Discraft first of all let me say THANKS for EVERYTHING you have ever done for me. It is because of you I have been able to be where I am at today and been able to see all the great facets of disc golf across the country. I have always enjoyed Discraft and the people that work there, and I will always remain a friend and a supporter of Discraft. With that said, I will regretfully have to pass on apologizing to Ron. He has insulted and disrespected me way to many times. I have in the past tried to call Ron on his actions and I would have better luck trying to convince a dog that it is a cat. He is irrational and does not listen. I have fought this fight with Ron several times over the years, and it continues to happen time and time again. Ron did the exact same thing that Cam did in Columbus right here in Tulsa, at the Oklahoma Open. He was very rude and disrespectful. I took it very personal due to the hard work and time myself and others of the Tulsa Disc Sports Association put into the event. I understand this will cost me being sponsored by your company but I have been having personal issues with the continued support from Discraft of Ron and Cam. I personally don�t want to be associated with any team that those guys are apart of.

I know I have been very outspoken on the discussion board but I have always had the most respect for the game on the course. I believe in playing the game with integrity, I was the one that turned myself in for playing the hole at the Worlds wrong. The aforementioned golfers above do not respect the game or the players that play the game. For myself not to be a part of the team that they are on, I�m alright with that. I�m sorry it came to this but I will not have ANY hard feelings toward Discraft in this decision. So this is my resignation letter. Thank you again for every opportunity you have provided for me I will always appreciate what you have done for me.


Kevin McCoy

I'm sorry to see Discarft lose anyone, but it seems like you are making the right decision for yourself. I hope you can find sponsorship elsewhere and keep playing at your current level, or better! Good luck Kevin.

Kevin, WOW!! I totally respect your postion and I'm honored to be your friend. You talk the talk but you walk the walk and for placing you personal ethics ahead of personal gain, I applaud you. :cool:

Hopefully the powers to be will hear your plea to clean up our game. Innova are you listening? Sign this player up ASAP! :D

Well that $uck$, but i respect your decision Kevin. It was an honor to be able to call you a teammate and friend. You are/were always my favorite teammate. Now you can throw that Stingray that you always joke about! :D

What up McCoy,

I know you prolly dont remember this but Josh Romine and I Played a practice round with you before DGLO. I enjoyed playing that round because even though you are a super pro you had no problem joining us and playing a round with the "JV" guys as you put it. You were a pleasure to play with and a GREAT Rep for Discraft. It will be a great loss for Team Discraft, but it sounds like you know what your doing. I know all the Team Discraft fans like myself will be sad to see you go.

I wish you the best of luck with the rest of your disc golf career. Wherever that may take you. Unless its to the darkside and then i cant tell you how we will feel :p

Steve MillZ
AKA CB_Disc_Pimp

I would have to agree with Kevin's assessment of Ron's behavior at the Oklahoma Open. If any one needs to apologize, it is Ron. This type of player, which Discraft continues to support, is a detriment to the game.
Ron's attitude towards other players is, well, just plain being an ***.
Attitudes like this will do more harm than good to the sport that we all love. The weekend of the Oklahoma Open, I heard more than several times, amateur players commenting on what an AZZHOLE HE WAS. These are the players that support the game on a day in - day out basis and simply came out during pouring rain just to watch the Pros play.

Kevin, your choice is admirable. Discraft, your choice to continue to support this type of behavior is disgusting. :(

Please don't bash Discraft....I don't want this to turn to that at all

Sorry, but I'm an Am player that calls it like I see it.

I have no loyalty to any manufacturer, only to the game.

Mad love wherever you end up bro. You know you got my support.

What would you have Discraft do? Companies sponsor people for how they play GOLF, that's it.

What would you have Discraft do? Companies sponsor people for how they play GOLF, that's it.



Companies want to sponsor players who will represent them in a positive manner, and who will help them sell products either directly (through active recommendations), or indirectly (by providing visibility). Specific selection criteria differ among manufacturers, but most are looking for players who: reach the finals with a fair degree of consistency; are responsible and well-spoken; and are respected by, and influential among their peers.

Here is the problem, Ron is not respected, but he has been very influential to remind me to never be like that.
Thanks Ron.

I guess they live by the motto "Production overcomes a multitude of sins"

I wish you the best of luck with the rest of your disc golf career. Wherever that may take you. Unless its to the darkside and then i cant tell you how we will feel :p





He's leaving the darkside Millz. He just wants to throw tha ROC! :D

Much respect for ya Kev. You've always been a class act and a great rep for the sport.

WOW BIG UPS TO YOU KEVIN
i've been playing for a long time now and i've always had the opinion that ron was a jerk and had no respect for the game,
but why blame ron...he's just being the jerk he was born to be.
i think the blame should fall on all those who have allowed this type of behavior to go on for so long.personally i think ron is just bitter that his game never got to the point he would like it to be and can't stand to see people that he used to be as good as pass him by and have robbed him of his glory.
i know people now who are touring pros that i used to kick thier butts every time i played them,but thier game got better and mine didn't and i'm fine with that,i'm happy for them.i think intill the pdga is ready to say this type of behavior will not be put up with it will continue to go on.

Wow! Ballsy! I like it.

Mr. McCoy,

I have seen you post numerous times on the board regarding many topics regarding this great sport. I have to say that hands down you tell it how you see it and by any means that's a lot coming from a player of your caliber. I know you will continue to do well in everything you do on and off the course......Good Luck.

FYI - I was in Norman this past year and had the chance to take my son with me. We walked the Final 9 while you and D. Stacey threw them out for #1. I told my son that you were a touring disc golfer and that was your job description. He was in awe of your performance and although you were edged by a stroke. You were still a winner in my kid's eye. So now he chooses to throw Discraft plastic because the best in his eye's did so.......So regardless of what some may say you are a class act.

That ace may of helped persuade my kid too.... :D

McCoy! :)

Ya know, even though you have always thrown the wrong religion you have been one of my favortite pros. You're funny and really try to keep the game fun. It is disc golf, after all. (We all the know the illigitemuses corborundum us some of the time.) You are an over-the-top goofball on the discussion al lot, but your love and dedication to the game have never in my mind ever been in question.

I'm really sorry to hear this shake out like it is. It was a bad sign when your sponsor didn't want to believe your take on Cam, but instead think it was some message board conspiracy. I commend you an trying to clean up the game and starting at home, on your own team. If the head cheeese of the team doesn't want to believe one it's top and most credible team members, then I see why you have to make this tough choice. It does suck, though.

Man, they are demanding that *you* apologize? Whatever.

Keep the faith, brother. Maybe you can get sponsored by Gateway so that you'll continue to throw the worng religion. :)

But I'm thinking you'd look pretty cool in an Innova floppy hat.

We had no intention of bringing this out to the public, however Kevin�s post of a private e-mail that he sent to us may be misinterpreted without the context of what went on. Kevin�s decision came from us disciplining him regarding publicly threatening physical violence against Ron Russell on the PDGA Discussion board.


Quotes from Kevin on the Veterans Park Open (http://www.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=TournamentInfo&Number=234284&page=1&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=all) thread:

�30 seconds may be drastic but 5 minutes between shots will get him a size 10.5 New Balance firmly kicked on his nuts.

I'm already tired of waiting on that piece of excrement and I'm not even there yet!�

�If I just clubbed him to death with an 33inch 29once Easton do you think I would get suspended by the PDGA or be up for Player of the Year for erasing this ungrateful, mopping, lame ******* from the scene!�

�I would like to inflict a head injury that would take Mr Sunshine out FOREVER!�


We then informed Kevin of our disappointment with the following letter:


<font color="red"> Kevin,

This is to inform you that threatening Ron Russell on the PDGA Discussion board is unacceptable.

The PDGA has rules of play and if you feel that someone is violating the rules call an infraction and follow the proper procedure. Your rants on the message board are inappropriate, juvenile and may even constitute the basis for legal action. I have been extremely tolerant in the past but you have gone too far. You have shown yourself incapable of controlling your off course behavior, specifically on the PDGA Discussion board.

As a consequence you are suspended for 6 months from Team Discraft. Reinstatement after that period is conditioned on an immediate public apology on the PDGA Discussion board to Ron and Discraft, as well as a personal apology to Ron. If this is not acceptable than I thank you for your past positive contributions and hope that you can someday grow to be more responsible than those you accuse and belittle.</font>


�End Letter


We are in no way condoning what ever may have happened at the Oklahoma Open with regards to Ron. In matters of on course conduct we try to leave that to the players and the PDGA to police. No tournament antics or hurt feelings can justify threatening someone�s life in a public forum. We do feel that Kevin�s posts were out of line and we will not tolerate one of our sponsored players threatening anyone with violence.

:Dlol

intresting stuff..........

You missed the part when I said all that "hypothetically speaking" There was NEVER a threat. Sure I said those things they were on the board everyone else already saw them. I do feel that way when he is "doing the thing that he does!" :D (Inside Joke; Big Barry and Coda will appreciate that quote from Ron at the VPO.) He takes me to that point where I want to SNAP and go postal on him when he is "doing that thing he does!" :D:D

"we will not tolerate one of our sponsored players threatening anyone with violence"

Really! This one I have put in a file to pull out later.
My question to you.....Is threating of violence the only thing Discraft will not tolerate?
I have witness actions from members of team discraft that are dis-respectfull,illegal, and harmfully to the sport.
Are those actions toleratable?

intresting



MTL, you must mean "interesting". :D And here I was complimenting you on your spelling :eek: /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif HA!

Way to live and act by your values, Kevin.

Integrity is a BIG one! :cool:

Hey this thread has gone in a direction I didn't want. I NEVER wanted Discraft to look like the bad guy I APPRECIATE ALL THEY HAVE DONE for me? I'm not gonna mud sling with those guys. Sorry I disapointed you so much!

I understand this will cost me being sponsored by your company but I have been having personal issues with the continued support from Discraft of Ron and Cam. I personally don�t want to be associated with any team that those guys are apart of.



Ron and Cam? What about Hysell? Who wants to be on a team with THAT guy?! :D

Pretty remarkable if you ask me,

The things you state you will not tolerate from team members (off the course) apparently outweigh the ones you obviously DO AND CONTINUE to tolerate on the course.

I applaud the Discraft and Innova and Gateway folks for supporting so many avid and talented players. I wish I understood some of the motivations in supporting players that treat others with such disrespect. I have heard of no sanction against any of the bad behavior (or it's type) which prompted Kevins statements in the first place. Keith - your reaction has the "appearance" of reacting to someone who has himself reacted to continuing bad behavior. Demanding an apology to the original perpetrator perpetuates the "appearance" that such bad behavior is perfectly ok with you the sponsor. This (IMO) does not serve your better interests.

I would like to inflict a head injury that would take Mr Sunshine out FOREVER!

Damnit there goes my sportsmanship player of the year award chances. Ah hell I just have to settle for the Voluteer of the Year award at the YMCA (won by default)that's enough awards for one decade

This is the kind of smacky humour I've come to expect/appreciate from Nina Fo Fi Tre.

"You can't be serious". :confused:

http://www.aspencountry.com/aspen/assets/product_images/product_lib/31000-31999/31655.jpg

I wonder how many players would be 'in trouble' per their statements on this message board. Seems to me this board is used to vent issues of various natures and should continue to do so. If this board is used to get past and look beyond by venting frustrations then so be it. We cant all afford professional theropy!

Sorry to hear Discraft chose to discipline you Kevin. Also sorry to hear you choose to leave Discraft.

Wow, just for kicks I went and read the VPO thread to see how much vile intent might be laced in Kevin's comments.

If you guys had the same sense of humor towards the behavior of certain sponsored players as you have shown to Kevin's comments (which were obviously made in jest), the rest of us wouldn't have to put up with that type of BS.

Satisfy my curiosity Keith. Is there a written code of conduct you hold your sponsored players to? If not - perhaps now would be a good time to draft one . As someone who has written to you about one of your sponsored players - I'd be happy to assist you in understanding the expectations of those who receive your sponsored players at their events.

While on the one hand I can appreciate Mr. McCoy's humor, his straightforward approach to the game, and his opinions thereof, his way of coping with the problems of disc golf and other players are bad at best. I understand that Ron Russell and Cam Todd might be the back-sides of the same donkey (cheek to cheek so to speak) but Mr. McCoy's responses to these players flat out puts him in the same category. That is sad given that he holds his own game to such a high standard and could be a great role model for all players. The fact is you can't have it both ways, you're either above the fray or you contribute. Unfortunately, Mr. McCoy's message is lost by his participation. Keith is correct, there are ways of dealing with the problems. Obviously, those means are not always perfect. Nonetheless, they are what we have and they get better every year. Rather than slam dance other players, Mr. McCoy should have joined in the legitimate process to make the rules and their equitable enforcement better.

LMFAO....if that dosent sum it up!

hmmm . . so Kev, are you still gonna throw all discraft?

Step into the light...of a mixed bag! /msgboard/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

I'm calling a 30 seconds violation on Kevin. Haven't you all been putter pump faked to the point of hypnosis at some point? :DI played with him once and I kept stumbling forward on his putts.

I wonder what kind of mad poetry for the "bump n rhyme" thread this is going to generate out of Kevin...

Snatch him up Innova!!!

Keith,

If Cam and Ron are excused of thier actions on the course by belittling other players and the TD of the tournaments they compete in.

Would it be safe to say if Kev were to have won a Pro Worlds event he would have just got a slap on the hand too?

Just Curious....... :eek:

so Kev, are you still gonna throw all discraft?




Well behind the scenes I have been in talks with SOLO CUP (http://www.solocup.com/consumer/SoloGrips/SoloGripsPublic.html) , yeah the company that makes plastic cups and I have decided to start trying to play with plastic plates and see how many people I can beat with plastic picnic plates. :D

I wonder what kind of mad poetry for the "bump n rhyme" thread this is going to generate out of Kevin...



aw yes.....

He is going to make millions. If your listening Puffy, Get this guy on the Bad Boy label. You cannot go wrong.. :D:D:D

While on the one hand I can appreciate Mr. McCoy's humor, his straightforward approach to the game, and his opinions thereof, his way of coping with the problems of disc golf and other players are bad at best. I understand that Ron Russell and Cam Todd might be the back-sides of the same donkey (cheek to cheek so to speak) but Mr. McCoy's responses to these players flat out puts him in the same category. That is sad given that he holds his own game to such a high standard and could be a great role model for all players. The fact is you can't have it both ways, you're either above the fray or you contribute. Unfortunately, Mr. McCoy's message is lost by his participation. Keith is correct, there are ways of dealing with the problems. Obviously, those means are not always perfect. Nonetheless, they are what we have and they get better every year. Rather than slam dance other players, Mr. McCoy should have joined in the legitimate process to make the rules and their equitable enforcement better.



I'm pretty sure the legit ways of dealing with these situations were pursued, and when the results of those pursuits didn't achieve the desired outcomes, people get ******. So they try to pursue the legit ways again, and again, no results...sooner or later, the person with the complaint views the process as bogus, or at least without a consistent basis by which they judge actions of players. Where else is Kev gonna vent these frustrations to a listening audience but on a disc golf message board. If these actions hadn't taken place, or been dealt with accordingly, there would be no need for complaints, accusations, or perceived threats.

...looks like good grippy plastic! Nothing over 1.50g, though... :D

see how many people I can beat with plastic picnic plates. :D



Does that mean you're giving up the 33inch 29once Easton? Errr....or did you mean beat at disc golf? ;)

The thing that is so ironic here is that Kevin was the first player that has taken the time to write a formal complaint about the conduct of another player and submit it to the PDGA. That is the only step that can lead to a disciplinary action against another player. He went through it and all it got was a slap on the wrist of the guilty clown posy. All that came out of that was the experience, and the experience led him to believe that nothing would happen anyway because the equivalent of nothing happened (a slap on the wrist). Then he lashed out somewhere else and now has been punished for it. I am not saying it was right for him to lash out, but he is living proof that the process is not working very well.

We have a lot of people that post some unbelievebly bad stuff on this board, McCoy being one of them. :) The PDGA can handle everybody here at once if it were decided to be a problem.

But I can't see equating bad posting to bad behavior on the course. They just aren't the same. McCoy even got banned from the board once, but I don't think he's ever done anything at a tourney (that he was caught for :) ) worthy of discipline. Has he?

Granted nina can really go over the top on this discussion board. But when I had to call his shot OB at the SoCal Champs one year he was a pro about it and moved on. He did his job and made his case, and then I did my job an made a call. The guys on his card were mad but he wasn't. He played on!

As far as I'm concerned, on the course counts more.

As far as I'm concerned, on the course counts more.


Yup. Sportsmanship should never be overrated.

Wow, just for kicks I went and read the VPO thread to see how much vile intent might be laced in Kevin's comments.

If you guys had the same sense of humor towards the behavior of certain sponsored players as you have shown to Kevin's comments (which were obviously made in jest), the rest of us wouldn't have to put up with that type of BS.



I was joking entirely with Kevin on this and I think anyone that reads this board can tell most of it is smack talk. The talk about what happened with Ron and Cam is FACT.

Kevin..if you start throwing paper plates and wearing the monkey costume...disc golf has a new avenue to pursue :D

Way to stand by your principles..keep that smile on your face and enjoy DISC GOLF. I also had the pleasure of practicing with you, Barry and a few others at the VPO last year and it was fun. I even remember you stating your new job at the YMCA gave you back the fun in the game. You never cared who you were warming up with. Instead, you threw about 4 different shots on 1 hole just for the fun and to warm up the arm.

You 2'd it with a hyzer during the tourney :D

Tulsa - you have a great player there and Kevin I respect your game and ideals about DISC GOLF's direction more each time.

See you at the 10 on Sunday...$30,000 should cover all this posting.

17684

"Why can't we just all get along"
- Rodney King
/msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Scooby would switch to Innova. :D

So does this make the Proto Type action figure value go up or down?

Is it for sale?

I was the second highest bidder. :(

<-----is worth $100's now!

SELL SELL SELL!

Some of the tape has come loose. But it is still sitting on my desk at home. (next to Steady Ed's ashes)

I throw what nina throws. way to stand up for your beliefs

Scooby does throw Innova. Why? Because it's the right thing to do. :D

Controversy always increases the value of action figures.

does the action figure have put a size 10.5 foot in your ***** movement

In matters of on course conduct we try to leave that to the players and the PDGA to police.



Why can't (shouldn't) the sponsors play a role in this? The players and PDGA are obviously struggling with these situations.

Discraft (& other sponsors) please reconsider your position and power in these types of situations.

............ Keith,You ingnoant slut,A joke is a joke.And a size anything up anyones *** is a joke.I've heard you say it myself about people.It's a term used with no intent.And you know that. ................. We had no intention of bringing this out to the public, however Kevin�s post of a private e-mail that he sent to us may be misinterpreted without the context of what went on. Kevin�s decision came from us disciplining him regarding publicly threatening physical violence against.... Bull SHEIT ...... Ron Russell on the PDGA Discussion board...........I've know kevin along time,Man, He even worked for me for a year,And I never saw him violent.He's a guys guy,as you are( I thought).Your the one taking things out of context.(and clown posse sux!!!! M&amp;M rules.Aint know clown round here B ........
Russel is a hard guy to deal with,Unapproachable,Uncool and thats who you picked? dude.Keith I know you and you are cooler than that.I don't really think that your the one who did this to McCoy but if you are.I'll put a size 11 up yo *** :D
And remember STICKS AND STONES ,MAY BREAK YOUR BONES,BUT WORDS WILL NEVER HURT YOU

Quotes from Kevin on the Veterans Park Open (http://www.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Board=TournamentInfo&amp;Number=2342 84&amp;page=1&amp;view=collapsed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=&amp;fpart=all) thread:

�30 seconds may be drastic but 5 minutes between shots will get him a size 10.5 New Balance firmly kicked on his nuts.
I THOUGHT THAT WAS FUNNY
---------------------------------------------
I'm already tired of waiting on that piece of excrement and I'm not even there yet!�WE'VE ALL PLAYED WITH THAT KIND
---------------------------------------------------------

�If I just clubbed him to death with an 33inch 29once Easton do you think I would get suspended by the PDGA or be up for Player of the Year for erasing this ungrateful, mopping, lame ******* from the scene!� THIS COMES FROM McCOY BASEBALL DAYS( WITH THE CUBS)

�I would like to inflict a head injury that would take Mr Sunshine out FOREVER!�...........HARMLESS WORDS OF FRUSTRATION.AND BESIDES THAT, IT REALLY WASN'T HIM THAT SAID THAT!!! IT WAS MORGAN FAIRCHILD,YEAH THATS THE TICKET


We then informed Kevin of our disappointment with the following letter:


<font color="red"> Kevin,

This is to inform you that threatening Ron Russell on the PDGA Discussion board is unacceptable.

The PDGA has rules of play and if you feel that someone is violating the rules call an infraction and follow the proper procedure. Your rants on the message board are inappropriate, juvenile and may even constitute the basis for legal action. I have been extremely tolerant in the past but you have gone too far. You have shown yourself incapable of controlling your off course behavior, specifically on the PDGA Discussion board.

As a consequence you are suspended for 6 months from Team Discraft. Reinstatement after that period is conditioned on an immediate public apology on the PDGA Discussion board to Ron and Discraft, as well as a personal apology to Ron. If this is not acceptable than I thank you for your past positive contributions and hope that you can someday grow to be more responsible than those you accuse and belittle.</font>......... HONKY PLEASE!!!!!!!


�End Letter


We are in no way condoning what ever may have happened at the Oklahoma Open with regards to Ron. In matters of on course conduct we try to leave that to the players and the PDGA to police. No tournament antics or hurt feelings can justify threatening someone�s life in a public forum. We do feel that Kevin�s posts were out of line and we will not tolerate one of our sponsored players threatening anyone with violence.

I got three words for you Kev..... ROC, ORC and MONSTER!!

Everybody better watch out, I've seen what Kevin can do with a CE VALK.....it's sick!!!

MUCH LOVE BRO!!!

P.S. I think violence ROCKS!!! :D

Gotta give it up to ya Kev...big cajones to walk away from something like that...but I can't blame ya. I got to meet Ron at World's when he came through a few times. I found him to be pretty much, a jerk.

As for Discraft...I am not going to bash you because I think you make some high quality discs, but how can you let an upstanding player walk away and keep on two players who everybody knows are nothing but whinny cry babies? How can you discipline a person for a forum post? I mean...come on. I would have to consider what Cam and Ron did to be far worse than any forum post the supposedly condones violence(What a crock). Keep on rocking Kev.

Just my two cents worth...peace out...

I will go ahead and apologize if this post gets too lengthy. I actually was so ****** yesterday I waited till today to post.

This is absolutely unbelievable to me. Keith you know Kevin as well as I do. You know this board is a JOKE to him. He probably would NEVER hurt a fly. But that's not really what's astonishing to me.

The PDGA has rules of play and if you feel that someone is violating the rules call an infraction and follow the proper procedure.

He has followed the proper procedures and NEITHER Discraft or the PDGA has done sh*t really. The PDGA putting him on probation for the SECOND time doesn't really say much. How many times before he is actually suspended. AND, since they have taken SOME kind of action against him, Why hasn't his sponsor? Shouldn't Discraft be sending a message they support the PDGA's decisions?

Your rants on the message board are inappropriate, juvenile and may even constitute the basis for legal action.

This was the best statement to me. Having been on the "clown" round in Indiana, I witnessed the ENTIRE thing. The way Cam conducted himself was ridiculous. I told YOU & JIM KENNER (remember I'm an innocent bystandard) there was NO justification for his actions. It was unfair for his teammate to have to TRY and give him a stroke for his inappropriate behavior but it was really unfair to the other guys on the card who were just trying to play a friendly round of golf.

I have been extremely tolerant in the past but you have gone too far. You have shown yourself incapable of controlling your off course behavior, specifically on the PDGA Discussion board.

I think it has been we the players & fans who have been tolerant of Cam & Ron's behavior. Saying this, are you meaning it's okay if you make an as* out of yourself ON the course just don't do it on a discussion board where EVERYONE can read it?

Kevin has done NOTHING but be loyal to Discraft. The ONLY reason Discraft is as big as it is in Tulsa is b/c of HIM. Sure all the players are about making money off the discs but Kevin genuinely CARED about Discraft unlike Ron or Cam and THIS is how you thank him?

Sorry everyone for the rant but having witnessed both these players actions on NUMEROUS occasions I just couldn't keep my mouth shut.

Jamie Tayrien

As Mr. McCoy�s agent I would like to say we are open to contract negotiations. We are willing to listen to any offer but here are some major sticking points on our negotiations.

-First of all we are requesting a extended contract of 10 years at 4.2 million per

-Second stipulation- we are requesting guaranteed cash for 5 years and a signing bonus that is 25% of total contract

-Third stipulation- we will be requesting a new travel wagon. We have one picked out. 2004 H2 with 2 13inch plasma televisions, playstation2, X-box, wet bar, oh yeah seat warmers.

-Fourth stipulation- we will be requesting 3 months off for the first 7 years for Mr. McCoy�s rap albums, for touring and promotion tour. After �7th Heaven� is released in the fall of 2012 we will want to renegotiate

-Fifth stipulation- we will be releasing a new action figure and we are requesting to change to all future action figures to represent your team

-Sixth stipulation- Mr. McCoy will only sign autographs for women (in exchange for room keys or panties) and children, we all know he is a chick magnet and he�s tired of male stalkers. Silly F*&amp;&amp;$, D!*#$ are for chicks!

-And last but not least I King Kong will be requesting a $1000 monthly stipend to support my stripper habit. Mr. McCoy can make his own money for his strippers.

IF all these requirements can�t be reached I�m sure we can settle for a t-shirt and a few discs.

Sincerely,
The banana-ding dong, KING KONG!

sounds like disccraft needs look at this issue kevin sounds like a good guy. i know i crack up reading the stuff he writes on here which i think are his intentions. unless he is also really stupid i don't think he would post an assault before it happened. the way he wrote it was funny while still being able to vent a little, big deal i love throwing disc craft and innova don't know kevin but i'm sure he has turned on plenty of people to disccraft. i know if this happened to my hero who has turned me on to few disccraft discs there would be a lot of people boycotting disccraft. i'd have to think kevin has the same following. it's funny how we all see and hear the cam and ron issues. while someone else is sent packing for not willing to say i'm sorry you guys go ahead and keep giving the sport a black eye. we'll get rid of the guy who's sick of it.

before we meet you stipulations we are gonna have to ask you one question.

Do you know the meaning of integrity? :o

kevin's agent sure can throw a disc. i suggest innova's team champion pick both these guys ASAP. :D

... turn up the heat in negotiating there for McCoy , Mr.KingKong ;) ... most assuredly , Kev. will land on another mfg.'s team ( ie Innova , Gateway , Lightning ) ... it was good to see in catching up on these posts that McCoy bears no ill-will to Discraft ... quite the contrary : he seems to remain one of their best defenders ...
.
... I must post comment here on an aforementioned situation that I have direct-knowledge of : The Oklahoma Open ... this is not an attempt to defend Ron Russell , however , from the official O.O. point of view : there was no "situation" with this player ... even though Russell has never impressed me with his "people-skills" (rarely smiles / a bit of a chip-on-his-shoulder / not too amiable) ; I feel the need to point out that his comments to me (acting Tournament-Director for "away courses" at the 2004 event) were professionally given to me on site ... nothing derisive or antagonistic in person about his rating of the course or his concerns ... I encouraged him to converse further with the main TD (M.Barr) and the local course Pro (K.McCoy) about those issues ...
in TD meetings later , Barr had no problems either with Russell's actions or commentary ... that being said , we cannot attest as to what conversation or exchange was between R.Russell and K.McCoy ... apparently an unfortunate situation ... Kevin is one of "ours" and we back him thru all his work & positive efforts for the betterment of the Sport ... (Okla.State Coordinator , Touring Pro , local & regional TD , Club Administrator , course designer , & all-around volunteer) ...
.
... but , from the viewpoint of the event itself & staff , the 2004 O.O. was not "adversely affected" by a few players' opinions,concerns, or evaluations of one particular course in play ...

McCoy would be a great fit on Team Gateway....

sounds like disccraft needs look at this issue kevin sounds like a good guy. i know i crack up reading the stuff he writes on here which i think are his intentions. unless he is also really stupid i don't think he would post an assault before it happened. the way he wrote it was funny while still being able to vent a little, big deal i love throwing disc craft and innova don't know kevin but i'm sure he has turned on plenty of people to disccraft. i know if this happened to my hero who has turned me on to few disccraft discs there would be a lot of people boycotting disccraft. i'd have to think kevin has the same following. it's funny how we all see and hear the cam and ron issues. while someone else is sent packing for not willing to say i'm sorry you guys go ahead and keep giving the sport a black eye. we'll get rid of the guy who's sick of it.



Well, thanks Frank. I respect you imensly. I really wasn't going to get involved in this, but my name has been mentioned. By the way, if anything ever happened to my relationship with Discraft, i would hope that y'all wouldn't boycott them. Their support is great!(even if you are angry.)

TULSA and OKLAHOMA, don't boycott Discraft. Kevin doesn't want you to do that. He has stated that a few times now. He's still the coolest disc golfer in the midwest, and the ONLY discgolfer good enough to have an action figure. :D

I respect his decision, and his values, and i hope that he will come back to the team with even more super pimp powers than he left with.

See you this weekend.

Well doesn�t this stink����. Sorry to see Discraft lose a sometimes odd but always entertaining member of the team. Good luck Kevin, I hope you are able to resist the evil empire.

Well doesn�t this stink����. Sorry to see Discraft lose a sometimes odd but always entertaining member of the team. Good luck Kevin, I hope you are able to resist the evil empire.



:eek:LMAO :eek:

Robbie - you will have to take that BUZZ you have come to love out of your bag Still want the Sentinel? :D

I do agree with your post though (as I usually do see eye to eye with your opinion). Continually supporting bad sportsmanship and even seeming even condone it doesn't seem like a good direction for a leading disc golf producer.

Hopefully they will atleast respond to your email even if it isn't the answer you hope to see. Ignoring the problem won't make the situation fix itself.

You guys NEED to get over it. Discraft is going to do what they think is best. You guys dont have any decision in who they do or do not sponsor. You also have no say in who they kick off their team and for what reason. There has been 2 incidents with Cam that the PDGA has been involved in. 1 he was put on probation for. The most recent one he was pretty much fined 4000 dollars. Which in my opinion is INSANE. You guys said he was going to tank USDGC so he wouldnt have to donate anything. He went out and SHUT ALL YOUR MOUTHS and took 2nd place. Maybe you guys should be boycotting yourself and your fellow disc golfers for not reporting more of his OUTBURSTS. You guys just come on here and CRY CRY CRY. What you should be doing is complaing to the PDGA about his behavior so THEY can do something about it. Discraft as of right now knows of 2 things that Cam has done. NONE OF WHICH were cheating which to me would mean instant suspension from PDGA and kicked off the team. They know about 2 incidents where he got loud and in someones face. To me that is not grounds to kick someone off your Team. People do that EVERY DAY. You guys need to stop CRYING about it on here and go out and DO something about it like Kevin has.

Next time you see Cam or ANYONE for that matter behaving like that you need to report it to the TD and have him report it to the PDGA so they can do something about it. Crying about it on here does NOTHING. Reporting it to a TD or a Marshall at a large even WILL. Take it upon yourself to report it to the PDGA. Discraft will only take seriously the actions of the PDGA. As far as Discraft is concerned the complaints on here are just hearsay. Just complaints with no basis.
Maybe if ALL the complaints about Cam Todd on here had been reported to the PDGA then Discraft would have more to take into consideration but they dont.

Pure and simple as far as Discraft is concerned there have been 2 incidents involving Cam and niether of them warrant being kicked off the team.

Im sorry Kevin is leaving he was one of my Favorite Discraft Pros and a stand up guy as far as im concerned. I hate to see him go but atleast he is doing something about the situation and not just CRYING on here.

I think ol Ron has just had a bad year, I met him for the first time at Z-Boaz last year for a casual round and he seemed cool, but like Rooster said he was a whiner at TX states. Not defending discraft in any way, if Ron walked around and gave everyone a six pack I still would not throw discraft.

You guys dont have any decision in who they do or do not sponsor....

I hate to see him go but atleast he is doing something about the situation and not just CRYING on here.



You were correct on one point in your otherwise pointless indulgence in inane verbosity: We (a big, ambiguous collective 'we') 'don't have any decision' about who they sponsor or do not sponsor.

But you are wrong about us not doing something other than 'crying' on here (ironically, your post is nothing but a bunch of crying about us crying...) about it. I, and many others have expressed our intentions not to support Discraft because of who they have recently and continually decided to align themselves with.

So, while you see us as having done 'nothing', I have done as much as I see necessary with regards to this matter: I have written Discraft to express my concerns with their choice of sponsorships. I have also made a decision not to buy any more of their merchandise. Additionally, I will actively try to dissuade others to do the same.

As consumers we do have the ability to let companys know how we feel about them and their products. And more importantly, we have the power to affect their bottom line when they ignore our concerns or give us the finger. If Discraft truly doesn't care about how a lot of disc golfers are starting to perceive their image, then it won't be much longer until the point is irrelevant. A free market economy, baby--there's nothing more powerful!

Nice rebuttle Pimp...but aren't YOU whining now?

Post deleted by CB_disc_PIMP

I bet Discraft appreciates your stupid posts too.....moron..

The holes in your logic are staggering.

But they are tiny pin-holes compared to your complete lack of knowledge about the principals of business and industry.

Seriously, go get your MBA, and lets talk about it over a pint of your favorite beverage (are you old enough to drink yet?)

But let me help you get started. If me and my buddies don't buy discraft's products then their bottom line is slightly affected. When a hundred golfers make the same decision, they are affected a little more. When, over the course of time, their market share dwindles to single digit percentages as more-and-more individuals join in, then their bottom line is affected greatly.

As far as hurting the stores and re-sellers...I didn't suggest that we quit buying discs all together, did I? Now, stick with me, because this is important...we can continue to support our local disc vendor's business by purchasing other brands (with whom we feel more closely aligned). The most powerful and beautiful aspect of a free market economy is CHOICES. If enough people choose not to support your product, another will quickly emerge to fill its void.

FYI-I've purchased, I would guestimate somewhere in the neighborhood of 200+ discraft discs and branded merchandise. They're good discs. Nothing negative to say about their products whatsoever. But, because of CHOICES they have made about their sponsorship, and because there are other products and manufactures in their niche market, I have CHOICES to make about where to spend my dollars.

I bet Discraft appreciates your stupid posts too.....moron..



I was thinking the exact same thing. If the Pimp were my unofficial mouthpiece, he would be so fired. In fact, if I were legal counsel for Discraft, I would get a Cease and Desist order against the Pimp to prevent him from 'speaking for or about the company' and only further damaging their image.


i hate to break it to you but you and your buddies not buying Discraft is [ <font color="red">{not} </font> ] going to hurt them AT ALL. They could <font color="red"> </font> care less if you font buy from them.



Yeah, I'm sure Discraft is considering this as their next marketing campaign.

100 custom stamped disc from Discraft for the WVO two months ago.

Pimp, Honey, stick to the Bump and Rhyme thread.

And Rooster, I was always taught not to get in a fight with an ugly person...they have nothing to lose.

If you guys are soo concerned about the way Cam and Ron act, have you ever thought about doing somthing more personal about it, i mean dont just come on a discussion board and b1tch about these guys behind there back where theyll never see it. why dont you concerned members strap on a sack and talk to them face to face about there actions and how you think they are tarnishing the sport. Once you do that, than you can do all the criing on here youd like, untill that time comes, shut your pie holes throw whatever plastic you want and dont ever forget why you started playing golf in the first place. too many of you get carried away and take every little thing too seriously and think every little thing is hurting our sport. the only thing hurting it is morons like you saying youll boycott this tourny or this company and so forth, i just say [*****] it all and have fun throwing plastic. I dont know about you, but when im out on a beutiful day on a nice course, weather its a tourny or not, the last thing on my mind is how some jackass yelled at a TD, or how some company didnt respond to some insignificant aceholes whiny letter.

Rooster- How come all the illiterates come to Discraft's/Cam's/Ron's defense?

Perhaps it's time for an "Ask Rooster" thread... Rooster, what say ye?!!! :D

Pimp, you forgot about all of the tournaments that were sponsored by Discraft. It is quite possible that Discraft will be dropped from several tournaments and not asked to be a sponsor for many more. Do you think this has an effect?

Yeah...and you stopped throwing/purchasing Innova stuff when Mr.Todd played for them, didn't you? It's not like he's going to behave for any company. Go ahead, continue being an idiot.

Yeah...and you stopped throwing/purchasing Innova stuff when Mr.Todd played for them, didn't you? It's not like he's going to behave for any company. Go ahead, continue being an idiot.



You make a good point here, Joe Bob, when you assert that Mr. Todd is not going to behave for any company.

Wouldn't logic dictate that you dump him for someone who will behave? I mean, if a man of your mental capacity can clearly ascertain that Cam cannot behave any where, you'd t hink that a company full of seemingly smart people could come to the same conclusion.

I continually evaluate and re-evaluate my patronage of various products and companys. When Mr. Todd played for Innova, I wasn't aware of his negative behaviors. If he was still currently sposnsored by Innova, and Innova condoned his behavior in the same manner as Discraft does now, I would take the same steps as I have in this situation. You're asking a hypothetical; I'm discussing a real and current situation.

As far as the idiot reference: This, from a guy who has a Villiage People quote for a sig line?

I always liked Texans. You are honest people. You also like to spend your money catching "Rocky Mountain" highs, I love that. Thanks.


As far as the idiot reference: This, from a guy who has a Villiage People quote for a sig line?



As for the above remark......i can't help it. I'm ***! It's not like i had a choice. BTW, Are you busy tonight Mr.Cockadoodledoo? Slurp..slurp.

****!

Thats f-ing messed up.

I throw both innova and discraft...

The other day i purchased two discs off ebay from "CAM-5"

After I confirmed that it infact was Cam Todd that i bought them from, i politely mentioned to him that I was an am player who collects discs that are signed. I stated that if he could kindly sign one of the two discs I would greatly appreciate it.
Well, the discs came, and no signatures, thanks, etc...
On top of that, he woudnt give me a shipping discount for buying two discs. (although it postmarked ast 4.85) I paid $8. I wasnt mad about the money, because to be honest, he probably needs the money more than I do. I was miffed that he wouldn't sign the disc. What does this say about him as a person? In other sports, many professional athletes will sign memorabilia for fans as a gesture of courtesy. As a gesture or gratitude to supporting their sport, their lifestyle. When a professional athlete behaves poorly it reflects negatively upon the individual, the team they play for, and the sport. Now, I'm not saying that because he didnt sign my disc that he is a total [*****]... but, given his recent history, what value does an individual like this add to an organization, be it Discraft of Innova. When companies sit idoly when clearly action needs to be taken against an individual, that again reflects extremely poorly on a company. In all honesty, the bread and butter of Discraft, Innova, Gateway, etc. is not their top players, but the amateurs that buy their products. Why would Discraft want someone like Cam Todd to support their product. Sure, he's one of the best players in the world, but for me, that's just not good enough. A sponsored player should be an "ambassador" of the team. They should promote the crap out of their product, and that includes being am/fan friendly.
I deal with money... my job basically revolves around risk/reward scenarios. We've all seen discraft become very amateur/ people friendly with some of their great promotions- tournament/club deals. That is definitely a step in the right direction for Discraft. Having an individual like Cam Todd on their team takes that step forward, and reverses it two fold. In my opinion, Cam is not worth the risk. I wonder why discraft wouldnt better evaluate their team.

In part, the reason I opened up to throwing discraft was due to the actions of two team members. The fact that they took the time with an "am" to explain why they throw discraft, whether it be consistency, feel/ preference, or just simply out of convienience, said something to me. I found that there was more than just innova out there. I feel that being pigeon-holed to one company does limit an up and coming player's potential. I probably wouldnt have given Discraft a try without this player's recommendation. A professional team need players that promote their products/sport, not act like babies. Cam is not an ambassador of any team. Again, Discraft, what has he done for you lately...and at what cost?

that sucks!!!!

I bet Discraft appreciates your stupid posts too.....moron..



What is that supposed to mean. Stupid posts about what. I didnt say i was talking FOR Discraft i am just stating my opinion.

Here is what i think.

You guys are a bunch of CRY BABIES and you need to GET OVER IT. Stop worrying about what Cam does and start worrying about yourselfs. Im done talking about this.

Cam is on probation and paid a 4000 dollar fine.

Drop the subject and find something new to talk about :mad:

Maybe if the behavior continues and you CRY BABIES actually report it then you can come on here and complain about how nothing is getting done. Untill then stop ragging on Discraft and stop complaining about Cam.

musta said something wrong...I got censored.

Sorry Mr. PDGA man.

I could care less about Cam or anybody else....I am talking about your posts....why do they never make sense..

huh??

Sponsored players are an extension of the company. They may be great golfers, but they are [*****] ( I will just pre-censor myself) none the less. I don't think any company should discourage players from using their equipment. If they want to work closely with the players so that they get what they want for the upper levels of pro play then so be it, but you don't have to pay the guy for it. Companies aren't sponsoring players just to do it, they are trying to MAKE money. The only problem is that getting 2nd at the USDGC is probably going to move Discraft plastic. So while it may be a morally questionable situation, business-wise it makes perfect sense for Discraft. That's just my 3 cents ( I know it is supposed to be 2 cents, but darn that inflation.)

Pimp, you forgot about all of the tournaments that were sponsored by Discraft. It is quite possible that Discraft will be dropped from several tournaments and not asked to be a sponsor for many more. Do you think this has an effect? I know I won't be asking Discraft to sponsor my tourney next year because of their lack of action, and I have close friends that are Discraft pro's!



This IMO this will have an affect on Discraft. Not being asked to sponsor events IMO will hurt them more then Rooster telling everyone NOT to throw Discraft because he doesnt like them.

I tell everyone i meet to throw Discraft because i think their product is great and i think the guys who own run and work for Discraft are great people.

Im sorry that you will not be asking Discraft to sponsor any of your events next year :(

I know you guys dont like hearing what i have to say because i dont agree with you but you have to think of it from Discrafts point of view. They really have one 1 thing they can look at since he has been on their team. The incident that happend at the BHMO this year. Im not saying what Cam did was acceptable in ANY WAY. What i am saying is i dont think it grounds to be kicked off the team. Maybe a suspension. You guys cant factor in all this other stuff that you HEARD or that you have SEEN because obviously nothing has been reported to the PDGA or they would have taken action against Cam before or after the incident at Brent Hambrick. The guys who run the Brent Hambrick in NO WAY deserved that outburst and i want to thank them myself for running an AMAZING tournament. It was worth the walk across the Dam just to play in the event ;)

You guys did a wonderful job with water out on the course and i think that everything was top notch. Im sorry that my favorite disc company will not be asked to sponsor your event this year :(

I am now done talking about this topic.

What i say in no way represents the thoughts of feelings of Discraft. Its is my OPINION and ONLY MY OPINION.

Nice post Erick. Sorry about the Ebay transaction. There obviously must have been a "handling" charge....... :confused:

As for reevaluating the team, maybe you're onto something. But, yikes!, that might include chopping me :DAs a new father, with no time on my hands, 2 car payments, and 1 house mortgage......disc golf is not a priority anymore, it's a PLEASURE!!!!!

I think if more player's, sponsored or not, thought of our sport as a pleasure, instead of a money making machine, then we would all get more gratification out of the sport as a whole.

the Texas Whiny Beach Club on this thread has the same dorkuses that were whining and moaning about their precious payout while in line at Texas States.

its pretty freaking hilarious that they take potshots at Ching and Nez while complaining about a pro being less than an angel. they were doing exactly the same thing they criticize others for - EXCEPT THEY DIDNT HAVE THE NADS TO SAY IT TO THE TDs FACE!

sissy punks!

i'm gonna KEEP throwing EXCLUSIVELY DISCRAFT to protest these goon maroons! (and because it was, is, and forever shall be the best most consistant polymer on the market!) :D:D:D

<font size=5> AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D:D</font>

NO ONE SHOULD BOYCOT DISCRAFT!

throw discs if YOU like them, not just because a SUPERPRO is throwing them. Discraft will be fine no matter what, they make a good enogh product to sell discs even if they had Osama Bin Ladin, Charles Manson, and Scott Peterson <-(which is the lowest scum on earth) on the team.

I appreciate all the kind words from you all and all the PM's, you have treated me like I saved a baby from a burning house, but I really didn't do anything all that big. I just decided to go in a diferent direction. Thanks to the "other" disc companies that have expressed interest in me also.

I never intended this to be the soap opera As the Disc Turns but I do hope no one boycotts any disc manufactuer just because I have chosen to leave.

I looked for you last weekend at the TX10 Finals, old man. Figured you would be there since it's right in your backyard.

Can't tell you how dissapointed I was not to get to meet you face-to-face.

But there are lots of tournaments coming up. And we don't live too far apart. I'm sure we'll run into each other at an upcoming tournament. Soon, I hope.

We can talk about NADS, whiney *******, and such. I'll be the Big Show in Arlington. Look for me. It should be a blast.

Thanks to the "other" disc companies that have expressed interest in me also.




I think I know who has expressed interest in Kev and something tells me that he is interested in "them" too. :D

Check it! (http://www.tulsadiscsports.org/memkmccoy/index.html)

Well said Kev. I throw the disc's that I like and I really don't care who made them or what pro is endorsing them. The OK Open was the first A tier I ever volunteered in and the first time I ever got to see a group of superpro's play a full round. Even though it was raining, you and everyone on your card (except for Ronald) seemed to be having a good time and represented the sport well. I think you did the right thing leaving Discraft. You got to do what you think is morally right for yourself. :cool:

hell yeah!!!! the team of champions!!!!

Aww that is dis crap!! People should throw what they like not because some pro throws them.

Yo Kev, "THROW THE ORC DORK!!"

HA HA!!!

I throw all Discraft. Not because of who throws it, but another reason- I think they make better discs. I think that's why a lot of people throw one company exclusively.

Look at the Discraft team. When I look at it I don't see just Cam, Ron, and the other superpros on it. I see a lot of talented local and regional players. I think these people have more of an impact than a superpro who the average player sees once a year. These players have given me more of a positive outlook on Discraft than any touring pro has.

If what the top pros throw matters to you, look at all the people on the team not just a few.

no, i told you before i dont play one day events. as far as meeting, we met at states. remember? you were the one dissing the TD and staff while hiding in the crowd.

i just might be at the big show. but i must ask, if those are the topics, why do you like to talk about yourself so much???

Look at the Discraft team. When I look at it I don't see just Cam, Ron, and the other superpros on it. I see a lot of talented local and regional players. I think these people have more of an impact than a superpro who the average player sees once a year. These players have given me more of a positive outlook on Discraft than any touring pro has.




DING DING DING...............This kid knows what he is talking about. I think Discraft helps the local and Regional boys out alot more then ANY other disc company. They start with the Local and Regional guys who are coming up and give them sponsorship knowing that they will one day become good pros if not SUPERPROS.

I would also have to agree that the reason i throw Discraft if because i think the consistency and the quality of their product is better. I actually used to be an all INNOVA guy believe it or not. Thats actually why i push Discraft ALL THE TIME is because i have thrown INNOVA and know from EXPERIENCE that Discraft makes a better and most importantly MORE CONSISTENT product.

This is why i throw Discraft. NOT because Kevin McCoy did or because Cam Todd does or because Timmy Gill does or any of those guys. I throw it because i have found it to be a superior product and I like the guys that own and work at the company.

That being said I CANT BELIEVE KEVIN went to the DARK SIDE so quickly :eek:

No hard feelings Kev. Good luck and hope to see you around this year.

CB_disc_Pimp OUT

Living in Michigan just might skew your perception of what Discraft does versus other manufacturers, just as living in SoCal skews mine.

so what do they thro in cali? discs made of hemp? (yes, i do have one!)

rhett, i dont know about that one

as far as meeting, we met at states. remember? you were the one dissing the TD and staff while hiding in the crowd.



Oh, that was you? The guy who backed down and shut his pie hole like a little biotch when I confronted him? I wasn't 'hiding' in the crowd, you dim F*, I was in line. And I did talk to Larry about my displeasure.

You sure you really want to make this personal old man?

Oh, that was you? The guy who backed down and shut his pie hole like a little biotch when I confronted him? I wasn't 'hiding' in the crowd, you dim F*, I was in line. And I did talk to Larry about my displeasure.

You sure you really want to make this personal old man?



First off GROW UP!!!!!!!!!!!!! Second off if you ever get good enough to be sponsored ( which you prolly wont ) then i dont think anyone should sponsor you because you just threatened someones health which is WAY worse then what Cam Todd has EVER DONE!!!!!!!!!!!

Grow some BALLS and move up to Advanced BIG MAN :o

we talked but i didnt shut my pie hole when you confronted me, cuz you didnt confront me. hidin in the crowd, hidin in the line, whatever, same thing. if you talked to larry, then why was it necessary to lob insults from the crowd.. er, "line"? or did you talk to him after you made an embarassment of yourself in line?

hey, thanks for the props, CB! this is third time this punk has threatened me. what he doesnt know is that one of my co-worker's hubby is a prosecutor in the DA's office here. he just happened to stop by on friday after our department's thanksgiving lunch. he laughed after he read the previous lovenotes from punkie, but told me to be careful because people who are so pathetically stupid that they indict themself before they do something usually lack the common sense to not seal the case against them by not doing anything. with the written threats he basically assures me if even an acorn falls on my head during the weekend that there would be one less traveller returning to austin sunday nite. :D

I would also have to agree that the reason i throw Discraft if because i think the consistency and the quality of their product is better. I actually used to be an all INNOVA guy believe it or not. Thats actually why i push Discraft ALL THE TIME is because i have thrown INNOVA and know from EXPERIENCE that Discraft makes a better and most importantly MORE CONSISTENT product.



I would have to agree that Discraft is more consistent than Innova. I mean these message boards are a testament to that. If you want a Buzz you pick either D, X or Z and a weight, but how many different types of Rocs are mentioned at any given time on here Champion, CE, 9x,10x, San Marino, Ontario just to name a few. I mean if they are all rocs, why is everyone out to get a VERY specific group of them? /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

I would have to agree that Discraft is more consistent than Innova. I mean these message boards are a testament to that. If you want a Buzz you pick either D, X or Z and a weight, but how many different types of Rocs are mentioned at any given time on here Champion, CE, 9x,10x, San Marino, Ontario just to name a few. I mean if they are all rocs, why is everyone out to get a VERY specific group of them?



<font size=5> EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!</font>

I have been throwing ONLY Discraft all season and i can tell you if you lose a Discraft disc then all you have to do is go buy the same one and it will fly the same. Say you lose a 174 Red Wildcat that you LOVED. Just go buy another 174 Red Wildcat and you will LOVE that one too. I used to throw Innova and there is NO CHANCE of this happening with their discs. You lose a 174 Red Champ Valk your pretty much screwed because even if you go buy another 174 Red Champ Valk the chances are its not going to fly ANYTHING like the one you lost. Thats what i love about Discraft and DGA and that why i ONLY throw their stuff because i dont have to worry about relearning my discs every time i lose one. If i find a disc i like i buy 5 of them that way if i lose one OH WELL. I have atleast 4 Back Ups of every disc that i have in my bag.

My head hurts just trying to comprehend this lunacy.

To think that either Discraft or Innova are more consistant than the other is just silly. They both stink, actually, all disc golf manufaturers stink. Until they decide to spend the money to make their plastics in a "clean" room we are going to have to deal with the inconsistancies between runs. Neither company is better at this. For every instance that SOME one can Come Up WITH that Innova's discs ARE inconsistant, I can come up WITH one where Discraft has BEEN inconsistant.
Don't listen to Some one just because THEY like to CAPITALIZE random words. :D

Clean room? I heard the new swifters work great... :cool:

Until they decide to spend the money to make their plastics in a "clean" room we are going to have to deal with the inconsistancies between runs.


Maybe that's why my kids say they won't clean their room until Discraft cleans theirs! :p

To think that either Discraft or Innova are more consistant than the other is just silly. They both stink, actually, all disc golf manufaturers stink. Until they decide to spend the money to make their plastics in a "clean" room we are going to have to deal with the inconsistancies between runs. Neither company is better at this. For every instance that SOME one can Come Up WITH that Innova's discs ARE inconsistant, I can come up WITH one where Discraft has BEEN inconsistant.
Don't listen to Some one just because THEY like to CAPITALIZE random words.



Can you tell me what some of those situatoins are???

Pimp,

Ok I will try to keep this short. lol

Well when Innova comes out with 1st runs of discs there are sometimes tweaks needed, when the second runs come out 99.9% they are corrected and consistent.

When Discraft comes out with Protos/1st runs of discs there are sometimes tweaks needed, when the second runs come out 99.9% they are corrected and consistent.


Few examples of Discraft:

Crush= the protos/1st runs were not consistent (some understable, some overstable, some flat, some domey)

Buzz= the protos/1st runs were not consistent (some understable, some overstable, some flat, some domey)

Flash= the protos/1st runs were not consistent (some understable, some overstable, some flat, some domey)

Do you see a pattern?


But remember Pimp when they actually ran there non proto run/2nd run or whatever they want to call it 99.9% was corrected and consistent.

This pretty much goes with any disc golf manufactured disc when new. There are tweaks to be made are the first batch of protos/1st runs. That�s why there is proto/1st runs made.

You can sit there and glorify how Discraft are the best and I can sit here and glorify how Innova is #1 and the best. The fact remains the same; it is your choice and my choice to throw whatever we want.

I just prefer to throw Innova, not because it is the leader in Disc Golf manufacture, not because there are more top rated Pro disc golfers throwing Innova and not because someone said Innova was a better product.

I started throwing Discraft Cyclones and X-clones when I began playing disc golf. I was at league play and I bought a few Innova discs that I started to throw and I was hooked. I love there product and I am comfortable with there product. See the key word there �Comfortable�. If you're not comfortable with using your equipment, then it's all over. So it doesn't matter what brand you throw; as long as you are comfortable then it's all good!!

So I tried to keep that short. I am not bashing you or Discraft. So don�t try to take it there�.

I think discgolf hit the nail on the head with the most recent Z discs. You can also add the Z Pred with its different noses, some fly like Tbirds, where others are very overstable.
Due to the different mixes and enviormental variences, the plastics will cool at different rates causing inconsistancies.

It isn't just the first runs either, the more recent Buzzzs have been either domey or flat, both resulting in different flight patterns.

My head hurts just trying to comprehend this lunacy.

To think that either Discraft or Innova are more consistant than the other is just silly. They both stink, actually, all disc golf manufaturers stink. Until they decide to spend the money to make their plastics in a "clean" room we are going to have to deal with the inconsistancies between runs. Neither company is better at this. For every instance that SOME one can Come Up WITH that Innova's discs ARE inconsistant, I can come up WITH one where Discraft has BEEN inconsistant.
Don't listen to Some one just because THEY like to CAPITALIZE random words. :D



I'll take a wild guess you throw Innova?

Discraft's discs are not different with the same color in the same run. I believe the talk was more if you buy a few of the same discs at the same time will they do the same thing. With Discraft there are some differences over runs, but I'm pretty sure they are not as bad as Innova in this respect. Go buy 5 campion beasts/ orcs/ whatever in the same color, and see if they all fly the exact same.

Few examples of Discraft:

Crush= the protos/1st runs were not consistent (some understable, some overstable, some flat, some domey)

Buzz= the protos/1st runs were not consistent (some understable, some overstable, some flat, some domey)

Flash= the protos/1st runs were not consistent (some understable, some overstable, some flat, some domey)

Do you see a pattern?




Were they a different color? I've thrown and still throw those 3 1st run discs, and have had several of each. The same color discs flew the exact same way. Also, were they a lot different in flight characteristics, or only slightly noticeable. Was this just you that had this problem- could it be the archer and not the arrows?

Luke,

There were multiple colors and multiple users. They all had the same results.

Crush= the protos/1st runs were not consistent (some understable, some overstable, some flat, some domey)

Buzz= the protos/1st runs were not consistent (some understable, some overstable, some flat, some domey)

Flash= the protos/1st runs were not consistent (some understable, some overstable, some flat, some domey)

They were very noticable different flight characteristics. Input from about 20 to 30 different pros here in Wisconsin. I was just stating the facts of how every manufacture has inconsistent runs at times. Plus allot of it is in the users head. Hope that helped. Now onto other threads that are more important.

regarding innova, all i know is what i HEAR. but from experience with discraft i KNOW that i can take a NEW disc from my stash and it will fly EXACTLY like the one it replaces.

no need to look at its COLOR, research its RUN, plot the LATITUDE/LONGITUDE of the plant, or determine the PHASE OF THE MOON when it was spun.

I don't know sandal, I have 3 Crushes and they fly like 3 completely different discs, right out of da box.

Either way, it doesn't matter. The pimpslapping you laid down on Rooster makes me want to buy whatever you throw anyway! :D

There's nothing better than some pompous, self-important, holier-than-thou wanker attempting to show his moral superiority before he makes an utterly ridiculous hypocrite of himself.

Well, I guess it would have been better if it was on TV. :)

Yeah that was freakin GREAT!!!!!!!!!!

Rooster likes to talk smack but he plays AM2

Hey cockadoodledo move up and play in the AM1 division and then maybe you can open your mouth. Oh wait your not even good in the AM2 division so maybe you should just shut your mouth and move down to AM3 :o

CB_disc_Pimp thinks the Rooster prolly throws a CHICKENWING :Dmaybe thats why he cant even place well in AM2 :o

Luke,
I throw a mixture of both Innova and Discraft at the moment. It really depends what fits into my game at the time, as well as what is on the market.

I've got 6 first run Buzzzs right now that are all in the same condition, and even when they were all new, they all flew differently. No, they are not all of the same color, I've got 3 blue, 2 yellow, and 1 red. Again, all of them fly differently, even the ones that are the same colors. Basically, they will fly differently within colors. Color does not mean consistancy.

Lets just say, for instance that all discs of a certain model fly differently because of their color (like the 1st run Crush). Do you have any idea of how bad that can be? Of course you will have people who have their favorite color/flight pattern, but you will have vendors who cannot always provide those colors. This isn't always the vendors fault, for example the company I work for ordered a few cases of the Flash when it first came out. Every single one came to us in the same color. Thanks, I hope everyone like orange, because thats all we got.

I'm not anti Discraft, or pro Innova, I'm equally anti-everyone. When the manufacturers (all of them) start taking production seriously, then we can see who has the better plastic. For now, all we can do is just deal with the inconsistant discs that we have today.

The variables involved in an injection molded, weight sensitive, aerodynamic part are endless.
Even in a controlled environment there would be discs that fly differently.( even in the same run with same color and possibly the same weight.
.
Here is an example of how a batch of discs is run.

Lets say you want to run a different mold than what�s in the machine right now.
After hanging the next mold, you grab the profile sheet from the last run and set the starting #'s.
Short list.
1) Barrel temperatures ( 4-5 zones) ( can be used to adjust weight after mold is up and running

2) Clamp pressure ( can be used to adjust weight after mold is up and running

3)Injection pressure of 2-3 different zones ( can be used to adjust weight after mold is up and running

4)Injection Speed 2-3 different zones ( can be used to adjust weight after mold is up and running

5) back pressure ( can be used to adjust weight after mold is up and running
6) shot size ( can be used to adjust weight after mold is up and running

7) length of time for each phase of injection 2-3 Zones ( can be used to adjust weight after mold is up and running

8)Mold temperature sometimes depends on outside temperature if a thermulator is not used
9)Hold time after filling ( can be used to adjust weight after mold is up and running
10) overall cycle time ( can be used to adjust weight after mold is up and running.
There are several more but the point is made!

So now we go over to the Dryer ( mostly For higher end plastics) but it doesn�t hurt to dry everything you run.
How long has that material been in the dryer?
3-4 hours is recommended, but sometimes in been in 5 or 8 or all nightlong. The dew point has an effect on the melt flow, which can also be affected by the humidity in the factory or outside.

Ok we got the plastic from the dryer to the hopper, did we put in 50 lbs, 200 lbs or 500 lbs.
Well the batch we mixed or the compound the material manufacturer sent us is supposed to make this run weigh 175.
Well here goes!
It usually takes at least 5-10 discs to get the part filled as the mold temperature increases the plastic will flow better in the mold( assuming your using tower water and not a thermulator)The hydraulics on the machine can take up to 100 shots to be fully warmed up.
Every one of the 1st hundred discs could be hit with a little different amount of something as the machine warms up. This is without even toughing a knob to change the weight.

Back to the 5th disc to come out, (the first full shot)
Oh no it only weighs 168 and we really need some 175's what should we do.
Was the batched mixed well?
Should we just wait until the machine warms up some?
Is it colder outside than the last time we ran this material in this mold, was it hotter or more humid?
Maybe the material supplier was off on the specific gravity.
Well all I know is the boss said 175 and not too many 168's.
Ill just crank up the pressure a little, no maybe I should just turn the temp up a little, no maybe I should just wait a few more shots.
20 discs at 168, Ill just increase the back pressure, that should do it.
Bamm, 175g 3 discs in a row Yahooooo!
Oh no 176, 177, 180, I guess the mold is warming up some.
Should I turn down the back pressure?
No I can just decrease the cycle time or the barrel temp or both, that should do it, plus we can run more discs in less time.
Less time usually means less shrinkage out of the mold, domey, not as flat, less overstable too.
Well players complained the last run of these were too overstable any way.
Ill just decrease the injection pressure, bamm 175 again after 8 or 10 more discs go by.
200 discs later the weights are starting to drop, 173, 172, 171 oh yeah look at the hopper it's almost empty,
add some more material.

Are you starting to get the picture?
To some degree this will happen every single time you run a new mold.
.
Even if you put 500 lbs in the hopper and never touched the knobs at all, there would be changes in the pressures and speeds as the machine and mold warm up.
The facts are it is almost impossible to get a run up and going without touching the knobs,
Lets say you lined it out after 100 discs, Machine is up to speed mold is up to a constant temperature, your running great and every single disc is up to 175.
what should you do wit the 1st 100 that may be slightly different, throw them away.
If you ground them up and mixed them in it would still cause a change in the melt flow of the mix.

Besides the obvious human errors, miscalculations in formulations either at the factory or at the material manufactures factory, there's the need for the discs to weigh what you want them to weigh.

,,
Molding discs will always be a cross between science and art and the problems of inconsistency will almost never go away. Of course things can be limited, certain variables can be eliminated with larger runs of the same material without ever shutting off the machine or touching the knobs.
95% of all players who play this game and buy the discs couldn�t even tell the difference anyway.
For the 5% who can tell, take your discs out to the field or course and make sure you got one that�s right for you before you bust it out when you have something on the line. Whether that�s a challenge match with your buds, your 1st big pdga event or when your trying to get your A game on in practice, Test flying your discs will be the only real way to know if you've got a good replacement or not!

This should help answer some questions, but comlaing won't ever change the discs from having subtle differences and it surely wont be a subject that will ever go away either /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Thanks for all that info, very informative.
This much I know. A few years ago, I was open to anything from any manufacturer. I happened to pick up a "World's Biggest" JK Valk. Pretty sweet disc. After popping off a huge drive during a tourney, I immediately went to get another. It wasn't even close to the same disc. I recently picked up a Cahmp Valk out of a bin and I can't believe it's still called a Valkyrie.
Variances occuring during a run are mildly inconvenient but acceptable. Puposeful changes made to a mold or run to affect the outcome and produce something different are an annoyance that I refuse to put up with.
Just my not-so-humble opinion.
And I think 3M could make some SWEET plastic.

Wow, I just read through all of this and am very suprised. It is a real bummer to see Kevin jump, but I can honestly say I respect and understand his decision. I hope this game doesn't come to this, a few bad attitudes in the game and ruin it for everyone! Good luck Kev!

He has officially went to the DARK SIDE!!!!!

I like the decision Kev. It takes courage to walk away.

I've got 6 first run Buzzzs right now that are all in the same condition, and even when they were all new, they all flew differently. No, they are not all of the same color, I've got 3 blue, 2 yellow, and 1 red. Again, all of them fly differently, even the ones that are the same colors. Basically, they will fly differently within colors. Color does not mean consistancy.




What weights were all of these??? Did you weight them all on a digital scale to figure out if they were all the same. I mean they may all say 178 but you could have a 183 a 178 and a 174. Then even if they were the same color they would all fly different. The different colors fly different for sure but thats because different colors cool faster or slower which from what i am told affects the stability. I have had no problems with Discrafts consistency at all. The color thing is an issue but you learn which colors fly which way so then its not a problem. There is no method to the Innova madness and its impossible to keep up with all the changes they make to their discs.

I will always throw Discraft untill someone comes out with something that i feel is a better product. This may happen soon or may not happen at all. As of right now i havent found anything that can even come close to getting the Discraft out of my bag :D

I'd bet an offer of a sponsorship from another manufacturer would get the Discrap out of your bag. :D

So are Ken and Barry and Juliana and Des just that much more dominant that they can throw this terrible plastic and still win most of the time?

I'd bet an offer of a sponsorship from another manufacturer would get the Discrap out of your bag.



That we wont know unless someone wants to offer me a sponsorship and as of right now i dont even think im good enough for that and i also dont think anyone knows who i am :o

Plus if i ever do get sponsored Discraft would be my choice if they and some other company offered me sponsorship :D

So are Ken and Barry and Juliana and Des just that much more dominant that they can throw this terrible plastic and still win most of the time?



Its alot easier when you get free discs and can just sift threw what you have and find the ones you like. If your good you can throw anything. They choose to throw Innova. They would be just as good if they threw Discraft. I never said Innova was terrible i just said they are innconsistent and i choose not to throw their discs because i think Discraft is better and it works for me. I COULD throw Innova and play just as well as i do now i just CHOOSE not to. I like Discrafts Plastics better and I think they are more consistent.

This is just my opinion. You can throw whatever you want even if it is Innconsistant Innova :o

I never said Discraft were terrible I just said they are inconsistent and I choose not to throw their discs because I think Innova is better and it works for me. I COULD throw Discraft and play just as well as I do now I just CHOOSE not to. I like Innova Plastics better and I think they are more consistent.

This is just my opinion. You can throw whatever you want even if it is inconsistent Discraft.

Hmm, I see a pattern here. lol Man the replys here are getting even more stupid. Oh... lol

Its funny though because you seem to be the only one who thinks the Discraft is inconsistent. Pretty much everyone else on here agrees that they are the more consistent company. Nice work though on using my post to your benefit. That was clever :o

The only thing I am 100% sure of, is MY inconsistancy.

I COULD throw Innova and play just as well as i do now i just CHOOSE not to.




Is that really saying much? you could probably throw a paper plate and do as well as you do now! :D

I think Discraft comes out with pretty consistant discs, but I have also only throwing a hand full of them and don't have much to compare too.

I like Discraft's discs...AND I like it that Innova DOESN'T put raised letters/numbers on the inner rim = irritating! :p

I like Lightning discs, hey Kevin have you tried calling them up yet???

raised letters/numbers on the inner rim = irritating!




Doc,

I've always liked the raised letters. It gives me that extra added gription when i feel it's needed! :p

Is that really saying much? you could probably throw a paper plate and do as well as you do now!



Hey i resemble that remark :mad:

Well atleast at Oxbow during the first round :eek: :p

I've always liked the raised letters. It gives me that extra added gription when i feel it's needed! :p

there's gotta be a salad tossing joke in there somewhere

Yes Chris I like Lightning discs also very comparable to Discraft. lol j/k

Pimp, I am just messing around like I said in my previous posts. No reason to take it so personal or get so defensive for your Discraft. Keep in mind I am not the only one that thinks Discraft is inconsistent. This is a Discraft thread, which would explain it. So I have nothing bad to say about Innova or Discraft. Both are good companies.

Josh

I've always liked the raised letters. It gives me that extra added gription when i feel it's needed! :p

there's gotta be a salad tossing joke in there somewhere




raised letters are like ribbed condoms, they give him traction in the mud.

Theres your salad tossing joke. :D

I am not attacking you im just saying that i think you're one of the few who thinks Discraft is inconsistent.

I could care less what anyone throws. McCoy from what i hear is now on the DARK SIDE but hes still a good guy and i wish him the best of luck. I like Discraft so thats what ill throw. You like Innova so thats what you throw. It really doesnt matter though untill either ones of us is a sponsored PRO :D

New thread idea? Who will be a sponsored pro first...

Pimp
or
Disc Golf?

LMFAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I dont even want to be a part of this one :p

New thread idea? Who will be a sponsored pro first...

Pimp
or
Disc Golf?



Just what this world needs: Another thread solely about CB_Disc_Pimp

I am not attacking you im just saying that i think you're one of the few who thinks Discraft is inconsistent.



Hmmm, Hey Pimp! I seem to remember quoting you not long ago where you were seeking a particular run/stamp/color of discraft disc due to it's unique flight properties. I also remember posting jokingly that you yourself found inconsistencies in the same company's plastic which you were promoting as being totally consistent. Perhaps in some instances, you find inconsistencies in discraft discs too? :eek: /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Hmmm, Hey Pimp! I seem to remember quoting you not long ago where you were seeking a particular run/stamp/color of discraft disc due to it's unique flight properties. I also remember posting jokingly that you yourself found inconsistencies in the same company's plastic which you were promoting as being totally consistent. Perhaps in some instances, you find inconsistencies in discraft discs too?



Man girlie why you gotta do that to me :eek: :mad:

Ok from color to color Discraft may be a little inconsistent but you learn that the same colors fly the same. So there is atleast a method to the madness. With Innova you have NO CLUE what you are getting untill you throw the disc.

Ok Ok maybe and i say MAYBE Discraft has some inconsistencies as well but IMO its not nearly as much as Innova and i still think Discraft makes better discs and they work better for me so i will keep throwing and promoting them :D

Hey guys watch out for girlie she will bring stuff up from MONTHS ago just to try and make you look stupid. :D

Plus shes not afraid to jump in the ring and sling some mud with the big boyz.

girlie you know i aint got nothing but love your ya girl ;)

Just what this world needs: Another thread solely about CB_Disc_Pimp



<font size=5> LMFAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!</font>

Thats exactly why i dont want to be a part of that thread. Although i would like to know what people think :D

think she is just keeping you in line. making sure your not flip flopping!

Hey Kev I am curently waiting for my pink slip. I feel like the Scarecrow about my game the last 5 years, If only I had a brain..........

New thread idea? Who will be a sponsored pro first...

Pimp
or
Disc Golf?



Erick,

That's too funny!! I liked that. lol

I don't think that anyone is saying that any company is disproportionately inconsistent. I (and I think others) have been commenting on the relative inconsistancy amongst the companies. My point was that while Discraft may be different from red to blue discs, like someone jokingly pointed out, a roc is apparently affected by which city it is made in.

It all depends on how hard you hit the tree.

McCoy from what i hear is now on the DARK SIDE



Does that mean what I think it means?

yep

a roc is apparently affected by which city it is made in.



The city stamped on the bottom of the roc is an indicator as to which mold was used to form the discs - the mold was changed over time and the city stamp is a great identifier. I'm not saying that an ontario and a rancho will fly the same, but at least you know that by looking at the bottom of the disc. ;)

And that is something intentional. That has nothing to do with consistancy.

Robbie - you will have to take that BUZZ you have come to love out of your bag Still want the Sentinel? :D



Heh...notice that I chose my words carefully (if even just this once), Adam. I said that I would not "buy" anymore Discraft products. I didn't say I would quit throwing the ones I might already have in my possession! :D

I went out this weekend and threw two rounds at Zilker with only a Champion Spider. Thankfully I still own 7 new or nearly new Z-Buzzs. Because the Spider just don't cut it for me in the mid-range category. Likewise, I spent an afternoon trying to break in a couple of new putters (Aviar and Champion Aero). Thankfully, I also have about 10 of my favorite APX Swirls to tide me over for a long while.

I bet you didn't go to Long John Silvers after the round :D I read your website today

Hmmm, Hey Pimp! I seem to remember quoting you not long ago where you were seeking a particular run/stamp/color of discraft disc due to it's unique flight properties. I also remember posting jokingly that you yourself found inconsistencies in the same company's plastic which you were promoting as being totally consistent. Perhaps in some instances, you find inconsistencies in discraft discs too?



Man girlie why you gotta do that to me :eek: :mad:

Ok from color to color Discraft may be a little inconsistent but you learn that the same colors fly the same. So there is atleast a method to the madness. With Innova you have NO CLUE what you are getting untill you throw the disc.

Ok Ok maybe and i say MAYBE Discraft has some inconsistencies as well but IMO its not nearly as much as Innova and i still think Discraft makes better discs and they work better for me so i will keep throwing and promoting them :D

Hey guys watch out for girlie she will bring stuff up from MONTHS ago just to try and make you look stupid. :D

Plus shes not afraid to jump in the ring and sling some mud with the big boyz.

girlie you know i aint got nothing but love your ya girl ;)


Maybe I should keep this blue 172g Tsunami if all Discraft/DGA disc are the same, or maybe Millz would like it.

a roc is apparently affected by which city it is made in.



The city stamped on the bottom of the roc is an indicator as to which mold was used to form the discs - the mold was changed over time and the city stamp is a great identifier.



You miss the part where he said "like someone jokingly pointed out..."?

Maybe I should keep this blue 172g Tsunami if all Discraft/DGA disc are the same, or maybe Millz would like it.



I WANT IT I WANT IT I WANT IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The reason i want it though is cuz its Z plastic not Fusion plastic which makes it more stable :D

I thought so!!!

so Kev, are you still gonna throw all discraft?




Well behind the scenes I have been in talks with SOLO CUP (http://www.solocup.com/consumer/SoloGrips/SoloGripsPublic.html) , yeah the company that makes plastic cups and I have decided to see how many people I can beat with plastic picnic cups. :D



So Nina's the dude who threw the cup at Artest...Nina was it for his weak rhymes? :D

you miss the part where he said "like someone jokingly pointed out..."?



let's see...


My point was that while Discraft may be different from red to blue discs, like someone jokingly pointed out, a roc is apparently affected by which city it is made in.




The 'jokingly pointed out' comment seems in this sentence to refer to the red/blue discraft differences in flights of same mold discs. I didn't think that the Treeklunker had a true understanding of the different city stamps on ROCs and the differences in the molds which created those discs.

But, perhaps I mis-read that one. ;)

Team ROC :cool:

you miss the part where he said "like someone jokingly pointed out..."?



let's see...


My point was that while Discraft may be different from red to blue discs, like someone jokingly pointed out, a roc is apparently affected by which city it is made in.




The 'jokingly pointed out' comment seems in this sentence to refer to the red/blue discraft differences in flights of same mold discs. I didn't think that the Treeklunker had a true understanding of the different city stamps on ROCs and the differences in the molds which created those discs.

But, perhaps I mis-read that one. ;)

Team ROC :cool:



Sorry Girlie, but I meant the joke towards the Roc. While I understand they are minor variations and that its just where the mold originated, I just think its funny to hear people argue that they hate one Roc but love another. A rock is a rock, unless of course its a roc. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Yo Kev you crazy freak, it's Mitch down here in innova saturated NC...Wish you all the best buddy and try not to get Sars. You're a nut and never, ever change. Best wishes to you with Innova.

Only thing I can add is iv'e played a round with Ron Russell & Cam todd & both were great experiences
As far as Kevin Iv'e got a great story out of Toledo, O.H
last year! So I can only say all 3 have good reps in my opinion

^^ sweet avatar dude LOL

that had better be tobacco. :D

I was on the Innova site today. On the top of the home page is a message that Kevin McCoy has joined Team Innova. Didn't think it would take long. Congratulations Kevin!

Congrats Kevin!! Way to join a winning team!!!

CONGRATS!!!!! I am glad to see more innova members playing in TX! :DSee you at BIG SHOW !

Good luck McCoy,
By the looks of that biography of yours on the Innova website, you should fit right in. I recommend the ORC to go along with your ROC's. If you think about it, they're the same, just rearranged with the ORC obviously a bigger hitter. But you are the pro, you'll figure it out. Go INNOVA!

wow that was fast, congrats Kevin!! do I hear more Innova sweeps in the near future?? :D

Congrats Kevin!! Way to join a winning team!!!



As opposed to a 'losing team'? Last time I checked, being sponsored by any of the '3 major manufacturers' was a pretty big accomplishment. I didn't know there were winners and losers.

Congrats Kevin!! Way to join a winning team!!!



As opposed to a 'losing team'? Last time I checked, being sponsored by any of the '3 major manufacturers' was a pretty big accomplishment. I didn't know there were winners and losers.



OK, I might as well open up the whole can and ask. Terry, you mention the three major manufactures. I got Innova and Discraft, but who is the third? Millennium, DGA, Gateway, Whamo, Discwing? :eek: Sorry, just couldn't help myself! :D

All three of them have some impressive products, players and promoters. My personal fav from each manufacture.

Barry Schultz/Des Reading Innova Champion sorry can't pick just one
Tim Gill Discraft
George Smith Gateway

I have had the pleasure of playing multiple rounds with each of these players. Awesome golfers and disc golf advocates. No losers here!

Well Clark,

Thanks for the interest in the clarification. I guess I'm not looking to get into it with anyone as to who are the 3 major manufacturers. When I made that remark I was thinking of disc manufacturers. I was thinking in terms of Discraft, Innova, and Gateway. Those are all companies that have 'sponsored' players on their team. Yes, DGA, Wham-O and others are all major manufacturers of various things including discs.

My REAL POINT to the thread was the fact that I didn't know there was a 'winning' or 'losing' team. I think being on any given sponsored team is a winning team.

Millennieum has sponsored players are they not considered a major manufacture? Just curious.

hear hear.
I am a sponsored player with Millennium and I can not cash at a event and still feel like I am winning.

AGAIN, my point isn't about the actual count of sponsors or manafucatures or sponsored players. My real comment pertains to which are or are not 'winning teams'.

I guess if you go by the amount of wins a certain manufacture has then Innova has to be considered the winingest team out there, hence a winning team.

I guess if you go by the amount of wins a certain manufacture has then Innova has to be considered the winingest team out there, hence a winning team.



They also have HUGE headstart compared to other companies....they have been around for quite a long time.

And they have the best players. Numbers dont lie.

AGAIN, my point isn't about the actual count of sponsors or manafucatures or sponsored players. My real comment pertains to which are or are not 'winning teams'.


You've asked this questions a couple times Terry, I guess you're looking for an answer. Well the answer is Innova is a "winning" team and discraft is a "losing" team :D I wasn't going to say it but you asked one too many times!

And they have the best players. Numbers dont lie.



That may be due to their requirements to be on the team. Easy to have a much higher average when the requirements to be on the team are much higher.

They also have HUGE headstart compared to other companies....they have been around for quite a long time.



This is true.

Discraft has been around since 1979 according to their website. www.discraft.com (http://www.discraft.com)

Innova has been "lowering scores since 1983" according to their slogan.

I'd like to know when some of the other companies were established.

I think Lightning has been around for a long time.

Does it hurt to think? :D

The intent of my post was not to debate winners vs. losers or even manufacture vs. manufacture. It was actually an attempt to drift on the thread and get away from all of the this is better than that $&!#@ that consumes most of the board. What you throw is personal preference and comfort. Each manufacture has a good number of disc golf promoters and advocates. This is where the focus should be in our sport and not arguing about who's plastic is better. I agree with your assessment of no losers.....and that Chris is a complete tool. :D

OK, now that we are way of thread......congrats Kevin and good luck with your new sponsor! Sorry that your paper/plastic plate deal didn't work out.

There are plenty of threads to debate this issue in the Equipment thread. This thread is for debating if Kevin McCoy is the best representative of any company. :D

McCoy is a good guy and i wish him luck with his new sponsor. With that being said.

If your good your good it doesnt matter what you throw. Innova and Gateway and Discraft ALL and yes i just said ALL make great products. Innova makes Firebirds and Orcs and Rocs and Eagles and Rhynos and Aviars. Discraft makes Predators Wasps BUZZZs Challengers Flicks Crushes Flashes Wildcats. Gateway makes Spirits and Elements and Wizards and Illusions and Sabres and Demons and Speed Demons. ALL are good discs and could be used in any competition by any SKILLED player. Its all about what you LIKE and feel CONFIDENT throwing. If Discraft stopped making disc right now and all my stash ran out i could switch to Innova or Gateway and play the same game i play now. Sure it would take some times to learn the new discs but if your a skilled player you can play with ANYTHING.

What you throw doesnt make you a good player or a bad player. The amount of skill you have does.

I_AM_THE_DISC_PIMP and i choose to throw Discraft because i like their discs, I feel confident throwing them and i like thier customer and player relations. :D

I'd like to know when some of the other companies were established.



I think David started molding discs (Gateway) in 1999 or so. They made bags before that I think.

Ah yes, the FORCE is strong with this one. Join me and we shall destroy the Empire and rule the universe as father and son. Sorry, I could'nt help it.
Kevin McCoy, the FORCE is strong with you.
Welcome my fellow scottsman.

Blah, Blah, Blah Mad Dog............ :D

Happy Holidays to you and yours!

What up Schick?
Happy holidays to you and yours the same bruthah.

....and it's Mad Dawg, not Mad Dog, I'm a southern boy. :cool:

Getting sponsored is winning Terry! It is a great accomplishment. I know I have said congrats to you in person a few times for getting sponsored by Discraft. I meant by "winning" was Innova has dominated in the winning market in this sport. Nobody can deny that.

Hamm,

Thanks for clearing that all up. I will just have to work harder and maybe someday I will part of a 'winning team'. Now that the wins have been pointed out by the Innova team members such as Heeren, I guess I AM in fact a real loser.

Maybe my company will start to sponsor people and when it does, it will be a group of 'winners'. They might not win events but they will be 'winners' off the course. Now THERE is a concept. Do I hear any potential nutswingers for that group? I promise they won't kiss other sponsored players' [*****]e$ and I promise they won't play unsanctioned events in lower divisions and I promise they won't complain about things like what their player ratings are.

You don't want to put the Mad back 'n Crackin!

Give me a call Crackin.

The first step has been taken to your recovery Terry. Since you have gone back to playing in events instead of riding your motorcycle in hail storms you've gotten on a team and I am sure your confidence has gone up. :D

Good point Mace. I will however probably be backing down from my 35+ events (sanctioned and non) a year situation. I am opening a pro shop in the next few months and I'm sure that will consume plenty of my time.

I figured out the other day that I have missed 3 WI Tour events in the past 5 or 6 years. No other person has 'supported' the tour more than myself in those past 40 or so events. I have missed 2 years of the MCO and 1 year of Baraboo. Not a bad attendance record.

Anyway, we need you to stop back up in WI! When is your next visit?

Cmon Gracey May, lets you and me head on up to Milwaukee for the real Ice Bowl. I'm sure K Raff or the Schulzinator would put us up southern style.

put us up southern style.


What's southern style? You mean in a trailer? ;)

No, it means at the expense of the gov'mint. ;)

No, it means at the expense of the gov'mint. ;)


/msgboard/images/graemlins/ooo.gif That's what that means. I'm sure they do that down in Milwaukee and if not there then try Madison. Wisconsin isn't the 3rd highest taxed state in the US for nothing.

I was being sincere Terry why do you have to be sarcastic about everything? You always have to ruin it. Oh wait that is your nature. I honestly think it's great you are sponsored by Discraft. You absolutely do the most for Disc Golf for Wisconsin; that is a fact!! So regardless of how much of a sarcastic moron you are at times; we still appreciate all you do for Wisconsin and disc golf. That�s the truth.

Let's just try to be nice to all disc golfers Terry. That is truly what a sponsored player should be doing. Honestly Terry you can be a great guy. I wish you and I would just stop this pointless waste of time bashing each other. So I am over it now. I will do my part and try to be more respectful to you. The ball is in your court. I am hoping to see a respectful Discraft Sponsored Team Player. We will see.

Hamm

You Sconsin boys sure know how to make me feel at home every time I visit. If K Raff and Schulzy had a trailer to lend me, I would gladly take it at the Governments expense or not.
Don't make me come up there and go Mad Cracken on you Jay.

My dear friend Hamm,

I don't know why you got so defensive, hehe. I'm just joking. Hehe. Some people such as my good friend, John Knudson, asked me the other day if you were employed by or sponsored by Innova. He was shocked to see that was not in fact the case since you are so Anti-Discraft and Pro-Innova.

So I decided to do a little research and came up with 5 pages of your posts where you either hint, imply, or lead someone to possibly think you are 1) The owner of Innova, 2) Innova's number one team captain or cheerleader, 3) A top rated player who exclusively throws Innova, or 4) someone that loves to nutswing exclusively on Innova players/employees.

So with all of that being said, I was simply clearing things up. Are you saying you are not looking for 'conflict' or 'drama' when you openly bash ANY given product OVER and OVER again? This is not a disc vs disc discussion. This is just a simple response to why you view so many of my posts as 'cocky' or whatever.

I do have better things to do with my time than to read this board. Heck, reading things like how you throw starfires 350 to 375 without warmup and over 450 make me question ALL integrity of this board. However, besides the lame manufacturer vs manufacturer bantor on this board it can actually be somewhat informative. Heck, you seem to know so much that you can tell Kev McCoy which discs to use. You even tell Innova which players they should pick up next. I mean come on. This board is so useful because without you on here sharing your wisdom, people would be lost! I know Innova would be! Hehe

Ps - You 'hehe' quote after everything does NOT excuse the fact that you said it. You seem to go off and rip on people (myself included) and then always come back with a 'just kidding' or 'hehe' and think that justifies it.

For anyone that wants to review some of Hamm's best posts - I have put them here for you to view.

A Fraction of Hamm's Posts (http://www.prodiscgolfer.com/hamm.pdf)

Uh oh . . . sounds like somebody ****** Terry off. Josh, you better watch your back, Terry might slip some discraft into your bag while you're putting.


reading things like how you throw starfires 350 to 375 without warmup and over 450 make me question ALL integrity of this board.


As for you Terry, I would not question ANYTHING on this board. 100% of the things being said on here are true!!

"A Fraction of Hamm's Posts " Wow, what are you smoking Terry?? Since when is it a crime to congradulate someone on getting sponsored or winning a tournament over a world champ??? I hope you had fun looking up all his posts, cause to me it looks like a big waste of time. There's nothing wrong with liking one brand of disc over another . . . . look at pimp and all the $&*# he talks about discraft.
P.S. this is a good quote lol "Yes Chris I like lightning discs also very comparable to Discraft." :)

Hurry up all you nutswingers...get on board and back up whatever Heeren just posted. Then go out and jerk off to the newest player ratings after you have complained for so long that they aren't up yet. Hurry, hurry.

You're pretty silly Terry; we all see you have way to much time on your hands. You can never take constructive criticism. Funny thing, I praised you on how hard you work for Disc Golf in Wisconsin and I get kicked in the head. Very simple Terry you need to stop being so negative and get off the high horse that you think you're on. I hope you can work on that. Later man.

Side Note:

And for the record I never actually say in words I was sponsored or owned Innova; but I will back them up 100% for there fine product and there team values!!

I'm done and over this. Best of luck to all of you that read this board.

Wow. After reading the Josh, Chris, and Terry banter, would it be safe to say that all the cheese in WI. has spoiled? It's not safe to eat spoiled dairy products! :DSilly Cheese heads, I hope you guys can kiss and make up. :confused:

Don't make me come up there and go Mad Cracken on you Jay.


Relax, I was just having some Friday afternoon fun. :DUs Sconsin boys would welcome almost anyone (no Bears fans) up here and put them up for a night or two. Too cold for trailers here but you're welcome to grab some floor space in our log cabins. ;)

10-4. I was just having some fun the same. Thanks for the hospitality :cool:.

And people think I freak out on here.

Are you saying that I freaked out somehow? :confused:

It is pretty funny that the most vocal brand-loyalists are ~920 rated players.

It is pretty funny that the most vocal brand-loyalists are ~920 rated players.



Thats ok because i would haser to guess that i talk and play with more newbies then ANY of the sponsored pros. I would also haser to guess that i get more new players to try more Discraft disc then some if not all sponsored players do :eek:

Oh and once they get this rating up i wont be 920 anymore. Look for me next year though ;) Ill be up and coming :D

Don't you mean "hyzer to guess." ;)

Pimple, I'm trying to figure out what you are attemption to say :confused:. Here's what I came up with.



Definition: Hazer is a term used in the steer wrestling. A hazer is a mounted cowboy who rides along the right hand side of the steer keeping it running in a straight line. This makes the steer wrestlers job easier when jumping from his horse.





haze [ hayz ] (past hazed, past participle hazed, present participle haz�ing, 3rd person present singular haz�es)


transitive and intransitive verb

persecute or torture: to persecute or torture somebody in a subordinate position, for example, a fraternity pledge or a first-year military academy cadet. Hazing may be illegal, and many institutions have prohibited it.


[Late 17th century. Origin uncertain: perhaps from obsolete French haser �to tease, annoy,� ultimately of unknown origin. First attested in English as a dialect verb meaning �to frighten, scold.�]


haz�er noun
haz�ing noun





Haze Machine (Hazer) A device, similar to a fog machine, which produces a light, fine atmosphere by atomizing a special haze fluid. Since a haze machine does not utilize a heat exchange system, like a fogger, there is no warm up time. The atmosphere produced by a haze machine is dense enough to reveal beams of light in the air, but not so dense as to become opaque.



I'm almost willing to wager, that you didn't mean "hazer". /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Pimping aside :p, Most ppl who frequent this board are sub 920 so that might explain why our responses are most prevalent.

Love that avatar jimg........I need to get one for my car.....these texans would love that!!!

www.evolvefish.com (http://www.evolvefish.com)

It is pretty funny that the most vocal brand-loyalists are ~920 rated players.



Thats ok because i would haser to guess that i talk and play with more newbies then ANY of the sponsored pros. I would also haser to guess that i get more new players to try more Discraft disc then some if not all sponsored players do :eek:

Oh and once they get this rating up i wont be 920 anymore. Look for me next year though ;) Ill be up and coming :D



i would HAZARD a guess that you meant hyzer :D

Discraft I would appreciate it very very very much if you all would make a HUGE batch of BLACK MAGNETS.Thank You Very Much, I hope someone from discraft reads this :(