This is a question for the PDGA and all the players/members.
I have been noticing over the years that the jump putt has become more of a regular style of putting and it seems at least one out of every three player are doing it--pros and ams alike. As you all know a jump putt can make a 35-50 foot put a lot shorter due to the jump foward. I have good friends who have made this an art and it really is a great putt, if u can master it like some of the top pros. Here is my question--according to rule 803.03 A -at least one supporting point must be in contact w/ the throwing surface while the disc is being released--and about 80% of people release their disc while they are in the air 1-4 feet past their mini--just look at the picture of Climo in the new dicsc golf news(2nd page) in the air w/ his disc only about 3/4 a foot away from him--he obvousley didn't release his disc while he was on the ground--is this not an illegal putt??? I seen Marshalls and TDs watch people jump putt and never say anything because people only consider it when within 33 feet-- this is at N.T.s I'm not singling out Climo I just thought this was a perfect example(w/ a picture) to ask the question. If the jump putt is legall then that means the next time you're stuck behind a big bush or tree u can jump 2-3 feet right or left and release the disc in the air and not have to deal w/ the obstacle in froint of u---I think not. It's time for the PDGA to clear this issue up and take a stand that will solve this problem for the future. Everybody has a different opinion on this and I thought I'd ask the community and the PDGA about this. All input welcome.
DISC ON!!!

Jump putts if executed properly are legal.

Jump putts released while in the air are illegal.

The way you describe it, it's illegal.

The disc must be released while you still have at least one point of contact on the playing surface, behind the mark.

From the picture of Climo, it's impossible to tell if he let go before his foot left the ground.

WELL, when the pdga gets done with the drinking, smoking, swearing, they might get down to calling these rules that really effect play..imo

What is an properly executed jump putt?

I have also seen people explain that within 10meters, the jump putt is legal, and then seen them throw outside of the 10m.

If the disc should be out of the players hand while at least one foot (point of contact) is on the ground, then how does jumping really help. I jump up and down when my drives are flipping in the wind and going out of bounds and yet the jumping does not affect them. Am I missing something?

1. It's always illegal within 10m because you must maintain balance before advancing beyond your lie. Yeah yeah, technically you could do a jump-putt, but not go past your lie, but what's the point?

2. A legal jump putt can actually help because you are using the momentum of your body going forward even though you are releasing before you actually lose contact with the ground.

just look at the picture of Climo in the new dicsc golf news(2nd page) in the air w/ his disc only about 3/4 a foot away from him



Look at that picture again. The disc is about 1 1/2 arm lengths away from his hand. And with his arms, that's probably about 6', not 3/4 of a foot. Ok, I'm exagerating, but I'd say the disc is at least 3' away from his hand.

Yes you are missing something. If you time the jump correctly you do have your foot on the ground when releasing the putt and your forward momentum enables you to putt a 40 footer with about as much push as you give a 20 footer, I am not kidding try it! (The down side is that it can be more difficult to maintain a smooth level throw while you are getting ready to jump.) Another plus to the jump putt is that 20 footer misses usually land closer than 40 footer misses.

Think of it more as a follow through putt. If you weren't allowed to follow through on a drive you'd probably lose a lot of distance and accuracy. The same applies to putting; it's just that the follow through happens to be a jump.

I have been working on my jump putt and was amazed at I actually had better putts on those 50ft putts.

For me the "jump" is really more like me falling over forward. At the last possible moment I hop/jump to get my feet back under me so I dont belly flop (btw, from outside the circle but not too far away, if I am forced to knee putt I will do a belly flop putt. Quite ugly but gets the same effect as a jump putt.)

I do have a tweener range where I will take a run up and do more of a jump forward. In this case It feels totally unnatural to leave the ground before releasing the disc. Maybe I have just gotten used to it but even if I try I cant leave the ground then release and get any kinda of accuracy, it just doesnt work.

I do have a tweener range where I will take a run up and do more of a jump forward.



This is where the lines get blurry. 80% of people who jump putt swear they were on the ground when they released the disc but a person standing back watching can clearly see they were in the air at the point of release. It seems that most jump putters have that"tweener" area where they think they're on the ground when they are not. Next time have a friend stand back and watch--and don't do anything different--and see what they say. For so long people have only concentrated on the "falling putt" within 33ft. that no one seems to be concerned about outside the 10 meter mark. I'm not the kind of person to call people on things in a tourney but after watching this for so many years I had to post something to see what everybody else thought. One poster corrected me and said Climo's disc was no more than an arms length away--- he is clearly in the air a foot or two-- and to me there is no way he released the disc on the ground and still got 2 ft. in the air w/ the disc so close to him. I think for so long this has been accepted because the player isn't within 10 meters. I see it all the time and thought now's as good of time as any to bring attention to this subject. After watching T.D.s and marshalls no call this style over the years it gets old after a while and I think the PDGA needs to clear this up. Just like the "balance" issue w/ the falling putt within 33ft. I don't think it should be left up to an OPINION of someone else if you jumped or if u had balance when u putted--there should be a diffinitve rule clearing these issues up. I've seen groups in a tourney who didn't like a paticular person so they called falling putt saying there was no control of balance when the putter clearly thought they had shown balance--this is all an OPINION and that allows bias to enter the picture. It would be much easier if there was no advancment towards the hole
allowed period--this would solve numerous problems. Sorry for the long post......DISC ON!!!!

There is one way to know first hand. Next time you are at the course go and try to jump up in the air and putt, then try to putt and jump up into the air. See which one is more accurate.

Newton's 3rd law helps clear things. "For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction."

In order to get any kind of power/thrust/force out of a jump putt, the laws of physics require that an opposite and equal reaction MUST happen.

You can't get any power out of a shot, or putt in this case, if you aren't pushing against the ground. Have you ever tried to jump into the air, and throw a shot......it's hard....next to impossible to get any sort of force behind the disc.

I do have a tweener range where I will take a run up and do more of a jump forward.



This is where the lines get blurry. 80% of people who jump putt swear they were on the ground when they released the disc but a person standing back watching can clearly see they were in the air at the point of release. It seems that most jump putters have that"tweener" area where they think they're on the ground when they are not. Next time have a friend stand back and watch--and don't do anything different--and see what they say. For so long people have only concentrated on the "falling putt" within 33ft. that no one seems to be concerned about outside the 10 meter mark. I'm not the kind of person to call people on things in a tourney but after watching this for so many years I had to post something to see what everybody else thought. One poster corrected me and said Climo's disc was no more than an arms length away--- he is clearly in the air a foot or two-- and to me there is no way he released the disc on the ground and still got 2 ft. in the air w/ the disc so close to him. I think for so long this has been accepted because the player isn't within 10 meters. I see it all the time and thought now's as good of time as any to bring attention to this subject. After watching T.D.s and marshalls no call this style over the years it gets old after a while and I think the PDGA needs to clear this up. Just like the "balance" issue w/ the falling putt within 33ft. I don't think it should be left up to an OPINION of someone else if you jumped or if u had balance when u putted--there should be a diffinitve rule clearing these issues up. I've seen groups in a tourney who didn't like a paticular person so they called falling putt saying there was no control of balance when the putter clearly thought they had shown balance--this is all an OPINION and that allows bias to enter the picture. It would be much easier if there was no advancment towards the hole
allowed period--this would solve numerous problems. Sorry for the long post......DISC ON!!!!



Making up statistics and using a still frame as evidence that most jump putts are illegal doesn't seem like a very strong case to me. If everyone else is seeing the release happening before the jump, why do you think that you're observing it correctly and everybody else is wrong?

Making up statistics and using a still frame as evidence that most jump putts are illegal doesn't seem like a very strong case to me. If everyone else is seeing the release happening before the jump, why do you think that you're observing it correctly and everybody else is wrong?



First place, I'm not making up statistics--do u see a statistical chart here?--no. I merely stated, from my view and other people's I've talked to, including very well known pros, that this happens a lot more than people are making it out to be.(at least 50% of people don't even think they leave the ground) And who is "everyone" seeing it correctley or vise versa--I've had numerous people see the same thing that I have seen and said that the person was in the air when the disc was released. In the end it still comes down to someone ELSES opinion of your putt. Eliminating all foward movement past the mini would solve this. I have seen golf in many parts of the country and this has been a common problem everywhere. Even in the USADGC(Mi.) numerous people were complaining about this--so it's not everyone seeing this correctley and I'm just out of my mind, it's a legitimate point.
And pictures can be a great way to document certain problems in this sport. I've seen Climo jump putt in person and it sure is a close call if he's on the groung or not--and before I was even aware of this someone else pointed it out to me at a N.T. about Climo, so it's not just me. That's the argument that paticular person stated he has heard for years when he brought this subject up--"are u sure you're seeing his putt correctley?" This paticular person gave up after a while because no one would listed to him-- he sees it more now than ever. I'm not saying Climo does it consistantley, I'm just stating that it gives someone who jumps foward an unfair advantage when it comes to putting and regardless of what people say it is up to the group to decide if it's a legal putt or not, and I'm asking the PDGA to decide this for us. DISC ON, and ON, and ON!!!!

One poster corrected me and said Climo's disc was no more than an arms length away--- he is clearly in the air a foot or two-- and to me there is no way he released the disc on the ground and still got 2 ft. in the air w/ the disc so close to him.



I said the disc is more than an arm's length away. And I think it's impossible to tell from that picture whether his putt was legal or not. Watching video tape in slow motion is the only way you'll be able to tell.

I don't think it should be left up to an OPINION of someone else if you jumped or if u had balance when u putted--there should be a diffinitve rule clearing these issues up.



There are definitive rules: Releasing after leaving the ground is illegal. Absolutely definitive. Leaves no room for interpretation. Unfortunately, enforcement of that rule will always be up to someone else's opinion. There's no way around it. Even if we have professional referees on every hole, many calls are opinon because of the timing.

There is NO way to look at a picture and tell where the point of release was. The only way you could know for sure that the person did not release the disc before his feet left the ground in a still pic is for the pic to actually show the disc STILL in the hand while the feet are off the ground.

Who is to say the disc actually left the hand when the player was at full extension and even so the person is moving forward and is somewhat keeping up with the flight of the disc with his hand for a moment.

I have on numerous times in the learning process of jump putts had poeple watch to make sure i was doing it properly. I have NEVER had anyone say that it looked like I was in the air on release while they were paying close attention. Like I said before, I have tried many times to Illegal jump putt to prove a point and it just doesn't work that way.(yeah, I know, and the glove didnt fit OJ either :) )

Remember that the player's hand and body (Climo) still continues to move forward after release so the distance between the hand and disc during this phase of the throw will only increase related to the relative speeds of the body/hand compared with the disc, not the actual speed of the disc. Thus, the snapshot alone can be misleading as mentioned already.

just drop a little 804.??? in his bag when he is in the air, and you have a real infraction just kidding,

Good poll, surprised to see how many people wanted jumpputts eliminated.

Jump putts still rare in the NW, I only "jump-putt" when exploding out of bushes with low ceiling and need penetrating distance. Usually I end up sliding on my belly.

If I were in your position and want to 'dis' jump putts, I would do this:
1. Get a camcorder
2. Video 5-10 of the best people in your region jump-putting. Tape about 5-10 putts each.
3. Review frame-by-frame to see if foot is leaving early.
4. If you see more than a couple putts where they've jumped out early, then you have a case.

Anyone that could video these jump-putts and report back to the board would be doing DG a service.

I personally wouldn't even bother with the rule even if you DID find slightly early jumps, but if jumpputts got voted out because of evidence of early jumps, then the rule change wouldn't bother me much at that point.

Thanx for all the input, all opinions welcome. This is exactley what I wanted, to hear what other people thought around the country. This is how our great sport will continue to evolve, keep on post'n.
No west or east, only U.S. golf /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

I've posted on this before. Jon has old episodes of Disc Golf TV showing jump putts at actual tournaments. Some players routinely throw after leaving the ground.

Throwing a disc while in the air is no different than throwing a basket ball while in the air. If you've learned to throw it that way, it is no more or less awkward than throwing it while on the ground.

The easiest way to fix the problem, since it is impossible to call during a tournament, would be to change the balance distance from 10 meters to something much longer like 30 meters, or to require that at all times a player must have a point of contact with the playing surface.

A much better solution would be to just require that the disc be released before the player touches the ground in front of the marker. That would introduce an athletic element with spectator and video appeal. Players could leap out from behind a bush and then release the throw in the air before landing. Don't even worry whether they land with balance.

This would also allow leaps toward the basket ala slam dunks. I doubt it would change the game in any material way because most will have more accuracy closer to the basket with their standard putt. However, it should add some exciting throws in places where it could be helpful. It should also be easier to call an infraction similar to basketball layups where the player has to release the ball before their foot hits the ground to avoid traveling. I would only suggest that the player must indicate to players in the group ahead of time when they're attempting a shot like this.

You can't get any power out of a shot, or putt in this case, if you aren't pushing against the ground. Have you ever tried to jump into the air, and throw a shot......it's hard....next to impossible to get any sort of force behind the disc.

No more difficult or impossible than a fall-away jumper in basketball or a jump-set in volleyball, both of which involve propelling a significantly heavier object than a golf disc.

A much better solution would be to just require that the disc be released before the player touches the ground in front of the marker.

i'll second that motion!!! just make simply "before the player touches the ground", and allow sideways or backwards jumps.

I'm glad i dont have to worry about all this BS ruling in the jump putt...no jump putting for me

I'm with Chuck Kennedy, although I'm cool also with eliminating jump putts.

If eliminating the jumpputt, then the question to DGRZ guys is: how would you write this rule?

This is where the lines get blurry. 80% (made up) of people who jump putt swear they were on the ground when they released the disc but a person standing back watching can clearly see they were in the air at the point of release. It seems that most (made up) jump putters have that"tweener" area where they think they're on the ground when they are not.





First place, I'm not making up statistics--do u see a statistical chart here?--no. I merely stated, from my view and other people's I've talked to, including very well known pros, that this happens a lot more than people are making it out to be.(at least 50% [made up] of people don't even think they leave the ground)



42.7 percent of all statistics are made up on the spot.- Steven Wright

()[] Parentheses are mine.

As a newbie disc golfer I am very confused as to what a jump putt is. Some people do jump then release, others release and then jump (more of a fall than a jump in my opinion). However, as I have become more familiar with the rules, by reading on this site, talking to local flingers, and reading the rule book, I feel compelled to say that it is the responsibility of the players to call any offenses in tournaments in order to gain consistency.

With the falling putt ruling I am under the impression that at least two people in the group must concur on the ruling in order for it to mean anything. Therefore, it is usually the opinion of at least two people that an infraction has occurred. From my limited experience in league play and local tournaments (so far no sanctioned tourneys, but all the local ones followd all PDGA rules), people usually don't realize they are breaking the rules. It is also my experience that people are generally okay with you informing them of the rules.

The rule is clear. You must have some contact with the ground behind the marker when the disc is released with no contact with anything in front of the marker. Outside of 10 meters you may end up in front of your marker after the throw (ie. when your trailing leg lands in front of the teebox on a drive). This seems to me to be a very straightforward rule. There shouldn't be any problem with calling it.

JMHO

It is like a deaf umpire calling a close play at first base. The foot and the hand are in different locations so it is hard to see both, and it happens fast. Add to that the reluctance of anyone to call obvious rules violations, and getting a call on this just never happens.

you could , if not suggested already , lobby to have the mark set at 50ft. I do jump putt , quite well , as far as I know I do it legally but I rarely do it within 40-50ft. I think its sad playing a round with someone that jumps at almost every basket inside 35ft and that it undermines the skill of consistently making 20-40ft putts.My vote is to push it back to 45-50ft.

It is like a deaf umpire calling a close play at first base. The foot and the hand are in different locations so it is hard to see both, and it happens fast. Add to that the reluctance of anyone to call obvious rules violations, and getting a call on this just never happens.

Actually, Bruce, I have seen it called and seconded(!) once, in Open, during a B-tier! Ended up saving the player a stroke 'cuz the first violation is just a warning and he had missed the invalid putt but banged home the re-putt.

Probably some lessons to be learned there, but I'm not sure most will learn the right ones. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Geo, check out the "Throwing Techniques" thread for more putt-jump info.

I agree, a 35 foot jump putt is so lame

But a 45 foot jump putt, now you are a man :D

Two tournaments in two different cities in one day?

Sorry about posting this here, but I don't know how to start a new topic here at the PDGA website, so if someone that has that power could help me out, it would be greatly appreciated.

I was looking through the results of this past weekends (11-13-2004) PDGA tournaments in Goshen Indiana Turkey shoot tournament and somewhere in Michigan Tag Challenge and noticed that one of the Ams, namely Jamie Mosier, played in both events. How can this be so? Am I reading this right???

Thanks

I agree, a 35 foot jump putt is so lame

But a 45 foot jump putt, now you are a man :D



Why is that? If the rules state I can Jump Putt (I do it legally) outside of 10m, and I make them most of the time, what makes that lame? I'm following the rules, and making my putt. If the rule got pushed back to 45' or whatever was suggested, I'd most certainly regular putt inside 45'. I still can putt at 35', I just make WAY more jumps from 35' then I do regular.

Yes you are missing something. If you time the jump correctly you do have your foot on the ground when releasing the putt and your forward momentum enables you to putt a 40 footer with about as much push as you give a 20 footer, I am not kidding try it! (The down side is that it can be more difficult to maintain a smooth level throw while you are getting ready to jump.) Another plus to the jump putt is that 20 footer misses usually land closer than 40 footer misses.

Jump Putts are 100% illegal already.

Putt Jumps are 100% legal outside 10 meters.

Sorry, note to self, never assume the sarcasim filter is on :o:cool:

Jump Putts are 100% illegal already.

Putt Jumps are 100% legal outside 10 meters.



Are these terms defined anywhere Nick?

According to my definition, Jump Putts are legal if executed correctly, and Putt Jumps don't exist. It's just a term Nick made up, and nobody else in the entire Disc Golf universe uses.

Are these terms defined anywhere Nick?

According to my definition, Jump Putts are legal if executed correctly, and Putt Jumps don't exist. It's just a term Nick made up, and nobody else in the entire Disc Golf universe uses.



Thats what i thought too :o

Anyone admitting to a Jump Putt is as much as admitting that they are breaking our rules. To be within our rules you must first release (putt) then leave the ground (jump), thus you have the legal Putt Jump and the illegal Jump Putt.

Don't blame the messenger.

The act of jumping is initiated before the act of putting, therefore the correct term is jump-putt even if the player doesn't leave the ground before letting go of the disc.

We arent calling it the Jump THEN Putt we are simply saying there is a Jump involved in the process of putting. Your saying that just because you have to putt before you jump that the word putt should be before the work jump in the term that describes it????????

I JUMP PUTT all the time and am proud of it. I may putt before i jump but its still a JUMP PUTT :D

thats right!

from now on all birdies should be known as Drive-Putts. all pars are Drive-Up-Putts, and bogeys are Drive-Up-Putt-Putts.

Teeshots shall be Step-Drives unless you happen to have the scorecards on that hole, in which case they shall be known as Score-Step-Drives.

from now on all birdies should be known as Drive-Putts. all pars are Drive-Up-Putts, and bogeys are Drive-Up-Putt-Putts.



Only for par-3s.

from now on all birdies should be known as Drive-Putts. all pars are Drive-Up-Putts, and bogeys are Drive-Up-Putt-Putts.

Teeshots shall be Step-Drives unless you happen to have the scorecards on that hole, in which case they shall be known as Score-Step-Drives.

Why stop with Disc Golf? Let's extend it to other sports and call homeruns "run homes," base hits "hit bases," touchdown passes "pass touchdowns," and fall-away jumpers "jumper fall-aways." Heck, while we're at it, why stop at sports? Let's start a crusade to have everyone say "land-crash" instead of "crash-land" and "drunk falling-down" instead of "falling-down drunk."

Cute.

"drunk falling-down" instead of "falling-down drunk."

either way, youre back to disc golf, at least Tier-C. :D

i cant wait till i Pro go, but i must first better get and stop putt two-ing.

We arent calling it the Jump THEN Putt we are simply saying there is a Jump involved in the process of putting. Your saying that just because you have to putt before you jump that the word putt should be before the work jump in the term that describes it????????

I JUMP PUTT all the time and am proud of it. I may putt before i jump but its still a JUMP PUTT :D



Word.

We arent calling it the Jump THEN Putt we are simply saying there is a Jump involved in the process of putting. Your saying that just because you have to putt before you jump that the word putt should be before the work jump in the term that describes it????????

I JUMP PUTT all the time and am proud of it. I may putt before i jump but its still a JUMP PUTT :D



Word.



You are not only right, of course, this is absolutely critical to the future of the universe, where phrases should have no words in relation to it's actual meaning.

This is a perfect example of the Bushification of our language.

Wouldn't putt twoing be putt-putting. But that's a different game and might be confusing. :cool:

You are not only right, of course, this is absolutely critical to the future of the universe, where phrases should have no words in relation to it's actual meaning


You are not only right, of course, this is absolutely critical to the future of the universe, where phrases should have no words in relation to it's actual meaning.

Unlike you, Nick, most people recognize that there are more types of logical relationships than simply temporal ones, e.g., spatial, causal, final, instrumental, partitive, apposition, predication, means-end, etc., and that the juxtaposition of words can express other relationships than merely, or even primarily, temporal sequence. The locutions in Fore's post are a few examples of just such juxtapositions; "jump putt" is another. The fact that you refuse to recognize that "jump putt" denotes the constituent actions of a compound action rather than the temporal sequence in which those constituent occur is further proof�as if more proof were necessary�of just how feeble-minded, infantile, and idiotic your locution is.

Go ahead delete this post and ban me if it makes you feel better. It won't change the fact that you're wrong on this issue, and, furthermore, you KNOW you're wrong.

Putt is the noun and jump is the adjective describing the putt? Unless you're speaking in Spanish, the adjective comes first.

Don't be a dummy big! :D

Putt is the noun and jump is the adjective describing the putt? Unless you're speaking in Spanish, the adjective comes first.

Don't be a dummy big!



<font size=5> Word!!!!!!!!! </font>

I'm glad we could sort this all out. Now where are we on this topic again?

Is a jump putt legal or illegal?

Depends, if you jump first and leave the ground before releasing, or putting, then it is illegal. The name sort of implies illegality in the sequence of the words used. Regardless, the legality is based on whether the player is off the ground at release or not.

I still plan to call it a Putt Jump, if not for accuracy alone, because I know it drives certain tight wads nearly to the brink of insanity� ;)

Jump putts if executed properly are legal.

Jump putts released while in the air are illegal.



I thought the second post on this thread ended the argument. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

The jump putt rule should be killed also in my opinion. If you want to jump putt from freakin 10 feet then more power to you. Who cares. I think you should be able to jump putt from EVERYWHERE as long as you dont leave the ground before they let the disc go. Why should you only be able to jump putt from 33 ft and out???

The jump putt rule should be killed also in my opinion. If you want to jump putt from freakin 10 feet then more power to you. Who cares. I think you should be able to jump putt from EVERYWHERE as long as you dont leave the ground before they let the disc go. Why should you only be able to jump putt from 33 ft and out???



I agree.

Revision of Our Lie and Stance Rules (http://www.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?Board=Rules%20&%20Standards&Number=11925&Searchpage=2&Main=11925&Search=true&#Post11925)

Why 3 Lie & Stance Rules? One's Better. (http://www.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?Board=Rules%20&%20Standards&Number=11891&Searchpage=2&Main=11891&Search=true&#Post11891)

redroc,

I will double check our information and let you know what I find. I may have gotten over zealous and posted them before really, really, refining the information. Keep in mind these are the 'un-official' results pending confirmation. :eek:

Take some time and peruse pictures and video of jump putts. Very few of the ones I've seen are executed legally. The ones that may be legal are too difficult to call. The jump putt should be banned. :D

Take some time and peruse pictures and video of jump putts. Very few of the ones I've seen are executed legally. The ones that may be legal are too difficult to call. The jump putt should be banned. :D



The same could be said of run-ups on fairway drives...
Or teeing with back foot off the tee pad...

Do we get rid of all of these rules?

I agree.



I just say you should be able to jump putt from anywhere if you want. I dont agree with having to put a mini down on the Tee pad. The tee pad is the tee pad you have throw from anywhere on it and that is a good thing. You shouldnt have to PICK a lie on the pad. The rule for executing a run up in the fairway is not a big deal unless you go PASSED you mini. Anywhere right or left of it really doesnt matter if you are in the FAIRWAY. Now if you are in the shule it can make a huge difference where you place your foot relative to your mini. I dont have any clue how we can get rid of the foot faults in the fairway but these are so insignificant that even if a player foot faulted EVERY single time he threw from the FAIRWAY IMO it would not give him any advantage over the player who did not footfault in the FAIRWAY. The player who foot faults in the shule may do so in a manner that gives him a HUGE advantage over a player who places his foot directly behind the mini when shooting from the SHULE.

I say let anyone jump putt from anywhere because if you can perfect it and someone else cant then that is their problem and not yours. If everyone can do it then no one has and advantage. Telling people who are good at jump putting that they can only jump putt from 33 ft and out is like telling people who can throw 450 ft that they are only allowed to do so when they are playing a hole thats over 600 ft.

The rule for executing a run up in the fairway is not a big deal unless you go PASSED you mini. Anywhere right or left of it really doesnt matter if you are in the FAIRWAY


Now don't get this started again on this thread. It has been argued conclusively that having to concentrate on foot placement enough to hit your mark does effect the distance and accuracy of most drives.

This is the difference between a fairway drive and a tee box drive.

does said concentration make the fairway shot longer or shorter / more or less accurate ?

i find the best way to not go PASSED my marker is to take small steps. this more often than not seems to increase accuracy and have very little effect on distance.

Maybe but if you are good enough to be competing at tournaments to the point you can cash. You should know your run up well enough so you can set up and plant within 11 inches directly behind your mini without even thinking about it :D

...and if they don't, will you call them on it?

Agreed!

I dont have to worry about foot faulting on upshots because i am usually standing still on anything inside 300 ft :D

And around we go! Whoopie!

I'm going to start working on my long jump!

Get rid of the DROT! On is In!!!

Take some time and peruse pictures and video of jump putts. Very few of the ones I've seen are executed legally. The ones that may be legal are too difficult to call. The jump putt should be banned. :D



The same could be said of run-ups on fairway drives...
Or teeing with back foot off the tee pad...

Do we get rid of all of these rules?



I don't see the foot off the T-Pad issue so much, but I do see the foot misplacement on run-ups in the fairway... and I have argued that this rule should be changed to include one of two options: require the player to stand in place on second throws or make a larger area where they can place their foot during run-ups. So, I think there is a problem in one of the those two areas and that it should also be adressed as with the jump putt.

with the exception of stepping left or right to gain an advantage via a better angle, my feeling is this:

if you are so good that shaving 6 or so inches off of your upshot, well then you're gonna kick my butt anyway, so go for it.

i believe there are two basic reasons most oversteps are not called on fairway shots:

1) they just plain dont matter, and
2) almost everyone does it from time to time. (not saying every throw, or even every round. but from time to time)

btw, doing it from time to time enables the understanding that it just doesnt matter.

btw, doing it from time to time enables the understanding that it just doesnt matter.


Being one of those morons that puts himself at a competitive disadvantage by really trying to land my foot legally on fairway runups, I can assure you that it does in fact make a huge difference.

As anyone who has actually tried to do it legally can tell you, it makes a difference. :) Worm-burners are my most common poor result, followed by over-rotation and shanking it right.

Amen to that!

I gotta go with Rhett on this one. Making sure my steps line up sometimes causes me to shank bad or else to stop mid throw so that I can line up my steps better.

Being one of those morons that honors the spirit of the rules by investing time in learning how to plant my foot legally on a fairway shot, I can assure you that it does not in fact make much of a difference at all - after you learn how.

As anyone who has actually tried to do it legally can tell you, controlled execution makes a difference. Doing it legally often just means shortening up the steps, taking a bit off the throw, working more on consistency and smoothness and less on brute force. Common results of failure, other than a rules infraction, include air bouncing and excessive hyzer.

So if it makes no difference, why not just do it legally???

So if it makes no difference, why not just do it legally???



When he's right, he's right!

As anyone who has actually tried to do it legally can tell you, controlled execution makes a difference. Doing it legally often <font size=>just</font> means shortening up the steps, taking a bit off the throw, working more on consistency and smoothness and less on brute force. Common results of failure, other than a rules infraction, include air bouncing and excessive hyzer.

If "if" is the biggest word in the English language, "just" is somewhere not far behind! ;)

...ALL those factors could make one 'just' short on the approach; that's the point of doing it the way it should be done, and why it shouldn't be done the way it isn't...written/allowed.

So if it makes no difference, why not just do it legally???



First off i would like to say that i do legally plant my foot on runups and NO ITS NOT HARD TO DO. If your good you should know your run up well enough to start it so that you end right behind your mini. Second i would like to say that it makes no realy difference if you are 1 foot left right infront of or behind your mini when you make a throw from the fairway. That 2 by 2 ft square 2 ft diameter circle around the mini gives you NO ADVANTAGE WHAT SO EVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Hell ill play you and let you step 3 feet in front behind to the left or to the right of your mini if you want ( AS LONG AS YOUR IN THE WIDE OPEN FAIRWAY). Its not going to give you any kind of advantage over me. Now if you are in the SHULE or behind a Tree or something of that Nature then it is a completely different story. Then any varience left or right could make a horribly impossible shot into a semi tough maybe even easy shot. Either way if your good your going to win and if you suck your going to lose unless you CHEAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If you want to break the rules be my guest because ill still be able to beat you when i FOLLOW the rules :D

hey folks, i agree! i have worked on my fairway game in order to make sure it is legal.

i am offering up the thought that a minor (3-6 inches) overstep will NOT make a shred of difference in your score. if it does, then god bless you, because from 100-300' out it sure doesnt for me. but in those ranges, you need only a two step at most, so it becomes pretty easy to stay legal.

hey folks, i agree! i have worked on my fairway game in order to make sure it is legal.

i am offering up the thought that a minor (3-6 inches) overstep will NOT make a shred of difference in your score. if it does, then god bless you, because from 100-300' out it sure doesnt for me. but in those ranges, you need only a two step at most, so it becomes pretty easy to stay legal.



If it doesn't make a shread of difference then let's see you not do it and how it effects your shot...

I legally jump putt from 50- 110ft. I have had someone watching my feet on jump putts to make sure they are legal.

I just read this whole thread and I think the only people who are anti- jump putts are those that don't jump putt. Give me a break. Besides- if someone is illegally jump putting it is hurting them, because they lose the power they would get from releasing as they are pushing off.

There are other things that some players do illegally which do give them an actual advantage. Let's worry about those before we worry about illegal putts that don't help anyways.

I
I just read this whole thread and I think the only people who are anti- jump putts are those that don't jump putt. Give me a break. Besides- if someone is illegally jump putting it is hurting them, because they lose the power they would get from releasing as they are pushing off.




Actually, wouldn't they have more momentum immediately after they pushed off than they would immediately before they pushed off since they'd be gaining that extra momentum from the full push?

dont think so. momentum is a function of mass and speed. after pushing off the forward speed can only decrease. granted, the downward speed could increase due to gravity, but this would only be beneficial on downward throws. so except for that case the maximum momentum would be at the point of last contact (assuming the thrower was accelerating or maintaining speed through the release)

dont think so. momentum is a function of mass and speed. after pushing off the forward speed can only decrease. granted, the downward speed could increase due to gravity, but this would only be beneficial on downward throws. so except for that case the maximum momentum would be at the point of last contact (assuming the thrower was accelerating or maintaining speed through the release)



I didn't say it would be the greatest immediately after you pushed off, just greater than it would be immediately before you pushed off. I think it's a pretty safe assumption that in the instant before you push off you're adding more forward momentum with your leg muscles than wind resistance is taking away the instant after you push off. It would be easy to argue that releasing way after you push off would be worse than releasing immediately before you push off, but that's hardly a fair comparison because that could easily be called as a violation.

Either way the change in momentum we're talking about is probably minimal so neither throwing right before you push off or right after you push off will give an advantage momentumwise.

I just read this whole thread and I think the only people who are anti- jump putts are those that don't jump putt. There are other things that some players do illegally which do give them an actual advantage. Let's worry about those before we worry about illegal putts that don't help anyways.



I'm anti-jump putt and I can do it. I find that more times than not my feet aren't on the ground when I release the putt even though I think they are and I'm not willing to take the chance of a stance violation so I stand putt. It is completley silly to say that a jump putt does not give an advantage or doesn't help people when clearly it does. I've seen undeniable proof over the years of this and here's one of many examples--say u have a 40 footer but you're consistantley hittiing 1-2 inches low on the basket--jumping foward turns that 40 footer into a 39-36 footer and 8 out 10 putt will more than likley go in a couple of inches higher w/ the same putt--I've done this myself. I've also seen jump putts over bushes that a standing putt would have had much more difficulty executing. To say that someone doesn't have an advantage when they are 2-5 feet closer than u from the same point is not right, and to "worry" about some rules or actions but not others is a horrible way to look at our sport. You are right that there are many things that need to be corrected in this sport but all carry the same amount of weight in my book, all for the betterment of our sport. Keep up the posts.

I just read this whole thread and I think the only people who are anti- jump putts are those that don't jump putt. There are other things that some players do illegally which do give them an actual advantage. Let's worry about those before we worry about illegal putts that don't help anyways.



I'm anti-jump putt and I can do it. I find that more times than not my feet aren't on the ground when I release the putt even though I think they are and I'm not willing to take the chance of a stance violation so I stand putt. It is completley silly to say that a jump putt does not give an advantage or doesn't help people when clearly it does. I've seen undeniable proof over the years of this and here's one of many examples--say u have a 40 footer but you're consistantley hittiing 1-2 inches low on the basket--jumping foward turns that 40 footer into a 39-36 footer and 8 out 10 putt will more than likley go in a couple of inches higher w/ the same putt--I've done this myself. I've also seen jump putts over bushes that a standing putt would have had much more difficulty executing. To say that someone doesn't have an advantage when they are 2-5 feet closer than u from the same point is not right, and to "worry" about some rules or actions but not others is a horrible way to look at our sport. You are right that there are many things that need to be corrected in this sport but all carry the same amount of weight in my book, all for the betterment of our sport. Keep up the posts.



Well as long as they execute the putt legally....they have no advantage. You are only at a disadvantage if you don't. If you can but don't and complain about it...it doesn't add up.

I jump putt b/c it allows me to make more 30'+ putts. I do so legally, and have never been called on a violation. (Even though many have watched for it, I'm A-OK) I do it b/c I need to to be competetive. It saves me 2-3 strokes a round, and can really make the difference. As long as its done legally, I don't care if you make fun of me for doing it right at 10m...if it goes in....it counts!!

This has probably been said before so sorry if I am reapeating someone.

Without the use of a slomo camera you will not be able to tell it someone has executed a jump putt correctly. Unless it is realy obvious and I mean blatently. I jump put and I jump from a straddle position so that both feet takeoff at the same time. Not the Stumble put I see many doing. I think most people are in no way cheating on purpose we are talking nano seconds and I don't think you can controll your body in that circimstance.

As far as fairway play and running up to plant. I have learned to throw from a stationary position to avoid this whenever possible. I also think if you are 250+ away it is not an issue unless you are avoiding an obstacle. I see the most problems when people run up to a lie next to a bush and you know what I call them on it.

To me it is an ethics matter players need to hold the rules in higher esteem if we want to move forward as an organization.

back to the begining...

As you all know a jump putt can make a 35-50 foot put a lot shorter due to the jump foward.



WRONG!
Not at all. You still release the disc form the same distance.

If you see some one releasing a jump putt after they have left there mark, by all means call it, it's a penalty....

You do not jump putt to shorten the length of the putt.

You jump putt for the follow through.


Why?
Beacuse using arm motion for distance tends to pull the disc right to left or left to right.

Exchanging that energy or motion for a jump or push allows you to propel the disc toward the basket with less side to side (arm) motion, thereby increasing your consistancy.

All you have to worry about theoretically is height.

Likewise the jump putt can allow you to put a better controlled touch on your distance, again arm motion for this pulls you side to side. IE to throw a disc relatively far, you must bring it to the side of your body in the back swing.

The first thing you want to do to increase your putting consitancy is reduce the back swing as much as possible especially to the side of your body.....

It's not just for putting either..... you can use it to apporcah as well. Say your 120 feet out with a steep drop behind the basket, you can lunge forward as you release to use your body momentum to "push" the disc towarss the basket, instead of the side to side throw thing discussed earlier.


It can give you lift momentum as well. Surely you can see the difference here?

You know what happens when you point the nose of the disc up right? That's not going to work....

Thsi is elementary bio-mechanics. If you know a educated personal trainer, ask them. even if they don't play disc golf, they can help you understand.

It will work even better, if you know WHY you're doing it...... instaed of being jealous or enveous of those who can jump putt, you'll be making more of your 60- 90 footers without fear of running to far by, or listing off to the side....

It looks to me, Geo, like you're not going to get enough support to realistically make up an anti-jump-putt rule.

Per you, apparently so many people jump-putt for advantage (including top pros, which is a little hard to believe), that you are going to have a hard time successfully proposing a anti-jump-putt rule with the current 50/50 split of opinion that this board seems to show. I'm personally surprised to see that so many people oppose jump-putts, but 50% is not enough, because too many pro-jump-putters will zealously strive to keep a rule that sanctifies a technique which they have
diligently practiced in order to save them strokes.

To them, it would be sorta like banning rollers or sidearms or pushputts.

Although I guess there's no harm in brainstorming on the board to maybe find a brilliant solution.

While I'm mildly pro-jump-putt, I certainly am uncomfortable with the current rule, the result being that, as a competitor, I need to watch my opponents' jumpputt to see that the disc releases a nano-second before feet leave the ground. I certainly hate a rule where, after a shot is executed, the group will likely need to vote as to whether it was legal or not.

Maybe if you had proposed this years ago, before jumpputting became popular (per you), then we'd have a better chance of winning a rule change. But NOOOOOO, the rules committee back then was too busy farting around on the golf course having fun when they should have been attending to bizness, those LAZY BASTARDS! :)

to say that a jump putt does not give an advantage or doesn't help people when clearly it does. I've seen undeniable proof over the years of this and here's one of many examples--say u have a 40 footer but you're consistantley hittiing 1-2 inches low on the basket--jumping foward turns that 40 footer into a 39-36 footer and 8 out 10 putt will more than likley go in a couple of inches higher w/ the same putt--I've done this myself.



That's like saying that throwing from the front of the tee box as opposed to the back is unfair ???

It's like saying a dart throwers hand crossed the line? Of course it does, the rule isn't where his hand is, it's where his foot is.

Are you going to say that Tall people have an unfair advantage too? beacuse there hand is closer to the basket form the same spot? What Short people should get to take one giant step forward when they putt? You have to be under 6 feet to play disc golf? In that sense I quote John F Kennedy. "Life isn't fair"

You exagerate your arguement to amusement. If some ones 40 footer becomes a 36, you've got problems Pal. That's not a jump putt it's some weird novice thing and is a penalty.

You're supposed to make the best shot you can from your lie. Your supposed to try and go over bushes ...that's the point ....you're supposed to try and find a way to make your 40 footer 39.8 if you can do it legally...

If you can get your body to do these amazing athletic things....by all means I WANT TO SEE IT!

If you haven't got the agility for it, try chess. :o

But don't count on me to be interested or taking pictures of it :D

I say let people jump putt from ANYWHERE. I could really care less if thier feet are off the ground when they let go anyway because the jump putt loses its affective ness if you let go even a foot in front of your mini. The momentum is lost and the jump putt is pretty much useless. Jump putting is a skill just like anything else. Should we start outlawing thumbers since Schweb can throw them like 380 feet??? That gives him an advantage over you. So should we make thumbers illegal if some people cant do them. NO!!!!!!!!!

If you cant jump putt and are complaining about people who do jump putt i suggest you stop wasting your time here complaining and you go to the course and learn how to JUMP PUTT. It will make you a better player. I use my jump putt all the way out to 100+ feet. When i get out that far though i am using it as a lay up and im not trying to make it. This can also shave strokes off your game.

Jump putting is SWEET!!!!!!!!!!! Had it not been for Jump Putting i would have had about 12-15 more strokes added to my score at worlds :D

While I'm mildly pro-jump-putt, I certainly am uncomfortable with the current rule, the result being that, as a competitor, I need to watch my opponents' jumpputt to see that the disc releases a nano-second before feet leave the ground. I certainly hate a rule where, after a shot is executed, the group will likely need to vote as to whether it was legal or not.





Lao Tsu said "people tend to find what they are looking for"

So are you looking to imrove YOUR game, or petty reasons to bring your competitors down?

You speak as though lowering your score through skill is a bad thing?

You guys sound like Animal Farm




If you were a true Pro, you'd be more concerend with your own game, and assume that the other people in your group know what they are doing.

FYI. Very few of the top pros do not employ the jump putt.

Thank You Pimp for the words of reason.

You are 100% correct, there is an equal and opposite down side to the jump putt
One of them is to not do it when your 45 feet (I'm sure you'll get it) :D

I think they would propose gimping the field until we all threw the same drive, the same putt, no rollers, not people over 6 feet tall, no long armed people, and most of all no fun or variety.

Just a bunch of stoic hovelled players and incredibly dull competition.

I�m trying to think of the name of the Vonnegut book (which became a movie) where they gimped every body in the name of �fairness�..
If you were fast, they made you drag weights, if you were tall they made you walk on your knees and so on, so that no one would feel inadequate or offended.

Let alone that jump putts are much more exciting for the crowd, and the camera, and therefor the growth of the PDGA.

Thank You Pimp for the words of reason.



Your welcome :D

I�m trying to think of the name of the Vonnegut book (which became a movie) where they gimped every body in the name of �fairness�..
If you were fast, they made you drag weights, if you were tall they made you walk on your knees and so on, so that no one would feel inadequate or offended.

Let alone that jump putts are much more exciting for the crowd, and the camera, and therefor the growth of the PDGA.



It was a short story from the "Welcome to the Monkey House" collection ;)

Yes!

More glimmers of hope

Dvincent just made my hero's list. :D

Vonnegut is one of the very few writers that interests me :D BTW if for some reason I do not make the San Diego team... :D

Hey DV

No clever retort from Bayne? :o yet....

He must be formulating.... How many feet is this hole?

have you read TimeQuake? Vonneguts last novel and informal farewell?

It's brilliant. I have a copy if you're interested. :D

Hey DV

No clever retort from Bayne? :o yet....

He must be formulating.... How many feet is this hole?

have you read TimeQuake? Vonneguts last novel and informal farewell?

It's brilliant. I have a copy if you're interested. :D



Haven't read that one...Definitely interested...will check Ebay & Amazon... :cool:

Lao Tsu said "people tend to find what they are looking for"

So are you looking to imrove YOUR game, or petty reasons to bring your competitors down?

You speak as though lowering your score through skill is a bad thing?

You guys sound like Animal Farm




If you were a true Pro, you'd be more concerend with your own game, and assume that the other people in your group know what they are doing.

FYI. Very few of the top pros do not employ the jump putt.



Don't know who Lao Tsu was, but I'm guessing he did say something like "people tend to find what they are looking for"

It is an interesting quote because of how it is applied.

Let's take the case of the jump putt. Each side could say the other has found what they are looking for. Those for, would say those against are trying to eliminate it because it will give them an advantage. Those against, would say those for want it because it gives them an advantage. As you can see, the position of each is the same. Lao would probably be amused that many people take in interesting point such as this one and efficiently apply it to others while neglecting to apply it to themselves.

Advantage or disadvantage is irrelevant to the point at hand. The question is: is the jump putt legal, both in terms of how it should be used, and in terms of how it is used. The reality is that the jump putt, if used correctly, is legal. The problem is that the way it is used is often illegal, and almost always questionable. That is, the timing of the jump putt has to be exquisitely fine for it to be effective and legal. There are many testimonials here of people that have observed others foot fouling on this type of a throw.

Basically, the situation is that you have a rule that is often abused (unintentionally), and that requires a fast motion camera to catch - that is, it's impossible. The fact is that the rule should be modified so that we have consistency for all players. Either allow everyone to pull their foot on jump putts or make them illegal.

The notion of a level playing field (especially as espoused in Animal Farm) is not about a level playing field. It is about saying everyone should be equal while a few take advantage. The idea of equality was used by a subset of unscrupulous individuals who had not true interest in equality. The idea of constructing rules that can be equally applied to all players has nothing to do with this. When a rule is unclear or players are incapable of equally applying a rule, there is a problem. The idea that those wanting to fix it want to bring others down to their level may be incorrect.


BTW - since we are doing famous quotes:

Show me a sane man and I will cure him for you.

Carl Gustav Jung

Don't know who Lao Tsu was



Also spelled Lao Tze he was/is known for The Tao De jing.

I think you missed and made my point. :confused:

Of course you have to apply the law both ways.

What I was trying to say is:

You can look for your competitors to play to the best of thier abilites, and use every advantage (legal) that they can, and try to beat their best game.

OR

You can spend you time looking for every little rule you could call them on, be petty, and try to beat them that way. It depends on how you want to spend your time, and what kind of experience you would like to have? I think Lao would like that. I would opt for the former, and I hope all of you would too.

I have heard of scores being effected because some one called another player because their toe was making contact with their mini when they were putting. Technically it was a violation, but more than effecting the putt itself, which it really did not, it was a mental thing called "gamesmanship" in bal;l golf, or trying to get into some one head to throw their game off.

If you feel good about winning that way I'm not sure what to say? I do believe you, and your competitiors could share a better experience than that.

What Animal Farm pinted out is that no matter how you try to even the field politically, we are not all equall in the same respects, and it is not in animal (human) nature to behave as such if we want to excel and or survive.

What we can provide is equality of opportunity (IE the 10 meter rule) what we can not dictate is physical attributes. IE Player X has an "unfair" advantage becuse his arms are longer, and therefor his putts are shorter.
That is what Vonnegut & Orwell were getting at ?

Don't know who Lao Tsu was



Also spelled Lao Tze

Is that pronounced "lou sy"?

Sorry.... couldn't resist :D It's a slow day at work.

good then take it back to the omb thread :D

Lou Sy ...

Funny.

See it illustrates it self ..people tend to find what they're looking for :D

How circular...and we like circular :cool:

it's been slow all week ..... :o

Actually,

I did get your point, I'm not sure you got mine...

Focusing on one's game to the exclusion of what other players are doing is fine, if other players aren't cheating (intentionally or otherwise). The idea that players, pro or otherwise don't take advantage is naive (one simply has to peruse this site to see that it isn't true). Therefore, you should have a set of rules that are easy to follow and easy to implement. The beauty of that is that infractions are so obvious that one can easily call them and one will not be tempted to break the rules. The jump putt steps outside of the bounds of an easily called rule and therefore creates a potentially unfair situation. If someone is using it to their unfair advantage and you are not, your best game might not beat their best game because they have an advantage you don't. It's sort of like when NBA refs allow Jordan or Bryant to take an extra step or Shaq to mercilessly foul other players with his body. Essentially, they have an advantage that other players don't and it allows them to take their game to another level. It's beautiful to watch... is it fair?

BTW - I was playing with you about Lao Tsu - the reason I don't know who he was is because many scholars feel that he is an artificial creation and in fact that Taoism grew out of series of writings. These days with the internet the only person you might not know about is yourself. :D

Lao Tsu taught that all straining, all striving are not only vain but counterproductive.

I think that Lao Tsu might find the notion of competing, in any sport... amusing. But if he were to comment, he would probably say that if you relax and meditate you will win many more games, he is probably right.

Lao Tsu on Jump putts. Eastern Philosophy meets disc golf.

If a disc hits chains, and there is no one there to hear it, do they still go "ching"?

Yes, but can you do maintenance on them or do you have to be... insane?

A disc flies entirely in accordance with the laws of reason, and a study of the flight of a disc is really a miniature study of the art of rationality itself. I said yesterday that the ghost of rationality was what Ph�drus pursued and what led to his insanity, but to get into that it's vital to stay with down-to-earth examples of rationality, so as not to get lost in generalities no one else can understand. Talk about rationality can get very confusing unless the things with which rationality deals are also included.

It's all Greek to me : :D

A disc flies entirely in accordance with the laws of reason, and a study of the flight of a disc is really a miniature study of the art of rationality itself. I said yesterday that the ghost of rationality was what Ph�drus pursued and what led to his insanity, but to get into that it's vital to stay with down-to-earth examples of rationality, so as not to get lost in generalities no one else can understand. Talk about rationality can get very confusing unless the things with which rationality deals are also included.



I got about 1/2 way in when my ADHD kicked in. Its probably really intelectual and deep...but I'll never know.

A disc flies entirely in accordance with the laws of reason, and a study of the flight of a disc is really a miniature study of the art of rationality itself. I said yesterday that the ghost of rationality was what Ph�drus pursued and what led to his insanity, but to get into that it's vital to stay with down-to-earth examples of rationality, so as not to get lost in generalities no one else can understand. Talk about rationality can get very confusing unless the things with which rationality deals are also included.



Somewhere in all of that, I think I saw Schroedinger's cat...or did I?

I got about 1/2 way in when my ADHD kicked in. Its probably really intelectual and deep...but I'll never know.



Either that, or it's completely insane. I think that's the point.

Hi Jim.


A disc flies entirely in accordance with the laws of reason, and a study of the flight of a disc is really a miniature study of the art of rationality itself. I said yesterday that the ghost of rationality was what Ph�drus pursued and what led to his insanity, but to get into that it's vital to stay with down-to-earth examples of rationality, so as not to get lost in generalities no one else can understand. Talk about rationality can get very confusing unless the things with which rationality deals are also included.




Kind of like Rene Decartes and his development of the Catesean Plane
(the X,Y axis thingy with little squares you drew graphs on in high school algebra)

A young Descartes would skip class, lay in bed and space out at the celing above him. All of this starring at th ceiling led him to realize that you could plot any given point on a plane with the x,y axis system he developed.

He applied reason to his experience, and both were enhanced.

So it goes, Observation, (experience)
and then Theorem. From the Theorem you can make calculated predictions about future observations (experiences) ..

It's how we build sky scrapers, rockets and bridges and such :D

Back to the "if a chain hits a basket in the woods and there's no one there to hear it, does it make a sound?" question.

The answer is ..... YES most definatley says the Rationalist. I would guess that Lao would find some clever way to explain away it's pertinence ... and THAT is the difference between Eastern & Western philosophy.

The West is very caught up in applying reason to everything, whilst the east is still contmeplating wether that is really a worth while pursuit. Wether we can or really Do need to know much about what we "can not answer"

Personally when I putt, I think of Frank Zappa and the Absolutely Free Album.

"the first word in this song is Discoporate, it means to leave your body"

"the first word in this song is Discoporate, it means to leave your body"



As oppossed to discorporate which means to leave your company.

Then there is the ever popular discopulate which means...

Alright, thats enough purile behavior for one day, back to the "how do I throw further than 200 feet thread."

Personally when I putt, I think of Frank Zappa and the Absolutely Free Album.


Much more apt than We're Only In It For The Money, eh? :o

...me? My putting is much more likely to resemble Freak Out! :D
...or perhaps, [when I hit the 'spank' ring], Bongo Fury.

The jump putt rule is fine how it is. Everyone is aloud to jump putt and you are pretty much doing it wrong if you are leaving the ground before you let the disc go. I could really care less even if someone IS leaving the ground before they let the disc go. The way the rules is set now pretty much is detering people from trying to take a running start leap in the air from their mini and basically try and slam dunk their putt in the basket. That would be the only way someone is getting an unfair advantage. If you are off the ground when you let your putt go on a jump putt you MIGHT be be an inch or MAYBE 3 infront of you mini which isnt going to give you any type of advantage when you are putting from outside 33 ft anyway. Maybe if you were 5 feet away and the extra inches made it possible for you to lean over and place the disc in the basket but once you get outside 33 ft a couple inches is really no advantage.

Sorry to burst your bubble but even if someone is jump putting illegally its not giving them an advantage over the person who is jump putting legally. Both legal and illegal jump putters DO on the other hand have an advantage over people who dont jump putt:D

Much more apt than We're Only In It For The Money, eh?




Yes exactly ....One Size Fitz All :D

The West is very caught up in applying reason to everything, whilst the east is still contmeplating wether that is really a worth while pursuit. Wether we can or really Do need to know much about what we "can not answer"

ok boyz-n-girlz youve messed up eastern philosophy enuf for one thread. the east is not "still contemplating" anything, at least what happens if no one/thing is around to hear it. they've already figured it out that it doesnt matter and therefore is worthless to think any further about it. they're not confused about it at all. they do, however, in moments of )ir)rationality, wonder why the west applies reason to everything but still does things like re-elect W. :D

What Taoism means to me. A young girl sits crying because she is hungry while her mother gives offerings of their meager food to deities. All religion has some good and some bad, whether it be Eastern or Western. The problem is that we tend to view our own personal religion as perfect, whether we be Eastern or Western and viewing one or the other. The secret is simple enough. Remember the Golden Rule.

Man, and I only thought you could post about your great throwing skills. You know jump putts too? :D

you talking to yourself, Lyle ???

The secret is simple enough. Remember the Golden Rule.



What's that??? He who has the gold rules? :D

Jump putts are so ***. Be a man and use your upper body strength. [*****] [*****].

JBe a man and use your upper body strength.

Some of us aren't quite as "muscular" as you are, Chris. :D

Jump putts are effective Chris...Maybe your forearms are stronger from other reasons....no I mean from posting so much /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Man, and I only thought you could post about your great throwing skills. You know jump putts too?



Now if i could just get them both to work on the same days i might be good :D

No you would be "freakin AMAZING".

LMFAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Who here's more manly than http://www.centxdglove.com/uploads/David_mini_117hx153_CIMG075.jpg Avery Jenkins?!? [1002 current]...shown using his whole body, including brain-bone.

More manly? That would be me. I'm a bad man. You want a piece of this?

Good one Chris!! :D

Avery may be manly, but in that picture, he sure looks light in his loafers.

A disc flies entirely in accordance with the laws of reason, and a study of the flight of a disc is really a miniature study of the art of rationality itself. I said yesterday that the ghost of rationality was what Ph�drus pursued and what led to his insanity, but to get into that it's vital to stay with down-to-earth examples of rationality, so as not to get lost in generalities no one else can understand. Talk about rationality can get very confusing unless the things with which rationality deals are also included.



Hence the "How Do I Throw My MRV" thread.

A disc flies entirely in accordance with the laws of reason, and a study of the flight of a disc is really a miniature study of the art of rationality itself. I said yesterday that the ghost of rationality was what Ph�drus pursued and what led to his insanity, but to get into that it's vital to stay with down-to-earth examples of rationality, so as not to get lost in generalities no one else can understand. Talk about rationality can get very confusing unless the things with which rationality deals are also included.



Somewhere in all of that, I think I saw Schroedinger's cat...or did I?


Remember, you never get to see the cat... the only quetion is if the cat is dead or not in that dang box.

back to the begining...

As you all know a jump putt can make a 35-50 foot put a lot shorter due to the jump foward.



WRONG!
Not at all. You still release the disc form the same distance.

If you see some one releasing a jump putt after they have left there mark, by all means call it, it's a penalty....

You do not jump putt to shorten the length of the putt.

You jump putt for the follow through.


Why?
Beacuse using arm motion for distance tends to pull the disc right to left or left to right.

Exchanging that energy or motion for a jump or push allows you to propel the disc toward the basket with less side to side (arm) motion, thereby increasing your consistancy.

All you have to worry about theoretically is height.

Likewise the jump putt can allow you to put a better controlled touch on your distance, again arm motion for this pulls you side to side. IE to throw a disc relatively far, you must bring it to the side of your body in the back swing.

The first thing you want to do to increase your putting consitancy is reduce the back swing as much as possible especially to the side of your body.....

It's not just for putting either..... you can use it to apporcah as well. Say your 120 feet out with a steep drop behind the basket, you can lunge forward as you release to use your body momentum to "push" the disc towarss the basket, instead of the side to side throw thing discussed earlier.


It can give you lift momentum as well. Surely you can see the difference here?

You know what happens when you point the nose of the disc up right? That's not going to work....

Thsi is elementary bio-mechanics. If you know a educated personal trainer, ask them. even if they don't play disc golf, they can help you understand.

It will work even better, if you know WHY you're doing it...... instaed of being jealous or enveous of those who can jump putt, you'll be making more of your 60- 90 footers without fear of running to far by, or listing off to the side....


I don't know how this could be misunderstood, but let me try and illuminate it for you. The idea of the putt being shorter isn't that you actually get closer to the basket. The idea of being shorter is that you can use the same amount of arm/wrist power you would use for a 20 footer to hit a 40 footer with the jump. So while the disc is flying the same distance, according to your hand you only threw it 20 feet. According to your logic, not allowing a follow through on a drive would not then lengthen the course, which it effectively would.

three thoughts on the subject

you jump because your follow through propels you toward a bellyflop (learn how to face fall and your jump putts will improve)

putting your entire body on the same vector may increase the percentage of hits

the willed commitment of the body and mind toward a single goal provides a metaphysical factor: concentration, focus, desire, ......, your desc here

The Jump Putt is highly effective for myself & I believe the main reason is because it's a mental thing for me. In my mind I think it's propelling me closer to the basket but my release point is still in contact with my lie. I think 90% of it is in my head but it's been very effective for me & I stink at putting.
Just my 2 cents

Jump putt implies jumping, then putting. Not legal.

Call it a putt jump. The putt jump implies putting, then jumping.

Jump putt implies jumping, then putting. Not legal.

Call it a putt jump. The putt jump implies putting, then jumping.



I think we already covered this earlier in this thread! :p

We did and Putt Jump not only sounds stupid but we proved above that its doesnt matter if Jump is before or after putt.

Look for justification a few pages back in this thread :D

Im still going to JUMP PUTT and call it that :p

Jumputts are cool.
Dumbputts are not.

Jump putt implies jumping, then putting. Not legal.

Call it a putt jump. The putt jump implies putting, then jumping.



Nice use of BOLD though Andrew. /msgboard/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

I have tried jump putts ......I dont think they are consistant......my body is moving to much for me to release correctly.....