Lets hear everyones thoughts about the event.
My thoughts:
1. Courses were in great shape.
2. Weather never dissapoints at States.
3. Players that I played with were good guys and I hope to get to play with them again.
4. Payout was as bad as it gets. 30 rec.players @ $39 each (that doesn't count late fees) and the top player only won $35 payout. UGH. The TD's said the players package was valued at $30. The shirt they gave us they decided to retail that shirt at $15. I print shirts all the time and that shirt should have cost them $4 or less. That is quite a markup. If you paid more than that I have some property I would like to sell you. I didn't seem that any sponsorships went to cover the cost of the players package. I understand a need to reach the minimum requirements from the PDGA for added pro-purse but shouldn't most of that come from Sponsorships and not out of the pockets of the players. That seems like the responsiblity of the tournament planning team to raise that money, if they don't I am sorry. I do know that they followed the PDGA rules perfectly, but I think it is a shame when people get ripped off. I heard several people say, "I joined the PDGA ($50) just to play in this event cause I heard it was cool, and I paid my entry fee, but I promise that I will never play in it again." What happened to last years payout? Last year I got 6th place in Rec and got $80 in plastic.
I will not be playing the Texas States again unless the payout system is going to be posted before hand. I didn't cash this year so it is not like I am complaining about my personal payout, but as a TD and certified official of the PDGA I was embarrassed with that Payout.
4. Great to see so many people that I have not seen in a while.
I am not complaining just to complain. I did enjoy myself, I just thought the payout was BAD!!
Lets hear everyone elses thoughts....
Doug Rogers
Moderator005
Oct 24 2004, 08:38 PM
Doug,
I know you are upset about the payout, but was it really necessary to start a separate thread on Texas States with your complaints AFTER you had already posted this same thing on the HFDS Message Board? Alternatively, you could have shared these thoughts on the existing Texas States thread. (http://www.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=TournamentInfo&Number=207391&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=4)
heavyvynyl
Oct 24 2004, 10:00 PM
The first problem I see here is that we have "recreational" players paying $39 and competing for prizes. Shouldn't the whole idea of "recreational" be based around a fun experience for a beginner or for someone new to the tournament structure. The fact that you placed 6th in a recreational division and won $80 worth of anything just goes to show how screwed up of a system we have going. Don't even get me started on how you didn't cash "this year", that just goes to show you how we reward mediocrity in our current system and actually keep people from moving up.....................................why am I wasting my time...................
well since Doug is a PDGA member he has all the right in the world to post on this site even if he did post on the HFDS site. I was there and i heard many intermediate players upset with the payout. 2nd in rec gets $50 with all those players. Normally the payout is posted sunday morning before the final round, but here it was never posted until they had all results for each division. You didnt know how many spots they were paying or anything. How can you finish 2nd in your division and not even make your entry fee back?
Gents,
Let's address this here and now - Texas States always has an open book policy, and always will.
We paid 120% to all Am divisions, Jrs and Adv slightly higher. We did value the player packages at $30, which includes a 2 color front/1 color back shirt, a tournament stamped disc and a custom screened towel. Our costs for these shirts were definitely higher than implied in an earlier post, and we quoted by 2 disc golf supporters. These retails price for the player packs are standard and definitely not out of line. After providing the 120% payback to include the player's package, the payouts were almost directly from the PDGA calculations for no. paid and amount. Remember $4 of your entry fee goes back to the PDGA as a player fee for a SuperTour.
Posting of payout was a little slower, because we wanted to be sure we captured all our income from sales and expenses. Because all rounds Sunday were tee times, we posted payouts along with scores as they became available.
Our sponsorship was done a great deal in merchandise vs cash this year, and therefore there were:
- CTPs for all divisions, including specialized ones for women on both rounds saturday
- 3 kegs of beer and 1 keg of rootbeer for refreshments
- Free lunches on Saturday
- $100 Wilmont treasure (nobody found!)
- pick-your-own merchandise, instead of packaging much of the donated merchandise into Am payouts.
HFDS kicks in over $500 in cash sponsorship themselves, let alone the countless hours put in to hold an event like this. Yes, we were ourselves somewhat disappointed with the am and pro payouts all around, considering 2003 was a record payout for TX states in the past both pro and ams, which we will always be compared to. We met the PDGA standards, and provided a lot of amenities besides, especially in a soft economic market for sponsorship late in the year.
I will post the key financials as soon as I receive them. Larry and I and the rest of the Texas States staff will stand up and respond to any questions you have, public or private. We make essentially nothing on this event. This event is put on solely for the benefit of the local and regional disc golfing community
Dave Nesbitt & Larry Kruse
and the remainder of the staff of Texas States
on behalf of the Houston Flying Disc Society
disctance00
Oct 24 2004, 10:53 PM
My thoughts on Texas States....Always had plenty of water never once ran out of it, thanks guys. Clearly marked hole locations and distances, thanks guys. Plenty of people spotting for blind shots, thanks guys. Tournament seemed to have ran smooth, thanks guys.
Payout???I have never played for payout so I really don't care what the payout is in ANY division. As long as I can birdie the holes people layup on... I'm happy. Thanks T-States staff for a fun , competitive tourney.
scoop
Oct 24 2004, 11:07 PM
I think the payout complaints are very valid.
The numbers all add up to one irrefutable truth>the Men's Intermediate and Recreational divions were robbed to coverup the lack of sponsorship dollars and to pad the payouts of ALL other divisions.
The Int. Men's divions paid about 1100 in entry fees. The winner beat 21 other players and 'won' $75. The Recreational Mens division also contributed about $1100 to the payout pool. The winner, who beat 27 other players? Won a whopping $35. Didn't even win back his entry fee.
Mean while, in the 7 women's Advanced field, the winner took home over $100 in payout. The Men's Advanced winner beat out 28 other players and took home about $350 in payout.
I heard a lot of complaints and a lot of "I'm not coming back next year". How do you expect the bulk of your field to 'want' to come back when they are being taken advantage of so blatantly?
This tournament had all the potential to be World Class, the courses were perfect, the competition was top notch. But the field size was smaller than anticipated, and then the payout left a lot players with a very bad taste in their mouth. This player included.
Sorry, Larry. I know and appreciate all the hard work that you guys put into this tournament, and for nearly every player NOT in men's Int. or Rec, it was a tremendous success. But I left feeling very dissapointed.
tbender
Oct 24 2004, 11:42 PM
I've had a few moments to consider this one before posting.....
A correction to Rooster's figures, since he forgot to subtract $4 per player for PDGA fees....
Entry Fees In --
Adv. Men (29) - $1595.
Adv. Women (7) - $385.
Int. Men (22) - $990.
Rec. Men (28) - $980.
Players Pack (In my estimation what the legitimate Disc Golf Retail would be....*) -- $25
Disc $10 (DX Aviar with Tournament Stamp)
Towel $5
T-Shirt $10
Subtracting out $25 per player leaves....
Adv. Men (29) - $870
Adv. Women (7) - $210**
Int. Men (22) - $440
Rec. Men (28) - $280
All of a sudden it doesn't look so bad. I am still confused with the payout of the Advanced champion, since $350 looks to include a basket and no basket was received. But, I guess in the end it all works out.
*Not what it would cost at Wal-Mart, but what a disc vendor could charge and expect to get. We aren't printing a couple million, we're printing a couple hundred.
**With the women's divisions, money is always added in an attempt to gain and keep players, if you have a problem with that sorry. So the numbers may not add up quite right there.
Personally I could name a couple of other events that get these complaints year in and year out. If this is the only complaint about States this year and it severally affects turnout next year, so be it. The more dollars spread out amongst those who do show up. This year was tight, not just here but elsewhere as well. Look at turnout numbers and understand that if players' dollars are tight, so are sponsors' dollars. Why? Well, that's another subject all the fools in DC to answer.....
ching_lizard
Oct 25 2004, 12:20 AM
Whew! I'm friggin' exhausted...and after all of the time, effort, and personal expense associated with hosting this event on the part of all of the staffers, volunteers and other organizers of this event, it is dissappointing to see public criticism like this.
Yeah - we certainly didn't pay as handsomely this year as we did last year, but the sponsorship we sought simply dried up. Even our product-only sponsors cut-back their support of our event this year.
Many of the clubs and other tournament events which HFDS sponsored year after year (with mostly cash) only provided us with merchandise this year...much of it which which had to be given away as CTPs and the basket toss.
The only valid point of disagreement anyone should have was the fact that given a fixed amount of income, and low sponsorship, was in how we chose to distribute the money available.
For my part, I thought the most important thing was to try and do everything we could to maintain our A-tier status in spite of poor fund-raising results this year. The PDGA guidelines state that we have to have a minimum of $2,000 added cash and a $7,000 minimum Pro purse. Secondly, I personally campaigned for providing a players pack which exceeded the PDGA guidelines so that the "wealth" of the tournament would be distributed to more players. I'm still deciding about the wisdom of that decision as opposed to going for that fat amateur payout thing. But I have to think that spreading the wealth to all of the amateur players instead of just the top third or so is better.
It just might have escaped your consideration however that we cleared the $2,000 added cash mark by about $300...
We had to order a lot of stuff in advance, and at the 2 weeks-before-the-tournament mark, we had 39 registrants. Many thanks to those of you that pre-registered via Title Disc or via snail-mail. You folks ROCK!!! :D For all those of you that didn't, then a paltry $5 late registration fee obviously wasn't enough! At Tuesday's meeting (3 days before the event) we had 69 entrants. I had to place my order for shirts and towels and lunches for Saturday...folks were lucky that we guessed accurately enough that we were able to provide a players pack to 150 of the 152 entrants. (Even as the TD, I didn't get a players pack...nor did any of our staffers!)
Perhaps the better thing to do would be for HFDS to withold its sponsorship of so many other tournaments round the state and just give their money to its own tournament instead... What do you think Doug? Which tournaments would you think the club should put on the "choppin' block?"
Here's the details - we will answer all questions. I have NEVER seen another tournament willing to post this info . . .
<table border="1"><tr><td> Income</td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td>US$</td><td></td><td>Expenses</td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td>US$
</td></tr><tr><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td>
</td></tr><tr><td>Pro Entry Fees</td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td> $3,145 </td><td></td><td>Pro Purse</td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td> $5,755
</td></tr><tr><td>Cash Sponsorships</td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td> $3,340 </td><td></td><td>Pro Player Packs - Actual Cost</td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td>$396
</td></tr><tr><td>Amateur Entry Fees</td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td> $5,285 </td><td></td><td>Amateur Prizes - Actual Cost</td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td> $1,879
</td></tr><tr><td>Junior Entry Fees</td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td> $100 </td><td></td><td>Amateur Player Packs - Actual Cost</td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td>$2,357
</td></tr><tr><td>Non-Cash Sponsorships Value</td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td> $3,400 </td><td></td><td>Non-Cash Sponsorships Value</td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td> $3,400
</td></tr><tr><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td>Sponsor Costs: Signs, Banners, Shirts</td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td>
</td></tr><tr><td>Other Cash: Raffles, Contests, etc.</td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td>Other Cash Prizes: Skins, etc.</td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td>
</td></tr><tr><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td>Other Prizes: CTPs, etc.- Actual Cost</td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td>$125
</td></tr><tr><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td>Trophies</td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td> $135
</td></tr><tr><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td>
</td></tr><tr><td>PDGA Fees from All Players</td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td> $608 </td><td></td><td>Player Fees to PDGA</td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td> $608
</td></tr><tr><td>$5 Fees from Non-Current Players</td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td> $- </td><td></td><td>$5 Non-current Fees to PDGA</td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td> $-
</td></tr><tr><td>Ace Pool</td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td> $600 </td><td></td><td>Ace Pool</td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td> $600
</td></tr><tr><td>Regional Series Fees</td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td>Regional Series Fees</td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td> $-
</td></tr><tr><td>Local Club Fees</td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td>Local Club Fees</td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td> $-
</td></tr><tr><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td>PDGA Sanctioning/Insurance</td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td> $150
</td></tr><tr><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td>Park Permits</td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td>
</td></tr><tr><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td>Equipment Rental, Ice, Sheriff, etc.</td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td>$848
</td></tr><tr><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td>Printing & Advertising</td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td>
</td></tr><tr><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td>Communication</td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td>
</td></tr><tr><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td>Staff: Shirts, Plyr Packs - Actual Cost</td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td>
</td></tr><tr><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td>Charitable Contribution</td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td>
</td></tr><tr><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td>DGWN Ad</td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td> $265
</td></tr><tr><td>Merchandise Profit</td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td> $400 </td><td></td><td>Cost of Merchandise</td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td>
</td></tr><tr><td>Food & Beverage Sales</td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td>Food & Beverage Costs</td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td>
</td></tr><tr><td>Other Income : please specify</td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td>Other Expense : custom discs & minis</td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td>
</td></tr><tr><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td>Bank Expenses</td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td> $54
</td></tr><tr><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td>Logo Party</td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td> $110
</td></tr><tr><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td>TD Fee (if not donated)</td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td>
</td></tr><tr><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td>
</td></tr><tr><td>Total Income</td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td> $16,878 </td><td></td><td>Total Expenses</td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td> $16,682
</td></tr><tr><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td>NET: PROFIT or (LOSS)</td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td> $196
</td></tr><tr><td> </tr></td></table>
<table border="1"><tr><td> ADVANCED DIVISION</td><td></td><td></td><td>
</td></tr><tr><td># Paid</td><td>Field Size</td><td></td><td>Total Fees: </td><td> $1,595
</td></tr><tr><td>13</td><td>29</td><td></td><td>Net Purse: </td><td>$1,254
</td></tr><tr><td></td><td>Value of Player Pkg</td><td>$870
</td></tr><tr><td></td><td>Total Payout\</td><td>$2,124
</td></tr><tr><td></td><td>% of Entry</td><td>133%
</td></tr><tr><td> </tr></td></table>
<table border="1"><tr><td>ADVANCED MASTERS DIVISION</td><td></td><td></td><td>
</td></tr><tr><td># Paid</td><td>Field Size</td><td></td><td>Total Fees: </td><td> $1,045
</td></tr><tr><td>8</td><td>19</td><td></td><td>Net Purse: </td><td>$684
</td></tr><tr><td></td><td>Value of Player Pkg</td><td>$570
</td></tr><tr><td></td><td>Total Payout\</td><td>$1,254
</td></tr><tr><td></td><td>% of Entry</td><td>120%
</td></tr><tr><td> </tr></td></table>
<table border="1"><tr><td>ADVANCED WOMEN DIVISION</td><td></td><td></td><td>
</td></tr><tr><td># Paid</td><td>Field Size</td><td></td><td>Total Fees: </td><td> $385
</td></tr><tr><td>4</td><td>7</td><td></td><td>Net Purse: </td><td>$252
</td></tr><tr><td></td><td>Value of Player Pkg</td><td>$210
</td></tr><tr><td></td><td>Total Payout\</td><td>$462
</td></tr><tr><td></td><td>% of Entry</td><td>120%
</td></tr><tr><td> </tr></td></table>
<table border="1"><tr><td> ADVANCED GRANDMASTER AM</td><td></td><td></td><td>
</td></tr><tr><td># Paid</td><td>Field Size</td><td></td><td>Total Fees: </td><td> $220
</td></tr><tr><td>2</td><td>4</td><td></td><td>Net Purse: </td><td>$144
</td></tr><tr><td></td><td>Value of Player Pkg</td><td>$120
</td></tr><tr><td></td><td>Total Payout\</td><td>$264
</td></tr><tr><td></td><td>% of Entry</td><td>120%
</td></tr><tr><td> </tr></td></table>
<table border="1"><tr><td> INTERMEDIATE AM DIVISION</td><td></td><td></td><td>
</td></tr><tr><td># Paid</td><td>Field Size</td><td></td><td>Total Fees: </td><td> $990
</td></tr><tr><td>11</td><td>22</td><td></td><td>Net Purse: </td><td>$528
</td></tr><tr><td></td><td>Value of Player Pkg</td><td>$660
</td></tr><tr><td></td><td>Total Payout\</td><td>$1,188
</td></tr><tr><td></td><td>% of Entry</td><td>120%
</td></tr><tr><td> </tr></td></table>
<table border="1"><tr><td> RECREATIONAL AM DIVISION</td><td></td><td></td><td>
</td></tr><tr><td># Paid</td><td>Field Size</td><td></td><td>Total Fees: </td><td> $980
</td></tr><tr><td>14</td><td>28</td><td></td><td>Net Purse: </td><td>$336
</td></tr><tr><td></td><td>Value of Player Pkg</td><td>$840
</td></tr><tr><td></td><td>Total Payout\</td><td>$1,176
</td></tr><tr><td></td><td>% of Entry</td><td>120%
</td></tr><tr><td> </tr></td></table>
<table border="1"><tr><td> RECREATIONAL WOMEN AM</td><td></td><td></td><td>
</td></tr><tr><td># Paid</td><td>Field Size</td><td></td><td>Total Fees: </td><td> $70
</td></tr><tr><td>2</td><td>2</td><td></td><td>Net Purse: </td><td>$24
</td></tr><tr><td></td><td>Value of Player Pkg</td><td>$60
</td></tr><tr><td></td><td>Total Payout\</td><td>$84
</td></tr><tr><td></td><td>% of Entry</td><td>120%
</td></tr><tr><td> </tr></td></table>
<table border="1"><tr><td> BOYS JR < 16</td><td></td><td></td><td>
</td></tr><tr><td># Paid</td><td>Field Size</td><td></td><td>Total Fees: </td><td> $75
</td></tr><tr><td>2</td><td>3</td><td></td><td>Net Purse: </td><td>$25
</td></tr><tr><td></td><td>Value of Player Pkg</td><td>$90
</td></tr><tr><td></td><td>Total Payout\</td><td>$115
</td></tr><tr><td></td><td>% of Entry</td><td>153%
</td></tr><tr><td> </tr></td></table>
<table border="1"><tr><td> </tr></td></table>
And a chainstar basket was an option for the Adv winner in his pick-your-own payout . . .
The flat payout tables shown for most all am divisions are directly from the PDGA, except for the addition to the Adv winner and 2nd place. . .
sandalman
Oct 25 2004, 01:20 AM
note to Ching and Staff: Great Job!
note to whining ams: go practice, get better, and move up. if you cant get better, run a couple tourneys and then apologize to Larry, Nez and the HFDS.
bruce_brakel
Oct 25 2004, 01:58 AM
It has been a tough year all over the country for TDs raising sponsorship and filling the field with players. Looks like attendance was down about 40 players for this one. When a TD works his [*****] off to put on an A-tier, attendance lags and he barely meets his obligations, no one is more disappointed than he is.
These TDs met their A-tier obligations. Looks like they raised some decent sponsorship and gave it all back. Nez posting his financials like that is really quite extraordinary and above board.
Normally I'm the first non-player from some distant state to pile on a good rip-off thread. But here I think it would be "injuring the goodstanding of another member," for anyone to continue with any allegations in that vein. There can be consequences for that, so let's not go there.
Bruce Brakel
Oversight
esalazar
Oct 25 2004, 08:15 AM
lower entries - trophy only in am divs... problem solved!!!
everyone knows what to expect no possible discrepencies!!
OK EVERYONE!!
Here I am the day after an event after getting some much needed rest and able to sit back and think about what I wrote and it was one of those "DID I REALLY ACTUALLY WRITE THAT" UGH!!!!!!!!!!
I want to post a public apology to the STAFF, NEZ and LARRY for my rude remarks. If I felt this way I should have just called them up and talk to them. As soon as I get a chance I will personally apologize. My post was tacky.
Not only have I apologized I have even asked if I can volunteer for next years event. To be on staff and stick my neck out there with the rest of them. :-) Hope they take me up on that effort.
Sincerly,
Doug Rogers
Sandalman,
I do practice, I don't seem to get better, and I do run events, and guess what I also apologized to STAFF, NEZ and LARRY.
Peace,
Doug Rogers
seewhere
Oct 25 2004, 08:42 AM
CTPs for all divisions, including specialized ones for women on both rounds saturday
-
- Free lunches on Saturday
sorry you cant count this stuff in your payout and this was not FREE 3 kegs of beer and root beer you guys were taking donations. Lunches were FREE just not sure how long those burritoes sat out. :o
scoop
Oct 25 2004, 09:06 AM
Sandalboy--
You can kiss my arse. I'll personally look for you at forthcoming tournaments and we can discuss why what you just spouted off is a pile of condescending sh*t.
My 879 rating places me squarely at the bottom of my divisional bracket. I'm playing where I belong. Or, are you suggesting that the PDGA players rating system should be scrapped or doesn't work?
I've been playing tournaments for all of 11 months. I'm an old, disabled veteran who really just can't hang with some of the young'uns playing MA1 and MPO.
Evidently you can't either, as you smuggly cast stones from the shelter of your age-protected divisions. What's the matter old man...why don't you practice more, get better, and move up to play with the 'big boys'? Or were you just talking out of your arse again?
ching_lizard
Oct 25 2004, 09:06 AM
Easy there CW - with the $250-500 (cash) that HFDS sends to RR every year for Outlaws and/or Pro Doubles wouldn't it be reasonable to expect something in return? What was RR's contribution this year? Merch only. Not much opportunity to utilize merch-only donations in a pick-your-own-payout system...unless it happens to be something players want...
Yeah, we asked for donations for the beverages in hopes that we might convert a product-only sponsorship into a little badly needed cash. It was strictly voluntary donation. Most opted not to contribute...a few opted to give us $5 for a glass of cold beer or rootbeer. We netted approximately $120 worth of contributions to this fund...
Food on Saturday was delivered approximately 10 minutes after the first 4 cards from round 1 were turned in...they were still hot when I snagged mine.
I guess asking for donations is just another way to fleece all of our players equally instead of just the Ams. :confused:
seewhere
Oct 25 2004, 09:15 AM
$250-500 (cash) that HFDS sends to RR every year
I will have to look into this not sure if I have ever seen Houston give RER $ 500. PS thanks forthe shirt.
minus the rain good tourney. for sure more organized then the ball golf disc golf challenge :confused:
scoop
Oct 25 2004, 09:19 AM
Larry,
I think you're a hell of a guy and have done a great job with HFDS and Texas States, and even more for the overall betterment of disc golf. So, my criticism of this weekend's tournament is not personal.
I agree with you that the only valid disagreement was the disparity in how payments were allocated.
The good? Oh, it definitily out weighed the bad. I enjoyed this tournament more than any other I've played this year (with the exception of Worlds Doubles in San Saba...because, let's face it...San Saba is the Meca of all disc golf).
I had the good fortune to play on the Int. Men's Leader card for the final 27 on Sunday. Adding to that experience was that my brother Marty was on the same card. It felt like championship golf all day. And that's the best thing we can ask for.
One bit of constructive criticism (more of a suggestion, really): is it time to consider making Texas States a B-tier?
And finally, Larry, make sure to hit me up in advance next year for some $$ sponsorship. I'd be glad to help this event continue to be one of the best tournaments in the state.
ETA: And it was the nicest players pack I've seen this year...the t-shirt looks great. That logo should be stamped on some discs (other than minis).
ching_lizard
Oct 25 2004, 09:19 AM
I've got 'em in the car for you CW...but since you and V split before we were done I never got a chance to deliver them to you. I'll hang onto them though and hopefully we'll hook up one of these days...
seewhere
Oct 25 2004, 09:27 AM
sounds good. tired after 27 holes and was ready to get home to the family. maybe see ya next year somewhere as for my PDGA playing days are all but over. more mini and casual golf for me.
vinnie
Oct 25 2004, 10:40 AM
This thread needs to die! People ALL OUT right complaining, but unable to provide solution.
Get in a TEXAS T.D.�s shoes and look at what we face, provide complainers something to chew on, Constant sponsorship dry up, Events drawing away from established tournaments, Planning for unexpected numbers,
Healthy criticism is one thing. And it can be directed to the individuals involved
NOT UN-INTELEGENTLY BLURTED OUT.
You want it better, make it better, get involved�.. quit sounding like ****** off wifes
james_mccaine
Oct 25 2004, 10:44 AM
About payout gripes in general. I don't intend to diminish anyone's gripes, because they may sometimes be warranted. However, it appears they are not in this case.
Larry, the decision to pay the lower divisions in a flat payout cannot be analyzed solely by the reactions of those that voice their opinion. I maintain there are probably a number of people who were quite pleased to get their players pack, felt they got a good value, loved the tourney, but you never heard from them . My advice is to do what you think is right and stick to it.
******** about tournament payouts in general (by all divisions) is irritating to me. People get to play a game they love, generally with quality people, on great courses and then they go crap on the experience by worrying about monetary rewards.
By the way, great job Larry et al. The courses were awesome as usual. I always look forward to the annual foray on the tourney course. Plenty of cold water. I enjoyed it.
Off topic. Larry, something is askew with those ratings for the last round (maybe the first two also). There is no way in hell that Joel and Nolan's -3 is rated at 986. Maybe the pool data is off.
Kudos also to Doug Rogers for apologizing and volunteering. I think that's pretty cool.
disctance00
Oct 25 2004, 10:45 AM
Rooster says.."One bit of constructive criticism (more of a suggestion, really): is it time to consider making Texas States a B-tier?"
Nah...keep it A-tier and do just what Larry suggested earlier, PULL sponsorship of other tournies. Keep the money for T-states, let people find their own sponsor $$$. It is not going to matter what you do, people will always find something to complain about :(
Doug Rogers, It takes alot to back on this board and publicly apologize for comments made, cheers to ya.
seewhere
Oct 25 2004, 10:47 AM
good playing Mccaine
Larry and Hfds staff,Here is my two cents.GREAT JOB.The only thing I did not like about States was How I played the first round on the tourney course.Look forward to next year .
jeterdawg
Oct 25 2004, 12:01 PM
Doug, maybe you can share how the financial aspect of the Pecan Park Open was run, because there weren't a ton of players there, and for a $40-50 entry (in MA2), the payout was very FAT. And it was pick-your-own. And we got done quickly, and I was back in town after a 3+ hr. drive before 9 pm! And daylight savings started that weekend. Okay, so Doug didn't have control over the last one, but the PPO is always on that weekend as far as I know, and that's my favorite time of the year--an extra hour of light to play DG and my busy season at work is over.
My rant with bad payout isn't with the number aspect; as I'm an accountant, and understand why many times the money that gets to the purse just isn't alot. My rant is with the stuff that you get paid out with. Some are pick-your-own, some are not, but when players are paid out with shirts, hats, and other items that they'll probably never use which were left over from the player's packages and previous tournaments, that's just not cool. If you have extra stuff like this because you didn't estimate your field size well, and no one is going to take it in pick-your-own payout, suck it up and give it away in a CTP. Receiving a t-shirt that's 3 sizes too big, or a hat, isn't going to make my game any better. Getting a disc that I probably wouldn't have chosen otherwise might make my game better, as I'd probably learn how to throw it, and if I didn't like it, I'd give it to a new player.
well well lets see the thing that i believe that the td for tx states really dropped the ball on was that fact that no matter when we have states it always FLIPPIN RAINS!!!! :D:Dcouldn't you work on that for next year please.
hey really everyone did a great job kudos
well run and staffed
as far as the pay out issue i wouldn't know since i moved up i havn't seen any :( :(
Lyle O Ross
Oct 25 2004, 12:08 PM
Doug, maybe you can share how the financial aspect of the Pecan Park Open was run, because there weren't a ton of players there, and for a $40-50 entry (in MA2), the payout was very FAT. And it was pick-your-own. And we got done quickly, and I was back in town after a 3+ hr. drive before 9 pm! And daylight savings started that weekend. Okay, so Doug didn't have control over the last one, but the PPO is always on that weekend as far as I know, and that's my favorite time of the year--an extra hour of light to play DG and my busy season at work is over.
My rant with bad payout isn't with the number aspect; as I'm an accountant, and understand why many times the money that gets to the purse just isn't alot. My rant is with the stuff that you get paid out with. Some are pick-your-own, some are not, but when players are paid out with shirts, hats, and other items that they'll probably never use which were left over from the player's packages and previous tournaments, that's just not cool. If you have extra stuff like this because you didn't estimate your field size well, and no one is going to take it in pick-your-own payout, suck it up and give it away in a CTP. Receiving a t-shirt that's 3 sizes too big, or a hat, isn't going to make my game any better. Getting a disc that I probably wouldn't have chosen otherwise might make my game better, as I'd probably learn how to throw it, and if I didn't like it, I'd give it to a new player.
I'm confused, are you talking about Texas States here? Payout was pick your own and it was all new, mostly unmarked plastic. In fact it was a very wide choice including bags and other items. Larry who is getting a lot of unwarrented hazzle here went out of his way to make sure that was the case.
tbender
Oct 25 2004, 12:10 PM
Methinks he's complaining about another event that isn't Pick-Your-Payout and is notorious for their payouts. :)
would of liked some food sun .I thought I saw there was going to be food both days .Maybe I am wrong ,With the tee times it made it hard to get to the store if you were carpooling as we were .My-Hero I hope it rains on you from now on .JK :D
cgflesner
Oct 25 2004, 12:13 PM
If yall want better pay out them you should move up to a division that pays out less than 50%.
I saw clutch, who won advanced, walking away with so much plastic that two of his buddies had to help him carry it off to the truck.
I don't know about you but that sounds like a preaty **** good payout to me.
And i think that larry ran a great tournamnet this weekend, and the courses were in the best shape that i have ever seen.
Well run, the tee times were great. There wasn�t a back up of more than five minutes on the card I was on. That's pretty amazing considering the course.
The payout was good from where I was. Usually the bottom half (5th-10th) of payout is always the same from tourney to tourney. The selection was the best I've seen at any big tournament: birdie bags (which are rare in payouts for some reason), shirts, towels, minis, Innova, Discract, and every disc type you could want.
The lower divisions were made A tier this year because the players asked for it and those in charge responded. Thanks! Hopefully it stays that way.
Can't wait for next year and some revenge on the dragon!
The courses looked better than I have ever seen them. A big thanks to HFDS for their part and thanks to the Houston Parks Department as well!
Thanks for all of the hard work all of HFDS and staff put into this tournament!
I didn't play this weekend but got to see some great golf by all divisions.
I no longer reside in the ranks of Amatuer but I support ALL of them 110%!
What you feeble minded, cocky & arrogant players (those who have publicly making your opinion about Ams) have failed to realize is that the Amateur divisions are the future of this sport. There will be no future of this sport if you don't support your future competition. I can't wait for the day to see several of them whip your a-- on the course.
Most of you were among the Amateur ranks at some point.
Don't bother responding to me because you are not worth my time. I work my butt off for a living just like many of the "Am" players do. They practice when they aren't busy supporting their families so give them a break, they will get there someday.
You need to support the Amateur players coming up because they are the ones putting the money into your pockets.
Numbers look great on paper, but the fact is that Peter was robbed to pay Paul.
I support any TD that runs a tournament because I see how much time they have to put into it. There is a lot of hard work that goes into it.
Unfortunatley, I heard many who said they will not be back next year.
Thanks again Larry for all of your hard work.
Mary
Nelle 18131
Oct 25 2004, 12:42 PM
I love this tournie even though it is the hardest I have ever played and it rains everytime. :DThe staff is wonderful and the HFDS comes together and gets it done. I dont really understand the payout system and I should try to learn it. But for some reason this one just didnt seem right. I hope that everything was done how it was supposed to be and I trust that it will be taken care of. I do feel bad for the lower divisions that didnt get taken care of because they are the future and would hate for them to be ****** off and have a bad taste in there mouth when they move up. It was a very well run tournie and as a player I dont know half of what it takes to run such a big tournie. Good job Larry and staff.
See you next year.
Lyle O Ross
Oct 25 2004, 12:44 PM
I want to add my compliments to Larry and Nez and other staffers. While I did help some with staffing, I went to the tournament as a player. What a blast! This has been the best Texas States I have played in.
I got involved in staffing this year to try and pay back some of the karma that Larry and other long suffering HFDS members have put into the sport. Through the process I got to watch the incredible amount of work that Larry, Nez, Jeff, Andi, Kent, and other members put in. Anyone who has not participated in the preparation for such an event, can't possibly understand, not just the effort, but the incredible amount of knowledge and skill these people bring to this task... Oh and did I mention they do it pro bono (what a joke, it costs them a pretty penny).
The fact that they are willing to get on here and explain their numbers and rational for payout and structure is a testament to how they run Texas States. What can I say but thanks guys, if not from all, then from those who actually took the time to look at what you've done.
seewhere
Oct 25 2004, 12:47 PM
mostly unmarked plastic
what does this mean?
Lyle O Ross
Oct 25 2004, 12:51 PM
Perhaps I misunderstood the first post. The indication was payout made of old plastic from past tournaments that had accumulated over the years. I was trying to indicate that this was not the case, that most of the plastic was straight off the shelf with no tournament logos.
tbender
Oct 25 2004, 12:55 PM
Numbers look great on paper, but the fact is that Peter was robbed to pay Paul.
Remember that during VPO Pro weekend.
spartan
Oct 25 2004, 01:08 PM
moon cheese (http://www.skepticreport.com/funnies/mooncheese.htm)
and now for something slighly off subject.
I may or may not be playing.
Why do you think that I haven't been playing as much as a Pro. I don't feel like I should benefit off of other people.
There have been several tourneys I could have gone to with at least a couple of women signed up.
I want to earn my winnings the same way as everyone else. If I get rewarded more then I want everyone else to have equal treatment.
By the way, I didn't see any numbers for the tournament you are speaking about. My time staffing was spent during that weekend only since I work so much during the week.
James McCaine - �Kudos also to Doug Rogers for apologizing and volunteering. I think that's pretty cool.�
Disctance00 � �Doug Rogers, It takes alot to back on this board and publicly apologize for comments made, cheers to ya.�
Thanks guys.
I do see this as an issue that should be discussed in the future at the PDGA level and I hope it will be. As a TD, I do know how hard it is and the pressure you feel to meet those PDGA requirements, and having PDGA big wigs (meant in the nicest way) involved makes that pressure even bigger. I was apologizing for the way I presented my concerns. I still think my concerns are valid and I hope the HFDS will allow me to volunteer so I can express these views during the planning process for the 2005 TSC.
Doug Rogers
my_hero
Oct 25 2004, 01:25 PM
Any bets on whether or not it will rain next year at States? :p
Moderator005
Oct 25 2004, 01:57 PM
lower entries - trophy only in am divs... problem solved!!!
everyone knows what to expect no possible discrepencies!!
With regards to this comment, I'll agree that usually when the entry fees are lower, there is FAR less payout scrutiny. Most people aren't worried about a few dollars here or there and getting "fair equity" when the entry fee is $30 or less. According to the PDGA 2004 Sanctioning Agreement (http://www.pdga.com/documents/td/04SanctionAgreement.pdf), the recommended 'A' tier tour event entry fees are $40 for intermediate and $30 for recreational. The Texas States entry fees were $49 and $39, respectively. I think that it's only when you start seeing higher entry fees that people scrutinize the payout so closely.
My $.02
esalazar
Oct 25 2004, 02:02 PM
there is also those b-tiers with $60 + entries..
Doug,
Remember I was in the PDGA shoes when those stds were developed and approved, and I wholeheartedly support them, both then and now, despite the present economic times.
What it sounds like you are asking is for the Am SuperTour payout standards to be increased from 120% of payout, which can include a $30 player package. In this event, with 110 people, to include the player package gratus (all custom items - no "giveaways" from companies that inflated the value), it would have taken an additional approx. $2250 wholesale ($3300 retail) more to add to the am field., taking the am payout to well over 150%.
Again our books are open and posted, we provided over 120% of payout to the am field, provided pick-your-own payout, provided custom tournment disc, towel and t-shirt in the player package. If you are advocating payout standards for Am divisions HIGHER than 120% at the SuperTour, please say so here. Flatter payouts in Am divisions are recommended by the PDGA and supported by this event, to help enhance the experience for all players.
According to the PDGA 2004 Sanctioning Agreement, the recommended 'A' tier tour event entry fees are $40 for intermediate and $30 for recreational. The Texas States entry fees were $49 and $39, respectively.
Those recommendations are without the PDGA fees included. Add $4 per player for PDGA sanction fees, and you can see we are very close to those recommendations.
seewhere
Oct 25 2004, 02:09 PM
has anyone noticed how the # of OPEN players in both masters and Pro are getting SMALLER & SMALLER. I wonder WHY ..
not really I know why.
so we Have SCORES WHERE IS THE PAYOUT!!! want to see how bad my bro got screwed for 2nd in REC. thanks
esalazar
Oct 25 2004, 02:13 PM
elaborate!!!! :D
kingrat6931
Oct 25 2004, 02:41 PM
Moon Cheese! :D:D
That was a great debate as compared to Bush/Kerry.
I'm gonna send it to some of my tight ***** buddies who take everything so serious.
As for you Texas State "whiners", GET A GRIP! This sport is for fun! I will agree that ALL entry fees are a bit expensive, but how much would you spend at Joe's Bar? Learn to enjoy playing disc golf with yer buddies and meeting new folks. If you play tourneys and are not satisfied with your payout, then don't play tourneys!
As Vinnie said, you all sound like a bunch of whiney wives! :D
Nez,
You know I am not arguing with you right, this is just a discussion?
I don't know why some tournaments do it and some don't. I guess it all depends on what sponsorships come in. I always see it as sponsorships pay for the players packages and added pro-purse, entry fees go back to the players (minus the PDGA fee of course). Now if sponsorships are low that concept doesn't work. Am I right or wrong?
Like I said on my private message to you and on here, I really want to volunteer on Staff next year and will help the club find as good a prices as possible on everything to help cut costs. I have a wholesale license and maybe I could find some cheaper prices and help. In fact, I just finished a complete website design for next years TSC and would love to show it to you sometime.
gnduke
Oct 25 2004, 03:19 PM
Sponsorship covering player's packs was probably a workable idea when players packs and their value was optional, now that they are required and have to reach pre-determined values, it will be harder to do.
I do know that we are spoiled here with most TD's covering a lot of the hidden costs out of pocket, and having the payouts equal to 100%+ of the gross income from entry fees.
Lyle O Ross -
To your question: "Doug, maybe you can share how the financial aspect of the Pecan Park Open was run, because there weren't a ton of players there, and for a $40-50 entry (in MA2), the payout was very FAT. And it was pick-your-own. And we got done quickly, and I was back in town after a 3+ hr. drive before 9 pm! And daylight savings started that weekend. Okay, so Doug didn't have control over the last one, but the PPO is always on that weekend as far as I know, and that's my favorite time of the year--an extra hour of light to play DG and my busy season at work is over."
1. I was just as involved as previous years but I tried to stay in the back ground this last year.
2. JOHN EDWARDS (Team Disaster) was a huge supporter and really helped us out a lot.
3. We used our sponsorship in this priority: 1st: Cover the PDGA costs. 2nd: to cover the cost of the skins, 3rd: cover the players packs. 4th: Try to meet the PDGA pro purse requirements.
This is not about compairing one tournament to another. I am totally confident that if the TSC had the sponsorships all the payouts would have been huge. Right now lets hear peoples honest opinions so we can all work together to make next years the best ever!!! ANY Help from the PDGA perhaps on sponsorships with their marketing people?
Duke,
I hope we are not expecting TDs to put their own $ into the event. I am totally broke and I never have put any out of pocket $ into it. :confused:
LOL
Doug Rogers
has anyone noticed how the # of OPEN players in both masters and Pro are getting SMALLER & SMALLER. I wonder WHY ..
not really I know why.
so we Have SCORES WHERE IS THE PAYOUT!!! want to see how bad my bro got screwed for 2nd in REC. thanks
Cware: I was tied for 5th in rec ( which paid out $26).. $39 entry fee and 1st and 2nc both got $35 back, 28 players. I played in the Louisianna States earlier this month ( a NON PDGA event) there were 28 players there at $20 entry fee. I took 4th there and Won $50.. Half the entry as Tx states and Double the payout. No ******** just the facts.
And come on guys. I personally didnt see the need for a Public apoligy from Doug. Those standing in line for the payout were saying the same thing he brough out. Kudos to Doug for getting here before I did.
tbender
Oct 25 2004, 06:48 PM
One more time.....1st and 2nd in Rec got their entry fee back. $4 went to the PDGA fees, so $35 was the actual entry fee. In reality, they got $25 player's packs AND their entry fees back in prizes.
rhett
Oct 25 2004, 06:51 PM
Plus the new PDGA pay-tables for Rec are very flat. The payout goes down about $2-$3 per place, effectively getting rid of that massive spike that 1st and 2nd take in the MPO payout.
hey mister go back to your side of the street. :D
rhett
Oct 25 2004, 06:53 PM
Texas' best OMB, who could only manage to tie me! :D
I guess I should try to make it out to Texas States. :)
Texas' best OMB, who could only manage to tie me! :D
I guess I should try to make it out to Texas States. :)
what ever floats your boat
tbender
Oct 25 2004, 07:03 PM
Texas' best OMB, who could only manage to tie me! :D
I guess I should try to make it out to Texas States. :)
Don't bother, the payouts bite. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
rhett
Oct 25 2004, 07:05 PM
Don't bother, the payouts bite. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
I like to judge a tourney on "total perceived event value". :) $300+ paydays for amateur division 1st place finishes don't mean much to me.
gasoline to and from Houston $80
two nights hotel stay $100
$35 to come in first place priceless
It seems to me that people who do not finish and do not cash should not be paid. That's what this is sounding like to me. I didn't cash, but I heard all the people who did (and got tiny payouts) and they were pretty disgruntled. I haven't heard that many angry people at the end of a tournament before. Food for thought... if you want any of us out-of-towners to come back, try paying the winners instead of everyone. The courses were great and it was a great time. But I have to support Doug (whoever he may be) since he is merely giving a voice to the many angry participants that cashed. Thanks for the opportunity to put in my two cents.
james_mccaine
Oct 25 2004, 07:15 PM
he is merely giving a voice to the many angry participants that cashed.
Yea, and what about those open guys who paid $89 and shot 20 to 30 strokes better than those that "cashed" and got $0.00? They are the ones that should be angry.
the_kid
Oct 25 2004, 07:24 PM
What about all the people who's dad had to pay $89 cashed but had to decline. Ok well i guess that was just me; Carry on. :confused: :confused:
seewhere
Oct 25 2004, 07:26 PM
I hear you on the ENTRY fee (flat doesn't describe well enuff) payout structure theory the PDGA likes but my beef is MAKE IT PUBLIC BEFORE THE TOURNEY and just maybe some of those folks 1. either won't come to your tourney or 2. move up and try winning something for their EFFORT!!
james_mccaine
Oct 25 2004, 07:33 PM
"had to decline" :p :p
Very nice shooting Matt.
TBender,
That was about as ridiculous of a comment as I had ever heard. Let's see quote:
"One more time.....1st and 2nd in Rec got their entry fee back. $4 went to the PDGA fees, so $35 was the actual entry fee. In reality, they got $25 player's packs AND their entry fees back in prizes. "
My point is whatever the players pack cost, how come the losers take money from the winners in any, not just this, tournament? If this was known up front, I would have saved the saved the $200.00+ I spent and went fishing
And one more thing, however do 1st and 2nd get the same prize. Now that is incentive to win
the_kid
Oct 25 2004, 07:42 PM
Thanks James by the way nice finish stealing the majority of the other old guys money. :D:D
Dang 1st round :mad::mad:
i agree with cware the payout should be posted before the tourney. I have never been to a tourney that didnt post it at all until final results were posted. This was a first
27dogs
Oct 25 2004, 09:03 PM
i'm glad now i didn't make it this year. lessoned learned here for you folks not happy. ( rightfully so) when these tourny threads start up somebody should post and ask the t.d. do you plan on taking money from am fields and giving to open. if the answer is yes don't go because that is what happened here.
open women, two players 89 dollars each in entry (178 dollars) paid out 305 dollars. 250for first with only 178 paid in.
adv. women 8 players 59 dollars each in entry (472 dollars) 1rst place woman 100 dollars.
adv. mstrs men paid in 1,121 and were paid out 682 dollars.
the only thing these guys did wrong is not being up front ahead time and telling people heh sponsors are not up to par this year so were taking from ams to give to the open fields. that way if you still decide to enter then you must agree.
this can be done because the pros certainly knew there was added cash way ahead of time. so yes there is a little deception when ams don't know ahead of time as well. but did anyone that has complained on this thread ask before the tourny that is the million dollar question.
gnduke
Oct 25 2004, 10:03 PM
$100 of the Open Women came from me as a sponsor of that division.
Player's packs valued at no less than $25 are required by the PDGA for every Am entrant in an A-Tier. This money comes out of the entry fees first, and might be replaced in the payout by sponsorships.
All the money is accounted for. Ams received the required 120% payout. The Rec payout standards are very flat and deep. Only Pro and Advanced still spike up hard for 1st and 2nd places.
This isn't a Texas States issue, it is happening everywhere. Tournaments will be making their payouts, but for the lower entry fee divisions, not much is left after taking out $4 PDGA fees and $25 for players packs.
sandalman
Oct 25 2004, 10:11 PM
Texas' best OMB, who could only manage to tie me!
I guess I should try to make it out to Texas States.
hahaha now this thread is funny :D
sandalman
Oct 25 2004, 10:24 PM
quote]Sandalman,
I do practice, I don't seem to get better, and I do run events, and guess what I also apologized to STAFF, NEZ and LARRY.
[/QUOTE]doug, you da man. its easy (too?) to post in haste and then have a different thought later. been there! i admire you for taking the time to rethink things. i hope i didnt jump on you too bad. practicing is tough, for sure, and god knows it DOES take some time to get better. good luck!
Sandalboy--
You can kiss my arse. I'll personally look for you at forthcoming tournaments and we can discuss why what you just spouted off is a pile of condescending sh*t.
My 879 rating places me squarely at the bottom of my divisional bracket. I'm playing where I belong. Or, are you suggesting that the PDGA players rating system should be scrapped or doesn't work?
I've been playing tournaments for all of 11 months. I'm an old, disabled veteran who really just can't hang with some of the young'uns playing MA1 and MPO.
Evidently you can't either, as you smuggly cast stones from the shelter of your age-protected divisions. What's the matter old man...why don't you practice more, get better, and move up to play with the 'big boys'? Or were you just talking out of your arse again?
cockfetish, the reason i "spouted off" (thats kinda funny considering this thread's premise) is because i stood in the payout line listening to a bunch of punks who (obviously) didnt know what they were talking about ***** and moan, some quite loudly, about the payout. as far as what i wrote, it wasnt addressed to you in any way shape or form.
for the record, players ratings seem like awfully good indicators of relative skills. i do practice, especially putting, almost every day, even if only for 20 minutes. i can point to at least 6 strokes i saved as a direct result of that practice. i won by 4, so i remain firmly convinced of the benefits of practice.
as fas as the "shelter of your age-protected divisions", i DO play MPO semi-regularly - prolly a half dozen tourneys so far. i'll be playing VPO pro weekend fo the second year. considering the whuppin that gets put on me as an MPO, i cannot be considered even remotely smug or reliant on age-protection.
Luke Butch
Oct 25 2004, 10:32 PM
Tournaments that pay Ams in plastic cost, not retail value are almost non- existant. In almost every tournament nationwide Am's entry fees are used to fund the pro purse. Or donated merch is used as prizes and the money saved goes to the pro purse. Unfortunately for Ams it the way it works. The exceptions would be Am only tournaments.
So either run an AM only tournament or don't play tournaments that do this until you're a pro.
27dogs
Oct 25 2004, 10:41 PM
ditto what you said. i think what i was saying above is t.ds. love promoting added cash ahead of time. at the same time they should be up front to the am divisions also. then if there is any moaning in the payout line to bad. maybe that is one of the reasons for texas 10 success.
tbender
Oct 25 2004, 10:47 PM
Are you the same Anon idiot who posted on the HFDS board? Do you want me to calculate up how much money I've spent on tourneys this year and chart them versus payout received? I think that will make your little $200 look quite paltry.
It's actually quite funny how a process designed to make more players happy ends up making more players unhappy. Greed is a funny thing. Doesn't anyone play tourneys for fun anymore?
Another sad thing is the fact that minimum payout percentages are known ahead of schedule, but very few are willing to look for them. Can't waste that effort in research, gotta save it for complaining afterwards.
And Gary, I'm sure any TD will be happy to post payout prior to the event as long as you guarantee the turnout numbers with your checkbook. The VPO Ams had the same problem with posting of payout and I didn't hear you complain there. Oh, that's right you won that one.
tbender
Oct 25 2004, 11:00 PM
Run an Am-only event and you get called a greedy TD.
scoop
Oct 25 2004, 11:18 PM
as fas as the "shelter of your age-protected divisions", i (sic) DO play MPO semi-regularly - prolly a half dozen tourneys so far. i'll be playing VPO pro weekend fo the second year. considering the whuppin that gets put on me as an MPO, i cannot be considered even remotely smug or reliant on age-protection.
Really? Because according to your PDGA history (which dates back to 2001) you have played:
4 Events as a Pro Master (age protected division)
24 Events as an Advanced Master (another age protected division)
2 Advanced Events (same event, two different years, was a doubles event)
So, you lied. You've never played in a single PDGA sanctioned event as an MPO. But, more accurately and as I stated earlier, you're hiding behind your age protected division while calling out younger players for not "moving up and playing with the big boys".
Also, I'm one of those 'punks' who was bemoaning the inequity of the payout distribution while waiting in line. I'm also a punk who donates cash to various tournaments for sponsorhips, donates merch for CTPs and raffles, and has sponsored an occasional disc golfer from time-to-time.
Hope to meet you in Lewisville for the Texas 10 finals (unless you're playing MPO, as you semi-routinely do, on Sunday).
And save the 'cockfetish' personal attacks for when you meet me face-to-face. I'll get a bigger kick out of it that way.
2 suggestions:
1- Go back to B-tier for INT and Rec
2- Go trophy only low entry for INT and Rec. $25 entry fee...$4 to PDGA and $20 player pack. That leaves one dollar per player to go towards trophies. $25 is not alot to be able to participate in a State Championship A-tier plus you get a $20 PP. If you have to reach the 120% mark then I am sure the retail value of the PP can be fudged a little again (oops did i say that outloud :) )
sandalman
Oct 25 2004, 11:43 PM
no lie, but i did get the initials wrong. i played MPM, not MPO... pro masters. sincerest apologies for that error. kinda like you saying your rating is 878 when its really 879. not much of a difference, but a lie in your eyes i guess.
i've played at least one T10 as MPM, so add that one to your log. i wont being playing in lewisville, because i'm not really into one day events. the public threats are a nice touch, thanks.
since you do give a lot to the sport in terms of sponsoring, etc, then why in the world would you have the audacity to so vocally criticize the staff on sunday? hiding behind the mob, it seems. its odd that someone who is a contributor would not take their concerns to the TD in private, rather than making a fool of themself like that.
tbender
Oct 25 2004, 11:45 PM
While I would completely disagree with moving it back to an A/B split, the second option would be interesting and worth looking into. Too bad most players play for the dollars and wouldn't show up.
Tony: I love ya to death But i do not go to the Casino or the race track without the intention on winning more $$ then i brought with me. I play Disc Golf for the fun of the game... everytime i go out and play casual rounds...
tbender
Oct 26 2004, 12:03 AM
Robert, they have a division in Disc Golf called Open for those who want to make money at the game. The rest of us are, despite the payouts, still Amatuers. I would still be playing the event schedule I do if it was trophy only.
Casinos and Ponies are completely different situations, there are no Amatuers...
Hey... I used the payout that i recieved to Buy my caddy, My niece, who walked the whole tourney and didnt complain once even in the rain, a shirt.
Casino and ponies are different they are still a form of entertainment. I guess i should just take my discs and go back to just local casual play. stop trying to promote out of town events during EACH week of our leagues. Telling people that are new or that have never went over and played in the Texas states that this is one of the fattest payout tournies year in year out. and then have them ask me what happened.. Or have them tell me they are glad they chose not to go after all..... I donno..
esalazar
Oct 26 2004, 08:04 AM
Robert, they have a division in Disc Golf called Open for those who want to make money at the game. The rest of us are, despite the payouts, still Amatuers. I would still be playing the event schedule I do if it was trophy only.
Casinos and Ponies are completely different situations, there are no Amatuers...
i win money all the time!!!!
seewhere
Oct 26 2004, 08:39 AM
This isn't a Texas States issue, it is happening everywhere. Tournaments will be making their payouts, but for the lower entry fee divisions, not much is left after taking out $4 PDGA fees and $25 for players packs
and this is suppose to help the PDGA GROW HOW???
tbender
Oct 26 2004, 10:33 AM
Make up your mind. Do you want the Ams to have fat payouts or do you want money for the Pros?
The idea behind the Players Packs is that everyone gets something, which logically would make more people happy. Yet it didn't because Ams have been programmed to look at the payout amounts as the be all end all. Not one who complained considered the Pack as payout, which it is (good or bad).
Would people be complaining as much if the Pack was a States Item (either Disc, Towel, or T-Shirt) and a $10-15 voucher? Maybe that's something to be considered....
seeker
Oct 26 2004, 10:56 AM
2 suggestions:
1- Go back to B-tier for INT and Rec
2- Go trophy only low entry for INT and Rec. $25 entry fee...$4 to PDGA and $20 player pack. That leaves one dollar per player to go towards trophies. $25 is not alot to be able to participate in a State Championship A-tier plus you get a $20 PP....
I tend to agree with you Scott.
3 thoughts:
A. A tourney has to deal with real world economics. Although I like the idea of TX States being an A tier tourney, it may be that economics dictate otherwise. The pressure of the PDGA $$ requirements and dwindling sponsorships are forcing entry fees ever higher. I'm hearing that tourney attendance nationwide is dropping off. I'm for whatever keeps TX States financially healthy.
B. AM payout is an oxymoron. I'm totally for lower entry fees and NO prizes. PPs are great but that doesn't motivate me either. Most AMs don't play tourneys because of the payout. Most AMs are not realistically in contention for the payout. The top players in each division should NOT be financially incented to play a tourney for the prize instead of moving up.
C. All the $$ should go to the PROs. Sponsor money too if there is any. But lacking other sources of $$, if they only show up in small numbers, they should be prepared to play for smaller winnings.
Nelle 18131
Oct 26 2004, 10:59 AM
$100 of the Open Women came from me as a sponsor of that division.
Player's packs valued at no less than $25 are required by the PDGA for every Am entrant in an A-Tier. This money comes out of the entry fees first, and might be replaced in the payout by sponsorships.
All the money is accounted for. Ams received the required 120% payout. The Rec payout standards are very flat and deep. Only Pro and Advanced still spike up hard for 1st and 2nd places.
This isn't a Texas States issue, it is happening everywhere. Tournaments will be making their payouts, but for the lower entry fee divisions, not much is left after taking out $4 PDGA fees and $25 for players packs.
Thank you Gary for making this clear and to the point. I can't understand the other jibber jabber.
tbender
Oct 26 2004, 11:00 AM
Most AMs don't play tourneys because of the payout.
Michael, I used to believe that too...until this weekend.
cgflesner
Oct 26 2004, 11:04 AM
if all the money went to pros then that is all we would have in disc golf is pros, what would this solve.
the pros pay out would drop enormously becouse they would be no ams attending these events, with out ams attending these events why would anyone want to run any tournaments.
but i can see how the ams could be upset this year, just for the reason that last year all the winners got baskets as their pay out which did not happen this year.
Lyle O Ross
Oct 26 2004, 11:04 AM
Tony: I love ya to death But i do not go to the Casino or the race track without the intention on winning more $$ then i brought with me. I play Disc Golf for the fun of the game... everytime i go out and play casual rounds...
This is my favorite gambling misperception. No one beats the house over time, the odds are in their favor. :D Intentions are nice but have nothing to do with reality.
tbender
Oct 26 2004, 11:09 AM
but i can see how the ams could be upset this year, just for the reason that last year all the
winners got baskets as their pay out which did not happen this year.
All the winners last year did not get baskets...just the Advanced divisions.
Lyle O Ross
Oct 26 2004, 11:44 AM
The issues of Am payout and payout structure are not new. It seems to me that the PDGA is trying to create a payout structure that doesn't give incentive to good players to stay Am because of high payouts, and that spreads the money back down by way of player�s packages. Their intent is to keep the lesser players involved by giving them something back. As was pointed out earlier in this thread, 90% of the players are quite satisfied with their experience. If it weren't for the players pack I would not cough up $60 for this event. I would try and stick with smaller less expensive tourneys despite the wonderful experience involved.
Nick Night has been arguing for over a year now that the PDGA needs to build a tournament structure that allows for players who want to play for glory (a trophy) without putting in a ton of money. In this structure, at the Am level there would be even less cash coming in, but what was there would kick up to the few players at the top who want to play for payout. The only problem is there would be very few of these players, so payout would remain thin. The reality is that one way or the other, this is going to happen. Maintaining a highly motivated supporting base of players who are willing to pay $30 to $60, most of which kicks back up to a handful of guys at the top, is going to be impossible. I talk to the guys at the bottom end of the pool (where I reside thank you) and increasingly they are looking for an avenue that allows a big tournament atmosphere, but doesn't cost them an arm and a leg (Of course afterwards they get the pleasure of listening to the big dogs at the top fighting over their lost arm and leg :D).
Somewhere along the line we have to decide; are Ams playing for money, or are they playing for glory? Please don't tell me that an Am player who cashes multiple times for $100s of dollars isn't making some money selling plastic. Even the idea that players at the Am level are complaining about their payout is counter to the whole idea that they're amateurs. This issue needs to be addressed by the PDGA as a whole and a structure that is fair to everyone needs to be put in place. That structure can include multiple Pro levels of payout but should not include Ams playing for what are essentially cash generating prizes.
I have said in the past that Disc Golf is still too young to support the kind of payout that guys at the top are looking for, for very long. I think these payout complaints are one aspect of that, and I'm not the first to have that thought. I suspect that increasingly we are going to see players at the bottom of the food chain unwilling to pay for the guys at the top. The notion the big dogs have, that they are somehow owed something by the TD or by the lesser players denies reality. They aren�t owed anything. The TDs job is to build a tournament that many want to come to, that is reality. If the reality is that the best way to get many players involved is to give a fat payout on top and kick nothing back down then that is what will happen. The fact that the PDGA is moving away from that format suggests it may have problems. On the other hand, as has been posted many times here, there are a lot of high-ranking Ams that aren�t coming to TS next year because they aren�t getting a cushy enough payout. That may be reality.
One last thought, I always find it amusing to read posts in one thread, some which complain that not enough of the money is coming up to the top Am players, and others which complain that Am money should not go up to the pro players. :D
keithjohnson
Oct 26 2004, 01:14 PM
2 suggestions:
1- Go back to B-tier for INT and Rec
2- Go trophy only low entry for INT and Rec. $25 entry fee...$4 to PDGA and $20 player pack. That leaves one dollar per player to go towards trophies. $25 is not alot to be able to participate in a State Championship A-tier plus you get a $20 PP....
I tend to agree with you Scott.
3 thoughts:
A. A tourney has to deal with real world economics. Although I like the idea of TX States being an A tier tourney, it may be that economics dictate otherwise. The pressure of the PDGA $$ requirements and dwindling sponsorships are forcing entry fees ever higher. I'm hearing that tourney attendance nationwide is dropping off. I'm for whatever keeps TX States financially healthy.
B. AM payout is an oxymoron. I'm totally for lower entry fees and NO prizes. PPs are great but that doesn't motivate me either. Most AMs don't play tourneys because of the payout. Most AMs are not realistically in contention for the payout. The top players in each division should NOT be financially incented to play a tourney for the prize instead of moving up.
C. All the $$ should go to the PROs. Sponsor money too if there is any. But lacking other sources of $$, if they only show up in small numbers, they should be prepared to play for smaller winnings.
actually since the pdga is LOWERING tier standards for 2005 texas states could STILL be an a-tier next year and have to pay out less and raise less 6000/500 added in 2005 for a-tier
just my thoughts...since i have run a few events in my day :D
leave the gecko alone! :D
DweLLeR
Oct 26 2004, 01:27 PM
Seems to me the energy put into these threads needs to be redirected to finding sponsorship. IMO this issue would no longer exist. Quit complaining and get off your arse and contribute time and energy to the cause. :p
esalazar
Oct 26 2004, 02:13 PM
better players packs , if a player pack is necessary, would be nice!!! how many of you actually need more t-shirts and plastic.. especially t-shirts valued at $15 that are only worth a fraction of that.if you want contributions towards pro-payout or a charitable cause just ask , don't disguise it.
esalazar
Oct 26 2004, 02:19 PM
hell sell me a nice dinner and beer, this is much more feasible.. that would also be a nice players pack.these tournaments could be marketed as a package deal of some sort.with a little creativity the possibilities are endless. :p :p :p :p :p :p
esalazar
Oct 26 2004, 02:26 PM
i would pay $100 dollars for the right cause and a dinner etc.. or some other package variety!! and with no expectation of payout!!trophy only perhaps!!
DweLLeR
Oct 26 2004, 02:33 PM
Theres thinking! Hooters or any resturant gives you gift cards or certificates good for say $10.00. Undoubtedly they should be very willing considering the $10 would be just an app while anything spent above that could be considered 'icing on the cake' they might not normally get. Heck, make it good for use only during the days or nights of the tournement. I dont know of any resturant that would turn down a potentially full house of dg'rs looking to spend $20-50 pending their 'spirits' consumption. :D
stephenbrower
Oct 26 2004, 02:37 PM
While we are on the subject of payouts... I have your winnings Billy Nelson! I also have your players package!
Did anyone show up to be the State Champion of the great state of Texas? That's what I wanted!
The thing that sucked about this tourney was the long drive home.
Thank you to everyone who put time into this tournament! Thank you sponsors. Thank you spotters. Thank you Chipotle. Thank you for the players pack. Thank you
Fajita Flatts for the fun Sat. night! Thank you mowers!
One other thing camping $6.00 x 4 people per night Almost Heaven Resort very nice!
I had fun
Here is some more food for thought.
I know a guy that plays in paintball tourneys. We were talking about how they do things. They have different levels of skill ( like disc golf) and at tourneys the winners not only win a trophy but Cash is part of the prizes. All divisions. I guess giving them a couple of handfulls of paintballs would be the equal to the Disc golf ams getting plastic. I know of some 3 on 3 basketball tournies that pay out cash to winners... they are not pro players..... Ball golf... am i not wrong but do they give out $$ to the winners and cashers during the weekend and weekday tournies? Look i got my shirt , disc and towell ( almost wet my pants) and i got another shirt (which i was going to get for my caddy if i cashed) with my payout.. I do not need any more discs. If i want 1 i will by one. If i was there to try and win me a flash or something new with the payout, I would be stupid. why not spend the $15 and just go buy it rather then spend $39 for a chance to get it for free.
who knows.... who cares.... Just play! ( ok i am done with this )
krazyeye
Oct 26 2004, 03:31 PM
I agree with esalazar a good dinner and a beer is a good idea. If I want to ensure I get plastic I'll buy it. I was last cash Rec. I ain't whining. I'll be back next year hopefully Int. Thanks to Mr Evol 2u/captklank and Brock camping was fun. Oh and Baggers move up or move over.
jdavidson
Oct 26 2004, 05:16 PM
I have to admit that I feel a little dirty having read all of this mess......... I agree with McCaine's assessment about non-cashing players in higher divisions. Let's look at it like this: as a hypothetical, let's say you have 100 players, and you have 10 divisions split evenly at 10 players a piece, let's say that 5 players are going to "cash" in the recreational division. Let's also assume that the recreational division for these purposes is for the players with the lowest player ratings. Going off of that, the 91st, 92nd, 93rd, 94th, and 95th best players out of a 100 player tournament are complaining that they didn't receive more than a $30 players pack and a $30 payout for their weekend play. I don't want this to sound like I'm trying to belittle the recreational division, because I have respect for everyone who enjoys the sport I Love....... It's an unfortunate commonplace when a player reaches a point when he or she is to good for his own division but not good enough yet to cash in the next, so they make the move (sometimes under pressure), and then watch as players they regularly beat in lower divisions complain about lack of payout.
On a different note, sorry I missed this one, first time in five years, but it was consolation getting to caddy for Clutch as he pulled out the biggest win of his budding disc golf career.
JD & Clutch, future force in Pro Doubles, we will see. :)
Chris Hysell
Oct 26 2004, 05:57 PM
My thoughts on Texas states.
They hold that event far from my house. Far, very far.
tbender
Oct 26 2004, 06:00 PM
We do that on purpose Chris.....
discgolfdog
Oct 26 2004, 06:21 PM
Well run tournament as always. Larry and staff did an excellent job. I don't care about the payout. My only question is how come the old man baggers didn't get to play the Powell course? 3 rounds, no Powell. :confused:
Chris Hysell
Oct 26 2004, 06:55 PM
see, I knew it was a conspiracy
the_kid
Oct 26 2004, 07:32 PM
I did the formats so that all adv and open players were able to play all 3 courses, but it seems that someone took the Adv Master's out of the Adv pool on sunday. :confused: It will be right next year promise. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
ching_lizard
Oct 27 2004, 02:22 AM
I have been examining the differences between my TD report from last year and this year, and I think it's interesting how some things shook out on our income side...
<table border="1"><tr><td> Income</td><td>2003 TSDGC</td><td></td><td></td><td>US$</td><td>
</td></tr><tr><td></td><td></td><td></td><td>
</td></tr><tr><td>Pro Entry Fees</td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td> $3,655 </td><td>
</td></tr><tr><td>Cash Sponsorships</td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td> $5,972 </td><td><
</td></tr><tr><td>Amateur Entry Fees</td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td> $6,770 </td><td><
</td></tr><tr><td>Junior Entry Fees</td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td> $200 </td><td>
</td></tr><tr><td>Non-Cash Sponsorships Value</td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td> $7,445 </td><td><
</td></tr><tr><td></td><td></td><td></td><td>
</td></tr><tr><td>Other Cash: Raffles, Contests, etc.</td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td> $416 </td><td>
</td></tr><tr><td>Logo fundraiser & beg. Balance</td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td> $460 </td><td>
</td></tr><tr><td>
</td></tr><tr><td></td><td></td><td></td><td>
</td></tr><tr><td>Income</td><td>2004 TSDGC</td><td></td><td></td><td>US$</td><td>
</td></tr><tr><td></td><td></td><td></td><td>
</td></tr><tr><td>Pro Entry Fees</td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td> $3,145 </td><td>
</td></tr><tr><td>Cash Sponsorships</td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td> $3,340 </td><td><
</td></tr><tr><td>Amateur Entry Fees</td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td> $5,285 </td><td><
</td></tr><tr><td>Junior Entry Fees</td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td> $100 </td><td>
</td></tr><tr><td>Non-Cash Sponsorships Value</td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td> $3,400 </td><td><
</td></tr><tr><td></td><td></td><td></td><td>
</td></tr><tr><td>Income</td><td>Difference (parenthesis are badddd!)</td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td>
</td></tr><tr><td></td><td></td><td></td><td>
</td></tr><tr><td>Pro Entry Fees</td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td> $(510)</td><td>
</td></tr><tr><td>Cash Sponsorships</td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td> $(2,632)</td><td>
</td></tr><tr><td>Amateur Entry Fees</td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td> $(1,485)</td><td>
</td></tr><tr><td>Junior Entry Fees</td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td> $(100)</td><td>
</td></tr><tr><td>Non-Cash Sponsorships Value</td><td></td><td></td><td></td><td> $(4,045)</td><td>
</td></tr><tr><td> </tr></td></table>
All of you folks whining about the payout this year need to look at the figures comparing just the level of income to this tournament this year as compared to the previous one.
The expense side comparision looks just as dismal...but I won't bore you with all of the details there either! There was a whopping $4,000+ income differential alone! In every single category of the TD report, the numbers were down.
You folks that rail about the payout seem a bunch of ungrateful louts to me! Is that what this sport is all about? Is that what the ambience of playing in your state championship is all about to you guys in Rec. and Int. divisions?
Geez guys! Lighten up a little, will ya? You wanna BEYoTCH about it but you don't want to do anything about it? How many events were you at where you saw one of the HFDS club members hawkin' those fund-raiser minis? How many of you folks bought one? (Let me tell you, it isn't my preferred way of raising funds...it sucks to be that desperate for tournament support.)
So how 'bout it Robert? Did you buy one of those minis? (I know you spent a lot to play in States this year, was it worth it? Isn't what it's all about is to play some great competitive golf against other fellow hot-shots? Yeah, you could've spent the weekend at a casino perhaps, but you can do that almost any weekend, can't you? And it still probably wouldn't bring you as much pleasure as playing two days of some **** good golf.)
What about you Robbie? Have you got one of those minis? Where was your cash/merch contribution? And what tournaments exactly have you sponsored - I get around to a few and I haven't seen your name on a shirt or program before...but it's possible...
Last year we packaged up the merch. for the Am winners. This year, we couldn't move any of the donated merchandise stuff much...except as CTPs. We did have one out there for every division for both rounds on Saturday...
soundconcepts
Oct 27 2004, 02:33 AM
Straight up, I agree with you completly Larry. This was my first torney and I thought it kicked *****. I played Rec and seriously I was in it for the fun not the payout. That was just an added bonus. Good work Larry! Yea there were some flaws but nothing is perfect. Overall it was more than I expected. Also anyone in Rec complaining about payout, look at this. First place won $35 but with the score he had he would have won $58 in Intermediate. So my advice, want to win more money? Move up.....
ching_lizard
Oct 27 2004, 03:21 AM
Here is what I'd like to leave as my thoughts on Texas States:
Volunteer Appreciation:
Jeff Moore - the REAL engine behind the veneer! Thanks for always being there to cover for me when it was needed!
Dave Nesbitt - donated layout, programs, treasure hunt, programming, scoring and tons of advice. Tee signs, maps and generally anything else that needed printing...
Greg Parker - water boy extraordinaire!!! (I promise to try and get more than one golf cart w/out leaky tires! :D)
Paul "Pablo" Richardson - water boy (retired) and now my tap handle monitor!
"Mr Ed" Morgan - the best inventory manager we could ask for! Thanks for manning the sales and the pick-your-own!
Louis Hall - snagged 18 baskets from just about everyone he knew had some and then shuffled them around when necessary too! Great trophies too Louis!
Jerry and Karen Crites - You are truly the "Bass Master" and I'm grateful to you for working to get that park in the best shape I've seen it in the 6 years I've been playin' out there! Thanks to Karen for spotting out there in spite of her painful knee!
Melissa Harris - my girlfriend who worked out there on both days keeping TD hours! (The very first tourney she ever even attended!) :D
Diane Killacky - she did a little of everything for us, from working sales behind the tables, to spotting discs on Wilmont #14!
Lyle Ross - he stepped up to help us out this year when Andi had to ease out. Hey man! You up for makin' another run at this thing for the whole show this time?
Andi Lehmann - thanks for getting us kicked off this year, hosting the first batch of meetings and for the continued support you gave when you could up to the end.
Don Wilchek - for all of your experience, guidance and for helping me out with the basket-o-prizes stuff. Wish you could get that elbox fixed and come back and play too next year!
Max Lehmann - Steve Durham - (Steve's son and Greg Parker's nephew) - Conrad Joe - Roger Blair - John "Cong" Conger - Kimhak Pech - (and please don't take it personally if I've forgotten your name...I'll remember next time!)
Everything ran smooth thanks to your experienced help! All rounds essentially got off on time (well...except for early Sunday morning rounds... :D)
The real thought I hope everyone has about their experience at Texas States is that due to the efforts of the people mentioned above, and the countless hours of effort that they gave, we pulled off a successful tournament under some trying circumstances...and another quality Texas State Disc Golf Championship was run!
Next year will be the Tenth year of the tournament. I hope that we can find more sponsorship support along with more volunteers. We keep offering to involve other clubs, and we will continue to seek out involvement on the part of every disc golfer in the State!
We'll start out next year's planning a little earlier, and ask everyone that might be interested to contribute a logo for the 2005 show!
rcazares
Oct 27 2004, 03:53 AM
My daughter (Nicole) thinks it is strange that disc golf tournament winners get discs and stuff rather than trophies. In all her other sports she wins trophies, medals, or ribbons. I even had to buy her a trophy case to put all her trophies. I think she would much rather win a trophy for her trophy case rather that win some discs that she will eventually use up and replace.
I played in one disc golf tournament about 15 years ago. I came in 3rd place in the rec. division and won a medal. I still have that medal and it brings back some good memories. So personally (as an amatuer), I would rather win a trophy than win plastic.
Anyway, I just thought I would share my thoughts on the subject. By the way, I really enjoyed Texas States, eventhough all I did was caddie for my daughter.
Thanks.........Rick
seewhere
Oct 27 2004, 08:35 AM
Larrry So I take this as there will be a "FLAT" payout scale as well next year for REC and INT? Please lets be clear for 05 on how they payout will be. That is my only BEEF. Thanks again for all the HARD WORK!
scoop
Oct 27 2004, 09:04 AM
What about you Robbie? Have you got one of those minis? Where was your cash/merch contribution? And what tournaments exactly have you sponsored - I get around to a few and I haven't seen your name on a shirt or program before...but it's possible...
Larry,
I've stated that this was a great tourney. Sorry that you can't take a little honest criticism. I've repeated that my only problem was the disparity in payout, and that the AMs obviously paid the required 'added' cash for the Pros. I stand by that assertion.
I offered, publicly, to donate cash sponsorship for the 2005 Texas States. Your response? Insult me and call me out on other tournies I've contributed to. Hard to imagine why sponsorship was down.
Edited to Delete the information about tournaments that I've sponsored or contributed to this year. Larry has called me out publicly. He's wrong. But I'll keep my level of sponsorships private, as they should be.
As for your fund raising mini: Nope don't have one. But that probably had a lot to do with the fact that today, reading your post, was the first time I've ever heard of them.
I can't donate to every club and every event that I play in. The ones I chose are near and dear to me AND the TDs were proactive in seeking out my sponsorship.
ching_lizard
Oct 27 2004, 09:18 AM
Next year's payout will also follow similar PDGA guidelines - just like this year and last year. If sponsorship efforts go well, then payouts will return to levels like they were last year! But it will take a lot more involvement and support than what we had this year to make it happen.
Could I post payouts before the end of the tourney? Yep. I can tell you what I'd budget them to be though - it would be exactly what PDGA guidelines specify them to be...125% Pros / 120% Ams. Is that what you want? I can't tell you what dollar amounts that would be unless you can tell me what registration counts are gonna be.
We run the finances of this event in such a way that we kick every last nickel back into the tournament itself. We usually budget about $500 for a staff party...this year we didn't hold any funds back for our staffers. :( :( :( (And our staffers rocked!)
Last year, we added over $1,000 cash to the advanced division alone! Rec division had over $200 added cash last year to a smaller field than what we had this year.
Get real Ware! I think we've demonstrated that when our sponsorship is good, our payouts are good. It seems like what you are asking for is a guarantee of payout before we have ANY sponsorship or player count. I want to see you run such an event...
What I can tell you is that in light of the income differential from this year, we'll be re-examining the club's tournament sponsorship levels for the many tournaments and events we support throughout the year in other cities around the state. There are many we will continue to support as we always have, but others are gonna have to find their own sponsorship dollars next year.
seewhere
Oct 27 2004, 09:28 AM
so you are saying that the REC and INT will payout all players? you dont know if next year you will do the same or not?? YOU GET REAL. I see why sponsorship was down this year your attitude stinks.
What I can tell you is that in light of the income differential from this year, we'll be re-examining the club's tournament sponsorship levels for the many tournaments and events we support throughout the year in other cities around the state. There are many we will continue to support as we always have, but others are gonna have to find their own sponsorship dollars next year
and what is this some kind of threat to other clubs? that will help you get more sponsors. maybe you should try raising $$ all year and not just the last 4-5 weeks prior to the tourney.
So how 'bout it Robert? Did you buy one of those minis? (I know you spent a lot to play in States this year, was it worth it? Isn't what it's all about is to play some great competitive golf against other fellow hot-shots? Yeah, you could've spent the weekend at a casino perhaps, but you can do that almost any weekend, can't you? And it still probably wouldn't bring you as much pleasure as playing two days of some **** good golf.)
Larry,
Yes i did buy minis. I believe that i have 5 and i got more with the left over payout. I did state that i got my caddy something and got to bring my boy home something and that was good for me. Yes alittle disappointed in the payout but i was MORE upset with the way that DOUG was bashed up abit at the begginng of the thread and he is such a nice guy ( and i dont care what people think) that i wanted to strand by him and relay the messages i heard throughout the waiting time we had. Larry, Tommy came over and talked with you about this and you answered everything . Yes it made sence but when I try to pimp tournies to our locals to try and get them to go out of town to go play, and tell them that the TEXAS STATES is usually one of the best tournies that i have played that has fat payouts, and yes TONY, alot of AMS look at the Payouts, and they tell me after seeing the payouts they are glad they didnt go. What am i to do. Hey, and i also never once complianed about the tourney, enjoyed every round, I even told you i was having a blast ( even incurring the penalty strokes) I guess i will just from now on play events and stay annonymous, show up play, see if i cash and go home and be quiet...... God i love the SN,
The casino reference was to make a point to tony. And when you play in NL Tx Holdem tourney at the casino.. yeah it has the same fun as disc golf...
ching_lizard
Oct 27 2004, 10:15 AM
Not a PDGA member so I�m piggy-backing on Ching�s userid. I�m the girlfriend � would that make me Bling Lizard?
Anyway � was wondering if HFDS were to hold a NL Texas Hold�em tournament as a fund-raiser for 2005 States, is there any interest out there? This is an event for which the pay-outs can be posted a head of time :). From what I can tell there are quite a few disc golfers who enjoy poker too.
my_hero
Oct 27 2004, 10:32 AM
I've finally found enough energy to post my thoughts.............
<font color="blue"> The courses:
They were in tip top shape!!! In fact, i think they were in better shape this weekend then when i played them in the 2002 pro World's. I loved the changes to the Powell. It definitely played a few strokes harder. </font>
<font color="red"> The staff:
Unbelievable as always. It was great to see Larry, Don, Dave & Kay, and all of the other VOLUNTEERS! The countless hours of work that happened behind the scenes, and your efforts the day of were greatly appreciated. A class act as always.
</font>
<font color="blue"> The players:
I couldn't have played with a better group of golfers. I enjoyed the time spent with Suzi Johnston, Joe Torres, Michael Ynfante, Matt Orum, Chris Ware, Chris Flesner, and Matt Hall. Thanks for a geat time! </font>
<font color="red"> The weather:
What can i say? The rain was right on time. We were on our 3rd hole of the 1st round when it decided to start. It was perfect. Texas States just wouldn't be the same without wet socks and shoes. :D
</font> <font color="blue"> The mishaps:
1st round- only 2 birdies on the Powell :(
2nd round- being -4 with 9 holes to play and finishing +2(even though i 3'd the Dragon and the hole before the Dragon) :(
3rd round- starting the 27 hole Wilmont perfectly. I birdied holes 1-4 and 7, took 3's on 5,6,8, and 4'd hole #9. Sitting -4 on 10's teepad was great! Too bad we couldn't stop after 9 holes. :D</font>
I'm so glad that Mrs.Hero let me out of the house for the weekend......1st time since Baby-H's birth (almost 8 months.) I'm also so glad that i chose Houston for my only traveling tournament of the year! Way to go HFDS!!!!!!!!!
Sportznut - "Yes alittle disappointed in the payout but i was MORE upset with the way that DOUG was bashed up abit at the begginng of the thread and he is such a nice guy ( and i dont care what people think) that i wanted to strand by him and relay the messages i heard throughout the waiting time we had." Thanks man, It is hard to put your neck out there. Do some people think I am not a nice guy? I am trying to make this into a positive. I have volunteered to be on the TSC staff next year and have already built a website for the tourny but I have not heard anything from anyone. :-( But it is still early, I am sure they are still mad.
Here is what I posted on the HFDS website.
This discussion is not just about the TSC cause this happens at many big tournaments and it is all about SPONSORSHIP!! IF the Sponsorship $s come in then everyone is paid well. If the sponsorship $ is low then they have to pull $ from somewhere to cover the PDGA requirements and the lower division is the choice. The only other choice TDs have is to say, "Pros we didn't get the sponsorship $ in this year like we hoped so your payout is just not going to be what that PDGA requires" and then have the potential going down a tier the next year. I don't know what the answer is. Is it the TD's responsibility to get enough sponsorships or is it the Am divisions responsibility to help cover the gap between the PDGA requr. and the sponsorship $??? or both???
So the next logical question is what can we all do to improve the sport to bring in more/better sponsors? Is the answer apperance? name recognition? Publicity? Getting a gallery to watch the sport. Right now a sponsorship means that you are mainly advertising to the players that are involved in the event. Maybe we need to make it more "viewing friendly"
Peace,
Doug Rogers
gnduke
Oct 27 2004, 11:06 AM
I don't see where a disclaimer was required. The tournament followed the PDGA guidelines for payout. Only those tournaments that plan to use different scales or methods than the PDGA recommends should advertise it in advance.
Added cash and merch sponsorship was added where available. Because it was pick your own prizes, most of the merch was not appropriate for pick your own, and had to be used for CTPs.
The need to reach A-Tier numbers with very limited income prevented much from being added to the Am divisions. This is also in line with PDGA recommendations. The PDGA has minimum payout percentages (above 100%) for all divisions, added cash sponsorship then goes to the Pro purse to meet the minimum requirement there. Anything left over after that can then be added to fatten the Am purses as well. It doesn't look like there was anything left over.
seewhere
Oct 27 2004, 11:11 AM
I don't see where a disclaimer was required
no one said required it would just be nice to know before hand if they plan on paying the whole field in REC and INT that is all I am saying. than maybe some folks will move up if they knew before hand.
gnduke
Oct 27 2004, 11:21 AM
Did I miss something ?
The player packs were in line with the $25 required for an A-tier.
Fromthe payouts:
Rec had 28 players, 14 were paid.
Int had 22 players, 11 were paid.
Rec women were all paid.
Jrs 2 of 3 were paid.
tbender
Oct 27 2004, 11:21 AM
Define "paying the whole Rec and Int fields."
Ware, one question why are you even concerned with this? You aren't affected, and your brother didn't get screwed. Never seen a Pro whine about the lower divisions not getting enough.
tbender
Oct 27 2004, 11:23 AM
No Gary. Ware is missing something. I think he lost it in his beer.
seewhere
Oct 27 2004, 11:34 AM
Ware, one question why are you even concerned with this?
UH I think it is because they (rec & int) are the future of this sport and if you screw em early and often they won't be back. the whole idea is to make the sport grow isn't? I would like to see the ADV Field do FLAT payouts and see how many BAGGERS move up or do not show up.
tbender
Oct 27 2004, 11:43 AM
I would like to see the ADV Field do FLAT payouts and see how many BAGGERS move up or do not show up.
Wow, I actually agree with that....
Who are you and what have you done with Ware? :)
james_mccaine
Oct 27 2004, 11:56 AM
I don't agree with the logic there Chris and I don't know if anyone got "screwed" here.
I have no problem with ams voicing their complaints about subsidizing pros. Seems like a reasonable concern. I personally agree with them. I view it as "we're all in this together."
However, I find it somewhat incredulous to hear ams state that they should get paid more. It's like a nurses aid compaining that they should get more money than some of the doctors.
I also claim that the setup of "financially incentivising" amateurs has done much more to hinder our sport than help it. It creates a culture where people are encouraged to play down and has led to higher "bets" for people in all divisions (to sweeten their "payouts), many of whom just quit playing.
So, in summary, I think the longterm growth of the sport will be aided by a flat payout system. However, in the meantime, people will demand the crack that they have grown used to.
seeker
Oct 27 2004, 12:06 PM
Well stated James!
:cool:
We agree
(which makes you brilliant) ;)
I believe everyone that plays and stays because of their love of the game is concerned with the long-term health of this sport and has great intentions behind their comments.
Lyle O Ross
Oct 27 2004, 12:14 PM
Hey Doug,
This is the $64,000 question, getting sponsors.
I helped in the sponsorship part of this tournament (that is, I'm the guy who didn't bring in the bacon). This year was particularly tough. I approached over 50 potential sponsors all of who said they would like to but this year was tough. Many of TS previous sponsors said similar things or kicked in significantly less than they had the year before. There are a lot of reasons for this but most implied it was the economy. They just didn't feel as confident as they did last year and in previous years.
The sponsorship question has been a reoccuring one throughout the community. The question continually comes up - are we high profile enough to be able to demand high dollar sponsorships? It seems we have enough bodies (500,000 play) but how does that transfer into sponsorship dollars? What is the value? Innova, Discraft, Gateway etc. have a vested interest and sponsor regularly. For other sponsors, we still don't have enough impact. Even with 500,000 players we just don't make it on their radar, there aren't enough big dollars in the sport, and not enough spectators that they can tap into.
Most of the sponsorships that do come in appear to be on the level of connections. Someone knew someone and worked a deal - keep in mind that I'm referring to the general case, I'm sure there are exceptions. For example, there are the cases where sponsorship is tied to charity. Chris Himing has done a phenomenal job with this approach.
There is another avenue to take and that is to utilize our image. We often get slammed for it but as has been pointed out by Dan Howard, and Bump, sometimes the bad boy image is appreciated.
One sponsorship that didn't deliver for us, although they committed and got onto our shirts, was Red Bull (some timing snafu I'm guessing). My thought is that Red Bull is stricktly interested in our image. That cool cutting edge sport counter culture positioning.
Honda motors is also trying to associate the Element with disc golf, again, the same message. If we can tap into that theme, it won't matter that there are no big bucks as of yet, our image will be sufficient.
The question is can that image be marketed and what is it worth? Red Bull was only interested in product placement, not cash sponsorship. Most big companies work that way. Their view is, why should I give money to something that won't pay back big if I can give some product that I can overvalue? You have to really build that image into a valuable commodity first. This is what the X games did with skate boarding etc.
tbender
Oct 27 2004, 12:15 PM
James, one problem. How do we wean folks off the crack without killing the player base (or worse, the PDGA player base)?
Lyle O Ross
Oct 27 2004, 12:18 PM
The question James, is when are we going to do something about this?
The problem becomes increasingly obvious but the solution is not. The PDGA doesn't want to implement a change that is going to alienate a significant number of their paying members, and I agree with them. What's the solution?
I have been reading this thread with interest and I must say it is alarming and disconcerting. I did not attend Texas States this year for family reasons, though I haven't missed many since it first got started. First of all, I know first hand TD'ing is a difficult task. I haven't been to any perfect events, because there are no perfect people or TDs. There will always be mistakes or oversights. Usually this means a person or group didn't derive the tournament experience they were hoping for. I can assure you, no one sets out to deliberately hurt anyone, it just happens when you deal with the complexities of an event as large as an "A" tier or any event with more than 50 players. I can tell you it hurts a lot to hear negative comments about your event. If you don't like the way an event is run, then vote with your wallet the next year. I do, and I won't mention the events I avoid. Anyway, that's my take, and I sincerely hope the Houston crew doesn't walk away from this event.
Finally, I have to say that I think the Rec division is a misnomer. I liked the Novice tag, because it carried a negative stigma, and players don't want to be known as novices for very long. This is the main reason the (novice) rec division has swelled the past two years. To me, if you have played in a couple of tournaments, then you're not a novice, you are an intermediate. If we have to stick with the recreational tag, I would add it as a division just ahead or to the side of novice, but I would have recs play for a minimal entry fee or for free, and give out trophies. Isn't that what playing recreationally is about? The last time I "recreated" I didn't get paid for being the first hiker up the hill. Next I'd split up intermediate into two groups Int I and Int II. I know there are players out there who are not going to get any better no matter how much they practice, so they should be allowed to compete for payout in a division that at least gives them a hope of being competitive. I know recs who have won multiple events so maybe if they believed they had a shot of being competitive in Int II, they would compete there, or if they knew up front that rec didn't pay out anything but trophies. But if they want to play "recreationally" in an organized tournament where most people play to win, fine, have a great time, enjoy the camraderie and the experience of being around others who love this sport, just don't expect rewards for being the first up the hill. Ok, I'm done.
james_mccaine
Oct 27 2004, 12:41 PM
Tony and Lyle. I really don't see the phenomenon of short term mass-dropouts as a problem. At all. I think the main reason I don't is because I tend to think in long time frames and only value arguments that also take the long term view. I am open to any system that will work, but I have viewed this one for a relatively long time, and it does not work.
In sum, if I am convinced that a course of action is best in the long run, I care little about the immediate consequences. For the life of me, I don't see why the PDGA just doesn't go cold turkey on this issue. I mean, this system is corrupt to the core and on top of that, it is not even successful.
ps. I also don't buy the commonly held belief that all ams are motivated solely by greed. I suspect there are as many that drop out of this system as there are those that would drop out of a true amateur system.
cgflesner
Oct 27 2004, 12:41 PM
i completely agree with you on the NOVICE division, it is a joke how many tournament some of these guys have played in.
but we just need 4 divisions to chose from
intermediate
advanced
pro
pro masters
this would solve the pay out issue for sure, and i have never seen a tournament where the recreational winner revieved more that $40 so i don't see how these guys can complain about getting $35 for playing REC!!!!!!!!
gnduke
Oct 27 2004, 12:43 PM
While I agree with the general content of your post, I disagree with the wording. The AMs are not subsidizing the Pros, the TDs are with subsidizing the Pros with what would otherwise be profits from disc sales (Prizes are after another form of disc sales).
Very few TDs actually payout the Am divisions at 150% of full entry fees. There are a lot of TDs that do not subtract the PDGA fee and Player packs from entry fees before calculating payout.
Personally I do not feel this is the proper thing to do as it skews the payout percentages downward.
Example: B-Tier -
+$35 entry fees (20 players)
$700 total entry fees
-$200 ($10 players packs required * 20 )
-$ 60 ( $3 PDGA fees * 20 )
=$440 ( money left for payout )
If you payout $440 retail plus players packs, you meet 100%
If you have sponsorship cover the players packs, or eat the expense of the players packs, you have $700 to payout and probably consider the $700 as 100% payout.
You have really added $460 directly to the payout.
Players packs are considered part of the payout so the payout is now $700 plus $200 in players packs.
In the first case, 20 players pay $35 and receive a $10 players pack plus $440 in payout.
Total payout is $440 + $200 = $640 - Percentage = 100%
In the second case, 20 players pay $35 and receive a $10 players pack plus PDGA fees covered plus $700 in payout.
Total payout is $700 + $200 = $900 - Percentage = 140%
The second case is more in line with what players have come to expect since player packs have been optional in the past and not subtracted from entry fees before payouts were calculated.
Lyle,
Now we are talking about this seriously and I am glad to see this discussion turning into a serious discussion about the issue.
For Houston: I do think that some things might at least change the image of the group to help bring about better appreciation and someday future sponsorships.
1. Change the clubs name. If I was a potential sponsorship and saw Houston FLYING DISC SOCIETY I would think it was some silly hippy club. Not a serious group of individuals that are serious about their sport and competition which the HFDS is. Could there be any more tye-dye at the TSC? (man, I am going to get nailed for suggesting this) That image is associated with Drug use, lazyness, and more and that is not what the HFDS is about at all.
2. Have an "Invite a Sponsor Day" out at the Park. Everyone dress up nice and potential sponsors get spoiled a little and shown the game. Food, recreation for the sponsors and their families. (man, I just came up with that, what a great idea) Heck, invite all the sport news people out too. It might cost some money but it could have HUGE dividends. It would be a good time to bring out the different surrounding area Park's and Rec depts.
Just two suggestions. If the answers were easy everyone would have done it by now.
And Lyle, as a person that has knocked on business's doors asking for money, thank you for all that you do. It is hard!!
Doug Rogers
Lyle O Ross
Oct 27 2004, 12:46 PM
Very good point but what would the impact on the PDGA be? Would those guys cancel their membership? Don't get me wrong James, I agree with you 100% but I'm guessing the PDGA is going to worry that they might lose a significant chunk of their membership, otherwise they would have already done this. I think the change is necessary and I would love to see it.
O.K. Nick where are you...
Lyle O Ross
Oct 27 2004, 12:56 PM
There is plenty to be said on this Doug and I will, but one thing I wanted to clear up. Most of the knocking and hard work was done by Andi. I helped her but in the end she did most of the hard work.
sandalman
Oct 27 2004, 01:07 PM
O.K. Nick where are you...
lyle, are you on the pipe again??? :D
Lyle O Ross
Oct 27 2004, 01:15 PM
By the way Pat,
I have always known you as SM or Pat, are you the Pat B that kicked some serious butt and won? :D
Sorry I didn't get to talk more with you but it looked like you were having a blast out there!
It was nice to put a face on the name and see your as nice in person as on the board.
vinnie
Oct 27 2004, 01:20 PM
WHAT! 4 divisions?
Are you all telling me rec/novice should not be a part of a tournament? Where have I heard that?
When we get to where the schedule will allow. I think there should be am weekends and pro weekends. And everyone knows I don't field recs at my events and that will not change. There are minis for these division! And flat payout WILL cure the sandbagging going on. I challenge all Texas T.d.'s to follow the flatest payout possible for your am divisions. Set the standard and the ams will know what they are getting into when signing up. At my events we are able to give great trophys for the winners and a Am player would be appricate a trophy over a bunch of plastic. And if a Am player is in it to have piles of plastic around the house, then these guys are the one killing the am divisions. If a am player is steadly winning in their division and getting paid heavly. Why would they move up?
And all you thinking I am trying to get people to move up, are WRONG. There is a time and a place for all divisions. And if a player never gets better than the division they are competive in. Then them players either make it a goal to get better or know that minis and a very few tournaments a year will be avalibile to their division. Many T.D.'s have spoiled the lower divisions, as td's let get consistant.
my_hero
Oct 27 2004, 01:28 PM
No, 5 divisions!!!! (10 w/ Women Divisions)
Rec/Novice = trophy's only
Amatuer = Prizes
Amatuer Master = Prizes
Open/Pro = Cash
Open/Pro Master = Cash
Vinne,
Just so I am clear what FLAT means. Isn't the PDGA pay scale flat? Or do you mean using the Players Packs as part of the payout?
Peace,
Doug
slowmo_1
Oct 27 2004, 01:32 PM
Heck, invite all the sport news people out too. It might cost some money but it could have HUGE dividends.
Now there is the best idea I've seen so far. How an event as big as the Texas State Disc Golf Championship, with over 150 players competing, couldn't even draw the local 2 News crew out to get 30 seconds on their sports coverage always blows my mind.
I've said it before and I'll keep saying it until I am blue...If we want sponsor dollars we MUST get some kind of TV coverage. At an even like the TSDGC this means the local sports news channels. At the national level this means 30 seconds on ESPN covering the NT tour event of the week. I would have love to have seen highlights of the USDGC on Sports Center, wouldn't you? We won't draw the sponsor $$ until we achieve the media coverage.
jbolstead
Oct 27 2004, 02:14 PM
The dead horse had been beaten to death again. Geez
Larry - Here's a summary of suggestions that should help alleviate many problems
1. Make you finances more visiable (income, expenses, payout, sponsorship) Sponsorships should only be added to payout, not calculated as part of such (eg - I don't drink during tournies. So, I don't want a sponsored keg anyhow associated with my base payout.)
2. Players packs - please include that awesome putter
3. Provide a schedule of tee times for the final round so that players don't have to wait if they know where they stand.
4. Women first in picking payout, but not the payout of their husbands.
5. Try to avoid using AM money to finance the Pro purse.
6. Bump the ratings on the 27-hole courses. That 82 is the hardest 968 rating I have ever thrown. It seems to be low b/c I don't think anyone could shoot n the 50's to get an 1060+ rating.
Lastly, please find my putter in the creek on Wilmont #8!!
My 2 cents,
Bolstead
PS - Thanks for all the great people I had the opprutunity to play with this weekend.
To all - If you don't like the payout, DON'T PLAY HIS TOURNAMENTS.
scoop
Oct 27 2004, 02:56 PM
To all - If you don't like the payout, DON'T PLAY HIS TOURNAMENTS.
You know, there's a good chance that enough people spewing "don't like it, don't play" is going to have exactly that effect. I'm certain that the last thing any TD want's is a small group telling a large group "don't play his tournaments".
'Cause, you know...we might just listen to you.
sandalman
Oct 27 2004, 03:20 PM
I have always known you as SM or Pat, are you the Pat B that kicked some serious butt and won? :D
yepper, that was me. that final round was a great race, with drama all the way thru hole 25. like last year, the first and second cards exchanged a lot of places. and also like last year, the winner did not card the best round (in the division) in any of the three rounds, but did have the second best round 2 of 3. seems like Tom Bass is not the place to blow people away then coast. Solid and steady wins out there.
it was good to meet ya too. i'm sure it wont be the last time.
tbender
Oct 27 2004, 03:21 PM
6. Bump the ratings on the 27-hole courses. That 82 is the hardest 968 rating I have ever thrown. It seems to be low b/c I don't think anyone could shoot n the 50's to get an 1060+ rating.
Last year in the slop an 83 was 959, and an 85 was 950 on the East 27. 968 might be pretty close to accurate, but some corrections are probably still pending (splitting the divisions into the correct formats, final tweaking, etc.).
Whatever the rating, Jason, your 82 and Robbie's 80 were very nice rounds....
Nelle 18131
Oct 27 2004, 03:37 PM
4. Women first in picking payout, but not the payout of their husbands.
I am LMAO. First of all, I consider me and my husdand as one person and when we both win something we usually put our money together to see what we can get. I do not feel in anyway that getting my husbands payout with mine is wrong. He is the one that got me to play and he is the one that taught me everything and the reason I am even getting paidout. Anyone who introduces a woman to disc golf deserves to get his payout when his WIFE gets hers. I can't believe that is even an issue. It took you longer to type your post than it did for me to get his payout.
gnduke
Oct 27 2004, 03:52 PM
Doug,
A flat payout means that every one that gets paid gets the same amount. You either are in the cash, or you are not. A flatter scale gives less in incremental increases as it nears the top. A linear scale gives each cashing spot the same amount above the lower spot.
i.e.
20 players - $25 of entry toward payout = $500 to payout
PDGA-PRO - 40% payout (Steep scale)
1st $167.00
2nd $100.00
3rd $65.00
4th $47.00
5th $37.00
6th $29.00
7th $27.00
8th $25.00
PDGA Adv - 40% payout (flatter scale)
1st $124.00
2nd $92.00
3rd $74.00
4th $60.00
5th $49.00
6th $39.00
7th $32.00
8th $26.00
PDGA AM-Rec - 50% payout (happens to be linear for 20 players)
1st $75.00
2nd $70.00
3rd $65.00
4th $60.00
5th $55.00
6th $45.00
7th $40.00
8th $35.00
9th $30.00
10th $25.00
Purely flat - 50% payout.
The top half of finishers get the same payout.
1st-10th get $50.00
Purely flat - 100% payout.
Every player receives the same prize with no increases.
1st-20th get $25.00 (equates getting to a free entry with a $25 purchase)
GDUKE - Thanks, that is what I thought. Would most people consider the current PDGA payscales to be flat or not? I think they seem just right.
seeker
Oct 27 2004, 04:32 PM
Last night one of the Park employees raved about how we left the park in such great shape. He said there was nothing to clean up. He really was impressed and said that most of the groups that use the park, from churches to family reunions, leave it looking like a landfill after a hurricane.
He said we are the only group the leaves it BETTER than we find it!
Way to go DGers!!!
:cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::D:D
Lyle O Ross
Oct 27 2004, 04:48 PM
I want to second what seeker said. We get slammed when things go wrong but often we don't get credit when we do things right. Thanks to every player who came to this tournament and took the time to pack their trash out and throw it away. This will pay huge in future events at this facility.
Lyle O Ross
Oct 27 2004, 04:59 PM
Also,
I noticed that everyone heeded Larry's request and stayed out of the ponds. That helps a lot with PR and the Parks Department. Of course the dead fish and the fact that someone who went in last year almost died might have helped. :D
jbolstead
Oct 27 2004, 05:48 PM
Just wondering -
What type of snakes are in and around the pond? While Gary Collier was fishing his disc out of the water, a very poisonous looking coiled/tensed up not more than three feet from Gary, Ryan, and myself.
james_mccaine
Oct 27 2004, 05:52 PM
Just curious, but what makes a snake "poisonous looking"?
jbolstead
Oct 27 2004, 05:53 PM
Triangular head would be a start.
krazyeye
Oct 27 2004, 05:55 PM
Rounded tail as well.
Lyle O Ross
Oct 27 2004, 06:00 PM
I think you get two kinds out there. The two biggies in this area are cottonmouths, very dark, almost black; and coral snakes, red, yellow, and black bands. I've heard many mentions of cottonmouths and have seen coral snakes in Houston but have never heard of anyone seeing a copperhead around here, copper to brown with large bands of light and darker color; . There are also Texas rattlers but again I've never heard a mention of one in Houston.
Lyle O Ross
Oct 27 2004, 06:05 PM
You got me thinking so I looked, there are species of rattlesnake and copperhead that are located in Eastern Texas so even though I've never heard of a sighting...
disctance00
Oct 27 2004, 06:06 PM
4. Women first in picking payout, but not the payout of their husbands.
I am LMAO. First of all, I consider me and my husdand as one person and when we both win something we usually put our money together to see what we can get. I do not feel in anyway that getting my husbands payout with mine is wrong. He is the one that got me to play and he is the one that taught me everything and the reason I am even getting paidout. Anyone who introduces a woman to disc golf deserves to get his payout when his WIFE gets hers. I can't believe that is even an issue. It took you longer to type your post than it did for me to get his payout.
NO, I am laughing my *** off you shouldn't even be in line picking plastic for you or anybody. You should just go ahead and play Open. Move on up to the east side weesey :D
Nelle 18131
Oct 27 2004, 06:07 PM
I am moving up in November :D
Just wondering -
What type of snakes are in and around the pond? While Gary Collier was fishing his disc out of the water, a very poisonous looking coiled/tensed up not more than three feet from Gary, Ryan, and myself.
Last year a golfer from Houston, Jimbo went into the water to get his disc and he came out with a rare bacteria that only 30 sum odd people have ever been infected with. 75% of them DIE!!! He was very lucky after spending months in the hospital, but the virus and drugs the hospital gave him to combat the virus tore his insides up a bit. I know I told some people at the tournament, and they just laughed at me... It would be a shame it this incident were to happen again knowing that water does not move that much. how much is that disc worth to you?
Lyle O Ross
Oct 27 2004, 06:12 PM
All of the poisenous species around here (with the exception of the coral snake) are pit vipers, they have a pit next to the eye that is involved in sensing warm blooded prey (that would be disc golfers on the hoof :D). The triangular head is a good one but the coral snake looks nothing like this.
Snakes that look poisenous to me are those that act agressively when surprised. The rearup and look you in the eye thing that rattlers/cottonmouths do is pretty spooky. I like my snakes going the other way. :D
jeterdawg
Oct 27 2004, 06:16 PM
I'm with yall...I like my snakes going the other way! I think I had cruel parents, because since when I can remember, I've had a fear of most animals starting with "S" (snakes, spiders, and sharks), due to TV I think. Hey, it wasn't my fault my parents wouldn't change the channel when Jaws 1-4 and Arachnophobia came on! I'm surprised there hasn't been a big thriller yet about snakes. And no, Anaconda doesn't count. Neither does Harry Potter 2.
disctance00
Oct 27 2004, 06:20 PM
Right on, you give em hell when you do. ;)
I do not feel in anyway that getting my husbands payout with mine is wrong. seemed to be enough pay out to go around.. but ladies first does mean ladies first lol
disctance00
Oct 27 2004, 06:37 PM
I do not feel in anyway that getting my husbands payout with mine is wrong. seemed to be enough pay out to go around.. but ladies first does mean ladies first lol
You have a husband? :confused: :D
Just wondering -
What type of snakes are in and around the pond? While Gary Collier was fishing his disc out of the water, a very poisonous looking coiled/tensed up not more than three feet from Gary, Ryan, and myself.
Hey Jason,
It was me and not Ryan, you scared the crap out me when you yelled "O *****" really loud. :eek: :eek: :eek:
Thats okay I didn't want to be remembered by that round. :cool::cool::cool:
I didn't know what kind of snake that was either, but by seeing all of the dead catfish floating in the pond, it couldn't normal. :confused: :confused: :confused:
Nice shooting though. :D:D:D
jbolstead
Oct 27 2004, 07:21 PM
I looked up the poisonous snakes of TX, and I wonder if it might have been a Cottonmouth. We had to move a hole at my home course b/c of a Watermoccasin nest. So, it wouldn't surprise me. Either way, Randy's post says it best. i am am not much for snakes. Four letter explicitives are commonly heard from my mouth when one spooks me like that.
BTW - Thanks for the bacteria info a few days later. Please add that to the list of things the TD should inform players. Now, I am really glad I didn't go after my lost putter.
tbender
Oct 27 2004, 07:38 PM
Larry did warn players to stay out of the water at the player's meeting. :)