Here are the top 10 SSA permanent course layouts that can be played without a special setup for an event. I'm not sure about #10 Still Waters Farm if someone would like to confirm that one.

<table border="1"><tr><td> Rank</td><td>Permanent Course Location</td><td>Event</td><td>City</td><td>State</td><td>SSA
</td></tr><tr><td>1</td><td>Renaissance Park</td><td>2003 Disc Landing Fall Finale</td><td>Charlotte</td><td>North Carolina</td><td>69.9
</td></tr><tr><td>2</td><td>Sarasota Golf Club</td><td>2004 Sarasota Sky Pilots Open</td><td>Sarasota</td><td>Florida</td><td>69.6
</td></tr><tr><td>3</td><td>Idlewild</td><td>2004 Disc \'n Dat Bluegrass Open</td><td>Burlington</td><td>Kentucky</td><td>68.5
</td></tr><tr><td>4</td><td>Warwick Town Park</td><td>2002 NYDGC</td><td>Warwick</td><td>New York</td><td>64.9
</td></tr><tr><td>5</td><td>Patapsco Valley State Park</td><td>2002 Patapsco Picnic Rnd 1</td><td>Ellicott City</td><td>Maryland</td><td>64.4
</td></tr><tr><td>6</td><td>Knob Hill Park</td><td>2003 Pittsburgh Flying Disc Open</td><td>Warrendale</td><td>Pennsylvania</td><td>64.0
</td></tr><tr><td>7</td><td>Tyler State Park</td><td>2004 Eric Yetter Memorial</td><td>Newtown</td><td>Pennsylvania</td><td>63.7
</td></tr><tr><td>7</td><td>The Woodshed</td><td>2000 W VA Open</td><td>Paw Paw</td><td>West Virginia</td><td>63.7
</td></tr><tr><td>9</td><td>Whippin\' Post</td><td>2004 Morgan County Hoedown</td><td>Paw Paw</td><td>West Virginia</td><td>63.1
</td></tr><tr><td>10</td><td>Still Waters Farm Disc Golf Course</td><td>2004 TPC at Stillwaters Farm</td><td>Govan</td><td>South Carolina</td><td>63.0
</td></tr><tr><td> </tr></td></table>

Here are the top SSA temporary course layouts that I believe can only be played when set up for an event. I'm not sure about the stats on Canton. I'ts possible that was a 24-hole layout and would not make the list.

<table border="1"><tr><td> Rank</td><td>Temporary Course Layouts</td><td>Event</td><td>City</td><td>State</td><td>SSA
</td></tr><tr><td>1</td><td>Winthrop Univ. Rec. Area</td><td>2004 United States Disc Golf Championship</td><td>Rock Hill</td><td>South Carolina</td><td>75.2
</td></tr><tr><td>2</td><td>Akitas Run</td><td>2001 Ozark Open</td><td>Vichy</td><td>Missouri</td><td>71.3
</td></tr><tr><td>2</td><td>El Rio Golf Course</td><td>2004 Tumbleweed Open</td><td>Tucson</td><td>Arizona</td><td>71.3
</td></tr><tr><td>4</td><td>Silver Creek Ski area</td><td>2000 CO Champ</td><td>Fraser</td><td>Colorado</td><td>67.3
</td></tr><tr><td>5</td><td>The Crucible</td><td>2003 Flying Eye Invitational</td><td>Athens</td><td>Georgia</td><td>65.5
</td></tr><tr><td>6</td><td>Willow Metropark</td><td>2004 California State Ch of Michigan - Sat</td><td>Huron</td><td>Michigan</td><td>65.0
</td></tr><tr><td>7</td><td>Canton</td><td>2003 Hall of Chains Classic</td><td>Canton</td><td>Ohio</td><td>64.8
</td></tr><tr><td>8</td><td>La Mirada Regional Park</td><td>2004 Golden State Classic</td><td>La Mirada</td><td>California</td><td>63.1
</td></tr><tr><td> </tr></td></table>

Chuck, What does SSA stand for?

Scratch Scoring Average, which is what a 1000-rated player would be expected to shoot on average.

Thanks

where can i find a complete list of course ssa's

I played in Still Waters Farm.

It is a permanent par 71 18 hole course located in the middle on nowhere, SC.

The course features lots of 2 and 3 shot holes, USDGC like rope and some water.

The SSA is correct - Walt Haney shot like 66 68 and killed everyone.

where can i find a complete list of course ssa's




You can get them by state by looking them up. Just bring up the scores for an event earlier in the year that has official ratings. Click on the Course Statistics link near the top. That will show you the SSAs for the courses at the event. Then, you'll have the option to look up courses in each state. There's currently no plan to provide SSAs for all courses in a master list.

Knob Hill in the top 10!!!! woohooo

PFDO coming up next weekend. Knob Hill and the long awaited Moraine State Park. Im curious to see if Moraine will crack the top 5 list.

Looking at the results from the Pittsburgh Flying Disc Open on 7/16/05 when the pins were in mostly B and C positions, Moraine State Park had an SSA of about 59 from the shorter White tees, and close to 66 from the longer Blue tees. The latter layout puts Moraine in the top 10 SSA permanent course layouts in the world.

PFDS members recently moved most poleholes into the 'A' pin position so the course is playing a few strokes easier right now. If you are planning a trip to the Pittsburgh area, DO NOT miss the chance to play this world class disc golf course!

Any chance we can see another update to this after the results from the DMDGS finals are added? I refuse to believe that Mason County Pump Storage - Goliath has a SSA below 63 (as 62 and 61 have only been shot 1 time each) [ and the ssa from the first event there was 67.4 ].

Maybe there's a minimum number of rounds required for this?

SSAs are all online for rated events. Just find your course by state: www.pdga.com/tournament/course_ratings_by_course.php (http://www.pdga.com/tournament/course_ratings_by_course.php)

Chuck's list is really more of an informal one. There's no minimum number of rounds to be included.

With regards to the Mason County Pump Storage - Goliath course, it usually plays as 21 or 24 holes, while most of the courses in Chuck's list achieve a high SSA over only 18 holes.

Yeah, it's 24 holes. I didn't realize that was for 18. ****, those are some tough courses.

Moraine ended up being 67.23 just off of our par of 66 we had established for a 1000 rated player. nice

Looking at the results from the Pittsburgh Flying Disc Open on 6/17/06 (http://www.pdga.com/tournament/tournament_results.php?TournID=5507&year=2006&includeRatings=1#Open), Moraine State Park again had an SSA of about 59 from the shorter White tees, and 66.5 from the longer Gold tees. There was a mixture of pin positions.

The latter layout surely puts Moraine in the top 10 SSA permanent course layouts in the world.

So, this layout is permanent, except when it's not there.

Idlewild Longs SSA: 70.42

2006 Disc 'n Dat Bluegrass Open -- Burlington, KY (greater Cincinnati area)

view course statistics: here (http://www.pdga.com/tournament/course_ratings_by_course.php?RatingCourseID=1745)


Here are the top 10 SSA permanent course layouts that can be played without a special setup for an event. I'm not sure about #10 Still Waters Farm if someone would like to confirm that one.

<table border="1"><tr><td> Rank</td><td>Permanent Course Location</td><td>Event</td><td>City</td><td>State</td><td>SSA
</td></tr><tr><td>1</td><td>Renaissance Park</td><td>2003 Disc Landing Fall Finale</td><td>Charlotte</td><td>North Carolina</td><td>69.9
</td></tr><tr><td>2</td><td>Sarasota Golf Club</td><td>2004 Sarasota Sky Pilots Open</td><td>Sarasota</td><td>Florida</td><td>69.6
</td></tr><tr><td>3</td><td>Idlewild</td><td>2004 Disc \'n Dat Bluegrass Open</td><td>Burlington</td><td>Kentucky</td><td>68.5
</td></tr><tr><td>4</td><td>Warwick Town Park</td><td>2002 NYDGC</td><td>Warwick</td><td>New York</td><td>64.9
</td></tr><tr><td>5</td><td>Patapsco Valley State Park</td><td>2002 Patapsco Picnic Rnd 1</td><td>Ellicott City</td><td>Maryland</td><td>64.4
</td></tr><tr><td>6</td><td>Knob Hill Park</td><td>2003 Pittsburgh Flying Disc Open</td><td>Warrendale</td><td>Pennsylvania</td><td>64.0
</td></tr><tr><td>7</td><td>Tyler State Park</td><td>2004 Eric Yetter Memorial</td><td>Newtown</td><td>Pennsylvania</td><td>63.7
</td></tr><tr><td>7</td><td>The Woodshed</td><td>2000 W VA Open</td><td>Paw Paw</td><td>West Virginia</td><td>63.7
</td></tr><tr><td>9</td><td>Whippin\' Post</td><td>2004 Morgan County Hoedown</td><td>Paw Paw</td><td>West Virginia</td><td>63.1
</td></tr><tr><td>10</td><td>Still Waters Farm Disc Golf Course</td><td>2004 TPC at Stillwaters Farm</td><td>Govan</td><td>South Carolina</td><td>63.0
</td></tr><tr><td> </tr></td></table>

Idlewild Longs SSA: 70.42

2006 Disc 'n Dat Bluegrass Open -- Burlington, KY (greater Cincinnati area)

view course statistics: here (http://www.pdga.com/tournament/course_ratings_by_course.php?RatingCourseID=1745)




You got Renaissance by .01! FriZZak Open ratings. (http://www.pdga.com/tournament/course_ratings_by_tournament.php?TournID=5550)

It's the extra 60 feet on I4

Needs to updated to include Nockamixon State Park :cool:

[QUOTE]
Idlewild Longs SSA: 70.42

2006 Disc 'n Dat Bluegrass Open -- Burlington, KY (greater Cincinnati area)

view course statistics: here (http://www.pdga.com/tournament/course_ratings_by_course.php?RatingCourseID=1745)




You got Renaissance by .01! FriZZak Open ratings. (http://www.pdga.com/tournament/course_ratings_by_tournament.php?TournID=5550)




It's the extra 60 feet on I4



do you mean hole 4 (lengthened 64 ft)?

post 2004 hole 2 now has the long across the pond pin and 13 long was lengthened across the creek too and i am not sure we had 16 long pin in place yet for 2004. the walls defining OB by the creek for the greens of hole 3, 15, and 16 long also added a few more challenges into the mix as well...

Needs to updated to include Nockamixon State Park :cool:



Indeed! :cool:

As indicated by the thread title, Chuck's list is from 2004.

Something that probably needs to be considered from a design and operations standpoint is what is acceptable for the length of a round in PDGA play for a course to be played twice in a day. My sense is that 4 hours is the maximum per round to be done twice. That's 8 hours on the course which is about the same as the old school courses where sometimes people play three 18s in a day at 2.5 hours per round for 7.5 hours.

If a course takes more than 4 hours per round, then it should probably move into the one round a day category which is more suitable for stagger start rounds with tee times. Even the Winthrop Gold course takes less than 4 hours to play with an SSA around 68 and it's only played once per day. The other alternative is to play a much shorter course or shorter tees on that course if rounds go over 4 hours from the longs.

We're going to have a challenge for Worlds next year because even our Gold course in the 60 SSA range is rugged enough to take 4 hours to play. At last year's Mid-Nationals, players in the Green division (775-824) took almost 5 hours to play from the shorter White tees. We were planning to boost the SSA to almost 63 on the Gold course for PW2007 but we'll probably need to test the timing during a warmup event a few months ahead of time. Some Open players will potentially play two courses with SSAs of 61 and 63 each taking 4 hours with 90 minutes inbetween.

It would be a real shame if tournament length of rounds could possibly affect the design and operations (tee and pin choices) of courses. At a relaxed pace (even taking a full 30 seconds on most shots) I can play casual rounds by myself on most SSA 45-54 courses in less than two hours. Even as part of a group of 2-4 regulars that I shoot with, that amount of time barely rises. On courses with an SSA of 54 to 66, I've rarely exceeded 3 hours. I play the pro par 66 Moraine S.P. course outside of Pittsburgh and it rarely exceeds 3 hours.

I don't know what it is about tournament golf, but the pace of play has gotten ridiculously slow. I've heard horror stories of 6 and 7-hour rounds at a very popular tournament in my region. Slow play is part of the reason I don't play tournament disc golf anymore.

I'm not saying it should necessarily prevent people from developing courses that exceed 4 hours when more than say 50% loaded for events. However, it should be a consideration as part of many other design issues. After all, ball golfers don't normally expect to play more than one round in a day. I'm not sure our expectations should be much different for our SSA 65+ courses.

One reason for adding the White tees on our Gold course is the time it takes to play from the Gold tees. The Gold course is already the least popular of the courses at Highbridge due to length and scale of the holes. The shortest two courses rule in popularity. But at least playing a 6500-7000 ft round from the Whites is similar in time for playing the Blues at a typical public course.

Here are the top 10 SSA permanent course layouts that can be played without a special setup for an event. I'm not sure about #10 Still Waters Farm if someone would like to confirm that one.

<table border="1"><tr><td> Rank</td><td>Permanent Course Location</td><td>Event</td><td>City</td><td>State</td><td>SSA
</td></tr><tr><td>1</td><td>Renaissance Park</td><td>2003 Disc Landing Fall Finale</td><td>Charlotte</td><td>North Carolina</td><td>69.9
</td></tr><tr><td>2</td><td>Sarasota Golf Club</td><td>2004 Sarasota Sky Pilots Open</td><td>Sarasota</td><td>Florida</td><td>69.6
</td></tr><tr><td>3</td><td>Idlewild</td><td>2004 Disc \'n Dat Bluegrass Open</td><td>Burlington</td><td>Kentucky</td><td>68.5
</td></tr><tr><td>4</td><td>Warwick Town Park</td><td>2002 NYDGC</td><td>Warwick</td><td>New York</td><td>64.9
</td></tr><tr><td>5</td><td>Patapsco Valley State Park</td><td>2002 Patapsco Picnic Rnd 1</td><td>Ellicott City</td><td>Maryland</td><td>64.4
</td></tr><tr><td>6</td><td>Knob Hill Park</td><td>2003 Pittsburgh Flying Disc Open</td><td>Warrendale</td><td>Pennsylvania</td><td>64.0
</td></tr><tr><td>7</td><td>Tyler State Park</td><td>2004 Eric Yetter Memorial</td><td>Newtown</td><td>Pennsylvania</td><td>63.7
</td></tr><tr><td>7</td><td>The Woodshed</td><td>2000 W VA Open</td><td>Paw Paw</td><td>West Virginia</td><td>63.7
</td></tr><tr><td>9</td><td>Whippin\' Post</td><td>2004 Morgan County Hoedown</td><td>Paw Paw</td><td>West Virginia</td><td>63.1
</td></tr><tr><td>10</td><td>Still Waters Farm Disc Golf Course</td><td>2004 TPC at Stillwaters Farm</td><td>Govan</td><td>South Carolina</td><td>63.0
</td></tr><tr><td> </tr></td></table>



Chuck, could you update this chart to bring it to date? i think Idlewild's 70.42 may now be at the top(?)

also, is there a way to get the course statistics page to rank all courses rather than just one course as is the case here (http://www.pdga.com/tournament/course_ratings_by_course.php?RatingCourseID=1745) ?

I'll see about getting an update. Interestingly, I just played #10 on the list yesterday in Govan, SC. This course is in jeopardy of being pulled and Sarasota has been pulled so we'll have some changes to the list.

The Gold course is already the least popular of the courses at Highbridge due to length and scale of the holes.


Say it aint so Chuck! Say it aint so!

<3 Gold.

WHAT?
Gold is the one to play!I hope to go in 2007,if you havn't been there your missing OUT.

Looks like The Red Hawk should be added to that list. The two rounds played from the blue tees for the RHA had SSA's of 66.17 and 65.11 (par 65)

"Liking" and "popularity" aren't necessarily the same thing. I think those who have the game for it, or want the challenge, like the Gold course. It just takes longer to play it so more people play the shorter ones, especially Woodland as the answer to the question, "Got time/energy for just one more?"

If it were a permanent course, The Crucible in Athens, GA would surely make the top ten list. The long tees from the 2006 Flying Eye Open clocked in at SSA 66.4 for 18 holes.

The Crucible (Athens, Georgia) (http://www.pdga.org/tournament/course_ratings_by_course.php?RatingCourseID=2802)

Note that the Gold Tees at Moraine State Park during the 2006 Ironwood Open played to a SSA of 68.9! :eek:

Moraine State Park (Lakeview) (Portersville, Pennsylvania) (http://www.pdga.org/tournament/course_ratings_by_course.php?RatingCourseID=3004)

Yeah unfortunantly half of Moraine's holes are retarded.

Yeah unfortunantly half of Moraine's holes are retarded.



Do we really have to go through this again, Matt?

Dozens of world class players and hundreds of seasoned disc golfers with many more years of experience have played the Moraine course and have not come to that same assessment. Barry Schultz, Avery Jenkins, Kevin McCoy, Coda Hatfield, Jay Reading, Matt Orum, Mike Moser, Justin Jernigan and Al Shack have played it and made no such comments. Course designer Chuck Kennedy has seen it and did not arrive at such a conclusion.

You are really alone on an island here, Matt. You don't have the same knowledge and background in disc golf and course design that many, many others have and it's time you start realizing that. Just because you're the 7th-highest rated golfer in the state of Texas does not mean you automatically know everything about disc golf and especially course design. Furthermore, could you express your view any more rudely? For all the back-breaking hours and blood, sweat and tears the course designers and local PFDS volunteers spent working on that course, your comment is insulting, not to mention extremely insensitive to mentally challenged persons.

Yeah unfortunantly half of Moraine's holes are retarded.



I've never heard of a hole being "retarded."

How can a hole be "retarded?" Please elaborate..

Looks like Houck's course at the IDGC might be a new contender for top 5 highest SSA permanent courses with an estimate near 70. We'll see at the NT. The Steady Ed (North) blue level course came in about 60 SSA when we tested the proposed NT layout on Saturday. I'm estimating it will come in closer to 59 once players know that layout better and more higher rated propagators are included. Hoeniger has the current course record at 60 on this layout.

Yeah unfortunantly half of Moraine's holes are retarded.



Do we really have to go through this again, Matt?

Dozens of world class players and hundreds of seasoned disc golfers with many more years of experience have played the Moraine course and have not come to that same assessment. Barry Schultz, Avery Jenkins, Kevin McCoy, Coda Hatfield, Jay Reading, Matt Orum, Mike Moser, Justin Jernigan and Al Shack have played it and made no such comments. Course designer Chuck Kennedy has seen it and did not arrive at such a conclusion.

You are really alone on an island here, Matt. You don't have the same knowledge and background in disc golf and course design that many, many others have and it's time you start realizing that. Just because you're the 7th-highest rated golfer in the state of Texas does not mean you automatically know everything about disc golf and especially course design. Furthermore, could you express your view any more rudely? For all the back-breaking hours and blood, sweat and tears the course designers and local PFDS volunteers spent working on that course, your comment is insulting, not to mention extremely insensitive to mentally challenged persons.



Unfortunantly I think a few of those guys you mentioned were just being nice because they were the ones I was discussing the "retarded" holes with.

Hole 16(?) is still one of the dumbest holes I have ever played.

1st shot- throw really hard into a wall of pine trees one the side of a hill and hope you get close to the top.

2nd shot- Forehand roller or some other escape shot to get in the open. The funny thing is that i was told that the hole was designed with this in mind.

3rd shot- nice low anhyzer to the basket.

4th shot- make your putt.

The Invisible OB pipes were also really stupid and after throwing a good drive on hole 4 you had to pray you were safe and not in a 12in pipe. The hole was really good besides that.

Hole 6 was ok but really boring and too many of the twiggy trees.

Ok I'm gone fishin.

From the short tee, I think hole 16 is a good hole. Most Open and strong-armed advanced golfers should be able to crest the hill on the drive. Inaccuracy or a weak armed shot will be punished. From the long tee, I agree the hole is unorthodox. Very few disc golfers, if any, can crest the hill, and the second shot is then a forehand roller or other weird escape shot. I also agree that blind drainage pipes should not be OB. Thankfully they only come into play on two holes: #2 and #4. So if you have problems with holes# 2,4,6, and 16, that makes for a total of four. That's hardly "half" of the course! (which would be nine holes)

Honestly Matt, do you even proofread your posts before you click Submit? Do you even care about how you express yourself and how others might react to it? Again, don't you think that statements like "Hole 16(?) is still one of the dumbest holes I have ever played" and "The Invisible OB pipes were also really stupid" would come off as rude and insulting to the course designers and local PFDS volunteers who spent hundreds of back-breaking hours and shed blood, sweat and tears building the course?

Have you seriously not learned one thing about your behavior and attitude on message boards after being lectured about this on the HFDS message board for at least 5 years now? You're 18 years old now, Matt, an adult, and a professional disc golfer, and it's time to start displaying some maturity and respect and start acting like a professional.

Here's how a professional might word things:


Moraine is a great course but I have a problem with a few of the holes. For starters, hole 16 is one of the most unorthodox I've ever seen in disc golf. It feels like you are throwing into a wall of pine trees, and if you don't crest the hill, a forehand roller or some other escape shot is required. I'm told that the hole was designed with this in mind.

I was also discouraged by the blind OB drainage pipes. Sometimes you think you throw a good shot and find out otherwise afterwards.

I also didn't think the par five 6th hole was very interesting, and it could use some trimming.

From the short tee, I think hole 16 is a good hole. Most Open and strong-armed advanced golfers should be able to crest the hill on the drive. Inaccuracy or a weak armed shot will be punished. From the long tee, I agree the hole is unorthodox. Very few disc golfers, if any, can crest the hill, and the second shot is then a forehand roller or other weird escape shot. I also agree that blind drainage pipes should not be OB. Thankfully they only come into play on two holes: #2 and #4. So if you have problems with holes# 2,4,6, and 16, that makes for a total of four. That's hardly "half" of the course! (which would be nine holes)

Honestly Matt, do you even proofread your posts before you click Submit? Do you even care about how you express yourself and how others might react to it? Again, don't you think that statements like "Hole 16(?) is still one of the dumbest holes I have ever played" and "The Invisible OB pipes were also really stupid" would come off as rude and insulting to the course designers and local PFDS volunteers who spent hundreds of back-breaking hours and shed blood, sweat and tears building the course?

Have you seriously not learned one thing about your behavior and attitude on message boards after being lectured about this on the HFDS message board for at least 5 years now? You're 18 years old now, Matt, an adult, and a professional disc golfer, and it's time to start displaying some maturity and respect and start acting like a professional.

Here's how a professional might word things:


Moraine is a great course but I have a problem with a few of the holes. For starters, hole 16 is one of the most unorthodox I've ever seen in disc golf. It feels like you are throwing into a wall of pine trees, and if you don't crest the hill, a forehand roller or some other escape shot is required. I'm told that the hole was designed with this in mind.

I was also discouraged by the blind OB drainage pipes. Sometimes you think you throw a good shot and find out otherwise afterwards.

I also didn't think the par five 6th hole was very interesting, and it could use some trimming.





Nope because that makes me sound like I like the course. :p

I actually liked Knob hill better even though it wasn't as challenging. With the exception of the two criss-cross fairways and that one hole that went straight uphill and across the parking lot it was really fair and straightforward.

I don't remember the hole's number but it was #11-13 at Morain where you had to throw a blind hyzer to that 8ft (probably being generous) gap in the trees. It just didn't seem like the best hole because everyone would throw and just hope they got a good skip or kick. I only saw 2 out of 8 drives get in front of the gap and they both were bad drives that hit the trees long and bounced back. I just thought that hole was unfair because unless you were a local you had no clue how far to throw your drive and just had to make a guess.

I agree with Matt on hole 12 and have said so when I toured the course with J. Gary before PW2005. I think the gaps may have been opened since then making the landing zone larger? There were some other issues on 4, 6, 7, 8, 13 and 18 (besides the hole Matt mentioned) I brought up with hopefully constructive suggestions that may have been addressed since then.

I agree with Matt on hole 12 and have said so when I toured the course with J. Gary before PW2005. I think the gaps may have been opened since then making the landing zone larger? There were some other issues on 4, 6, 7, 8, 13 and 18 (besides the hole Matt mentioned) I brought up with hopefully constructive suggestions that may have been addressed since then.



Hey Chuck if #7 was a big hyzer then it is a decent hole now. The idea behind hole 8 is great but the basket kills me(1 8ft and one 6fter bounced out on me this summer
).

#13 is pretty tight but if you hit the line you will be rewarded. The short tee better than the long tee though and you just have to throw a really good shot from the longs to get to the basket.

#18 was actually ok if you played it safe and a little luck was involved if you wanted to go for the bird.

Hey Chuck if #7 was a big hyzer then it is a decent hole now. The idea behind hole 8 is great but the basket kills me(1 8ft and one 6fter bounced out on me this summer
).





Imagine that....a Texan who favors a big hyzer shot! :D

* * * * * * * * * *

On a serious note, the Lakeview course at Moraine State Park is currently still in development. Chuck played the course when it was only 7-8 months old and Matt played it after it was barely one year old. A lot has changed since then and we have plans for additional improvements this coming spring.

One of the biggest criticisms I read from Matt last year was the OB drainage tubes as well as OB creek beds (marked with yellow rope). The largest concern with the Pennsylvania Department of Conservation and Natural Resources was/is creek bed erosion along the course. Heck, that's why the drainage tubes are there in the first place....installed many years ago to help control erosion throughout the park. DCNR management made it clear to the course designers that they did not want disc golfers on the creek embankments or inside the drain tubes. This is the main reason you see so much yellow rope (as well as a drop zone) on hole 18. The same creek which crosses 18's fairway connects with the right side of hole 1's fairway. Last year, we roped off that entire creek as OB. The thinking was "if this creek is OB on 18, then the same creek should also be OB on hole 1." Well, we've decided we didn't like that idea. We plan to remove that rope from hole 1 and designate that small section of creek as being casual.

Safety of park patrons is the other reason the DCNR wants us to play outside the creek beds. Could the drain tubes have been designated "casual" as opposed to OB? The answer is obviously yes. I believe the rationale behind designating the tubing OB is two fold; 1) the OB penalty should effectively reduce the overall number of discs entering the drainage tubes and 2) the OB would add challenge to the hole(s). As Jeff previously mentioned, there are only two holes where this tubing truly comes into play...holes 2 and 4. If you are an out-of-towner playing the course blind, I could see why some whiny players would complain of "hidden OB tubes". I am a firm believer, however, that someone playing the course blind (or only once, for that matter) doesn't have much room to complain. It is soley a player's responsibility to familiarize themselves with a course before tournament play.

If you were able to visit Lakeview today, you would notice a lot of orange surveyer tape wrapped around trees throughout the course. Holes 6, 8, 14 and 16 are targeted for the most tree removal. We plan to begin removing these trees next month. Tree removal on hole 6 will result in opening the left side of the fairway from tee to green. Hole 8 will have a small tree removed from the corner and the gap will be opened up higher/wider with our trusty pole saws. On hole 16 we plan to widen the landing zones located at the bottom of the hill as well as the top of the hill. Several trees have been flagged for removal at this juncture and we will raise the ceiling accordingly on this challenging par 5 hole. In fact, we'll be raising the ceiling on much of the course.

The scoring data from two years of sanctioned professional play has been invaluable in determining the tweaks needed here and there along the course. Though the SSA's are close to par (66), only two of the holes are not averaging the assigned par and, likewise, are producing poor scoring spreads....holes 9 and hole 11 (both gold tees). For hole 9, the solution is simple....move the tee box forward and raise the ceiling on the hole (we have one tree flagged for removal as well). For hole 11, J Gary has come up with the idea of moving the tee foward and to the right. We will have to remove a few small trees, however, this location to the right will provide a more direct route toward the sloped green with all three pin placements visible from the tee. Last year, only one birdie was carded on this hole with the basket located in the b-pin.

As for the highly criticized hole 12, several trees where removed from the tree line and the ceiling was raised, producing a much larger and more managable landing zone. In addition, a couple more trees have been flagged for removal inside the tree line...opening the gap even more. Hole 12 is the most challenging par 4 on the course, however, the scoring average amongst higher rated players is right in line with how the hole was designed....one shot to landing zone outside trees...second shot to landing zone inside trees....third shot to green, etc.

Hole 14 from the blue tee is currently the easiest par 4 on the course and it's current design is biased toward the RHBH player. We have flagged numerous trees on the left side of the gap. Once opened up, this second gap will provide the option of attacking the fairway from either the right or left side. As a result, we will move the blue tee back about 30 or 40 feet and we will leave the gold tee as is. I think these proposed changes will improve this hole immencely.

Hole 15 will require some major work this spring as we have yet to clear the greens for the B and C pins. The sleeves are installed, but the green needs to be sigificantly widened to utilize these longer pin placements. In the interim, I plan to experiment with casual relief bunkers near the current green. I like the "no-penalty" bunker idea and plan to test the idea in our upcoming Lakeview Course Championship (April 7).

Backtracking to hole 7, the jury is still out on this hole. There is a definite safety issue with this big hilltop shot, especially when considering play from the gold tee. Too many tee shots are landing on or near the tees on hole 10, the fairway of hole 9 and, occasionally, the gold tee on hole 8. Eventually, someone is going to get hit with a disc and that is the main reason this hole should be redesigned altogether.

Contrary to a few people's opinions, I think Lakeview is a wonderful and challenging layout. The diversity of hole design is what makes this course one of my favorites...and with the proposed changes/development (and, hopefully, the addition of concrete tee pads), it's only going to get better!

www.PFDS.org (http://www.PFDS.org)

Thanks for the update. That course has so much potential and I'm glad you're able to work with the Park Dept to make it better and tweak some of the things you've discovered from play and analysis. I look forward to seeing it when I head that way again some day.

I was thinking hole #12 was a par 5. :confused: I only saw one three and is was of an 80ft putt which i would almost consider and eagle. Anyway a 4 is a really good score on that hole.

Nice to hear that you have a new course going in BTW. :D


<font color="red"> Oh and I don't think this hole is a par 5. I got this hole mixed up with hole 15.</font> :D

As for the highly criticized hole 12, several trees where removed from the tree line and the ceiling was raised, producing a much larger and more managable landing zone. In addition, a couple more trees have been flagged for removal inside the tree line...opening the gap even more. Hole 12 is the most challenging par 4 on the course, however, the scoring average amongst higher rated players is right in line with how the hole was designed....one shot to landing zone outside trees...second shot to landing zone inside trees....third shot to green, etc.



Your last sentence portrays this hole as a par five, although from my understanding it was designed as a challenging par four....one well-executed shot to landing zone just outside trees...second shot a long approach shot through the trees to the green, and then a one-putt for a birdie three, two putts for par.

Other than hole#15, this has always been one of my favorite holes on the course. Touring players may complain about the blind landing area, but it only takes a little scouting and /or a practice throw or two to hit the landing area. There has always been a hesitancy to removing too much foliage from this hole to open up the approach shot, which could make this hole too easy. Remember that you can never make a hole tighter - once you've cut too much, it's too late. The park service would also never go for a wide swath of destruction here.

As I've witnessed with the shocking thinning of the South Mountain, Warwick, and Nockamixon courses over the years, residual damage from disc golfer usage takes it toll. If you think a course or a hole is too tight now, just wait a few years. I have no doubts that in time this hole will open to the point where it is looked upon as a fair test of skills and one of the best holes on the course. For now, I concentrate on hitting the landing zone perfectly and setting myself up for the approach shot. Accomplish that, and I've no reason to complain. Miss the landing zone, and you're usually not left with much of a look at an approach - which is the way it should be. :cool:

Your last sentence portrays this hole as a par five, although from my understanding it was designed as a challenging par four....one well-executed shot to landing zone just outside trees...second shot a long approach shot through the trees to the green, and then a one-putt for a birdie three, two putts for par.




[i]Good observation...[i] /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif