I have a beat up 171g Roc, I imagine it's DX plastic due to how beat it is, but I can't be sure because it doesn't say and I bought it used. Right now this seems to be the perfect disc for me in many respects; I can control it well, throw it flat, hyzer, high anhyzer, s-curve, and even get decent distance, and it never does anything unexpected. There is a problem though, it is not comfortable in my hand. This could be partly due to how beat it is, but it's also due to the depth of the rim and the rim's edge, especially when throwing sidearm. I also think a new Roc might be too overstable for me. I currently throw a Comet, which is great except it's so low speed neutral, it never fades at the end, just goes where it's headed. I also need a disc that fades at the end, Is there any disc out there that flies more like a worn in Roc, but feels more comfortable, with a shallower rim, and more comfortable edge? I'm not against other Roc varieties/plastics; really just looking for any recommendations.

So to recap:
1) Long-mid range disc.
2) Not too overstable, even stable or understable. Like a beat up Roc.
3) Some low speed fade.
4) Comfortable rim for backhand and sidearm.

thanks!

Try a Buzzz.

Z-plastic if you are looking for durability, X-plastic if you want super grippy plastic, D-plastic if you like the harder stuff that wears in.

An Aurora MS is nice and straight with a bit of low speed fade.

Try a Buzzz.

Z-plastic if you are looking for durability, X-plastic if you want super grippy plastic, D-plastic if you like the harder stuff that wears in.



<font size=4>I SECOND THAT :D</font>

I have 3 soon to be 4 BUZZZs in my bag.

I 178 Z BUZZZ for Straight shots thrown HARD
174 Z BUZZZ pretty beat up for straight shots when thrown soft and Turnovers when thrown HARD
177+ Beat D Buzz for Turnovers when thrown Soft and Flip Shots when thrown HARD

Soon to be a NEW 177+ D BUZZZ for Straight shots thrown Firm and Turnovers thrown Hard. Also trying to get this to be my back up for the flippy one if it ever gets too beat to throw :D

Plus i have a Z Wasp for Overstable shots inside 350.
All the discs i just mentioned are for shots from 250-350ft

Thrown HARD = Full strength shot
Thrown Soft = Finesse Shots about Half Speed
Thrown Firm = Somewhere inbetween the first two

As far as the beatness being uncomfortable, if its all chunked up you can take fine sandpaper or a green scrubbie to it (industrial strength pot scrubber, my personal pref because it doesnt take off as much plastic)

As far as a new disc that wil fly like a beat Roc there are a few out there like that. You could get another beat Roc, Champion Cobra, a Buzz like My_Hero suggested, or Gateway Element in any plastic. The Cobra is a little thinner than a Roc but has a similar edge. The Element's edge is a flatish bevel (no "scoop" on the lower rim like a Roc, Cobra, or Buzz). If it was me, I'd just get another Roc since that's what you are already used to, but that's just me. Hope it helps.

Just to clarify, when I said "decent distance", for me that means low 200s. :o

So the Buzz would still not be too overstable?
Can you throw s-curves with an Aurora MS, or does it hold it's line like a Comet?

Element sounds promising since it doesn't have that "scoop".

What about an MRV? Or a Storm?

I'd say either a Gateway Element or an Aurora MS. Depending how you throw, you might get more fade with a Buzzz, but it may be TOO much for you based on what you said.

I don't throw with a lot of arm speed or snap. :D

Right now I have 3 Rocs, an Element, and a Champion Cobra in my bag. I have thrown a first run Z Buzz also and all had about the same D for me. They are all fairly comparable discs as far as D goes so that shouldn't be too much of an issue. Maybe the best thing you could do is find a friend at the course that has one or more of these you could try and see what they feel like in your hand instead of going out and spending a bunch of money on discs you may not like.

Out of the ones I listed the Buzz would probably be the most overstable but I have only thrown one in Z plastic. I think X or D plastic would be less stable but I don't know for sure because I dont throw all that much Discraft. You said you throw sidearm I believe. I don't have a sidearm so I don't know if that would affect anything either.

It's been so long since I threw an Aurora That I couldn't even begin to tell you about that and I have never thrown a MRV or a Storm.

Just to clarify, when I said "decent distance", for me that means low 200s. :o

So the Buzz would still not be too overstable?
Can you throw s-curves with an Aurora MS, or does it hold it's line like a Comet?

Element sounds promising since it doesn't have that "scoop".

What about an MRV? Or a Storm?



MRV when thrown anhyzer will flex out, ie come back stable and fade. However once it is beat in, it will turn over no matter how you throw it.

Buzzz will hold any line you want when thrown hard. Although I would never say the buzzz is overstable, it will fade out at the end, but no where as much as a new Roc. I carry two buzzzes, one that is 7 months old and use it for turn overs and another new one that I rotate with a new KC Roc for straight shots.

It is unfortunate that Innova changes their molds year after year. A Roc should be a Roc should be a Roc, except of course different plastics. Here is how I would rate the stability of the 4 plastics from least to most overstable

KC
DX (although it beats up easier and hence will turnover faster)
Super
Champion

I have found that all Roc plastics will turnover for me even new.

But the best advice is to throw what you know and do not let anyone tell you what you throw is wrong. And if it does not feel good in your hand then you will not like throwing it. Try to find people with theses discs and ask to throw them a few times, most people will.

Easy. Element. Get one, they are great beat up Rocs right out of the bag. Little fade at the end and they do it all.

Trust me, I know Rocs. :)

Try a Spider, it is a smaller straighter Roc, might fit in your hand better.
Cheers,
Matt

I just grabbed my Roc out of my car, the problem is definitely the depth of the rim, combined with that edge. My Comet has similar rim depth, but I only throw it backhand, so it's not an issue. This Roc also seems pretty flat on top, quite strange. Can you identify a disc by it's patent number? This one is 4,568,297, the stamp on top just says "World Disc Games. Santa Cruz, CA. 2003". It sounds like any of these discs you all have recommended will do just fine, so I'll just have to go and see what feels the most comfortable in my hand. Thanks again.

All discs have that patent # no matter what disc or what company. That is except for protos. Most of them by any company have a blank underside. As far as the flat dome, that could be most any run of DX Rancho Rocs.

Tom only sold DX Rocs for the World Disc Games, so that's what it would be.

I would have to add my voice to the Z-Buzz advocates. Especially if your looking for something that has a shallower rim for the forhand. I throw mostly rocs for backhand aproach shots, but feel more comfortable with the Buzz for forehand shots. The pro-D will have the same and beat in similar to the DX plastic.

Bro, I would seriously consider throwing a Cobra (Dx or Champion, or both). The Roc isn't that comfortable for my hand either, but the Cobra is a perfect fit. And it flies exactly how you described the way you want your disc to fly. It also becomes a great roller once it's really beat up. I would at least give it a shot b/c I think it's just what you are looking for.

Well there ya go! I figured someone might have been to the SC World Games and have a clue about this disc.

My girlfriend throws a Cobra, I threw her old beater as a roller, I'll have to check out her new one when it stops raining.

Easy. Element. Get one, they are great beat up Rocs right out of the bag. Little fade at the end and they do it all.

Trust me, I know Rocs. :)



WOW...thats a great ringing endorsment!

Aurora MS (I find to be very similar to a beat roc)
Proline Classic Roc (DX might work too, but I hear the prolines are a touch more overstable)
DX Shark (roc without the bead)
Hydra (rim feels like a spider...and it floats!)
Breeze (Should come back if only thrown 200)
Spider
150 Z Storm (You should start with either this or the Aurora)
Cobra
Element


Those are 9 not terribly overstable mid-ranges that will give you a different rim feel than the roc. Any of those should work I would think. Most of the guys I play with that are a little short on power throw the classic rocs in either DX or Pro. I personally keep a champion classic roc in the bag (next to the new flat top roc, slightly beat flat top roc, beat to crud flat top roc, and z wasp) for floaty straight downhill shots.

Or, and this is off the wall, you might try an Aviar or Omega for your midranges. You get loads of float and it doesn't take too much to make them go straight. And for 200' shots they should come back. Heck my buddy aced this afternoon at the West Memphis course on a 220 foot hole with a big high hyzer with his Omega SS.

The Element is a fantastic disc! Sounds like it would fit the bill. I would get S or E plastic.

The Buzz is also a good suggestion but the Z might have too much fade.

I would say "E" Element. Or "S" if you like the "DX" type plastic....BTW Gateway "S" is usually considered better than DX.

And Shark=Beadless Roc? Not at all...the Shark has a completely different wing if I remember. Probably flies like a beadless Roc, but doesn't feel like one at all.

Omega SS... would that be the Omega SuperSoft putter that you're talking about? I actually use an XD for my putts and a lot of my approach shots, but for putting I've been missing my Blow Fly II that I lost in Tahoe, I like the soft plastic, but it could be too floppy for longer approaches. So I should check out this Omega SS.

As for the Element, it sounds like an awesome disc, I have an "S" Sabre, and I love the feel of that plastic; the disc doesn't do much for me at this point, though...

The Sabre is highly unrated, and takes a little while to perfect. But once you do, you can throw it 400'+ with little or no fade. No joke...the thing is awesome to see thrown right!

I have run into a similar problem. I use a lot of two-finger style, and the roc isn't very comfortable for that. I would suggest an MRV, because it's one of the few midrange discs that can take the spin of the two finger and not turn completly over. I have tried the buzz, the s element, and a bunch of dx rocs, but none of them seem to fly straight. I haven't thrown a spider, but i have a freind with a CFR one that seems like it would hold a good line, so you may want to check that out.

Chris

DiscinDeadhead:

From HERE (http://www.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?Board=Equipment&Number=133811&Searchpage=1&Main=42323&Search=true&#Post133811)



rasboomer, neither has been covered. If you take the bead off a Roc, it is essentially a Shark. I don't know if that answers your question, but it's the best I can do for now.

Don't overlook the Champ Panther.

I believe it's the speed of a sidearm coupled with 'less' spin...that turns a disc over.
I'm pretty new to the sidearm...but I've been mightily impressed with my Ching Roc=a slick flat-top Roc. It handles the above way better than I was expecting. Overall, for sidarm purposes, a CE Spider has proven (to me) to be the most dependable...and is longer than my other mids (for me). Though, a Spider has an even deeper lip than a Roc/Wasp, I believe.
.02

Probably because I've yet to beat up my own (Z or X) Buzzz enough...I'm having trouble seeing a Buzzz do what a beatup DX Roc does (RHBH)...the way it'll turn right after a lenghthy flight...right on cue. Is it just me?

Probably because I've yet to beat up my own (Z or X) Buzzz enough...I'm having trouble seeing a Buzzz do what a beatup DX Roc does (RHBH)...the way it'll turn right after a lenghthy flight...right on cue. Is it just me?



I would put my seasoned Buzzz up agianst any seasoned Roc any day. Buzzz just came out in Elite X plastic, but the Z plastic will not beat up like a DX roc. So it may not flip like a beat up dx disc.

But brand new a buzzz is just a reliable and multifunctional as a new roc. Well seasoned, it has just as a predictable turn as a seasoned roc. No one believes me that a buzzz is a good turnover midrange when seasoned. Then they watch me throw it hyzer and turn back right smooth as silk. But this buzzz is 7 months old and has hit many many trees at top speed.

Rocs and Buzzz's take up 16% of my 25 disc bag.

Know them, learn them, love them.

The only short coming of a buzzz to a roc is that the roc goes farther because of the different rim shapes.

Is yours an X or Z? I've found Buzzz'ez to fly farther than Rocs... :confused:

DiscinDeadhead:

From HERE (http://www.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?Board=Equipment&Number=133811&Searchpage=1&Main=42323&Search=true&#Post133811)



rasboomer, neither has been covered. If you take the bead off a Roc, it is essentially a Shark. I don't know if that answers your question, but it's the best I can do for now.





Brilliant Cdale . . . well done!

The Sabre is highly unrated, and takes a little while to perfect. But once you do, you can throw it 400'+ with little or no fade.



Seeing as I can't throw any disc over 250' it'll probably take me and extra long time to perfect that shot! :DSeriously though, I have pretty much abandonded all my drivers for now, I can't reliably throw them straight, so what's the point? Two accurate throws with a mid-range between 150' and 200' will get me within putting distance for most holes, and a chance for par.

I look forward to the day I can throw over 300', in fact, I woke up this morning with left over visions from a dream of good "snap" in my head; in my dream I was using my arm almost like a whip, and the disc was flattening from a ~45 degree hyzer and careening through the air, and I thought "that's it!". Then I opened my eyes and I looked outside and it was raining. :mad:

Didja see/feel your arm following through after that whip?


I'm closing in on 400'...we all can dream...can't we?! /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

I use a lot of two-finger style, and the roc isn't very comfortable for that. I would suggest an MRV, ... I have tried the buzz, the s element, and a bunch of dx rocs, but none of them seem to fly straight.



How far are you throwing?

Overall, for sidarm purposes, a CE Spider ... Though, a Spider has an even deeper lip than a Roc/Wasp, I believe.




I guess disc comfort is pretty relative to hand size/structure, etc. I have pretty wide hands, but with long thin fingers, so I really prefer a shallow, but wide rim (such discs are usually too overstable for me though) for sidearm. The deeper rims wind up bruising me in the notch between my thumb and forefinger.

So what is a "bead" anyway?

Didja see/feel your arm following through after that whip?
'm closing in on 400'...we all can dream...can't we?! /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif



Yes I did, in fact! Several weeks ago I was torquing and turning over discs with a hyzer release due to a bad follow-through, so I worked on that even though my snap still sucks. Now I can get nice gradual left turns, and even flatten my 150 teebird.

Baby steps...

Dreaming is nice, playing is nicer. Stupid rain!

Both my Buzzz's are Z. I try to refrain from DX or X plastic because (speed of my throw + hard wood trees = warped discs). I tried a really nice custom stamped vulcan roc (dx) and I gripped-locked it. It flew right into a tree about 75ft away and the top warped. Looked like a sine wave.

Most players from here seem to agree that the roc is farther then the buzzz. I think because the buzzz rim is more rounded that it is less areodynamic, but I only studied physics for one and half year, never got the BS in it.

But it is amazing how different discs react for different people. Manufacturers ratings never help either. Discraft states that their Z Wasp and Z MRV have the same stability rating. If you have ever thrown both you will know that this is hogwash.

"Know what you throw, throw what you know."

IMO, NOTHING beats up like a DX roc. Yeah you can warp it if you hit the first tree in the fairway but thats why I throw my newer rocs on more open holes where I dont usually have a chance of hitting a tree early and the disc is still flying fairly fast.

And if you want a more shallow rim and arent throwing far, Id suggest the classic roc or the cobra. Depends on what shot you are looking for I guess....

DiscinDeadhead:

From HERE (http://www.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?Board=Equipment&Number=133811&Searchpage=1&Main=42323&Search=true&#Post133811)



rasboomer, neither has been covered. If you take the bead off a Roc, it is essentially a Shark. I don't know if that answers your question, but it's the best I can do for now.





OK, I just remembered a different wing. My bad.

Ain't no thing.

At any rate to summarize my suggestions:
I've seen most beginners have great luck with sharks.
I've seen lower powered good players have great luck with classic rocs.
Aurora MS flies very similar to beat roc.
150 Z Storm is a lot of float / distance for not too much power.

Have fun trying some new discs!

So what is a "bead" anyway?



a BEAD is an elevated ring of plastic on the bottom of a disc. Discs without a bead feel smooth when you feel the profile. Discs with a bead will have a little bump, usually at the very bottom of the rim.

The Aviar Putt & Approach has no bead while the JK Aviar has a big bead.

a BEAD is an elevated ring of plastic on the bottom of a disc. Discs without a bead feel smooth when you feel the profile. Discs with a bead will have a little bump, usually at the very bottom of the rim.



more annoying questions... what is the aerodynamic effect of a bead? does it affect stability? glide? speed? just curious.

It adds stability.
Smal bead Aviar=slightly flippy, Big Bead=considerably more stable.
Wasp=stable to overstable midrange, Buzz(beadless Wasp)=less stable Wasp.
I'm sure there are plenty of other examples with disc that just added or removed a bead to make a more or less stable version of a pre-existing disc but I couldn't think of any off the top of my head.

Old Ching Tanks are just badless Ryhnos.
And if I rememer right, the Gremlin is just a Panther with a bead. And on a related note, a Wolf is just a Cobra with a Thumbtrack and the old Puma was just a Spider with the Thumtrack. Probably more of those, just don't know.

If I remember correctly, a Wolf has a much flatter wing and a pointier edge than a Cobra.

Could be, I was just going off something I read somewhere.