With the change for 2005 that allows Pros below 955 rating to play in Am, I have a suggestion for TDs who run events where some divisions play one day and other divisions play the other day on a weekend. Typically, the split has Pro and Advanced on one day and lower Am divisions on the other. This year, consider running all Advanced divisions on one day, and all Pro plus Int and Rec divisions the other day. This split might work better in 2005 so that the Pro divisions may not be depleted as much with the pros who could play in am being able to play both days rather than being forced to choose am or pro on the same day.

From the standpoint of boosting participation, I can see how this would make sense. However, I expect this would not be popular with the Pro players as speed of play would undoubtedly be an issue. Regardless of who actually plays slower, pros waiting on rec players searching the shule for a shanked drive will cause problems. This would be more of an issue on some courses rather than others.

Size of field is also an issue. Typically, in Phoenix, the Intermediate division is by far the biggest division, so lumping Adv & Pro together makes sense.

From the standpoint of boosting participation, I can see how this would make sense. However, I expect this would not be popular with the Pro players as speed of play would undoubtedly be an issue. Regardless of who actually plays slower, pros waiting on rec players searching the shule for a shanked drive will cause problems. This would be more of an issue on some courses rather than others.


I was going to say the exact same thing.

I appreciate the outside-the-box thinking! :D

...what if "filling the card$" really wasn't a concern, and one could have foursomes of Int, and threesomes of Pros and also Recs. Wouldn't that prevent slow play?

From the standpoint of boosting participation, I can see how this would make sense. However, I expect this would not be popular with the Pro players as speed of play would undoubtedly be an issue. Regardless of who actually plays slower, pros waiting on rec players searching the shule for a shanked drive will cause problems. This would be more of an issue on some courses rather than others.


I was going to say the exact same thing.

Me too. And for TDs who run C-tiers on the pro side, this would work fine! :D

good idea, except for those ams who travel with the Adv players. Like girlfriends, etc. Ams tend to travel together, but Intermediate players rarely travel with pros. I imagine it's a good idea if you live in an enormous participation metropolis, but for tourneys that fill from out of town, I think that Int players mooch off the Adv players for travel and lodging more than they would off other int players (ints seem to be more sporadic and less organized.) or pros.

Tournaments in the Joliet area have always been run with Rec/Int Sat. and Pro/Adv Sun. I think the main reason is to avoid sanctioning and additional fees for the Rec. players. The fields are usually quite equal in size. This format seems to be quite popular in the area as the Sat. players are trying to figure out if they should invest the money in a PDGA membership and take the game more seriously or not.

How about this
All am divisions only play 36 hole at a event and the pros play 72.
I purpose all divisions play in the morning and only pros in the afternoon. I think this would allow the am to enjoy watching pros in the afternoon. And it would not be so time demanding on the am player. There are more advantages to running event like this. I am trying to narrow down the dis-advantages and is open for suggestion.
I am seriously think about doing this at one of my events. What does everyone think?

Big disadvantage I see to that Vinnie is you are making people commit two days to play just 2 rounds. I would imagine that most of those players would rather dedicate their Saturday to playing and have the option to come back to watch the Pros finish on Sunday.

Besides that, I'm not a big fan of contriving galleries to watch the pros by trapping ams into it. A final 9 at the end of the tournament is one thing...players can just leave if they have no reason/desire to hang around. But if I travel from out of town for a weekend only to not play on Saturday afternoon just to make up a gallery, I'd be a bit upset and frustrated. If I were only going to play 36 holes, I'd rather do it all in one day and have other day to travel/relax/do non-disc golf stuff.

--Josh

I was typing something just like Josh's response and then thought I'd sound like a whiner. But now that Josh has gone first...

I really don't like being an amateur prize hostage spectator format victim. When we do a thing after the tournament for top pros at the IOS, we let ams get their prizes and split if they want. Worse than waiting for the pros to play 27 holes so that you can get your two frisbees and leave is waiting that long so your ride can get hers and you can leave. "How about I give you two frisbees when we get home and we'll be home in time for dinner?"

O.k., so I do sound like a whiner. Do Josh and I have a point?

I think those are valid and its noted. And I ain't bashing ok.....but why won't an AM want to watch the pros?
I understand the fustration of an AM player being held hostage. But big gallerys is how big sponsors are going to jump aboard. If it was a am only weekend, then the event would cater to the am player. But if it is mixed division tournament....what Am travels so far that they need to leave to get home early, get highly paid and expect to be catered to.......I say that is a Am that needs to expect to be treated as a AM of a sport that has PROS or a Am that his peers have labled a sand bagger and should be playing PRO anyways.... Again I ain't try to BASH so please I am only looking to share some ideas.Because one is thinking out the box doesn't make him a trouble maker :D

Vinnie,

I think most disc golfers, regardless of division, prefer playing disc golf rather than watching others play disc golf.

If you want to have a large gallery of AM players in your gallery, have a Pro only weekend, and see how many local non-pro players come out to watch.

Why wouldn't I want to watch the Pros play? Depends on the tournament. I would show up to watch the final round of a Supertour event. But a local B or even A-tier event? Not likely.

The reason? I have a very busy life. I barely have enough time to play enough disc golf. If I play one round in the a.m., and have the rest of the day free before my other round the following day, I know I wouldn't stick around the course to watch the Pros play.

If I knew in advance that a tournament would have this suggested format, I wouldn't travel to it. I would play it if it were in my home town, but would probably leave right after my round was over so I could get home and take care of things that always need to be taken care of at home.

If I showed up from out of town and this format was sprung on me unannounced, I would be furious at the TD, would request a refund of my entry fee, and would probably not play in one of his tournaments again.

Vinnie, I understand the intent (larger galleries). I just don't think this is the best way to do it.

At the risk of sounding like Nick Kight....

The reason AMs don't want to stay and watch is because most AMs aren't AMs, they're PROs playing for plastic coins. They want theirs and **** everyone else.

To fix that one, you need to brainwash the AMs and start the tournament expectations over....

Exactly I love my plastic coins. :D:D

Good responses..... Rooster any thing out the normal has to be announced and I would think a tournament AM would want to watch the pros, of any level, to learn. But if a am didn't want to watch, he would have time for whatever.
Wouldn't this format be a way to get those ams that aren't ams to make that that jump? ( and no I am not trying to make the pro pool bigger, I am suggesting make the sanbagger pool smaller) I know this might make the touring AM( which I don't understand anyways) stick to Am only tournaments, but it will give the true local AM the opertunity to play a local event thats is not so demanding.

At the Illinois Open Series last year [and this year, too] we paid the ams in metal coins (http://discontinuum.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=944&st=60&#entry12171). Scroll up or down for the picture.

I watch the pros play more than most ams and have found it beneficial. I enjoy watching the pros play. But if I'm 300 or more miles from home and need to have a productive day at work tomorrow, I don't like being told, "No, you have to wait five hours for your two frisbees."

As a TD my attitude, therefore, is, "I understand. Here's your Bag o' Brass. Thanks for playing. The girl there can help you find what you want," even if I know the guy only has a 30 minute drive and the pros will be in in 15 minutes.

I do enjoy watching top pros play. I like the way it was set up at Texas States...with staggered starts. That way, when the AMs finished their final rounds on Sunday, we were able to watch the Pros finish up on their final 9.

There was very little delay in getting the final standings announced and prizes handed out.

I think staggered starts or shifted starting times would be a better option. If you are running on 2 courses, have the AMs start ahead of the Pros, so they finish up about an Hour early. They can watch the pros finish up while you calculate finish and payout, then the Pros scores can be finalized while the Am winners are announced, then the Pros can be announced, then the Ams can pick up their plastic.

Good idea.....on paying the AM in the form of a voucher.Why is an AM traveling 300miles to an event?
If he is willing to put a car through that abuse, pay for gas,take the time to travel that far.......is he really an Am or is he someone that enjoys that course, the event itself and the town. So I don't see where that player would want to leave early. Or is he sandbagging in his division and is willing to put up that kind of overhead to benefit his stack of disc.
I can see in this format where after the ams play the Sunday morning round, could get paid out and could leave early if they like. I am trying to lay out a format that benefits all. That is why I like the pay them out when they are done.

Vinnie,
If you're talking a two day event, it would be a lot easier to sell having the ams play 3 rounds and watch only the 4th rather than play 2 and watching 2. You'll still get your gallery for the final and most exciting round and the Ams will be much happier.

That would probably work better.

I would also make an effort to have an updated leader board visible to the crowd so they will have an idea of which players are having to make a move and which players are trying to protect a lead. It is always more interesting when you know a player needs to make up a stroke to explain a risky shot or why a player plays a safe shot up the middle just going for the easy par.

There we go! All good inputs
3rounds are good and of course a production for the gallery to be involved.
The things I am trying to develop (and the minds are here to tap)
*Gallery (non player/player)
*Increase attendance
*Increase the Amateur base (by running off the sandbaggers)
It is due time T.D.�s get out of the same old format and take the sport to a new level.

Who are these sandbaggers you keep talking about and what happened to that good old Texas machismo if your advanced players won't show up to play against the best amateurs in their region?

The things I am trying to develop (and the minds are here to tap)
*Gallery (non player/player)
*Increase attendance
*Increase the Amateur base (by running off the sandbaggers)
It is due time T.D.�s get out of the same old format and take the sport to a new level.


The enthusiasm you are bring is admirable, but some of your attitudes are as old school as the format you want to get away from. My advice to you if you intend to increase the amateur base is to lay off the sandbagger talk. Nothing like telling your potential amateur players that they're going to get crap for winning your event. The "run off the sandbaggers" attitude is counter-productive, IMO, since if you succeed in running off the "first wave", the next wave of tournament winners won't be far behind them to the point where some people might actually be wary of entering for fear of winning and taking unnecessary abuse.

You want to end the "sandbagger" perception...cut off the gravy train at the top of the division. Low entry, player pack to all, and low flat payouts. IMO, lower entry fee might convince a few new people to try it out when they otherwise might not have. And if you have to lure of watching those top players AND playing 3 fun rounds of competitive golf for a low price, you might just build that gallery with more enthusiastic observers, rather than reluctant folks who just want their bag of loot.

--Josh

All good words!

Low entry, player pack to all, and low flat payouts. IMO, lower entry fee might convince a few new people to try it out when they otherwise might not have.
This is a forsure....
The word Sandbagger is a harsh word. But with the current system, the word has to be spoken.
I think the answer is in lower entry and flat payouts.
Thanks
I am really looking for more T.D.'s to join in on a new format and keep it consistant.

I liked the way that the Red Rock Show was ran last year-3 rounds and a final 9 for those who cashed. It gave everyone a chance to either leave early or watch the pros play a final 9. The only thing that I would like to see is vouchers being passed out before the pros final 9 is played, that way the people that cashed have either option. Now as far as the format that Vinnie was talking about -(AMs playing saturday morning and sunday morning.) I dont really agree with that- we like to party too. If it has to be like Vinnie stated then lets be fair about it- have AMs play saturday afternoon and sunday morning instead of Sat. AM and Sunday AM.

thanks for the suggestion.
I am making note of all and considering doing an event this year with a "lets say" new format :D

If you were going to limit Ams to 2 rounds across 2 days, I would think the Saturday late and Sunday early format would be a good idea. On-site Am registration would take place while the Pros were out on their morning round, promoting some galleries. The morning round of mostly 3-somes would go quickly so it could start later than normal. All Pros should allow for a shorter players meeting. If lunch is on the course, the second round players meeting could be combined with lunch.

It would save the AMs one hotel night as well.

I like it

If you were going to limit Ams to 2 rounds across 2 days, I would think the Saturday late and Sunday early format would be a good idea.



This would also give the Pros a chance to get out and watch people who still play simply for the love of the game! :eek:

The downside of the afternoon start for Ams is the inability for them to practice the course while the pros are playing and many locations don't have a decent practice area other than the course.

Thats true with the exception of tournaments which are played on two courses.

thanks for everyone's help...and I will keep everyone posted on the progress