For those of you that missed it, check out the MSDGC thread for a letter from PDGA HQ to Jason Southwick about the MSDGC's NT status. In the letter it states that:

Please also be advised that Jason is now on the verge of facing further disciplinary action by the PDGA under Article 10, Section 1 of the Constitution for bringing the association, its staff, and volunteers into public disrepute and thereby "working against the principles of the PDGA, or injuring the good standing of another Active or Supporting member." Should the PDGA read or otherwise learn of any further inflammatory posts or comments made by Jason, the PDGA will have no choice but to move forward
with disciplinary process against him.

http://www.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=258071&page=&view=&sb=5&o =&fpart=8&vc=1 - MSDGC thread link

Read up the thread and you will find that Jason is, well, let's just say he isn't the biggest fan of Brian Hoeniger. Comments were made that most definitely would be considered inflammatory. As far as 'injuring the good standing of another active or supporting member', well, I would think you could spank half the members that post on this board if you really wanted to obey the letter of that law.

However, (and you had to know there was a 'however' coming) would it not be considered hypocrisy if the above-mentioned 'Guru' has also made comments on this very board that could certainly be considered 'inflammatory' and 'working against the principles of the PDGA' and even 'bringing the association, its staff, and volunteers into public disrepute'?



8/27/04 3:47 pm
Chuck what does your comment have to do with anything except the fact that too many years of US capitalist imperialism/global bullying has made for a most inequitable world?




http://www.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=229621&page=&view=&sb=5&o =&fpart=1&vc=1 - read more comments here

I also seem to remember some comments made on one of the 'political' threads, but for some reason can't find them now. Hmmm....

I am not here to defend Jason, and as you'll see on the MSDGC thread, Jason has begun to take steps to clear the matter up.

My question (if there really is one) is what was done about the posts 'Guru' made, and who (if anyone) holds 'Guru' up to the same standards as the rest of the membership?

The quote you used doesn't fit your argument. I know you can find better ammo than that to use against guru. So go find it and use it.

American policies abroad affect non-Americans a whole lot differently than they affect us US citizens, and that affects the perception of our country. Stating that he feels that US tactics are akin to global bullying is nothing like personal attacks against another specific PDGA member.

I was going to take him to task on that comment but decided his remarks were legitimate and it would just be proving the point about bullying tactics if I did...

I don't recall the PDGA jumping on any club or individual in a n inflammatory manner.

What was wrong with that letter...even the person mentioned admitted being a dumb arse at times...Nothing was wrong with it..our rules exist to promote, not degrade, the PDGA and disc golf.

If we didn't have rules, we might as well all still be up trees flinging crap on each other - Red Foreman

Remember that kid in the school bus who took great joy in pitting one kid against another for no more reason than sick sadist pleasure?

"I bet Jimmy can kick Johnny's but."

That is the essence of most of Dan's posts...

Coming from you Nick, I'll take that as some form of compliment.

Do y'all think it's fine for 'Guru' to badmouth the US (while posting under the moniker of 'PDGA Office' no less) and not even get a slap on the wrist while Southwick is threatened with loss of his PDGA membership for what he said?

The 'Executive Director' of this fine organization should be held to a higher standard, don't you think?

Gary, I put 'The PDGA' in quotes for a reason. As Executive Director, 'Guru' is the highest profile representative of 'The PDGA', and what he says in public could easily be construed as representing the thoughts of the organization.

Similar to how what Dubya says in public is considered representative of the views of the people of the U.S.A.

where I was raised, badmouthing was telling lies about someone to discredit or humilate them. Being embarrassed when someone called you on something you really did was your own fault.

The two references I saw on your links were not far enough from the truth for me to consider them "badmouthing". Maybe a little too much for the "PDGA Office" id, but certainly not too much for a personal ID.

Do y'all think it's fine for 'Guru' to badmouth the US (while posting under the moniker of 'PDGA Office' no less) and not even get a slap on the wrist while Southwick is threatened with loss of his PDGA membership for what he said?



Is the USA, or President Bush a PDGA member?

Do y'all think it's fine for 'Guru' to badmouth the US (while posting under the moniker of 'PDGA Office' no less) and not even get a slap on the wrist while Southwick is threatened with loss of his PDGA membership for what he said?



Is the USA, or President Bush a PDGA member?

I checked. They are not. But now I wonder if Guru's INS caseworker is reading his posts on the message board! :o ;)

Gee, in what might just be a convenient database glitch, several posts on the MSDGC thread and on here have disappeared. Great job, bored monitor.

and we all trust electronic voting with no paper trail! what collosal idiots we are. empires and societies have fallen due to greed, ego, over-indulgence, and a host of other reasons. but i suspect we will be the first to fall from sheer and utter stupidity.

Naw, I'm sure it's been done before. Just not on as grand a scale as automation makes possible.

Quote: "My question (if there really is one) is what was done about the posts 'Guru' made, and who (if anyone) holds 'Guru' up to the same standards as the rest of the membership? "

First of all, I think "trouble-maker" in the re: line would be a great name for a disc!

As for the quote, I guess the answer would be the commissioner and the PDGA board, not us.

As for Guru's anti-US comments, I have absolutely no problem with them at all, and can't imagine anyone mistaking these comments with an official PDGA stance.

I do have a problem with posts disappearing and censorship in general.

Don't worry Kurt, no one could mistake the intent of a comment that gets deleted, anyway. Even if it is posted under the moniker of PDGAOffice.

It is nice to see that my question has been answered. When an alleged monitor of an alleged discussion board deletes posts that he (or another monitor, if it wasn't Nick that did the deleting) was involved in, well, it is poor form, to say the least.

You must have accountability in that position, as ludicrous as it may seem. Any one with a smidgen of common sense would know that.

As for Guru's anti-US comments, I have absolutely no problem with them at all, and can't imagine anyone mistaking these comments with an official PDGA stance.

from where i sit this particular discussion seems a bit overblown. at the same there does seem to be a general underlying situation with the board monitoring activities. while the censorship does feel like its applied on an ad hoc basis, thats probably just the nature of the board. so be it.

i do strongly question the practice of posting anything other than PDGA business under the name "pdgaoffice" or any other name that can create the perception that the post is directly from the PDGA.

i do strongly question the practice of posting anything other than PDGA business under the name "pdgaoffice" or any other name that can create the perception that the post is directly from the PDGA.


This part I agree with. I would like to see Brian create a "Just Brian" account for personal forays into the madness. It's a waste of his time, but if he wants to do it it shouldn't be with "PDGA Office".

As for the censorship, the stupider people get (not the people who are less smart, but the action of all of us getting more stupid) into posting retarded crap on this board, the more things that need deletin'. And then there is always the problem of where to draw the line. When Marty ran the board, he installed a monitor of a decidedly Jesus-persuasion. Marty is about as free-speech as you can get, being tree-hugging hippie from NorCal and all, but suddenly posts were being deleted for questioning creationism! So it all depends on who has the moderator key as to where the line is drawn.

But I will tell you this: the more stupid crap we post, the more that needs to be deleted. Cry all you want abotu censorship, but this isn't a free board. It's paid for by the PDGA. (i.e., those of us pay dues and play PDGA tourneys). The harder it gets to maintain this forum, the better looking the "members only/disc golf topics only" paradigm will become. Think about it. Instead of having to decide if someone calling Bush a liar and thief and murderer is bad enough to delete the post, it suddenly become easy: it's not disc golf so it's gone. Also, with members-only you can actually ban someone without them creating a new account 2 seconds later.

Hey, it is what it is. This is the PDGA website and supposedly DISCussion, but we're a bunch of idiots on here making tons of stupid posts. Actions have consequences.

And there is always rec.sport.disc for swearing and calling Bush a murderer and stuff. That's usenet. That's unmoderated, man.

I have to agree with the last 2 posts too.

Guru, when you post as "PDGA Office" it should be to answer questions about the PDGA or to set the record straight.

Anytime you want to bash us Americans or just post the same garbage that we all do, use GURU or something. That way STUPID topics like this will not be started up.

As far as censorship, being on the reciving end of bashing, I was still against the deletion of the thread. I hate missing the missing posts. Sometimes the old "Big Red Killa" stuff was fun to read.

Actually, 'guru' can post whatever he wants and make a complete [*****] of himself, since the monitor will just cover his [*****] anyway and delete it.

There were posts by 'guru' that were deleted from both this thread and the MSDGC thread yesterday. It sure would be nice to know what the 'Executive Director' had to say, don't you think?

There happens to be a shipload of 'inflammatory' and 'offensive' posts on the Presidential Election thread by one Nick Kight that haven't been deleted.

Actually, 'guru' can post whatever he wants and make a complete [*****] of himself, since the monitor will just cover his [*****] anyway and delete it.

There were posts by 'guru' that were deleted from both this thread and the MSDGC thread yesterday. It sure would be nice to know what the 'Executive Director' had to say, don't you think?

There happens to be a shipload of 'inflammatory' and 'offensive' posts on the Presidential Election thread by one Nick Kight that haven't been deleted.



You are inaccurate Dan. I did not delete any of Brians posts. Posts that reply to "moved" posts also get moved. The thread has been moved back so that folks can judge for themselves who was flaming, bullying and generally being a [*****].

As soon as it is settled, which I thought it had been, I will again remove it, more to the protection of others image than to any of the PDGA BODs or Brian.

Nick Kight
PDGA Message Board Monitor & Assistant Web Master

There is something inherently wrong with Nick Kight being a messafge board moderator. He posts more than anybody and argues more than anybody. And calls more people stupid than anybody else. And he doesn't discuss stuff, he rams his opinions down everyone else's pie-holes.

And he can simply delete your posts if he can't beat you into submission.

I have no idea what y'all are talking about, but where did these posts get moved to?

Would you rather have a course pro who never plays the course or one who is there every day and is mostly playing? Neither option is necessarily best but the latter is probably better. It's rare to find the course pro who is there every day watching and working and rarely playing. They're a few out there, but it would be just as hard to find someone who spends lots of time just monitoring and not posting.

What I would really like is to see the rating updates :o:D

Nick is a course pro? :p

I prefer course pros with easy going temperments and those who are not shocked by strong opinions, criticisms, or extremely tasteless golfers using their course.

Nick is a course pro? :p

I prefer course pros with easy going temperments and those who are not shocked by strong opinions, criticisms, or extremely tasteless golfers using their course.

Seems that he is doing exactly what he complains about. That must really suck to have such a small closed mind. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

James, somehow you missed Chuck's analogy. :confused:

Nick is not a course pro that I'm aware of. However Chuck was saying that just as a course pro can better do his duty by being on the course frequently so can a message board moderator due a better job moderating if he visits the board frequently.
It just so happens Nick is very opinionated and very anxious to share his opinions to all of us(extravert). Nick, for those of you who don't know him, is a decent guy in person who commits himself to the betterment of the sport and his local region.I enjoy being in his group at tournaments as he is encouraging,laid back and witty. He often will drive over an hour to participate in workdays to improve courses in our MADC region. Unfortunately for those of you who only know his cyber persona you may find him abrasive and too strong willed or unwilling to give credence to an opposing viewpoint. :( I do find this a shame as I know his (believe it not) kinder, gentler offline self.
Just last night I watched The Wizard of Oz. If you recall the wizard had this menacing on screen presence with smoke and fire and intimidating voice. Well that's Nick's online persona at times (unintentional by the way). Then Dorothy pulls back the curtain to find a harmless gentle old man who was the voice of the wizard. This old man actually fulfills the wishes of the scarecrow,tinman and lion and sends Dorothy home to Auntie Em.Well that's a little closer to Nick in person. :D

He'll love the 'old man' part, now that he'll be a Master in 2005 :)

Nick is the course pro in Oz? If Dorothy clicks her heels three times, does Nick let her play the course without 2 meter penalty strokes? :p

ps. I have no problem with Nick or his opinions, I'm just not sure that he makes the best monitor.

I'm not sure. Is Dorothy's player rating higher than Nick's ?

I tell you what though, there will be many pro disc golfers after playing Nockamixon in the '05 worlds muttering..there's no place like home....there's no place like home......

I'm not sure if 'course pro' is the best analogy. It's more like having someone play the role of prosecting attorney and judge at the same criminal trial. The lack of separation is where the problem lies.

Or perhaps, to use a PDGA-related analogy, to have someone that is a Marshall at a tournament also be a competitor.

Coming from you Nick, I'll take that as some form of compliment.

Do y'all think it's fine for 'Guru' to badmouth the US (while posting under the moniker of 'PDGA Office' no less) and not even get a slap on the wrist while Southwick is threatened with loss of his PDGA membership for what he said?

The 'Executive Director' of this fine organization should be held to a higher standard, don't you think?

:DI got caught on another of "guru" s comments and then I realized that we are dealing with a canadian that has probably been out of his own country. I realize this doesn't make sense to most so let me explain because it is funny as hell!! The canadians are considered the most ignorant people of the world!! The british find them terribly daft (ignorant) and 97% of americans don't even know or care who the canadian president is because they make no contribution to the world except a few dynamite hockey teams. They are of french descent and I can say this because I have been to france,,,the french are assshols!!! They have the napolian (sp) complex and want to share their hate and discontent with the world by any means,,,,,no matter how illogical the argument. I think its sad. Poor soul just realized that he's canadian!!! I think a moment of silence should be observed. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif :D

I went looking for my posts that were moved. They ended up being in the "You want the truth? YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!" thread!

D'OH! guess it beats being suspended.

Just last night I watched The Wizard of Oz. If you recall the wizard had this menacing on screen presence with smoke and fire and intimidating voice. Well that's Nick's online persona at times (unintentional by the way). Then Dorothy pulls back the curtain to find a harmless gentle old man who was the voice of the wizard. This old man actually fulfills the wishes of the scarecrow,tinman and lion and sends Dorothy home to Auntie Em.Well that's a little closer to Nick in person. :D




So, re Nick:

"Pay no attention to that man behind the posts!" :D

Nick, for those of you who don't know him, is a decent guy in person who commits himself to the betterment of the sport and his local region.I enjoy being in his group at tournaments as he is encouraging,laid back and witty. He often will drive over an hour to participate in workdays to improve courses in our MADC region. Unfortunately for those of you who only know his cyber persona you may find him abrasive and too strong willed or unwilling to give credence to an opposing viewpoint. :( I do find this a shame as I know his (believe it not) kinder, gentler offline self.



I couldn't agree more with this. When it comes to the MADC disc golf club and disc golf in the Mid-Atlantic region, there is no more important a volunteer than Nick Kight. Most of you are likely not aware of his contributions to our sport. He spends a lot of time on the message board and on the course. He has been around the scene for a very long time (over fifteen years) and knows how things work. While his opinions are strong and sometimes brutally honest, I must admit that more times than not he is 100% right on the money. And while his own online persona may be blunt, he is definitely one of the easiest people to talk to face-to-face in real life.

Everyone may not understand that he likely was asked to remove the offending material. As a moderator myself, I know how difficult it is to judge questionable content. While I personally may or may not have have disagreed on the removal, I respect Nick's right as Moderator to do so.

I'm not sure if 'course pro' is the best analogy. It's more like having someone play the role of prosecting attorney and judge at the same criminal trial. The lack of separation is where the problem lies.

Or perhaps, to use a PDGA-related analogy, to have someone that is a Marshall at a tournament also be a competitor.



I have never deleted posts purely based on them disagreeing with my personal views. Accusing me of such behavior I can understand from people who do not know me, but there is no excuse from Dan Howard.

I have never deleted or more accurately moved a post just because it disagreed with me, the closest I came was clearing some static from the MADC Affiliate Club Program thread to uncover an important message I needed to get out about 2005 NE US Scheduling and I wrote a long explanation to the poster whose comments I deleted.

There is absolutely no need to guess at my motivations. I AM RIGHT HERE! PM me if you have a question. Anyone who has knows that I answer them.

There really is some mean-spiritedness going on around here lately. My guess is that it has to do with the state of the US right now, so full of suspicion and fear. America better wake up or who and what we are will disappear like a warm summer's day.

Regards,
Nick Kight

I can't believe this discussion is still going on. Dan is having a field day.

First, Nick also "deleted my posts here." Now, given than I, in general, support the PDGA, and have supported Nick in many of his arguments, including this one, why would he delete my posts?

Every time this happens, i.e. posts disappear, someone comes on and writes about PDGA subplots and control. And every time, within a week, the posts reappear after Theo fixes the server and reestabishes the missing posts/user ids.

Well, I need to get back to work, there's a black helicopter flying around outside my window making sure I'm not doing something I shouldn't be doing.

You goota love it !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
http://www.glamisdunes.com/invision/uploads/post-24-1082571361.jpg
:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

Nick, the point is not whether you deleted posts for those reasons, it's the fact that you could, and those that don't know better would be left to assume intent when there may not be any. When the posts are deleted with no explanation (and if that's a fault of the software then c'est la vie) there will always be unanswered questions. I will echo Jeff's comments above in saying that you do a lot for the sport in the MADC region.

I thought I was clear that I backed your decision to censor the bump n rhyme thread, but that was a more clear cut case than the others. There is a difference between 'great big gooberhead' and *&%&$*#@|}.

Whether they'd like to admit it or not, this forum is the only reasonable means of communication that most of us have about the organization we know and (sometimes) love. 6 pages in the back of DGWN once per quarter doesn't quite cut it for some of us.

Sure, sometimes a phone call is best, but what's a guy to do when he feels his phone calls aren't getting answered? I can't claim to read Jason's mind (and I feel bad for the person that can, haha), but maybe he felt that airing his grievances in public was the best way to get a response. Maybe he felt that there might be other TDs out there with similar feelings who also thought they were put in the same boat. How, other than via DISCussion boards like this, are they to know that?

Here's my take on it:

And I feel to be a cog in something turning
Well maybe it is just the time of year
Or maybe it�s the time of man
I don�t know who l am
But you know life is for learning
We are stardust
We are golden
And we�ve got to get ourselves
Back to the garden

Here's my take on it:

And I feel to be a cog in something turning
Well maybe it is just the time of year
Or maybe it�s the time of man
I don�t know who l am
But you know life is for learning
We are stardust
We are golden
And we�ve got to get ourselves
Back to the garden



I could agree with that Mark.

By the time we got to marshall st.
We were half a million strong
And everywhere there was song and celebration
And I dreamed I saw the golf discs
Riding shotgun in the sky
And they were turning into butterflies
Above our organization
We are stardust
Billion year old carbon
We are golden
Caught in the devil�s bargain
And we�ve got to get ourselves
Back to the garden

aahhhh...I havent heard such overt racism from a fellow disc golfer since I was getting a ride in TN from our rules director and LL. They way they were talking about african americans made my stomach turn and I havent had any respect for them since. It proved to me that you dont have to be ingorant to be a racist.

One of the reasons that I love disc golf is that it is such a great group of people. For those that have been around for a while, they know that the Squeezer Geezer (http://www.ci.arvada.co.us/HTML/disc_golf/discgolf_index.html), for whom I never met, but read an artical in DGWN (before the magazine style formate), would be disappointed to learn that a fellow frisbee player is so narrow minded. Where is "The Most Fun Wins Attitude" in that?
I've never understood racism because there are so many better reasons to hate person on an individual basis. Racism is such a cop out for people who are not willing to get to know people on an individual basis.

Canadian is a race?

of course not, but the concept is the same - a stereotype, is a stereotype, is a stereotype. (meriam-webster - something conforming to a fixed or general pattern; especially : a standardized mental something conforming to a fixed or general pattern; especially : a standardized mental picture that is held in common by members of a group and that represents an oversimplified opinion, prejudiced attitude, or uncritical judgment

it's a shame that you confuse stereotype with the truth /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

I just read back though Minicrusher's post on this issue - how embarrassing. Even if your post was in jest, it was at best in poor taste. I think the word is prejudice and your post was appalling at best. Beyond the fact that it showed a complete ignorance of Canada, its history and educational systems (they actually think being a teacher is an important and honorable profession) it used the "impressions" of the British as a basis of judging an entire country. Heaven forbid that we should judge for ourselves.

BTW - 97% of Americans don't know the President of any country other than their own (including our own President, he has to be briefed). Our own ignorance of the world is hardly a ringing endorsement of our right to judge another.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA this started off as a discussion that was suitable for a Bill Maher show,,,,not the pdga. It's sad when things go this far over simple voicing of opinion. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

they actually think being a teacher is an important and honorable profession

I'm not sure how you arrived at that impression, Lyle, but having studied and pastored for 10 years in the GTA (3 years at Bloor and Jarvis in downtown TO, 2 years at Warden and Sheppard in Scarborough, and 5 years at Torbram and Bovaird in Brampton), that does not at all square with the attitude toward teachers I encountered among undergraduate, graduate, or post-graduate students (or profs, for that matter) at U of T, York, MacMaster, or U. Guelph, or among the lower and middle class congregations, both Anglo-Canadian and immigrant, I served.

Your cavalier attitude about an issue that has caused great harm both here and abroad suggests you might want to study up on the problem. But then again... maybe not.

they actually think being a teacher is an important and honorable profession

I'm not sure how you arrived at that impression, Lyle, but having studied and pastored for 10 years in the GTA (3 years at Bloor and Jarvis in downtown TO, 2 years at Warden and Sheppard in Scarborough, and 5 years at Torbram and Bovaird in Brampton), that does not at all square with the attitude toward teachers I encountered among undergraduate, graduate, or post-graduate students (or profs, for that matter) at U of T, York, MacMaster, or U. Guelph, or among the lower and middle class congregations, both Anglo-Canadian and immigrant, I served.



I have yet to meet a student from any culture, other than Asian, who treats their teachers with high regard in today's world. I taught undergrads at St. Johns in New York and Oregon State University and grad and medical students at Tufts in Boston. As a measure of whether a country values education, I would say student attitude would be a poor one.

My experience comes from three sources. Students I attended grad school with who went to McGill and Queens (it might have been Kings), news articles, and research on the web.

First, Canadian students rate much nearer to the top on average as opposed to students from, say America. Presumably this is because the country places an emphasis on good education but that could be wrong. However, my experience is that in general this is true. Second, the pay level of teachers there is more in line with other professions of equal education (this may be incorrect but that's what the reporter said). I don't know how that translates to private schools. Third, the people I worked with felt that teachers there did not fall back on education as a last choice (which we hear is often the case in the U.S.) but instead pursued that profession as people here might pursue professions in more prestigious areas. Finally, the people I knew taught college in Canada and felt indeed that Canadians placed a higher value on their positions than Americans do.

Now some of this might be incorrect but the numbers don't lie. Canadian students (high school) do better than U.S. students in Math Science and Writing (maybe others, I didn't spend a lot of time looking), and are near the top relative to other countries. That doesn't just happen; it takes dedication on the part of the government and those involved in educational to make it work. Based on this, I feel comfortable with my statement that Canada values its teachers (and I will add in education) more than America does.

I will accept any evidence you can show that this is not true but would proffer the observation that our reputation in this area is not good. Generally it is acknowledged that we do a bad job up through high school, a good job through college, and an excellent job at the graduate level. I heard this repeatedly in graduate school from numerous sources and am therefore comfortable with it. However, in my original post I was referring to education up through high school and our approach to teachers at that level.

To finish, while your point may have some relevance, I think you missed the gist of my post. Minicrusher was deriding Canada as a sub par, stupid country with poorly educated people. Am I to assume that you agree with that observation? Perhaps my way of saying I disagreed was not the best so let me amend. I disagree; my personal experience is that the Canadians I have met were intelligent careful thinkers who were well educated and at least on par with what I've seen in the U.S. In general they were much more worldly (understood what was happening outside their country) than Americans of similar education.

Never mind.

Minicrusher was deriding Canada as a sub par, stupid country with poorly educated people.

Not true at all. Minicrusher was deriding Canada for having an ineffective navy.



You need to read back a little more.


I got caught on another of "guru" s comments and then I realized that we are dealing with a canadian that has probably been out of his own country. I realize this doesn't make sense to most so let me explain because it is funny as hell!! The canadians are considered the most ignorant people of the world!! The british find them terribly daft (ignorant) and 97% of americans don't even know or care who the canadian president is because they make no contribution to the world except a few dynamite hockey teams. They are of french descent and I can say this because I have been to france,,,the french are assshols!!! They have the napolian (sp) complex and want to share their hate and discontent with the world by any means,,,,,no matter how illogical the argument. I think its sad. Poor soul just realized that he's canadian!!! I think a moment of silence should be observed.



Now I understand that Minicrusher's post was made in jest. I understand that this was a joke. On the other hand, so were the black jokes I was told and am still told to this day. When I point out to the teller that in today's world such things are inappropriate I get "well it's just a joke." I apologize for finding such jokes unfunny and in fact offensive. I know that in today's America whipping up on anyone who is less powerful than we are is considered de rigueur but I kind of liked the old way when it was the powerful who were supposed to protect the rights of the weak. In my book, this includes not referring to anyone who you think as less than you as ignorant or daft, even in jest.

My posts specifically addressed his assertion that Canadians were daft and considered ignorant. I hate to be the purveyor of bad news but most people (non-American) consider us to be ignorant and a little daft. This may be due to our complete disregard for other countries, their beliefs, and their rights but then again maybe they hate us because we are truly superior.

Now it is getting good. No more childish finger pointing and we are starting to hear people elaborate and disect the subject with there own personal experience and information documented. It should get interesting now! Lets hear your rebutle Minicrusher.

Oh and by the way Lyle, he is a she.

Well, finally someone who has a sense of humor!!!This is quite interesting to me. I originally read one of the nasty absurd posts on this thread by the pdga monitor in Canada who was bashing the USA. Well,,,,he had his say and now I am going to say this and of course these are my views and I speak for no one else. I served my country,,,,,what have you done for yours besides make a total asss of yourself? You seem quite proud of your education system,,,, what a joke. Maybe if the US stopped helping countries out financially we could spend more to educate the American people,,,,but for some reason the powers that be want to make certain that other countries have fresh water and food. I am not saying this because I am angry about foreign policy, I am trying to prove a point that even though we may not have the best educational system of the world,,,,at least we get out and help and although this seems a bit simplistic at best,,,,I'm just not entirely certain that your small mind could comprehend any more. If this seems like I am stereotyping,,,I AM and I will tell you why. I have been to canada and have run into canadians while traveling the world and I can tell you this,,,,,I have to stereotype because I haven't found one yet that didn't appear to have an enormous stick up their assss! Maybe it's the french descent,,,I don't know :D:D:D:D/msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Couldn't tell since she hasn't posted a bio. When in doubt I tend to fall back on he since 90% of disc golfers are male. It would have been better to see he/she.

Couldn't tell since she hasn't posted a bio. When in doubt I tend to fall back on he since 90% of disc golfers are male. It would have been better to see he/she.



You weren't stereotyping there, were you Lyle? :D

now thats funny!!! :D:D:D:D

I am FLMAO rolling on the floor. Dude, you gotta quit doing that while I am at work.

Mini,

You need to do a couple of things. First, you need to go back and read my posts and second you need to go back and read Brian's posts. Third, you need to understand that prejudice is bad no matter what the context or situation.

Brian's comment that the good old U.S.A. is a little arrogant, and could do with a little humility, is based on our (yes indeed, I'm an American, not a Canadian) actions in the world. If Brian had made a misstatement as to our well-earned reputation then I would have told him so.

Brian's desire that our Olympic Basketball team take a drubbing seems at best a non-factor, but then again I have to admit I don't find it offensive since I also like seeing them take it on the chin. That might be because I find the current style of American basketball to be self centered and - well - boring. That Brian is resentful of American arrogance doesn't offend me because it is human nature to dislike those we perceive as bullies. If his resentment weren't based on fact, then I would have a problem with it.

Your apparent notion that the only way to serve your country is by joining the military (I assume that is what you meant) is a sad commentary on our current conservative belief that the only way to serve our country is by signing up to shoot those who don't support us. That belies the contributions made by Lincoln, Hamilton, Franklin, Roosevelt (not Teddy), Edison, King, Einstein, and many others who did not see military action (I will be honest, I did not check all of these carefully but I am willing to bet there have been many great Americans who have never served). Don't get me wrong, I appreciate those who have served, but I fully recognize that they, in the end, can also do great harm. Ask the villagers in Viet Nam who were raped and murdered about their trust of American soldiers. Ask the Iraqis who have been robbed killed or beaten by our soldiers if they think they are serving the best needs of the world. Yes I know, these are war situations but for a different approach, ask the Japanese school girls who were raped by American soldiers just a couple of years ago how they feel about the topic (our military set the soldiers free). Or even better, ask the female cadets at the Air Force Academy how they felt about being raped and then told to shut up about it. Serving in the military doesn't make one a Saint or give one exclusive rights to judge others, either within America or outside of our borders. Nor does it mean that you have best served America's values.

To put it on a more global scale, after WWII almost every conflict we have been involved in had more of a basis in economics than in spreading our rights and freedoms throughout the world. We might not see that, but the rest of the world does.

Your idea that America goes around the world doing good has some merit. However, that good often... usually, comes with a price tag. Often the cost is that you do business on our terms. That means giving us access to your labor and to your natural resources, and that you open up your industries to American companies who often enough have received huge benefits from our government and therefore can compete at a higher level than your companies can.

Since we started seriously giving out rebuilding loans through the World Bank the level of poverty and the standard of living in every country that we have given money to, has gone down. Ouch!

As for the food and other types of support given, you might be surprised to find that most of that comes from NGOs, and while American charities do a good bit of this, I wouldn't be shocked to learn that we don't do any more than any other group of countries that represents the same level of wealth that we do. In fact, the numbers I have read are consistent with the idea that we do significantly less based on our wealth, but I admit I haven't looked in a few years.

You will be surprised to find out that many counties indeed are wishing that they had never taken money from us. Take for example Chile, whose economy was destroyed by the rules we fostered on them in return for bank loans from the World Bank.

Finally, the level of foreign aid we give out is paltry compared to what we spend on any given item in America. The solution to our education problems will come about when we realize that half our money goes to military spending, of which a significant portion is pork barrel or flat useless (see the osprey aircraft, the patriot missile or the current antimissile project).

As to your notion that I have a small mind, I agree with you, especially when I compare it to those of our founding fathers who set up a country on the basis of treating all humans with respect. Those guys looked centuries down the road and knew what was coming and built a form of government and laws that would ultimately ensure that would happen. Just as during the McCarthy era, we will discover that the current administration is sick and diseased; and at that time, using the law structure laid down by those people we will fix the problems they are currently creating for us.

Finally, it seems you are very well traveled. Apparently you have met every Canadian (or at least more than 50% of them), as you feel comfortable labeling every one of them. Or could it be that you've just met a few and have drawn some generalized conclusions based on little or no fact? Furthermore, your apparent assertion that all Canadians are of French descent is a little off. While there is a significant population of French Canadians, there are also quiet a few of English descent and recently a burgeoning Asian population. As for French arrogance per say, I'll give you American, British, Japanese, German, Spanish, Russian or perhaps Chinese arrogance to compare it to. My impression is that most people have a tad too much of it and that no one has a corner on the market.

Excellent point Dan, and in fact I was being lazy. Are you telling me that now makes it O.K. for Mini to stereotype?

No more so than it makes it ok for someone to take something meant as a joke and turn it into a diatribe against global nationalism as it relates to world trade agreements. Or whatever the hell it was that I just read.

People really need to laugh more and get offended less. It would make the world a happier place.

wow,,,nice. I personally thought the boat thing was funny but apparently others have no sense of humor!!! Someone needs to post something funny instead of an argument that probably came straight out of a political science book!! :D:D:D:D:D

Again Dan,

It depends on the joke. In 1960 if someone told you a black joke you laughed. It was funny. Today we realize it's wrong. Currently in this country we have a tendancy to laugh at other countries that disagree with us, to tell jokes about them. Instead we might ask ourselves why they disagree with us.

Our notion that anything said in jest is O.K., and that we should just accept it, belies our own response when people joke about us. For example, Mini's initial response was to Brian's post directed towards America and her bullying. She didn't laugh at his joke because she took it personally. She responded with a fairly vindictive post that followed your own post that seemed more than a little irritated at Brian and his bashing of America. It is easy enough to tell the other guy to take a chill pill when you're joking about his culture and beliefs but not so easy to take it when the joke is directed towards your own.

It took us a while to get here but I knew we would. You see, Brian's post was a joke. He was having a laugh. So Mini and Dan, sit back, relax, and have a laugh, it was just a joke. :D

Hey Lyle,,,,eat me. You wouldn't know a joke if it jumped up and bit you in your boring asss. :D:D:D:D:D:D:D

Coming from you Nick, I'll take that as some form of compliment.

Do y'all think it's fine for 'Guru' to badmouth the US (while posting under the moniker of 'PDGA Office' no less) and not even get a slap on the wrist while Southwick is threatened with loss of his PDGA membership for what he said?

The 'Executive Director' of this fine organization should be held to a higher standard, don't you think?

I think this is the point of it all Lyle. Dan has got it right. :D:D

Hey Lyle,,,,eat me. You wouldn't know a joke if it jumped up and bit you in your boring asss. :D:D:D:D:D:D:D



Is that an offer?

like you would know how to do it right anyway. Stick to your patient wife and don't toy with me,,,I'll wipe the floor with you!!! :o:o:o:o:D:D:D:D/msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

That's a very thin line you're walking there...

Coming from you Nick, I'll take that as some form of compliment.

Do y'all think it's fine for 'Guru' to badmouth the US (while posting under the moniker of 'PDGA Office' no less) and not even get a slap on the wrist while Southwick is threatened with loss of his PDGA membership for what he said?

The 'Executive Director' of this fine organization should be held to a higher standard, don't you think?

I think this is the point of it all Lyle. Dan has got it right. :D:D



Wait, now I'm really confused, I thought it was all a joke. Are you now telling me your posts were serious.

BTW - Buell, Japanese or European?

Nokia - Japenese or European ?

Couldn't resist,

Some people think that saying rude things makes them sophisticated and... not boring.

But you are correct Gary, it was inappropriate, my sincerest apologies Mini.

ok,,,apparently I can't joke with you. This is ridiculous. I use to ride a suzuki gsx-r 600,,,,awaiting the new toy!!!!! I think the hollidays do something to people that puts them a little bit on edge,,,,,are we all done cuz I don't see an end to this. We should all agree to disagree,,,,but my point has been that if the dude wanted to joke around by bashing the US then go and get your own name and stop posting under the Pdga office. That should be for business related to disc golf and not opinions about the situation of the US in a global sense, joking or not. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

I thought that point had already been made and generally agreed to. :cool:

ya I thought so too but then along came the political science lesson from Lyle. :D:D/msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif :p :p

It depends on the joke. In 1960 if someone told you a black joke you laughed. It was funny. Today we realize it's wrong.



Depends on the joke, if it's funny, I laugh. If it's a funny blonde joke, I laugh. If it's a funny joke at my expense, I laugh.

Laughter is the world's best medicine. Well, after Levitra it is.

Dang, the stuff you miss if you don't read this all day long...

If I read Lyle's lecture correctly, seems like the good old US of A deserves to be blamed for all the problems in the world. That's OK, but remember, if you are gonna blame someone for the problems, you can't complain when they do something to fix it...even if you think it the wrong thing...unless you are too in touch with your feminine side...(Reminds me of a joke my sweetie told me: If a man is alone in a forest, is he still wrong?)

As for laughing at inappropriate jokes...ever heard of "guilty pleasure"??? And why is it so funny when we watch a video of a guy getting racked in the 'nads? Seems pretty insensitive of us all to me....

And finally, yes, personal opinions should not be made with a corporate account...your employer wouldn't be too happy if they found out you were sending personal opinion letters on Company letterhead...why are we surprised that the PDGA membership reacts the same way?

OK...carry on children...I want to boost my post count and quit looking like a newbie.

First, Canadian students rate much nearer to the top on average as opposed to students from, say America. Presumably this is because the country places an emphasis on good education but that could be wrong.

That seems to me to be a fairly large logical leap. I can think of several systemic factors in Ontario's (or, more particularly, the Region of Peel's) educational system that may skew the test results, e.g., the segregation of students beginning at the Grade 9 level into "pre-university" and "vocational" tracks.


Second, the pay level of teachers there is more in line with other professions of equal education (this may be incorrect but that's what the reporter said).

That may be the case, however, it is possible that the reasons are systemic rather than attitudinal. It is the case in eight provinces and the two territories that base salaries and benefits for teachers are negotiated at the provincial level rather than at the local level, and that in the remaining 3 provinces (Manitoba, Alberta, Ontario), salaries are negotiated on a regional basis rather than the local level. On one hand, that approach reduces the salary disparities between boards and districts; on the other hand, it tends to inflate salaries since it makes the highest cost of living in a given province or region the baseline for negotiations. So the fact that teachers' salaries may be more commensurate with those of other professions may be more a reflection of the structural dynamics of Canadian approach to educational funding than a reflection of the esteem in which teachers and teaching is held.


Third, the people I worked with felt that teachers there did not fall back on education as a last choice (which we hear is often the case in the U.S.) but instead pursued that profession as people here might pursue professions in more prestigious areas.

That's interesting, because a common sentiment voiced by both Arts and Sciences undergrads and grad students at U of T (at least those I met) was, "If you can, do; if you can't, teach; if you can't teach, go to OISE" (Ontario Institute for Studies in Education, the U of T's teachers' college and school of educational research; and even the Toronto Star, a self-designated pro-Liberal party daily newpaper, disparages OISE in print with depressing regularity.)


Finally, the people I knew taught college in Canada and felt indeed that Canadians placed a higher value on their positions than Americans do.

Are they Canadians or Americans? Might their perception be colored by their nationality?


Now some of this might be incorrect but the numbers don't lie. Canadian students (high school) do better than U.S. students in Math Science and Writing (maybe others, I didn't spend a lot of time looking), and are near the top relative to other countries. That doesn't just happen; it takes dedication on the part of the government and those involved in educational to make it work.

Actually, the numbes can, and, at times, do lie, and this may be an example. Do you know whether the Canadian scores reflect the entire Canadian high school student population or just that of the pre-university track population?


my personal experience is that the Canadians I have met were intelligent careful thinkers who were well educated and at least on par with what I've seen in the U.S. In general they were much more worldly (understood what was happening outside their country) than Americans of similar education.

I don't disagree with that as a general characterization; however, I've met my share of insular, less-than-enlightened Canadians as well, which basically just shows that both countries have their fair share of morons and bozos. :)

(I would point out, too, that where you met those Canadians may skew your impression of Canadians generally. Obviously, the population of Canadians studying or teaching at American universities is, in some ways, atypical when compared to Canadians studying/teaching in Canadian universities (not to mention non-university-educated Canadians). If all or most of the Canadians you have were met were met at American universities, then they are, virtue of the fact that they are studying/teaching at an American university, less insular/more cosmopolitan than either their compatriots who have studied/taught exclusively in Canada or their American colleagues at those institutions.)

None of this is intended to disparage Canadians or Canadian education. It is, however, to observe that, owing to structural differences between American and Canadian approaches to education, it is extremely difficult, and perhaps rash, to attempt to generalize the relative social standing of teachers between the two countries.

dang, Lyle's having a rough week on the board


my personal experience is that the Canadians I have met were intelligent careful thinkers who were well educated and at least on par with what I've seen in the U.S. In general they were much more worldly (understood what was happening outside their country) than Americans of similar education.

hmmm... so that would be a generalization resultig from the observation of the behaviour of a few, wouldnt it? whats the word for that again?

after a couple of cracks upon the noggin due to several motorcycle wrecks,,,you were able to elaborate on a subject that I could not. Thank you. :D:D:D

Canada has its' share of red-necks just like anywhere else in the world. Mini-crusher, your mistake is assuming that every Canadian is like the few you have met. I'm not French, but I have some French in my bloodlines along with Irish, Scot, Norwegian just to name a few. I'm sure most Americans can boast the same melting pot background. In any case it isn't even relevant. I've me a ton of Americans and wouldn't even consider making assumptions on a whole population, but if you want to go ahead. Ignorance can sometimes be bliss. BTW, we have a Prime Minister, not a President :D

Waiting for someone to bring that up. I'm glad I was not the only one that noticed it.

It's not a mistake,,,,,thats what makes it funny!!! Lighten up,,,,have a beer,,,,a smoke,,,maybe some warm milk.......use your imagination!!!! :D:D:D/msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif :p :p :p :p

Stereo Typing is just WRONG. Admit it mini. You are wrong to stereo type and assume just like Lyle!!!!!!!

So simple yet it continues to grow like a fungus.

it may be wrong,,,but you can use it to your advantage if your clever. ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)

Stereo Typing. It that typing with both hands at once or do you need two keyboards?

Gary,

I'm glad you said that, because I was gonna make a fool of myself with some dumb-*** remark...you beat me to it!

Thanks!!!

That would be typing with equal space between the left hand and left ear as well as the right hand and right ear resulting in a stereophonic ambience not equavalent to a mono channel.

Yeah I have typo's butt when your screaming off tens of thousands of words a day its easy to do.

do you need some cheese??? :D:D/msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif :p :p :p :p

Gary,

I'm glad you said that, because I was gonna make a fool of myself with some dumb-*** remark...you beat me to it!

Thanks!!!



Well, it was just sitting there and somebody had to do it....

ok,,,apparently I can't joke with you. This is ridiculous. I use to ride a suzuki gsx-r 600,,,,awaiting the new toy!!!!! I think the hollidays do something to people that puts them a little bit on edge,,,,,are we all done cuz I don't see an end to this. We should all agree to disagree,,,,but my point has been that if the dude wanted to joke around by bashing the US then go and get your own name and stop posting under the Pdga office. That should be for business related to disc golf and not opinions about the situation of the US in a global sense, joking or not. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif



Oh you can joke with me, it just depends on the topic and your definition of a joke. Mine is different than most...

Dang, the stuff you miss if you don't read this all day long...

If I read Lyle's lecture correctly, seems like the good old US of A deserves to be blamed for all the problems in the world. That's OK, but remember, if you are gonna blame someone for the problems, you can't complain when they do something to fix it...even if you think it the wrong thing...unless you are too in touch with your feminine side...(Reminds me of a joke my sweetie told me: If a man is alone in a forest, is he still wrong?)

As for laughing at inappropriate jokes...ever heard of "guilty pleasure"??? And why is it so funny when we watch a video of a guy getting racked in the 'nads? Seems pretty insensitive of us all to me....

And finally, yes, personal opinions should not be made with a corporate account...your employer wouldn't be too happy if they found out you were sending personal opinion letters on Company letterhead...why are we surprised that the PDGA membership reacts the same way?

OK...carry on children...I want to boost my post count and quit looking like a newbie.



Don't recall saying that the U.S was to blame for the world's problems. Then again... If I were to say anything, I might say that the U.S. tends to view itself as the world's savior and that might not be true.

Actually, the numbes can, and, at times, do lie, and this may be an example. Do you know whether the Canadian scores reflect the entire Canadian high school student population or just that of the pre-university track population?




Actually, the numbers never lie; they are what they are. In a well-defined experiment, the investigator should tell you the basis of the numbers and where they come from and then it is up to the reader to interpret.

The classic case of this is Newton. His hypothesis concerning the speed of sound was flawed, so he inserted some factors to compensate for the difference and published. Did he lie? Is this fraud? No. Newton carefully showed his model, described his factors and why he used them, and left out no data. It wasn't fraud, just flawed.


That's interesting, because a common sentiment voiced by both Arts and Sciences undergrads and grad students at U of T (at least those I met) was, "If you can, do; if you can't, teach; if you can't teach, go to OISE" (Ontario Institute for Studies in Education, the U of T's teachers' college and school of educational research; and even the Toronto Star, a self-designated pro-Liberal party daily newspaper, disparages OISE in print with depressing regularity.)




But again, isn't this just a small sample? It seems we are at an impasse based on perception, yours vs. mine? Perhaps the problem exists because we have moved from the issue at hand. My interest in the educational systems of Canada is moot at best. I'm much more interested in the notion that people, from all countries, whether America, Canadian, French, or say Russia, are much better at "joking" about other cultures than about accepting joking about their own country. Another way of saying this is that we can have great foresight in judging others, but we often lack it in judging ourselves.

dang, Lyle's having a rough week on the board


my personal experience is that the Canadians I have met were intelligent careful thinkers who were well educated and at least on par with what I've seen in the U.S. In general they were much more worldly (understood what was happening outside their country) than Americans of similar education.

hmmm... so that would be a generalization resultig from the observation of the behavior of a few, wouldn�t it? whats the word for that again?



Quite the opposite, it would have been a generalization if I had said, based on the Canadians I've met all Canadians are intelligent and well educated blah blah blah (of course that would have been false since I've met plenty who were, as stated earlier, rednecks). I did say that the Canadians I had "met" were intelligent blah blah blah. The point being that I've met some intelligent Canadians, thus, the theory that "all" Canadians are sub par would be incorrect. As we know, a scientific theorem is only accepted until a single data point disproving it can be shown.

I fully admit I threw in the �more worldly than the average American� to see how many goats I could grab, but that was all in fun.

Now, if one were to go back through the text, I'm sure that one can find many, shall we say, statements that aren't as carefully worded as they should have been. So, to make it easier, let's go back to the point at hand, is it O.K. to poke fun at another culture while calling it a joke but be unable to take it when someone pokes fun at your own culture? Brian has been well punished for poking at the good old U.S. and we've had some fun bashing and defending but I've noticed that Brian has not come on here to defend Canada, it seems he has little problem with some �in fun� criticism of his own country.

lyle, do you enjoy talking to yourself? just my impression since you've apparently put everyone to sleep with your last four posts. too bad the PDGA likes to take disciplinary action against people when it can't take a joke, which the PDGA is fast becoming. :D

And I thought the new post- ***** threads in the Misc section were useless.

I live in america and I think that we are the WORST country in the world. and I know guru well, and I have more respect for him than just about anyone in the game.

Wow, I live in the USA and think we are the bestest country in the whole wide world. But I also know that we are [*****]-holes and punks to most of the other nations and that we should be trying to be better. But I also know that there are even bigger ******* countries out there that and we can't juts lay down our arms and say "all you dudes are cool". But I do know we could be better to a lot of people.

I guess I just realize that it's a complicated world out there that my good ole US of A has a lot of well deserved criticism coming it's way, as well a lot of wel-earned hatred towards it. But I also know some people will hate us no matter what.

And I don't really know guru, but from the time I spent being the main guy in a tiny corner of the country that pales in comparison to the scope of the job that he does, that I totally respect the job he does and am amazed at how he doesn't juts **** off everyone. Because, let me tell you, most of us disc golfers are a bunch of whining pansies and we whine the most at the people who are busting their arse's for us.

Heres a thought......if you don't like this country and you think it is the "worst country in the world"...why don't you renounce your citizenship?

If this is the worst country in the world why does it have more disc golf courses than all the others combined? :confused:

If it weren't for this horrible country you wouldn't have disc golf as an organized sport, the internet, this forum to ***** on, etc. etc. This is so funny my sides hurt.

Think of how many countries where, if you are heard/read saying, "This is the worst country in the world", you will disappear the next day, never to be seen again. Think about that before you diss the USA. :mad:

I live in america and I think that we are the WORST country in the world. and I know guru well, and I have more respect for him than just about anyone in the game.


As far as "dissing the US," as another poster complained about, I think that's fine, but I would recommend against hyperbole, especially where other people's feelings are concerned. "Worst country in the world?" Really?

You write that you live here, but have you ever been anywhere else? I remember going to Russia on a college trip back in '87, and I had a great time. Still, after being 3 weeks away, I was homesick for the U.S. I didn't even know I was homesick until I was back. Sometimes stepping away and coming back gives you a new perspective. Try going to other countries besides Canada (unless you meant to say we're the worst country in North America).

The US is the best country in the World. It has the smartest and the most imaginitive folks anywhere.

Ironically it also happens to be the worst country in the World with the dumbest and least imaginitive folks anywhere to go along with those other folks.

Don't tread on me!

The USA has a history of being one of the great civilizations to ever have graced this earth. But alas, I fear we have headed down the wrong path and as each day passes, it is getting harder and harder to right the ship. Our forefathers were of pioneering spirit, worked their arses off, and saved every penny they could. The average modern American sits home and watches tv, is approaching obesity, and is in serious debt up to their ears. Our country continues to run up debt at an alarming rate (5 trillion in the last 24 years, roughly 500 billion last year) -- in case you were wondering, that is approx 7 trillion total or approx $23,000 for each and every man, woman, and child in the USA.. Much of the debt is short term meaning if inflation comes back, it will rise even faster as it is refinanced. Amazingly, other countries and their banks have continued to finance our massive debt build-up but recent evidence indicates that our lenders have had about enough and will soon stop answering the call -- where that leads us, I don't know but I suspect no where good. Perhaps it will force us to start balancing a 300-500 billion dollar annual budget deficit -- which likely will derail our economy for a while as it adjusts.

The bottom line is that we have to either cut spending or raise taxes -- we can't keep spending tomorrow's dollars to finance today's expenditures.

But don't expect your favored political party to stop the insanity -- they are both bought and paid for by special interests and have shown no willingness whatsoever to pursue fiscal sanity. Times are such that no politician would dare suggest that taxes be raised and they all want to cut spending but only in someone else's state/district but never in their own. All they do is bicker and play games like 6-year-olds on the sandlot arguing about whose fault it is.

Personally, I am done supporting either one of them -- if there is ever a time when this country needed a third party, it is now.

I hate to be so pessimistic and I still do have hope that we can work our way out of this mess but we had better do it soon or we will be going down like the supposedly unsinkable Titanic.

Ken Jennings will be playing in the tournament of Champions.

lyle, do you enjoy talking to yourself? just my impression since you've apparently put everyone to sleep with your last four posts. too bad the PDGA likes to take disciplinary action against people when it can't take a joke, which the PDGA is fast becoming. :D



That's the difference between you and me UPM. I might bore people to sleep but I try my best not to make them feel small.

Heres a thought......if you don't like this country and you think it is the "worst country in the world"...why don't you renounce your citizenship?



While I tend to agree that America is the best country in the world I also tend to support the position that my father, a stout conservative, supported all his life. As an American he felt it was his job to make America the best place it could be. He felt it was the job of every American to live up to the ideals set down by the founding fathers and other great Americans. Whenever we do not live up to those ideals I feel compelled to do my best to change that in whatever small way I can.

A lot of Americans have fought and died for those ideals and when I see any leader in this country step on the ideals those Americans made the ulitimate sacrifice for, I get a little peeved. Especially when the leaders walk on those ideals while claiming to support them.

As for bashing other countries, I fully feel that all countries have something to offer, even the worst. I also feel that purposefully setting out to bash anyone or anyone's country is in general rude, even when it is a PDGA Administrator doing it. I tend to support Brian anyway because, as I commented earlier, he has a great sense of humor and takes jibes about his own country in good spirit. On the other hand I tend to take jibes directed towards the U.S. in stride, we should be big enough to take it. :D

My general observation has been that people who attack others and other's countries do it to make themselves feel more important or better. If the only way to make yourself feel better is to bash someone else's country or way of life... I tend to feel sorry for you.

BTW � one other reason I take the bashing of America in stride is because we are so liberal with our own bashing of other countries. We are the biggest most powerful country in the world and we make sure everyone else knows it. I subscribe to the Teddy doctrine: "Walk softly but carry a big stick."

Now that we've gotten to this point, I should say, what can we now do to help the PDGA and disc golf? The Jason issue has created a lot of harsh posts that have played out in a number of venues including this one. I for one would like to see some redirection towards a more team spirit and perhaps some healing.

Well, now that I've finished boring UPM yet again I can wrap up. Mikey, I promise to stay away from the political threads and issues, if for no other reason than I would hate to bore you to tears. :D

Mikey, I promise to stay away from the political threads and issues, if for no other reason than I would hate to bore you to tears.



It's always sad to see a grown man cry. Well, almost always... ;)