 960s in two years max. He is too young, healthy and driven to be an am for long.

Actually, Bruce's proposal makes a lot of sense. By the time most people can get to a 955 rating, they'll have so much crap they won in their garage that they won't mind paying less to play and not winning more stuff.

So I am curious what the objections would be. I'm not taking seriously Mills' threat not to re-up. He played six or seven members-only events last year. I don't see him not re-upping out of protest over Scooter not being allowed to win prizes at B and C tiers. Seriously, this rule would never impact Mills because he will take pro cash sometime while still rated in the 940s and be rated in the 960s in two years max. He is too young, healthy and driven to be an am for long.



First off i would like to say thanks Bruce for saying that about me. I am flattered that you think i am such a talented young kid. Second i would like to say that i guess i missread what you were trying to say. I thought you were going to take prizes away totally from ALL the AM division and since a majority of the PDGA is ams i didnt think that would fly to well. Sorry about the confusion and thanks for the compliment :D

I would agree except that the cutoffs are a little low, especially for Adv Master (if it is 915).

I agree with Gary. I think there's about a 15 point offset that should be used for the soft cap proposal. Rating breaks for Pros playing in Am would remain where they are. But the soft cap for Advanced would be 970 where they are forced to either enter pro or play 'trophy only' in Advanced. For Advanced Masters, the soft cap would be 930.

I agree with Gary. I think there's about a 15 point offset that should be used for the soft cap proposal. Rating breaks for Pros playing in Am would remain where they are. But the soft cap for Advanced would be 970 where they are forced to either enter pro or play 'trophy only' in Advanced. For Advanced Masters, the soft cap would be 930.



And thus the last vestiges of even the illusion of any amateur class will vanish.

This doesn�t seem convoluted to you Chuck? Why not just have some real amateur divisions within a real amateur class? The idea of pros playing in amateur divisions SHOULD BE offensive in the extreme. It would be to me if we had a real amateur division and class.

The idea of pros playing in amateur divisions SHOULD BE offensive in the extreme. It would be to me if we had a real amateur division and class.




And of course we don't. Our regular pros and advanced groups are two sides of the semipro coin: metal on one side and plastic on the other.

The idea of pros playing in amateur divisions SHOULD BE offensive in the extreme. It would be to me if we had a real amateur division and class.




And of course we don't. Our regular pros and advanced groups are two sides of the semipro coin: metal on one side and plastic on the other.


So what's with the differentiation? Why should ex-pros be systemically put at a disadvantage?

I find all of this division jumping in bad taste. I think everyone should have to declare there division for the year and stick with it no matter. They can change it next season if they qualify.

You are preaching to the choir. The 'Pro in Am' option was as far as the Board would go in the time frame. Kind of like what happened with the 2m non-rule change.

And though I am being agreed with on the rating levels, I don't support forcing players to play Pro. And I think 940 and 970 would be better. If you make it 930 you will take away all of my competition.

I hate to say this but why does the guy who wins am need 175$ in plastic? Good grief, I'm only an 862 rated player but I bump up to MA2 just because I already have more discs than I can possibly throw. I don't understand why it's always the ADV folks complaining about possibly losing payouts. Come on guys, donate that payout to the rec women or something!

I would support this if the cut-off is 970 or if these adv players could enter the pro division at a lower "trophy only cost". :D:D

You can never have to much plastic. Plus if you have more discs then you could possibly throw then start selling the ones you wont throw so you can pay your entry fees. Simple as that. More and more tournaments are offering clothing and hats and shirts and other cool disc golf items in the merch so that you dont have to get just plastic. I have about 4 or 5 back ups for EVERY disc in my bag. Those discs i am going to keep forever. If i get a huge payout i dont buy discs that i will throw because i already have a ton of those. I buy discs that i think other people will want to buy off me. Doesnt really matter though because in a year or so i will only be playing for Cash.

Yep, that's a sign that payouts and entry fees need to be cut.

Why is that??? Like i stated in the other thread. Our payouts arent even close to as good as our sister sports amature payouts.

And our entry fees aren't yet that high either thankfully. Plus, in most of our "sister" sports, amatuers don't get that kind of windfall.

If your playing in an Amatuer division, looking to place so you can win plastic to sell, then move to Open. Cut out the middle step....

But cutting the middle step often means cutting the chance of winning any prizes.

Just ask Pizza God. Having the opportunity to play Adv, but opting to play Open because it was a C-Tier. Would have won Adv by 2, but was one stroke out of the cash in Open.

But cutting the middle step often means cutting the chance of winning any prizes.

Just ask Pizza God. Having the opportunity to play Adv, but opting to play Open because it was a C-Tier. Would have won Adv by 2, but was one stroke out of the cash in Open.



"Would" being the key word. Different division. Different outcome. Would he have been pushed as hard? Hard to tell for sure. Matt Hall "would" have won Open by 2 at MacGregor. In reality? Maybe, maybe not.

So you think we should be promoting this behavior? Same large entry fees, same large payouts so players can profit off of their winnings?

Maybe I need to get out of tourneys, this is starting to become an issue with me.

But cutting the middle step often means cutting the chance of winning any prizes.



Who said Amateur Competition was about "winning any prizes"? This discussion is repugnant. It is also the source of 99% of the systemic dysfunction within organized disc golf competition.

When are we going to realize that you either �ARE� and amateur or you �ARE NOT�? This lack of definition is a powerful negative within our sport. And the solution is sitting right there in front of us but for our fear of change. Amateurs that think they should be winning big payouts at PDGA need to face that fact that they are not really amateurs at all, and the PDGA needs to realize that bribing these non-amateurs to attend our events with big payouts only facilitates this un-sportsmanlike conduct.

I disagree with Ams playing for profit. Anyone that has seen my garage knows that I don't sell plastic. What I have won that is not still there, I have given away or traded.

I also know that the economics of the current system rely on the Ams being paid in plastic and paid well. I have always been in favor of flatter payouts to more players and player pack to all players. I would like to see 50% of entry fees back as player packs, and 50% paid back as performance based prizes to at least 50% of the field. But from the complaints from the cashing Ams to the TDs that try this approach, it does not seem to be a very popular idea.

Time for a little "tough love" Gary.

Do we want to be a sport?

I am willing to take a gamble that there are enough "real" amateurs out there to fill our membership ranks 100 times over and that those playing for payouts will be willing to go pro. If we don't take that gamble we will be stuck, where we are, with a gray middle area that stifles growth at the top and bottom of our sport.

I really don't see it as an either/or situation.

I think we need a more team oriented format that is more in line with the other amateur team sports in payout format (basically some players pack, a venue, and trophies) and a singles format similar to what we have now.

Though some events may have suffered low turnouts lately, the overall turnout for any weekend or month seems to have increased year over year. I just see a potnetial for greater numbers with some type of organized team/league play that can get the schools involved in competition on a national level.

I think we need a more team oriented format that is more in line with the other amateur team sports in payout format (basically some players pack, a venue, and trophies) and a singles format similar to what we have now.



I agree that competitive formats have quite a bit of evolving to do and team activities are great, not just for WWCC ams.

But that is a seperate issue from the need to create a significant and meaningful differentiation between what it is to be a Professional and what it is to be an Amateur in organized competitive Disc Golf.

I think it would be easier to create a new format and divisions that are truly amateur fromthe ground up than to force the current players to abandon what they have come to know and expect form the current system ?

Why can't the two systems survive supporting each other ?

I think an obstacle holding back Nick's True Am Class is the 2 day, 4 round format. I think this is holding back many players, but that is another story. Giving up the entire weekend for DG is a tough sell for some. True ams should have an option to play for 1 day.

I don't know how to fix this, but I wanted to Biotch about something. :D

For who? Do any of you even play in Advanced? Or just hope enough of us show to make your tournament a success? Oh, wait I forgot the 20 pros that will show, to overshadow the 60 advanced players that paid a higher than normal entry fee for some crappy dx player pack and a lunch.

For who? Do any of you even play in Advanced? Or just hope enough of us show to make your tournament a success? Oh, wait I forgot the 20 pros that will show, to overshadow the 60 advanced players that paid a higher than normal entry fee for some crappy dx player pack and a lunch.




I do play Advanced. Gary plays Advanced Masters. We aren't in it for the plastic.

It's not just players packs, but also lower entry fees. $30 entry fee, netting a topline plastic disc ($15)and using the extra $15 as the payout for 50% of the field.

True ams should have an option to play for 1 day.

I don't know how to fix this, but I wanted to Biotch about something. :D



Move to Texas. Lots of options for 1 day events. We have the Gulf Coast Championship Series, which consists of 10 one-day events. We also have the world-reknowned Texas 10 Charity Tour (albeit 9 of the 10 events are unsanctioned), which are all 1 day events.

The first and next events at the new course in Conroe are 1 day events.

Again, choice is good!

I think it would be easier to create a new format and divisions that are truly amateur fromthe ground up than to force the current players to abandon what they have come to know and expect form the current system ?

Why can't the two systems survive supporting each other ?



Would you have separate events or both classes together at the same tourney?

Thats great that you are not in it for the plastic. I am. So what. Im also in it for the competition and the people i meet but im sure as heck not going to travel to all the big A Tiers and spend 200 bucks on a hotel and gas if i cant win anything. So your saying all the plastic that you win you just give away or trade. Sorry your not selling it and making money. Thats your choice. You think that HALF the field should recieve a payout. That is completely rediculous. I think it should be less then it is right now. I think the top 20% should get paid. Im not good enough to play Open yet but i will be in the future and when i feel ready i will move up. Untill then no one is going to MAKE me move up. I will decide when i am ready to move up and then i will. Untill then i will enjoy playing for prizes and i will go to the tournament where i KNOW there are good payouts. Thats all there is to it. I think that if you cut out the payouts you will cut out most of the members of the PDGA. Pros dont make the tournament unless its an NT or USDGC or an event like that. 90 percent of the tournaments run have a higher AM turnout then they do a PRO turnout. Thats just a fact. If you take about the prize aspect some may still play but a majority will just start setting up there own tournaments and promoting then and playing for CASH. People will start their own DISC GOLF association and start running tournaments the way they want them run.

I will say again. I think if the PDGA makes this decision and gets rid of payouts for the higher rated am they will lose alot of their player base and it will be a turn in the wrong direction for our sport.

This is just my opinion.

I think if the PDGA were to abolish plastic payouts for amateurs, wwcc amateurs would just play unsanctioned events and wwcc TDs would run them. They would just quit sanctioning the amateur side of their tournaments. I don't see how trimming our active membership from 8,000 down to 2,000 helps the cause any.

That's why I'd like to think about ways to encourage players to move up when it is time and to play against similarly skilled opponents, rather than to hang back for the free baskets, wind breakers and other cool stuff besides discs like Mills talks about.

With ratings based protected professional divisions already, the only thing we would be taking away is the name "Amateur"!

All of those players would still compete for a mix of cash and prizes within protected divisions, they just would know longer be within the one classification that REALLY DESERVES PROTECTION the yet to be introduce amateur class...

Im not hanging back to win that stuff although it would be nice to win a few baskets. Im staying in the Advanced division till i feel i can move up and start cashing. Thats the way i want to do it whether it makes me a bagger or not i dont care. If im not ready to move up then im not ready. Im not staying AM to clean up the prizes. Im staying am because i dont think im ready to play Open.

I was not talking about you, Mills, I was talking about what you were talking about. :D

It will make you a bagger.But, as long as you say your playing for a am title , then its okay.

Personally, I feel when you start playing open cashing shouldnt be guareenteed and if thats what your waiting for youll be in advanced for a long time.You will also be stunting your development as a player.It is expensive to tour while playing advanced and the attendence will suffer due to this ignorant thought of cutting am payouts.Put a 970 cap in place if you really want to make a difference.

I'm glad y'all are thinking this through and I hope y'all find the right strategy.

However, the assumption that the members will drop from 8,000 to 2,000 seems like a risky assumption to base your strategy on. For every amateur in need of their payout, there are plenty that value pure competition and a fair reward for their tourney fee.

Anyways, I question the worry about absolute membership numbers. So what. Who needs a membership addicted to free lunches?

Besides, where are they going to go to? Think about it. Some alternative organization devoted to plastic payouts. How would this organization legally prevent PDGA pros from playing in their tourneys and pillaging all the plastic. Ultimately, the PDGA defectors would face the reality that there is little reward in avoiding risk.

Back to the topic, I have no problem with soft caps, but it seems like yet another patch (similar to the last one) for the hemorrhaging patient. But ultimately, I am very, very happy that board members are considering this an issue and providing suggestions, even though I might not agree with them.

I would be all for the ratings protected Pro Divisions playing for cash. Say if there was a 960-980 Division and then a 980 Plus Division. That would be fine with me. I would move up and play the 960-980 division after this season is over. I would do that because i would think that i was ready to compete in the division. The only thing about that is the Open payouts woud suffer because the 960-970 rated player would be playing down in the protected division. Maybe 930-960 would be a good lower protected Pro Division but you couldnt FORCE anyone to play that division you could just offer it.

Lemme guess you couldnt force someone because you fall into it?

I don't think a 970 cap would make a difference. It would impact about one or two players in any given season. Y'all start yelling bagger at guys in their 940s, which is kind of low for going pro. If you look at the numbers, we only have less than 100 amateurs rated over 950 out of 4500 some amateur members. We have about 50 over 955.

The point of a soft cap would be to impact the player who needs to move up but is being held captive by his weakness for prizes. To say, "Put that at 970," is to say, "Never mind. We like having that guy play advanced."

Go ahead and call me a bagger. Thats fine with me. I will stay in the Advanced division untill i think i can compete in Open. Maybe ill be in Advanced for 2 more years maybe 4 more years. I doubt the later very much. That would still only put me at playing for 4 years. Most of the pros that actually compete in open have been playing for almost 10 years. Thats still 4 more years then i have been playing if i stay in advanced for 4 more years. They all went pro back in the day because the except for Kenny the competition was as stiff as it is today. So they all went pro cuz the payouts sucked and they wanted to play for cash. Now they are all super sweet and us new comers cant just jump in and run with the big dogs. Its just not possible unless you just have a very good natural talent for the game.

Ill be an AM untill i think im ready to be a pro no matter what people say. Its my choice and ill make it when im ready to. Untill then i will continue to take the term BAGGER as a compliment. Most people only call people baggers because they arent as good as that person and they are jealous.

I will for sure be an amature for all of 05 then ill go from there.

I don't think a 970 cap would make a difference. It would impact about one or two players in any given season. Y'all start yelling bagger at guys in their 940s, which is kind of low for going pro. If you look at the numbers, we only have less than 100 amateurs rated over 950 out of 4500 some amateur members. We have about 50 over 955.

The point of a soft cap would be to impact the player who needs to move up but is being held captive by his weakness for prizes. To say, "Put that at 970," is to say, "Never mind. We like having that guy play advanced."



And there we have the quintessential definition of "Move Up! Move Up! Move Out!" that so perfectly illustrates the flaws of our competitive system.

One way track straight out of the sport.

Being an amateur DOES NOT MEAN YOU ARE OF INFERIOR SKILL, it means that you are not a professional. At least it's that way in every sport other than disc golf.

Whatever. All Im suggesting is that at 970 you are a very good golfer, good enough that if on fire you could easily come into cashing in open. When you play bad it will show, but your still near the top or winning in advanced. I think everyone can agree that top level advanced players are low end cashing pros, for the most part.If they are concistently around the top of the tourneys they play, regardless of rating, then they are going to hit 970 and be bumped.Big deal, next season when they fall to 955 they go back to advanced.

James McCain says, "Besides, where would they go?"

In Michigan there are as many unsanctioned tournaments as there are sanctioned tournaments. In Peoria there are tournaments every month but they only sanction two of them. Wisconsin has its fair share of unsanctioned tournaments. Gary in Joliet has figured out how to sanction only the parts of his events that makes economic sense to him. There is plenty of unsanctioned stuff in Indiana. I guess they'd go to the midwest!

Seriously, they would go to the same tournaments they have always gone to. Your TD is not going to run tournaments that he does not have players for. The moment we say, "No payouts except for pros," is the moment he says, "O.k., no sanctioning except for pros."

I don't think we're talking about abolishing payouts, but reducing them AND ENTRY FEES AS WELL.

Why that last part is getting dropped from the discussion is a mystery to me. I guess players like paying more for events....

Whatever. All Im suggesting is that at 970 you are a very good golfer...


A 970 cap would affect about 1 disc gofler per year, so in essence you are doing nothing.

And to Nick, to whom I don't usually bother to respond because he tries not to listen, what I am talking about is absolutely not, "Move up, move up, move out." What I'm proposing is, "Move up, move up, ok, now stay as long as you want but no more prizes for you once you really ought to be thinking about moving up, but you can pay a lower entry fee and play for the trophy."

I'm only responding to Nick to set things straight for anyone who never read the original post or the Soft Caps 2 post.

James McCain says, "Besides, where would they go?"

In Michigan there are as many unsanctioned tournaments as there are sanctioned tournaments. In Peoria there are tournaments every month but they only sanction two of them. Wisconsin has its fair share of unsanctioned tournaments. Gary in Joliet has figured out how to sanction only the parts of his events that makes economic sense to him. There is plenty of unsanctioned stuff in Indiana. I guess they'd go to the midwest!

Seriously, they would go to the same tournaments they have always gone to. Your TD is not going to run tournaments that he does not have players for. The moment we say, "No payouts except for pros," is the moment he says, "O.k., no sanctioning except for pros."



As per usual you are having challenges with the bigger picture Bruce. If an amateur class based on lower entry fees and flat payouts became institutionalized, all of WWCC amateurs that love playing for prizes and payouts would be accommodated in protected professional classes (National Skills Championships ring a bell), and TDs can do payouts any way they choose: 50% cahs 50% prizes, 100% prizes, or 100% cash.

You present it like they would be out on their ear which is certainly not advisable nor would it likely ever happen.

Instead, what we seem to be doing is going in the other direction in 2005, where the pro divisions are moving back into the mixed "true am" and WWCC am divisions. This is not a good situation. It will not have a positive effect on newbies. Nor on our overall credibility as a sport.

There are two threads here, Tony, the one I started and the one Nick tries to convert every format thread into. :D

What I'm talking about is lowering the entry fee and banning from prizes players who exceed a certain ratings cap in the advanced divisions, Advanced Men, Advanced Women and Am Masters, but only at the local stuff, the B, C and D-tiers.

I have not seen much argument against that. Only against things I'm not talking about.

Ok, then make it a 956-970 cap.

I was first going to write "So what, let them go play in unsanctioned tournies." I personally don't care. Why does the PDGA feel the need to cater to people who crave financial rewards for performing at a mediocre level. Why? It is entirely the wrong group to cater to. The end result is the present screwed-up, way-less-than-it-could-be system. Then I realized that that was probably not your point. :o

At any rate, I suspect your point was the danger of having fewer sanctioned tourneys. However, from your post, it appears that this is happening already, under the present system.

For the sake of discussion, I will assume that your worry of losing members and sanctioned events is a legitimate worry. Well, maybe the PDGA should work towards providing a very tasty carrot in front of their am members. A possible invite to a tourney that every am dreams about. A USDGC for ams.

Also, I would like the PDGA to consider talks with the disc manufacturers to limit wholesale pricing to TDs running unsanctioned events. Yes, some will argue that the manufacturers have no incentive. I disagree. They have a lot at stake to the long term growth of this sport. It seems like they have more at stake with the sport than they do with lining the pockets of TDs of unsanctioned events or mediocre players.

Sorry for the rant. No offense aimed at any specific ams. I just feel that this strategy of providing incentives to be a mid level player is retarding our growth.

That's an interesting option James, but if the PDGA is pushing for lower entry fees/trophy only, and the unsanctioned events are the ones offering the fix to players that want bigger payouts, the disc manufacturers would do better financially to foster the unsanctioned events. It's the large Am payouts that are keeping sales up now. If the am payouts went away suddenly, the retail disc market would crater for a couple of years until all of the current cashing Ams sold everything out of their closets.

I really don't see a huge difference for disc sales between a flat payout with a merch-laden players pack and our present system. Hopefully, entry fees would be less, but numbers would eventually increase, thereby making merch sales equal. Plus, you are laying a healthy foundation for the sport, thereby shortening the time until the sport takes off, becomes known to the public and vastly increases disc sales.

Besides, I assume that the bulk of disc sales comes from non-touney outlets. In my experience, the majority of discs that I see thrown at my local course were not obtained as payout from a tournament. In other words, I don't think disc manufacturers are dependent on providing amateurs with their tournament plastic fixes.

However, I really don't know the manufacturer's economics at all and I could be dead wrong. I just assume that the real payoff for disc manufacturers comes when disc golf is seen on TV by many as a legitimate competitive sport. My thesis is that this occurs much quicker by scrapping the present system.

Bruce, sorry for thread drift. I like the thresholds you set 970 seems way too high for the pro threshold. A 969 rated player would be a powerful advanced player in my neck of the woods.

The reality is that with different tier levels, there really isn't a fixed break point that's always 'fair' between Advanced and Pro. It's uncommon for a pro with a 'stable' 970 rating to even cash at an A-tier or higher. However, pros in the 940s can cash at C-tiers. Even though it's a little more complicated, any future crossover point may have to based on the tier level to be fair.

For the sake of discussion, I will assume that your worry of losing members and sanctioned events is a legitimate worry. Well, maybe the PDGA should work towards providing a very tasty carrot in front of their am members. A possible invite to a tourney that every am dreams about. A USDGC for ams.

Also, I would like the PDGA to consider talks with the disc manufacturers to limit wholesale pricing to TDs running unsanctioned events. Yes, some will argue that the manufacturers have no incentive. I disagree. They have a lot at stake to the long term growth of this sport. It seems like they have more at stake with the sport than they do with lining the pockets of TDs of unsanctioned events or mediocre players.





Very interesting ideas James. I agree, the use of positive inducements always works better than the use of negative inducements. I also like the notion that manufacturers have a reason to support the PDGA, both historically and into the future. The question is, could you sell it? People frequently don't do the right thing, more often they are short sighted.

I really don't see a huge difference for disc sales between a flat payout with a merch-laden players pack and our present system.



I agree that as long as the total am payout remains the same there is no impact on the manufacturers. It is the push toward a true amateur class with trophy only payouts that has me worried. It shouldn't impact the TD's bottom line very much as I understand it, but it will impact how much stock they have to order to cover the potential that no one will elect to go trophy only and then having 1/3 to 1/2 of the field elect to go trophy only.

Now the TD is stuck with $1000 retail in stock with no immediate method of liquidating it.

Ok i changed my mind I am against these "soft caps" just for the fact that there is no defined rating for pro and if they want to stay AM so be it. The way it's looking now my rating will be pretty high before I move up, and I would rather decide to play pro on my own for a lower price then to be forced to play am for a trophy. If there is a 1000 rated AM at your tournament that just gives you more motivation to play well. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Ams may play Pro for 'trophy only' if the TD provides that option. Ams at all rating levels in MN may play for trophy only in any Pro division they qualify for at 1/3 that pro entry fee.

I need to talk to some TD's in TX about that. The only downfall is you get Pro points instead of Am. This happened to me and made me #11 in the state instead of like #8. :confused: :confused:

For fun:

Cloud 9 DG Tourney

Gold(970+) $75
payout in cash

Silver(925-969) $50
payout 50% cash and 50% prizes

Bronze(875-924)$35
payout in prizes only


Amatuer Divisions:

Am 1(900+) - $20

Am 2 (899 below) - $20

All ams recive a player package valued at $15 retail and trophies for the top 3 places in each division.

---------

Feel free to adjust the numbers accordingly and add in any needed protected divisions to this simplified version of a possible toureny structure.
Could it work??

I'd come.

James,

You are making some excellent points. Really!

Bruce,

A skill based cap at the top of the amateur class certifies all amatuer divisions as nothing more than protected professional divisions.

If there had been a healthy amateur class and divisions back when I started playing (made up about 10% of the total field) I am confident that to this day I would be an Amateur Player(makes up about 56%). Alas, there was not, and there isn't one even now.

Not sure I understand why this is so.

There are certainly skill-based soft caps in other sports that have highly paid amateur divisions. They just aren't as objectively defined and the incentives are different, like $10,000,000 per year in basketball versus maybe $500 a week in disc golf for a top amateur to go pro. You don't think waiving 10 mil at some poor city kid doesn't soft cap him right out of his senior year of college where he could have made the equivalent of $40,000 in room, board, tuition and travel expenses? He was doing pretty good with his college scholarship, too, for an amateur. Probably better than most of the pro disc golfers are doing on the road because he also gets the free medical for his injuries.

I tried to post this earlier but must have forgot to hit the post button after reviewing my post.

First, I agree with James and Nick that amateurs playing for stacks of prizes is not healthy for this sport or any other sport. Nonetheless, I don't think we can mandate that on our TDs. The notion that gambling is detrimental to sport seems to have gone out the door with the notion that widespread legalized gambling is detrimental to society, generally. I think we have to deal with things the way they are. I have much less faith than Nick in the ability of a little NGO like the PDGA to reshape societal values.

James' idea of colluding with the manufacturers is far fetched. The manufacturers have no interest in a plan NOT to sell discs so we can implement a competitive format that does not require the TDs to buy discs. Neither do the manufacturers control the market. Nor would such collusion be legal under anti-trust laws.

Finally, there already is a USDGC for ams. And, they give out so much stuff in player packs and lizard games that they don't really have fat payouts. www.amnationals.com (http://www.amnationals.com)

Has anyone checked out what they are doing in Finland and Sweden? Every adult plays in a pro division. At a tournament with 100 adult players every single one of them is playing Open, except the Open Women and Open Masters. So you are an adult male shooting 850 golf? No problem, we have a division for you: Open!!! Moreover, significant numbers of 850 shooting players sign up to play against Markus Kallstrom and the other top pros they have there. Looks like everyone gets a couple of meals and a players pack too.

O.k., I'm calling it. We're a bunch of babies with our ten, eleven or twelve divisions at our tournaments.

Do they mix up every thing for the first round, i.e. could I get placed on a card with Markus? I'd be willing to pay extra for that!

I was looking for that and could not find that kind of detail.

Has anyone checked out what they are doing in Finland and Sweden? Every adult plays in a pro division. At a tournament with 100 adult players every single one of them is playing Open, except the Open Women and Open Masters. So you are an adult male shooting 850 golf? No problem, we have a division for you: Open!!! Moreover, significant numbers of 850 shooting players sign up to play against Markus Kallstrom and the other top pros they have there. Looks like everyone gets a couple of meals and a players pack too.

O.k., I'm calling it. We're a bunch of babies with our ten, eleven or twelve divisions at our tournaments.



If I got a nice players package and a good meal for a reasonable entry fee (equal or less than the Swedish equivalent of 40 American dollars) I'd play in tournaments if I lived in Sweden. Otherwise, I would not donate to Markus Kallstrom every week and I'd refrain from playing in tournament golf altogether. That's not the objective.

10-12 divisions in the USA is silly. Age protected divisions are silly. An Open men's division and an Open women's division, along with a semi-pro division for each gender (for mullet pros, Masters, and Advanced, ratings-capped) and amateur intermediate and recreational divisions (also ratings-based) for each gender are all we need. Most tournaments would probably only need 5-7 of a possible eight divisions, depending on how many women show up.

Yes, they mix them.

In Sweden there are 7 Pro tournaments total. 4 are in the Swedish Tour, 3 are in the Nordic Tour, with Open, Open Woman, Masters, Juniors in both gender, and in some Juniors up to fifteen. In smaller local tournaments, they do have other other division including amateurs etc..

I think that will change as the sport grows

From exchanging e-mails with Tommi Vesala of the Nordic Tour, it looks like a few factors work together to make their format work. The entry fees are reasonable, there are not as many tournament choices, good player packs and food for the donors, and genuine added cash (and Nordic players aren't cry babies.) I'm using my words and not his. Don't go saying Tommi called us crybabies! :D

And don't forget, no 2m rule on the Nordic Tour! :D

Another thing that may work for their format is that the amateurs mostly play separate events from the pros, and when the Nordic Tour comes to town it is a special event. So, in this sense it is not too much different from a rec player playing advanced at the Great Lakes Open. If he wants to play the big local event, that is his only amateur choice at the DGLO. So if about $40 gets you two lunches and a players pack, why not play your local Nordic Tour?

but he kept his honor. besides, all he would have won is a metal mini. no payout for pros playing am. further, who knows where he would have finished if he would have played ADV. different opponents, different situations, different mental aspects... maybe better score, maybe not as good.

besides, all he would have won is a metal mini. no payout for pros playing am.

No, this is incorrect. Pros playing am are allowed to win whatever prizes are offered for whereever they finish. If you go to the home page and click on the 2005 Tour Infomation link and then click on the Guide to 2005 Tour Standards document it is in there.

ok, i stand corrected. i couilda sworn it was the other way tho.

but he kept his honor.



What?

I stated on the PIO thread that I played Open because it was a C-tier AND because it was only $5 more to play open. If Open had been $10 more, I may have sandbagged.

As far as how I play against players. My best rounds have always been where I am better than the other players. For some mental reason, i don't play well when playing against players MUCH better than me.

I will play an Advance tournament sometime this year. (as long as my rating stays below 955)

Currently looking at ZBoaz, Cedar Hill or Waco.

I will not be donating to any A-tier's in the Pro this year. (not that I have been for the last few)

What I should do is to keep playing Advance till my player rating goes above that 955 mark again.

But then Jefthrow Bodine told me he was going to tie me up and cut my hair if I ever played Advance at a tournament he was playing at. (this comming from an "Am For Life" guy)

This is an idea I have been thinking about. Currently we have hard caps on the intermediate and rec divisions. If you are over the rating cap you must move up. What would members think about soft caps on the Advanced divisions, namely Advanced Men, Advanced Women and Am Masters? The idea would be that if you are rated above a certain number, most logically the same number we are using for "Pros Play Am," you can no longer compete for a payout in that amateur division at B, C and D tier events. You get to pay the "true-am" entry fee if you want to play in that division for points and trophies. Or you can play in a division with a cap that is higher than your rating, or you can play pro.

It seems to me that this is consistant with the direction our format is evolving. It is fair to any player who has a legitimate reason for not moving up. It would only have a bearing on a small number of players.

TBender was raising this topic on the Pros Playing Am thread so I thought I'd bump the thread back up from the dregs of Deadthreadland. :)

All these rules take all the fun away from the game.

At least for ams.

At least for advanced players who have run out of competition at the local level but whose only source of fun is whupping on the homeboys.

I wouldnt know what thats like.All the ADV players I play with are pretty impressive.

Then ALL of you Quad Cities guys should move up cause I gotta mortgage to pay!!!(just kidding Chase) :eek: :p :D:cool:

Wont be long, Id imagine.Some might make it through the season as ams, some might not.Id really like to play in Arizona, but if I can I will move up and start giving away money.

Im not moving up untill i think i can compete and hit atleast last cash more then 50 percent of the time :D

2006 Am Worlds here i come :D

2006???

Prolly

Unless i just get super sweet this year and win like 9 Advanced tournaments.

you have to wiin 9? Where Im from up until a year ago if you won a advanced tourney, you were a bagger if you didnt move up. I couldnt live around here and play ADV if I won 2 tourneys, let alone 9. I think if you can win or even go top 5 in 9 major tourneys { no prob for you Pimp, with your traveling schedule} then your more then ready.Consistency is what makes a pro a pro , and finishes like those above would put you in the money, and probaly a shot or 2 out of top 10 in open.

you have to wiin 9? Where Im from up until a year ago if you won a advanced tourney, you were a bagger if you didnt move up. I couldnt live around here and play ADV if I won 2 tourneys, let alone 9. I think if you can win or even go top 5 in 9 major tourneys { no prob for you Pimp, with your traveling schedule} then your more then ready.Consistency is what makes a pro a pro , and finishes like those above would put you in the money, and probaly a shot or 2 out of top 10 in open.



This may be true but people can call me a bagger as much as they want. I take it as a compliment. Plus im not going to turn pro because other people think i should im going to turn pro when I think i should. Being called a bagger is the worst reason to turn pro on the planet. You should turn pro when YOU want not when OTHERS want you to.

you have to wiin 9? Where Im from up until a year ago if you won a advanced tourney, you were a bagger if you didnt move up. I couldnt live around here and play ADV if I won 2 tourneys, let alone 9. I think if you can win or even go top 5 in 9 major tourneys { no prob for you Pimp, with your traveling schedule} then your more then ready.Consistency is what makes a pro a pro , and finishes like those above would put you in the money, and probaly a shot or 2 out of top 10 in open.



This may be true but people can call me a bagger as much as they want. I take it as a compliment. Plus im not going to turn pro because other people think i should im going to turn pro when I think i should. Being called a bagger is the worst reason to turn pro on the planet. You should turn pro when YOU want not when OTHERS want you to.



Yes, but would you have to win 9 tournaments before you moved up if Ams were limited to trophies only? Or do you just want to keep winning STUFF, because you still wouldn't be good enough to win CASH?

What's the motivation? Complete dominance of your local Am scene? Accumulation of goods? Improvement of your game? I wouldn't call you a bagger if you truly belonged in the division, but if you have topped out, why not move up for the challenge?

I agree with you John. Its all about the challenge.I have recently been in school though and have played less then 10 times since Sept.I figure by the middle of the season{ after Highbridge} Ill be donating, even if I have no wins.Personally, I think I would be alot more consistent if I had to be, which in open is a given.
Pimp, I let no person dictate where I play.If I did Id have played open last year, but I also have no desire to be the next JJ in the sense of "superbagger".{ Not a attack on JJ, if I had his skills Id play for cash.Screw ADV.} If you think being called sandbagger is a compliment then you have some serious issues, and will play in advanced for the next decade.Theres always barber college.I meant what I said about your productive posts as well.

Yes, but would you have to win 9 tournaments before you moved up if Ams were limited to trophies only? Or do you just want to keep winning STUFF, because you still wouldn't be good enough to win CASH?

What's the motivation? Complete dominance of your local Am scene? Accumulation of goods? Improvement of your game? I wouldn't call you a bagger if you truly belonged in the division, but if you have topped out, why not move up for the challenge?



Like i have said before. Ill move up when i think im ready to move up. If thats after 2 wins then its after 2 wins. If its after 20 wins then its after 20 wins. If its after 10 top 5 finishes at big tournaments in a row then thats fine to but im not moving up untill I think IM ready.

Domination of my local scene??? Thats funny since i travel ALL over the country to play in amature events. I dont just play in my home town. I play the Memorial in AZ Bowling Green Championship in Kentucky, Brent Hambrick Memorial in Ohio. Michiana Open in IN.

Plus i could really care less about winning STUFF. I have a basement FULL of STUFF from last year. This year is about making a name for myself and developing my game to the point where it needs to be for me to turn pro. Its not about winning STUFF. I mean its a sweet bonus and it may help me out with some costs that i have over the season but its not what its all about.

Then why do you care about the AM Payout?

I agree with you John. Its all about the challenge.I have recently been in school though and have played less then 10 times since Sept.I figure by the middle of the season{ after Highbridge} Ill be donating, even if I have no wins.Personally, I think I would be alot more consistent if I had to be, which in open is a given.
Pimp, I let no person dictate where I play.If I did Id have played open last year, but I also have no desire to be the next JJ in the sense of "superbagger".{ Not a attack on JJ, if I had his skills Id play for cash.Screw ADV.} If you think being called sandbagger is a compliment then you have some serious issues, and will play in advanced for the next decade.Theres always barber college.I meant what I said about your productive posts as well.



You would be alot more consistent if you HAD to be? what makes you HAVE to? I'd say you do have to be more consistent than you were if you want to win in advanced. You won zero advanced singles events last year. I think your assuming quite alot by thinking that your game will magically improve by playing open. good luck with that.

Oh boy! Oh boy! After you guys get done arguing here, will you revive the "ILLINOIS, RepreZENT" thread? Pretty please? That was one of my favorites! Nothing keeps an otherwise boring Friday interesting like Advanced players bantering back and forth about nonsense!!! Holla' back, y'all!

I agree with you John. Its all about the challenge.I have recently been in school though and have played less then 10 times since Sept.I figure by the middle of the season{ after Highbridge} Ill be donating, even if I have no wins.Personally, I think I would be alot more consistent if I had to be, which in open is a given.
Pimp, I let no person dictate where I play.If I did Id have played open last year, but I also have no desire to be the next JJ in the sense of "superbagger".{ Not a attack on JJ, if I had his skills Id play for cash.Screw ADV.} If you think being called sandbagger is a compliment then you have some serious issues, and will play in advanced for the next decade.Theres always barber college.I meant what I said about your productive posts as well.



You would be alot more consistent if you HAD to be? what makes you HAVE to? I'd say you do have to be more consistent than you were if you want to win in advanced. You won zero advanced singles events last year. I think your assuming quite alot by thinking that your game will magically improve by playing open. good luck with that.



What part of what I said do you STILL not understand?
If you guys want to bag all year or for the rest of your life do it.
OK 1 more time for the ignorant. If every shot has to count then your mindset {if your me and not you apparently}will be less likely to take off holes. Understand ? How many Tournaments did you win last year? I guess if I played on all those mini courses in Chicago or had the ability to play more tourneys, maybe I would of won. I think you can go ahead and look into my numbers.They arent superstar, but for how I did vs. # of tourneys played ,Im not depressed. you guys are just waiting to say its ok to compete in ADV for as long as you want , to keep on showing the ADV how its done.Sorry losers I have a little more confidence in myself then that. I cant wait to see that Silver Camry either.

...I guess if I played on all those mini courses in Chicago or had the ability to play more tourneys, maybe I would of won...I cant wait to see that Silver Camry either.



Just a correction and a comment. There are no courses in Chicago. Not a single one. I am working on the first course in Chicago and hope that it works out and we have baskets this spring. And also about that silver Camry. It is SWEET! We call it the "Babe Magnet"!

There is, by definition, no bagging in advanced because advanced has no defined upper skill limit. It is not bagging to maintain your amateur eligibility in order to play in amateur championship events.

Bagging is when you play in one division when you "should" be playing in a higher division. In disc golf the "shoulds" are in the rulebook and in the competitive format which trumps the rules.

There is no rule that tells a player he is rated too high to play Advanced. Your values do not determine when a player other than yourself is too good for advanced. Our rules do. Currently our rules say that no player is too good to play in advanced.

If you think we need a rule, that is why I started this thread. Try talking about that. How would you define a fair rule to cap advanced?

...I guess if I played on all those mini courses in Chicago or had the ability to play more tourneys, maybe I would of won...I cant wait to see that Silver Camry either.



Just a correction and a comment. There are no courses in Chicago. Not a single one. I am working on the first course in Chicago and hope that it works out and we have baskets this spring. And also about that silver Camry. It is SWEET! We call it the "Babe Magnet"!



Come on man... you know what he was talking about...

maybe the 20 COURSES right outside and around Chicago and in its many many suburbs.

It's like if you lived in Oak Park but you tell people you're from Chicago for ease of reference. Aren't you the VP of discontinum and Illinois State Coordinator anyways? You know all of this... maybe you were just trying to be a... with the literal interpertation of everything...
then i guess i have a correction for you... the camry isn't silver, Toyota actually calls that color Lunar Mist Metallic, but then again, we all knew what you were talking about when you said silver, sorta like we all knew what Chase was talking about when he said Chicago :D

...I guess if I played on all those mini courses in Chicago or had the ability to play more tourneys, maybe I would of won...I cant wait to see that Silver Camry either.



Just a correction and a comment. There are no courses in Chicago. Not a single one. I am working on the first course in Chicago and hope that it works out and we have baskets this spring. And also about that silver Camry. It is SWEET! We call it the "Babe Magnet"!



Come on man... you know what he was talking about...

maybe the 20 COURSES right outside and around Chicago and in its many many suburbs.

It's like if you lived in Oak Park but you tell people you're from Chicago for ease of reference. Aren't you the VP of discontinum and Illinois State Coordinator anyways? You know all of this... maybe you were just trying to be a... with the literal interpertation of everything...
then i guess i have a correction for you... the camry isn't silver, Toyota actually calls that color Lunar Mist Metallic, but then again, we all knew what you were talking about when you said silver, sorta like we all knew what Chase was talking about when he said Chicago :D



Lunar Mist Metallic? That has "Babe Magnet" written all over it!!! Why hasn't Dan been calling that a Lunar Mist Metallic Camry?!?!? He'd be getting ten times the babe attraction!! Dan, did you know this?

Just a correction and a comment. There are no courses in Chicago. Not a single one. I am working on the first course in Chicago and hope that it works out and we have baskets this spring. And also about that silver Camry. It is SWEET! We call it the "Babe Magnet"!



Hey y'all! In an effort to keep my post count down (let's be honest, only nerds care about trying to raise their post total), I have included something for (almost) all of you!

Jon, thanks for working on a course in Chicago. New courses are always a good thing. If I can help out, please let me know.

Chase, as you may or may not know, land is hard to come by in the suburbs. It is difficult to install a course in excess of 8,000 feet when you only have 20 acres with which to work. Even if a course is short, it is still better than no course. More course will lead to more golfers, which will (I hope) lead to more positive recognition of this game we play.

Bruce, 930 sounds like a good rating at which to turn pro. The more lower-rated players there are who play Open, the more lower-rated players there are who will cash.

As for Dan's silver Camry, I am confused. If it really is a "Babe Magnet," why Dan have the following tag line: "Ladies, I am currently single. PM me if interested."?

As always, Holla' back, y'all!

Thanks for pointing that out Knudsen.I had no idea there was no land availible in Chicago, or related suburbs.Ive only lived in Illinois my whole life.Is Chicago big? Besides that the courses up are outdated for the most part. Have I played there and would I play there again? Yes, because Gary Lewis does a fantastic job as a TD, and all the people Ive met up there have been really cool, and really good golfers.I have no problem with them, my problem is with someone that is following me around chalenging my opinion, because they are looking for justification on why they dont feel the same way.

Bruce, as I am not on the BOD why dont you ask them where the bump should be.Ive advocated before that the bump shoud be 960-970.At 960- 970 you have the ability to cash in open.You have to be on your game, but you obviously have the skill of a lower ended pro.At a wimpy 930, I wouldve been in the low,low cashing end in several tournaments I played.

Dan, how many times must I explain MY opinion on why moving up can benefit MY game? Did I not make it obviously clear in the Represent thread? Or are you actually expecting me to believe your that dense? Its my opinion, not one you have to abide by, and if you cant understand it then stop making your dumb assed comments.Just because you appearently like being known as a powerfull advanced player and have no faith in your game, doesnt give you the right to follow me around and contridict my opinion. I SERIOUSLY doubt youd do it face to face, but if you want to Ill see you this summer, maybe, and I will express my views.

Chase,

I agree with you that some of the Chicagoland courses are outdated and the majority are short. I also understand that there isn't much that can be done about it. Most of the courses in the Joliet area were installed in the 1980s with Midnight Flyers in mind, and now there is simply no room to expand.

That being said, there are a few courses in the area that could be redesigned (West Park and Channahon come to mind). The main problem with a redesign is that everyone would want to offer input, but few people would be willing to do the work required for any sort of upgrade. It seems that half of the people want to complain about how the course is too easy, and half of the people are content to throw 250-foot hyzer shot after 250-foot hyzer shot. I am just happy to have a course on which to play, especially with increased vandalism and liter, and I try to pitch in when I can.

I don't want you to think that I am trying to force any of my opinions on you (not that I think you had a problem with my previous post, I just want to clarify). If you would like to play the new course in Mokena, which some people have described as a truly world-class course, give me a call. In the meantime, when I want to play a course that is as tough as any course anywhere in the world, I will make the 2-hour trek to Pekin to play McNaughty McNasty.

Bruce, why are you so interested in a "soft cap"? Why can't tournament directors "guide" players into the appropriate division at the right time? I was lucky enough to have Jeff Harper tell me when it was time to move up, and I have been fairly succesful in the Open division. Dig through Craig Gangloff's posts and find the ones where he talks about his amateur days. As I recall, he played two events, won both, and the tournament director told him that in future events he would have to play Open. Isn't it weird how the simplest solution is usually (always) the best?

Ah well, at least nearly everyone reading this thread can agree on which college basketball team is the best in the nation, right?

Ah well, at least nearly everyone reading this thread can agree on which college basketball team is the best in the nation, right?



Iowa State? :D

No, Iowa!!

Bruce, why are you so interested in a "soft cap"? Why can't tournament directors "guide" players into the appropriate division at the right time? I was lucky enough to have Jeff Harper tell me when it was time to move up, and I have been fairly succesful in the Open division. Dig through Craig Gangloff's posts and find the ones where he talks about his amateur days. As I recall, he played two events, won both, and the tournament director told him that in future events he would have to play Open. Isn't it weird how the simplest solution is usually (always) the best?



John is correct. When I started playing tournaments, the local TD's decided who should play where. After winning my first 2 events - I was basically informed I would not be "allowed" to play Am anymore. Of course my total take for those 2 events was 7 discs (so I didn't think I needed anymore :) )

I wouldn't have cashed in either of my first 2 events in the Open division - and knew when I stepped up that it would be hard to compete with guys obviously better and more consistent than myself. It was knowing that that drove me to want to get better.

It's that experience that just makes me laugh at the entire divisional brouhaha we have now. The notion that people shouldn't be "forced" into anything is just plain silly, largely self serving, and has little to do with a pure competitive venue - especially with the degree of overlap in the top 3 competitive classes (MPO, MPM, MA1). IMO Sanctioned competition should offer strict, skill based categories that players fall into or not. The only choice a player should have is whether to enter or not. All this whining about having to compete against players better than you is just so much blather. Having 90 players and 8 divisions is...........can you call it anything but laughable?

The idea of soft caps (while not all that bad an idea in trying to deal with the divisional mess we've gotten ourselves into) is unfortunately little more than a band aid.

I was just trying to be light and fluffy...and any chance to give Dan a hard time about the chick-mobile!

I heard that the Illinois State Championships are at Mokena this year. I have not seen the course but have heard that it is a challenging par 3 course. I'm hoping the body parts are healed by then. The womenfolk are all at camp that week so I could take a long weekend.

I'm interested in soft caps because I think they work better than hard caps for top amateurs who want to play Am Worlds. Hard caps are what we see in the format proposals being put out there by respected energetic volunteers. I'm looking for an alternative that satisfies their concerns, but don't turn Am Worlds into 955 Capped Worlds.

If a guy wants to stay amateur to win stacks of plastic without trying, I agree with those who don't respect that. But if a guy wants to stay amateur so he can qualify for and play an amateur championship event, or if he needs to stay amateur for his track and field scholarship, I can respect that too, even if he has pro game.

Huh?

Im not trying to knock Chicago-land courses.I understand what your trying to say, and never suggested they are crap or not worth playing.Id play at Follets every day if thats what I had.Im not being a course snob.

Alright, I understatnd that you gotta represent Iowa, but come on. Illinois had a close game vs. Iowa but still won. And now Iowa doesn't even have their best shooter for the rest of the year. Look for Illinois to win EVERY game from here on out!!!!! :D:cool:

Yes, & i'm so bummed. I'll be at Highbrdge that weekend. Mokena is a fun tournament course.

As for Dan's silver Camry, I am confused. If it really is a "Babe Magnet," why Dan have the following tag line: "Ladies, I am currently single. PM me if interested."?

As always, Holla' back, y'all!



Ouch!! :D I'm not as smooth as you I guess dude. I have to beg /msgboard/images/graemlins/ooo.gif I'll let you know how much success the Lunar Mist Metallic car has though!

Chase, honestly I was only tryin to help you man. But, you gotta do what you think is best. It does bother me a little when people try to hassle guys who are clearly advanced level players into donating their money to the pro purse. This is supposed to be fun, and it wouldn't be fun to do that 20 times in a year! This is my thought process on this right now, maybe if I become wealthier I will go Pro just for the heck of it. I definitely WANT to play pro. I'm just not good enough right now and I love playing a ton of tournaments too much to give that up.

I'm on that bubble myself. I have no sincere desire to move up and then when I travel, just be donating money to the NT players for a year or more. HOWEVER, I really like the idea Chuck Kennedy was mentioning in a Trophy-only pro option. Pay a third of the entry fee and play with better players, allow the Ams to win their precious stacks and not donate more money. I like it and am going to try to talk Gary into it. I don't want to keep playing Adv. locally, but I neeed to stay Am for World's and Nat's.
I don't know about caps. I like freedom of choice. However, I see a bottleneck forming with the PDGA encouraging Pro's to play Am. This is making the already competitive and crowded Adv. field even bigger. I liked Pro2. I liked the "Elite" Am idea. Just something to provide a bridge. Next year I will more than likely be playing against Barry and Kenny, and all the rest. That's not a big step, that's jumping off a frickin' cliff!

I agree, it is like cliff jumping,but...... 1) It would be so sweet to play with those guys in a competitive round. Imagine what you would learn.And if you shoot well, the confidence in your game and mentality would be huge. 2) By playing with people of a pro caliber, you subject yourself to a "make each shot count" round and for some people they need that intense compition, or they at least like it. 3) Did I mention how sweet it would be to play with those top pros and see it for a round or forever?

Alright, I understatnd that you gotta represent Iowa, but come on. Illinois had a close game vs. Iowa but still won. And now Iowa doesn't even have their best shooter for the rest of the year. Look for Illinois to win EVERY game from here on out!!!!! :D:cool:



Iowa played pretty good and came pretty close today (even without Pierce), albeit Illinois won...

but ISU definitely showed their true potential against Kansas today (I was even doubting) :p they're only getting stronger this season and Stinson had 29 today, almost went for a season high! :Dand beating the no. 2 team in the nation at home isn't too bad either!

I play with those guys anyway. :D
I'm fully ready to start donating NEXT year. I'd just like a bridge this year.
Yes it would be sweet, but sometimes that can cost some serious money above whatever else I'm spending to get there and so forth.
Besides, around here, I'd be playing w/ Dave S., Shawn H., and Kris H. not to mention others! How much am I really going to learn? ;)
And for some reason I seem to shoot best when the people around me aren't doing so well. At least for now (I hope).

Besides, around here, I'd be playing w/ Dave S., Shawn H., and Kris H. not to mention others! How much am I really going to learn? ;)




Tafe, don't forget Dave's pal, Rob S! I had the distinct (dis)pleasure of suffering through a 27-hole round with him this summer. What a winner that guy is! I learned so much! For instance, I learned a whole new bag-kicking technique (for maximum content-dumping effect!). I learned that it is only natural to smack your putter into every nearby tree after missing a 15-foot putt. I learned (from others who have played with him) that it is ok to have your son act as a "spotter" and have him kick your disc closer to the hole. Needless to say, I learned more than I would have cared to know.

On the other hand, I did have the pleasure of playing with a few "good" pros (I think y'all call them "Super Pros") in a few events this past summer, and it certainly inspired me to improve my game. The most inspiring thing is that I realized, "These guys don't do anything that I can't do." The biggest difference between a good Open player and a decent Advanced player isn't much. In fact, I would say the only difference is that when an Open player has a bad drive, he has a 40-foot putt (and approximately a 70% chance that he will sink it) as opposed to a 15-foot putt.

Oh yeah, "I-L-L..."!

haha. yes, Rob S :eek: fun guy :)