Please explain your thoughts

We have had that problem here in GA recently. When Ams are offered cash as "bait" to come to a tournament, it makes the other sanctioned events look less appealing because they can't play for cash.
The guy here then said something along the lines that he was all for what was best for disc golf... Yeah, but at what cost? :mad:

Lots of votes, but few comments.

This issue will be coming up at our next club meeting, and I'd like to hear reasons (for both sides).

Only if: (a) it's a all-comers, one division only tournament; or (b) they play up. (Side games excepted.)

Lots of votes, but few comments.

This issue will be coming up at our next club meeting, and I'd like to hear reasons (for both sides).



Its a "Two-Sided Sword".....

In an environment where you are trying to encourge tournament play, Ive found that a cash payout ALWAYS works best.
On the other hand in an ESTABLISHED tournament environment where most players are already exposed to the "Merch Payout system" then It doesnt pose a problem, It is always a good way for a Local club to raise funds (by using Club Plastic as Payout etc..)

definately a lot more appealing than plastic. am's win cash all the time in minis etc.

I think its sweet when us AMs get to play for cash, not all ams will turn pro and be able to reagularly compete for cash, i dont think it would really have that much of an affect towards sanctioned events either. alot of ams that i play with usually go to the sanctioned events over non-san, events with cash as it is for either a chance for a spot in am nationals or just for points and a rating. since we're on the topic, Midland Michigan is having a cash payout tourny on Nov 7th for all who are interested, top 6 get paid, we'll have free beer, liquor, and food, starting around 10am, for more info shoot me a pm.

I don't have a lot of tourney experience, but I figure that it can't hurt to offer cash. I think that once someone has felt the tourney vibe, they will be a lot more into competitive disc golf just for the competition, but cash will probably draw more attention than plastic for players who haven't really thought about turning it up a notch from casual play.

Non-sanctioned club events I play in the Pro division. Makes more sense than baggin the Adv division even if I do just 'donate' in most cases. Cash for AMs cant be bad.

i know i would personally play a WHOLE LOT more tournaments if i was playing for cash instead of discs i'm very unlikely to throw.

I KNOW Chris Heeren would be there! He recently played in an un-sanctioned event and played in the ADVANCED division! Sweet. Check out the Schultz VS Heeren thread!

Also, I think it's a bad idea. Ams already have this notion that they should be making a living off this sport and they are AMS! Heck, pros barely make a living off this sport. Plus - how would this deter sandbagging? IT WOULDN'T. Ok, more on this later.

What incentive is there for an organizer to payout 100% in cash in an unsanctioned event to all divisions ?

What incentive is there for an organizer to payout 100% in cash in an unsanctioned event to all divisions ?



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;)

We ran an event here in Osky back in February where we paid ams cash. We paid 100% to pros and 67% to ams and the remaining 33% we kept for the club. The response was great and we raised a nice chunk of change for the club.

I believe the answer to the question is "yes, but no" I believe that an AM can take home cash in an unsanctioned event, but will have to play in the Pro division. Otherwise what is the point in having divisions. I have yet to know of a tournament in our area where an AM plyer has received any cash as a prize, outside of weekly league, or doubles play, but those have no distinction of divisions. And if you go by the definition, a "Pro" - Performed by persons receiving pay, while an "Am" - An athlete who has never accepted money, or who accepts money under restrictions specified by a regulatory body, for participating in a competition. I am sure that this has just clouded the issue a whole lot more. :confused:

I think it bears pointing out, that One of the main reasons people play in different divisions depending on whether an event is sanctioned or not, is to get an invite to "Worlds".

What incentive is there for an organizer to payout 100% in cash in an unsanctioned event to all divisions ?


Then dont pay 100%. Pay like 80%. Keep the extra for the club or something.

WHO DOESN'T LIKE CASH.... WHAT WOULD YOU RATHER WIN, $8 OR A DX DISC?? SEEMS LIKE A NO BRAINER TO ME. THATS WHY DOUBLES IS SO POPULAR. I HAVE A NON SANTIONED MATCH PLAY TOURNAMENT EVERY YEAR AND PAY OUT CASH FOR AMS AND PROS. I HAD DISCS FOR SALE AND OTHER MERCHANDISE...I PAID OUT 16 DIFF. SPOTS AND NO-BODY USED THEIR MONEY TO BUY DISCS.
my 2 cents worth

Entry fee + hotel + food + gas + travel time = AM's want cash not plastic. The cost for plastic at tournaments is marked up. If you take cash you can get a better deal for plastic else-where.

AM/REC. is for fun not for money. As long the AM/REC. cash payout doesn't attract the IRS, I don't see a big problem paying cash. Cap it at $50.

If you want serious money, work hard to improve your game and go pro.

I am a rec. player btw.

If they pay ams cash, then I'll move back down to am

If they pay them then they, by definition, aren't playing in an amateur division. It's just an easier pro division. I don't see a problem with non-sanctioned tournaments having easier pro divisions than PDGA scantioned tournaments. If enough good players enter those tournaments, then it will just be PDGA Pro Open level players winning money anyway.

I see no problem with small, non sanctioned tournaments paying cash for prizes. The only way a person with a low level of play (compared to Pro Open players) can win any money at a tournament is if only really crappy or new players enter and they probably won't be attending too many PDGA scantioned tournaments anyway.

I say stop paying Ams plastic. Give them trophies/plaques, their cooler anyway and you can brag about them. Keep the cash to pros. I try to avoid unsanctioned events because they don't use all PDGA rules of play. It is very distracting playing with an 8yr old Junior and a Am Master woman. As a MA1 player who is striving to attain the professional level, I like to compete with people of my own level, if you want to experience what I am talking about, come down to a Southern Nationals event and play a round with the juniors. (which I support the juniors, and think it is great that they play, but competing with them is another story, and I am sure they do not like playing with advanced players either).

But if you want to play tournaments for cash, enter the open division. Or else just make side bets.

Here's a suggestion. All ams enter the event to play for "trophy only". With that comes a lesser entry fee. Then all the ams that want to play for cash, set up their own side pool with the money they saved in entries and split accordingly after the event. The TD doesn't know about it and if you want to call youself an am and play for money, it will not interfere with the event.

I am not endorsing this action, merely making a suggestion.

I like this idea a lot. Any drawbacks?

The only one I can think of is players that are left out of the side action either intentionally, or because they weren't aware of it.

The person running the side game would have to sit up at the Reg table and ask everyone if they wanted to get into it.

Shhhhhhh Dont tell Bruce Brakel but i am running one of this SIDE games at our Tag Finals this weekend since it is trophy only and MI has some stupid gambling laws or something. Ill let you guys know how it works out.

Having merch involved either in player packs and/or prizes is an important economic engine that fuels our sport. Forget about the wholesale/retail differential funding pro purses. Even without giving an extra penny to the pro purse, the differential helps support tournament expenses. Although there will always be TDs willing to eat these expenses or get enough sponsor cash/merch to cover it, more and more professional TDs and clubs are using what's generated from the differential to cover these costs plus make some money for their time, reward volunteers with merch or meals, and add money to club coffers for baskets.

....and course maintenance and new courses.

I say stop paying Ams plastic. Give them trophies/plaques, their cooler anyway and you can brag about them.



As an amateur who has no intent of playing pro I agree that I'd rather win a trophy than a disc, even if the cash value of the trophy is much less than the disc (i.e. crappy little trophies are fine with me). I'm in the position where I just buy any disc I want to throw anyway, so winning a disc I probably don't want isn't much of a prize to me.

However, I don't see why the PDGA should have a monopoly on pro disc golf events. If someone else wants to put on a pro event (one that pays cash as a prize) they should feel free to do that. If it takes away donors from PDGA events then the tournament directors that want those donors to come to their events should find a way to get them there.

What he said only more.

The captive audience nature of Am payouts is a large part of what allows disc manufacturers to sponsor events and players.

Entry fees are converted into disc sales (as payout). How many times would you have spent your entry fee buying plastic if entry fees were lowered and you only got trophies?

Once you cut into this number, not only are you cutting profits from the host club, you are cutting profits from the disc manufacturers.

The entire competitive structure is built on the backs of Am Payouts. If those go away, so does all the money the sport currently uses to survive.

JMHO

Having merch involved either in player packs and/or prizes is an important economic engine that fuels our sport.



As a TD, I understand all that. What I was talking about when I started this topic was for local minis. We've had a request from some of our vocal ams to do a cash payout. In those cases, we're not relying on the markup to fund the pros, or even cover costs of the event because we're up-front about taking $1 off everyone's entry for the club. This more than covers expenses.

I'm opposed to giving cash to ams (during these minis) more on principle than any other reason, but I'm more also willing to listen to all sides of the issue. As it is, our local scene is very poor at travelling to events out of town. I'm afraid that if we start paying cash at minis, we'll not only decrease travelling, but we'll decrease our turnout at local PDGA and other "bigger" events that don't pay cash to Ams.

bring on the money!!!!! sell plastic!!!

Being in am i agree that not getting cash for some tournys is bogus, but it depends what tourn your entering. AMs should not cash for some events and only receive plastics, shirts, etc. But at other times i think there should be some events where a Am player will be able to cash. Kinda gives a taste what moving on to pro would be like...a little incentive to get better and step up your following rounds in following events.

I would stay away from paying Ams money at events of possible. Most succesful clubs develop a good portion of their revenue through am payouts.
Our club has been very successful in getting in new courses here in St Louis. We working on our 13th in the area.
The money used to pay for 5 - 18 hole courses and now for the pads comes from the profit from the AM pay outs.
Without this we would have a lot less courses.
I dont think there is anything wrong with ams starting a $5 side action pot, but it should'nt be part of the actual event.

If AM's are paided in plastic and they want cash, why wouldn't they sell the plastic they win at a later time and place?

Plastic = Some $

Or some places give out funny money to spend and the vendors, they could trade that for cash with some one

Holy Schnike! You may have stumbled onto something! :eek:

In my opinion, Ams should not get cash at any tourney. It incourages bagging.

Why should one move up to a harder more expensive & competitive division if they can win money at a cheapier & easier division?

I haven't read the whole thread so if somebody said or asked this already, I'm sorry.

if its a non-sanctioned event, then the PDGA has no business even thinking about it.

as far as personal opinions go, mine is if someone wants to run an event and pay cash regardless of division, then hey go for it. i'm not sure why they would because it would seem that any profit motive would disappear - and its not all that big anyway.

besides, what's an "event"? something "organized"? whats "organized"? is it a few friends getting together to play a casual round - then deciding to all kick in $10 for a winner take all two-rounder? is it something announced ahead of time, with flyers?

there's prolly no way it can be defined, let alone regulated.

i'm wondering why so many folks who probably support free trade principles and would like to see less government intervention in their lives would like so much to keep ams from getting cash at non-pdga events. such attempts are at their root nothing other than market-manipulation, centralized-planning, price support for favored industries, and a host of other practices that we have all seen fail, usually to the detriment of all involved parties.