In my neck of the woods, Ft. Worth, where alot of this bag tag craziness began, we have an interesting problem and I'm wondering if there are any good ideas on how to deal with it.

Our #1 tag has resided for most of the year on about 5-6 different bags. These guys mostly play adv. and refuse challenges from anyone other than their closest buddies during casual rounds. During the local mini they seem to always be on the same card. I had the tag for one round. The guy I won it off of accused me of fixing the cards so that he would have to play me, he asked me not to take it because his birthday was the next day, he said that he had promised his friend a shot at it so i shouldn't take it and a couple of other excuses that I can't remember.

So the question is; how do we get the #1 tag back out in the open for anyone to take a shot at?

It seems that these guys aren't interested in being the #1 player at the course, just the guy with the #1 tag.

Create a little "tag committee" similar to a kangaroo court that pro sports teams have. This informal "court" is given the power to punish weenies. Alternatively, you could have required mass challenges every so often to prevent inbreeding, require a certain number of defenses per month, or just don't let wimps ever get it in the first place. :p

Set up rules in advance. We have a last place tag (dog collar) that has to be at the Tuesday mini. We do blind draw doubles losing team does CTP for the dog collar gets # of losing player. Thats how I got #1. I'm a rec to early intermediate player. No rating yet.

We had this problem In Tulsa. The pros had the gold tags and would never offer a side challenge to any of the Ams or masters. Once the #1 tag became the property of a Master, they all got together and held it hostage. Only to have the pros actually fix a card so that it could only be won by a pro. Not nice.

The way it was fixed here was to have an un-announced mass challenge at a mini here & there. The other way was to have the TD draw names or randomly count down the list, like every third person is on a card together. This mixed it up fairly well.
The problem was that the Ams didn't really expect to win a tag on the side challenge but just wanted the chance to say they got to play for it.

NAME NAMES

That might be a way. Not that they'd care right off, but after a bit of prodding and 'bagtagbagger' labels they might muster up the sac to be a man and sport the **** thing and actually accept a challenge. I had 30 for a week and promptly lost it the next mini. BIG DEAL. Why anyone would call BUULLLLLSHIRT when I challenge them is beyond me. But it's happened already... it makes me just shrug and think of what a big wussy that person is to be scared of the mighty GB. Rofl.

Oh, and people who leave their tag at home?

Are you kidding me? You bring your discs but not your tag? That is the gayest thing since Liberace. It's not a hometag. Or a apartment tag. IT'S A BAGTAG. Fgts.

The best way is to set up rules in advance. There is a list of rules we used in Oregon the odsa.com website that might help. We (Eugene Bag Tag) played one cannot refuse a challenge unless someone has already challenged and a date set, or cannot rechallenge immediately after losing. Have to go play someone else first then came back for another swing, unless lower tag agrees. We also had a rule you had to challenge with in 20 numbers, unless lower tag agreed. This worked well until I beat the #1 tag but had #22 so dont recommend that one. If they have number one then they should be able to defend versus any challenger. Hope this might help make it what its supposed to be, FUN.

I realize that setting up rules in advance can solve just about any problem. However, I lost the keys to the time machine at our park so here we are in the middle of the situation. Are there any solutions, outside of name calling, that you guys can come up with?

ya, i could name off about ten names of people at z-boaz who just refuse to give me a chance.

This one guy, who is out there every day, gives me a different reason why he is not going to give me a challenge. And one day he actually told me " no you will probably win."

It�s funny how people think that it is some kind of accomplishment to have the number 1 bag tag. If you don't give any real players a chance than it doesn't mean a thing.

I think that before our minis on Sunday that everybody needs to put their tags in a bag and the best score gets the number 1 tag and the worst score gets the worst tag.

But that will not happen because these same guys that we are talking about are the ones running the minis, excluding Brian. And they are the same guys who mysteriously get on the same cards week in and week out.

Next year we need to make some rules about how many challenges that you can turn down. I can understand just wanting to play a layed back round, but to turn somebody down every time and even during minis is a joke.

Here are the rules for the Bag Tag Challenge in discussion here. I have been asked how to solve this problem repeatedly and I am not sure that there is a clear cut solution.

One thing to consider is this, it really doesn't matter what tag you have until the final day, then it really matters. In the finals it is a mass challenge in your division for four 9 hole rounds. Beyond that only one division will have the #1 tag, every division will have a Bag Tag Champion. The champion will be determined by the lowest tag number present in that division.

Z Boaz Bag Tag Challenge Rules

1. Any tag number may challenge any other tag number.

2. You must display your tag where it can be easily seen.
Concealing your tag is not allowed.

3. It is mandatory to accept challenges on the card at any
organized tournament. This includes all weekly/mini
tournaments as well as one day or two day tournaments.
If there are two or more tags present it is on. It is not
mandatory to accept a challenge from another card,
unless there is no tag on the card to challenge, then
that player must accept any challenge from another card.

4. All challenges on the card supercede any challenge from
another card. Example, you may have a challenge with
your buddy who is on another card. You also have a
challenge going on your card. You have to settle with
your card first, then you can settle any other challenge
you may have.

5. You may refuse any challenge only during a casual round.

6. All rule revisions or additions must be approved by
Brian Mace.

We had a match play tournament to end our bag tag challange this year. We set up a bracket like the NCAA basketball tourney. You were seeded according to your tag number. I got the idea from someone on this board, but I can't remember who. The overall responce was great. The throphies were given out according to how you finished in the tournament. Hopefully this will help with the hiders.
You can't get a low tag and then hide until the end of the Challenge.

We have had match play to end the season for the last two years and it has been very successfull. Mucho Fun and the results were not what everyone would have expected. Some top players went down early.

As far as the not accepting challenges. Have someone volunteer to help the TD and have a surprise mass challenge or mix the cards with other divisions. Then everyone has at least a chance to play for the #1. Its not that they expect to win it, they just want the chance to play for it.

As I see it, we have two major problems in this situation...

The first is getting the guy to put the tag on the line. The bracket idea sounds great however how do you get #1 to show up to something that doesn't offer any protection for his tag?

Second problem, the final bag tag champion tourney only allows for same division play. If these bag tag baggers keep the #1 tag in Adv. there is no way for any other division to even get a shot at it for the final. Something doesn't seem right about beating everyone at the Bag Tag Final Challenge and ending up with the #5 tag when the #1 is present.

I went up to Tulsa with Danny to play in that this year, and that is absolutely the way to go.

That is the only way to have a true bag tag champion.

The bracket play will only work for the end of the season tournament. One division, 64 spots up for grabs. It was very surprising that there were several Pros that went down in the first or second round. Match play is very different than stroke play.

As fars as getting people to challenge their tags, I beleive you have the same rules that we have. As long as there are at least two tags on a card, then the challenge is on, except for casual play. Have the TD mix the cards across all divisions.
Unannounced.

As for casual play challenges, we handle it by publicly tormenting, badgering, humiliating and shaming them to either challenge or leave with their tail between their legs.

Oh, by they way thanks for comming to the 2004 bag tag match play. I hope that you can make it next year.

That is the only way to have a true bag tag champion




The key word in that sentence is "a". The solution to this problem is not to facilitate one winner or even one group of people. Where do the ladies, rec, and juniors fit into that solution?

The easy solution may be this, I can have a special #1 Pro tag, #1 Adv tag and so on....made to award as well as the custom metal mini with your name on it. Then the winner in all divisions will have their Winner Tag. Or I could give only the number 1 to the Open winner and the Number 2 to Advanced winner and the number 3 to Intermediate winner and so on......

The bottom line is that all levels of players have purchased these tags. They all have had a chance at getting the best tags available to them. If they have 27 on January 2 and the next best is 30 then that 27 has a hole new meaning doesn't it?

And above all they all need to have the opportunity to have a good time at the finals, and some of them should not have to face you in the process.:)

That sounds like a good solution.

Mr. Felsner may have forgot to mention that he lost to a Pro that lost to an Adv Am that lost to an AM Master.

Everyone has a chance at match play.

I am not at all opposed to match play, although I think that most of the players in this area would be reluctant to take their chances against everyone. I think that they would hide from the challenge instead of rising to it....isn't that the subject that got this thread started in the first place?!?

Ya a pro that got 40th in worlds, and I believe that Jason took him down at Hunter.

And if the ladies and rec players aren't the best players than they should not have the best tags, and I am sure that is something that they know when they buy the tags.

Having different tags for advanced players and Open players would not solve anything. There are what 3 open players who have bag tags this year, and thirty amateur players. As I mentioned above if they are not the best players than they should not have the best tags. And I�m not saying that I am a better player than they are I just want a chance just one chance at the number 1 tag.

I had the tag for two weeks, and I did not turn down one challenge. Then Dixon took it from me, and then he got beat by Anthony and that was the last we saw of the number one tag.

Not have to face me, who do you think I am Barry?

I agree with having one set of tags. Holding a #1 tag in advance would seem hollow knowing that another #1 was right there. Actually, I wouldn't mind a restriction in challenging numbers, i.e. no challenge if your more than 20 pts. away from your desired tag, but shrug, that's more than likely just me. I just think I should earn a few steps at a time before I jump the whole staircase. I don't think anyone with a vastly superior number should be afraid to take a challenge... but obviously that's more wishful thinking. Having some clairification on the matter is teh win, and will make for a fun sunday :)

Here is one that you will really love, Chris Stuart the current holder of the #1 Bag Tag fell at work and broke his arm. This just 20 some days before the championship.

The point is that all kinds of players are supporting the bag tag and they should all be treated equally. If they win the tag then they hold it until they get knocked off, and if they don't want to accept the challenge within the rules they have that option just like you. You may choose not to exercise that option, but it is still there if you want to use it.

You are entitled to feel that I am wrong on this, but I have to consider everyone in the decisions related to the tag rules.

If he is able to hold on to that card that is just bull you know what. He is not the best player at z-boaz.

And how are we suposed to get a chance at the cards if the same people are on the same cards every mini it's not fair, and the rules stink.

We use a deck of playing cards at our weeklies to choose foursomes. All Kings play together, all Queens, etc...If #1 is in your group, you can play for it. This makes it as random as possible. If there is an odd number of players, you can have all of the Ace card pickers play with #1.

that is a great idea.

I hope you can survive not getting any chance to run at it until the final, Chris said he will be playing that for sure...and you know what division he has to play now....at least until he decides to be one of the first ones to take advantage of the new rating under 950something and you can play advanced. The ink will barely be dry on his new pro card and he will be playing advanced again.

At least you will get your wish in that he will be playing the final and it will be a mass challenge in the division.

Maybe we should have a tag for the winners in each division for Varsity, JV, Sophomore, and Freshman.

i thought he broke his arm?

Why would #1 need to be protected from #22? Seems #1 should be uh #1 for a reason.

eh, just a restriction that might make a lower tag owner feel more comfortable in displaying it. Almost anyone can beat anyone else out here, within reason(bad weather, crappy throwing, etc), and the thought of loosing a single digit tag to a rec with an 80 would probably be a bit embarrassing for that leet player. I guess I'm just trying to figure out what reason someone would want to hold out (besides just plain selfishness) and eliminate it.

you would think so.

maybe that is why they don't except challenges.

If someone doesn't want the possibility of being embarrassed, then they should either make sure thier good enough to win all challenges or don't buy a tag.

I have fallen from #5 to #87 and had to like it, they beat me.
Plain and simple.

Our number one went to last. And he handled extremely well. He'll probably have one again within a week. I held #1 for four days and invited everyone to come out and fight for it on the first availalbe day. We only have about 27 tags but the top nine or so never hide and the bottom nine never hide it's the ones in the middle wanting to maintain mediocrity that we don't see.

He did break his arm, but he claims that he will be playing. That remains to be seen.

I really think that you are making too much of this. What if Chris was healthy and he gave you a side challenge on Sunday and you beat him, but Toby also beat him and he was on the card. Would that be any different than him saying no to your challenge?

What are you talking about man?

If he gave me a side challenge I think that hell would freeze over, and if that made up scenario that you came up with happened I would not have a problem with it at all. One thing has nothing to do with the other.

All I am asking for is a chance at the number 1 tag, I don't think that is too much to ask for.

But yall won't have to worry about me after this year, because I will not be wasting my money on a tag next year.

And I think that yall make too much about having the number one tag. Like I have said numerous times if you don't accept any challenges than what does having that number one tag prove.

TwoPutt (david), now I remember where the idea for a match play tournament came from. Thanks! It went geat! Everybody (almost) liked it and wants to do it next year. We had a top seed loose in the first round. As for getting the "chickens" to play all you can do is public harrasement. I have made rules, but how do you enforce them. I thought about adding a rule that the top 5 tags have to defend every 4 weeks, but that would be hard to enforce. We have a rule (not followed) that after our B-tier (Soupy Sales/oct) you can only challenge up 5 spots. This will encourage playing with different people, but people still want to play in "thier" group of friends. It might be like the bcs in football during the year, but you can end it with a tournament like basketball. :)

Please don't compare this to college football. God help us if the BCS is our model for excellence.

Someone had suggested earlier that you take a deck of cards and all Kings are together, 4's are together and so forth. This will mix up the tags without any trouble. I like the idea and plan on doing it.

I'm glad your match play went off well. The players around here love it and thats all they talk about for the month before and the month after. We also had some big guns go down early. Now that you have had your first one, next year will be bigger and better.

I have als found that public harrasement is the best solution for tag chickens or I refer to them as tag chickesheits.

Personally I find it funny that you,(Chris Flesner)are on the message board crying again about something that is really pretty insignificant to most of the people you are calling "chicken".But then again WE as a whole are use to it by now.What I personally find even funnier is the fact that you feel as though you are wasting your HARD EARNED twelve bucks.The reason for the bag tags in the beginning was for raising money for the course you are now enjoying on a daily basis.The concrete teepads you seem to enjoy are there because alot of ther people "WASTED" their hard earned money also.If its all about beeing the "best golfer" to you then i guess you missed the point of what its all about.You had your chance and lost it to Dixon right?Well there you go.I guess you just had a bad day or just plain lost to a better golfer.That happens to everyone Chris.As far as not getting on a card with the person that has the number one tag week after week most people dont want to play with a person that cry babies there way around the course and acts like its the end of the world if they dont play well.I guess we are all guilty of bad attitudes at one point or another but everytime you play is another story.The last time I checked all the noise about the number one bag tag was coming from your PIE HOLE. So dont accuse the people trying avoid you and your antics of making a big deal of having the number one bag tag.And the way i see it now more than ever having the number one tag is worth having just to know it makes you post crap like your posting now.Just think Flesner maybe hell will freeze over after all.But I doubt it???????????

Surely Brad isn't a chicken. Brad is too cool to be a chicken. Thanks for the hilarious thread, it's helped work go by quicker.

Dixon(for starting the thread) and Chris(for continuing the thread), who cares!!!!!!!!! The point behind tags is to raise money. You guys know who the best golfers are. Who cares what that little piece of plastic says. It certainly doesn't mean anything.

Isn�t that the pot calling the kettle black?

How is that Chrissy?You dont have anything to say now besides Isn't that the pot calling the kettle black?You whine and cry and then when someone calls you out you come up with that?I know you can cry better than that.You dont have to try real hard i know that for sure.Just speaking the truth Chris.

Now we have seen the good and the bad side of the bag tag. The good is certainly the money raised through the sale of the tag's. It was the supplement that Z Boaz course fund needed to bring it just short of completion, not to mention the contest within a contest it provides.

Now the bad side has showed it's head. Your so upset that you won't by a new tag because you don't get what you feel is an appropriate chance at to play for number one. I am not sure what I can do, but I will do this, we will use the card method of setting cards on Sunday afternoon. Beyond that I am not going to get into this any further at this point. It is obviously something that there is no solution for.

I am just coming up with a scenario that you may be happy with in the beginning and in the end you are no better off, because you won, but someone else beat you to the tag.

I am talking about the fact that your happiness in this situation is reliant of a very thin opportunity, and if that opportunity is not given to you the reaction that follows is allot bigger than it needs to be.

After all it is just the tag you have at the moment, the one that counts is the one you have on January 2. I think that you may have missed that part, you get to keep it if you have it at the end of the day on January 2, until then it is live so go out and try to be nice and talk the holder into giving you a challenge.

But yall won't have to worry about me after this year, because I will not be wasting my money on a tag next year.



Do you mean it, Chris?!?!?!?! Does this mean you won't be playing Z-Boaz anymore, or do all of the DFW courses apply? Are we all going to be lucky enough to be rid of your whining?!?! Please let it be true!!! That would be the BEST X-mas gift of all!!!!

Happy Holidays!
Ginetta

Brian as usual you have very valid points as far as this discussion goes.The one thing that I do disagree with is changing things at Z-Boaz to suit a couple of guys that think they are beeing mistreated when it comes to them and their opportunity to get a chance at a bag tag they think they deserve.I personally along with several other people at Z-Boaz play on Sundays to play with my friends and compete with them.So be it if they have the # 1 bag tag.For us or you to change the way we make up cards takes some of the the joy of playing and competeing with the people we enjoy competeing with.Yes maybe thats a selfish point of view.Maybe I'm wrong for that.But as many of you know there are people that wont play with certain people.That is a fact of casual golf,for that matter weekly mini's can be included in that.I for one, everytime I do sign ups or cards have atleast one if not five people say oh I dont want to play with so and so.You cant make everyone happy but I know for a fact WE try whenever we can to get everyone where they want to be as far as playing with who they want to play with.If that doesnt happen then you hear more ******** than your hearing from Flesner now.Long story short..........why change things for one cry baby??????

You Texans sure are funny.

you have a signature therefore you are vain

I just want to get back to where it was the first year. We made a ton of money for the course because everyone wanted in on the challenge. The profit for the course has gone down each year because the opportunity for challenging has gone down (not to mention the fact that many courses have their own tags now because they saw how much fun could be had and how much money could be raised)

Each year there are people that drop out because they are disenfranchised with the results. Chris is just the first one, to my recollection, that posted for the world that he was jumping off of the train.

I have bought a tag every year (two last year, stupid gravity took one of my first one) and will continue to do so because it is always good to have funds for the course. However, the second best benefit for purchasing one is to challenge for lower ones. If this weren't a motivator for everyone we would all just give Mace $12 extra at the mini once in a while for the course fund. If I buy a disc I want to have fun with it. Same with the tags.

Also, why is a mixing up the cards a big deal? We used to have mass challenges at the mini's all the time.

You are right, Brad, many people come up to you every week asking to avoid so and so. And you are nice enough to accomodate them, when all it really means is more work for you. But week after week, all of these "rejects" end up together. Some groups get to play together week after week because they are friends and some people get to play together week after week because they end up with the people that nobody else wants. So you end up with some happy people and some unhappy people. There is no way to please everyone. So lets just throw everyone into a pot and draw randomly. It will mix the cards and maybe it will teach us a lesson about playing nice with people that we don't like.

This is all a classic example of one of the many woe's of Disc Golf. We want to have our cake and eat it too. "I want the cake and you better be giving $1 rebates for the free ice cream you are going to give me to go with this cake."

It does not matter what I do, someone is going to get their feathers ruffled, and then I will be made out to be the bad guy again. I am of the opinion that no matter what I do there will be someone who is not going to be happy and it will again be my fault.

I will say this like I have said in the past, it is not my responsibility to make you happy. Your happiness is your choice, that means you make a decision to be happy or not happy.

My responsibility is that every time you turn into the parking lot @ Z Boaz that there are 18 baskets in the ground for you to play. I have spent far too much time and effort trying to make everyone happy and it doesn't work. After all that is said and done I get to be the punching bag too and I will not take on that role any longer.

If any of this is going to keep you away I am sorry. If you aren't going to "waste my $12 next year" that is fine too. But remember this when you are playing that new course in Ft Worth sometime in the later part of next year, all that "wasted money" is what will be paying for that course. Really what is being wasted is your energy and time on something that none of us can fix or control.

I don't think the lack of my $12 next year will do any damage to the course funds. I have no problems with giving money to the course, but I am just tired of dealing with these tags. Sorry if any of my comments offended anybody in any way, I was just stating my opinions. :D

Tags are supposed to be fun. If someone wants to hog the #1 tag, I guess you can't do anything about it. Someone could just retire with the #1 tag and you'd be in the same boat.

You can still have fun, though. If the #1 hogs are at the course, challenge your buddy to mini-roller distance for tags. Then throw your mini-rollers and swap tags and have fun. Let the hogs be the "no fun" crew because they are afraid to have fun if it means the rpecious tag if lost. If you are having fun, that is the point. Right?

Brian,

Thanks for trying something new today. It didn't help my personal quest for the #1 but that wasn't the point anyway. I just wanted an opportunity and you provided that. I had fun playing with people that I haven't played with in a while.

As for the grumblers, change will always be fought against. It is a fact of life.

I am sorry that people have been taking personal shots at you lately. Calling into question your management of the course funds is totally unfounded and most likely comes from someone with a personal grudge and no actual facts.

Brian and MaceMan have done innumerable things to help out the course that I call home. When I first played here, we had 9 holes that were nice. Now I have the option of playing on a world class daily. I know that my game has improved simply by being challenged by the Z and repeatedly getting my tail handed to me. I am glad that you have constructed a course that will never be easy for anyone. I am proud to play on a course where I have birdied every hole and taken at least a 6 on every hole. All of this is possible because you have put in many, many hours to make sure that this was a great course.

I could have told you all of this at the mini but I wanted everyone else to know that you are a good guy with the best of intentions for helping disc golf as a whole and the local scene in particular. While we don't always see eye to eye on the peripheral issues, I know that you are working for the greater good. I am proud to be associated with you in this venture.

For those that are taking shots at you personally, as hard as it is sometimes, especially when what they are saying is false, please just disregard them. I would hate to lose your work ethic because of a big mouth with no knowledge.

For everyone else, we have a great thing going on here in Ft. Worth. Make sure that if you are ever traveling through the metroplex that you stop by and play this great course.

dixon

It was great seeing so many people out there... I always like playing with new people, and had a great 3-man card. Neither had a tag, but dems de breaks. But yeah, your hard work and that of the others who kindly put in their free time to improve an already awesome course is greatly apreciated, everything from the rocks in the creek to the brush clearing on 14. Kudos.

and ahh mace save me a lighter sidewinder for thursday night if you would plzkthanx