Give me a minute to explain the whole situations here, there were 2 of them. This happened at our State Championships, an A-Tier, last weekend. Being new to tournaments I wasn't sure how to handle the situation and since nobody else seemed too upset about it I just let it go. I guess I didn't let it go 'cause here I am over a week later wondering what should have been done.

First of all, the tournament has 2 pools and uses 2 courses. I play Intermediate and the TD for the tournament as an Open player was running the opposite pool from where I was. So we had someone that I didn't know, hadn't met, and not any of the several people I played with all season knew who he was, but if the TD picked him he should be trusted.

Situation 1: After the 4th round I'm sitting explaining to some friends what happened in my group. A player throws out over an OB line that runs the right side length of the hole, which is marked by metal poles that used to have wire between them. The disc goes out near from where he threw, goes out over OB and hits one of the metal poles on its way back in and falls OB. I thought it should be marked where it first went out. The player and another in the group thought that it might be marked where it hit the pole (wishful thinking) so I said throw a provisional from both spots and we'll straighten out after the round. When we approached our TD he said that since he forgot to go over that particular OB line in the players meeting that the player should 'take which ever one you want'. Which of course he took the circle 5 from the pole instead of the correct cirlce 6 from where it first went OB.

Situation 2: After I tell a friend this he goes on to tell me that he threw a shot that was heading towards the tournament tent, which sits next to the OB line (the same one as before just further down), yelled 'Fore!', sees the disc obviously hit something and comes back inbounds. Cool, lucky bounce, he thinks, and goes on. When he approaches his disc it is no longer on the ground but is in someones hands standing near the tent. The person is upset because the disc had hit his leg and bounced back in and he was talking smack saying he shouldn't even give the disc back. He does and the group decides on a mark for where the disc probably was--the correct call I believe, and they go on. Here's the clincher, the guy with the disc was our TD--he picked up a disc off the ground while it was inbounds AND talks smack to the player!!

So I guess my question is: What can be done about either of these situations if something like this happens? Afterall, it's the TD and aren't they the ones that are suppossed to fix problems, not generate them?

-mikew

Oh yea, one more thing. An Advanced group somehow skipped a hole without anyone in the group noticing. When they finished they realized it and just threw the hole then. Once again our TD wasn't sure what to do so just let them play it, without any penalty, which I think was fine with most people but what's the rule on that?

Situation 1 depends on how the TD defined the o.b. line. O.b. lines are in bounds. Since he did not define it until that moment, I think everyone did great on this. The use of the provisional was excellent. Rule 803.08 talks about out-of-bounds and the o.b. line being in bounds. See also, http://www.pdga.com/rules/qa.php, the section on fences as o.b. lines.

Situation 2 you played correctly unless the interference was intentional which it sounds like it was not. When someone moves your disc after it has come to rest you play it where the group thinks it was. When someone hits you with a disc you give them crap for a little bit and then get over it. Whatever you bounced off of and came in bounds, lucky you, even if it was the TD. See, Rule 803.06(A).

Situation 3 was handled incorrectly. There should have been a 2-throw penalty assessed. Rule 801.04(B)(5).

You can read all the rules by clicking on Rules at the top of this page.

There is a procedure for complaining about an event. You ask the TD for the tour event evaluation form. You fill it out and give it to him to submit to the PDGA or you mail it yourself. No one but the TDs even know that this form exists and here I am giving it up!

You cannot find it on-line on the PDGA website anywhere, as far as I can tell. Team Utah has published it on their website at http://www.teamutahdiscgolf.com/Event_Evaluation.pdf (http://www.teamutahdiscgolf.com/Event_Evaluation.pdf.)

If you remove the period at the end of the URL listed above, it works.

In situation #1:

803.08 OUT OF BOUNDS
A. �The out-of-bounds line itself is considered in-bounds.

So if he hit the post which marks the OB line, then it did hit in bounds and the spot is there not where it first went out over the OB area. It's also fine to take that spot because the TD said so.

I don't get the TD picking up the disc... what was he thinking?

You may think about dropping a note to the PDGA on this. A TD in an A-tier should have better command of the rules.

We have had the discussion before about fences being OB.

I think the consensus of the RC(IIRC) was that the OB line was on the IB side of the fence. So if the disc went OB and hit the fence on the OB side then it is still OB.

But since the TD did not specify this during the player's meeting, and if there wasn't a sheet declaring what was OB given out during the player's meeting, then there is no OB on that hole.

I don't get the TD picking up the disc... what was he thinking?

You may think about dropping a note to the PDGA on this. A TD in an A-tier should have better command of the rules.


Sometimes you just lose your temper and do something stupid.
At a doubles tournament I played not so long ago, this one group was throwing on the my group on every hole. The group behind had been asked several times not to throw while the we were still in range. Then there was this altercation where someone in my group almost got hit and went back to yell at the other group, which caught the attention of a tournament official. So he went back and told the group not to throw on the group ahead, and told us not to beat the crap out of them. So on the very next hole my wife is taking her upshot and a disc lands at her feet and we look back and there they are, throwing at us again, grinning.

The one guy in our group who has not shown any anger over this picks up the disc and tosses it in the schule. Diana says he can't do that; we have to stroke them. I say that stroking them won't help because they are in a one-team division. While he is retrieving the disc, I am gathering leaves. He put the disc right back where it was, in the middle of the fairway, and we all covered it over, except Diana, who never breaks a rule.

It took them at least three holes to catch up with us again. :D

The ruling on this one is that everyone in my group, the entire Am Master division, is disqualified and referred to the PDGA for further review. Except, when I told the TD about it afterward, he laughed and said, "That is probably all you could do." So I don't think the PDGA has heard about this.

Our little secret, o.k.?

Except, when I told the TD about it afterward, he laughed and said, "That is probably all you could do." So I don't think the PDGA has heard about this.

Our little secret, o.k.?




It's a darn good thing that you are clever enough to keep this from being known by a PDGA Board of Directors Member Bruce, isn't it?

""When we approached our TD he said that since he forgot to go over that particular OB line in the players meeting that the player should 'take which ever one you want'. ''"
.
... what a horrendous answer from someone "acting" as a TD ... even at a "D-Tier" level , this response blows chunks ! ...
.
now that you know my sentiments on that farce of a response ; I'll echo others on the fact that it is universally accepted that the "O.B.-line itself" is considered "In-bounds-contact" ... rope , string , paint-line , fence , etc. ... unless otherwise specified , the whole fence structure is a safe contact : top , posts , the in-bounds-facing side , AND the out-of-bounds-facing side ...

""The ruling on this one is that everyone in my group, the entire Am Master division, is disqualified and referred to the PDGA for further review.""
.
too priceless ... :D... "after further review" , the PDGA has determined what all of us "old guys" already know : call 'em "am masters" , "adv.masters" , "adv.grandmasters" , whatever : it's the same pack of snakes & ne'er-do-wells ... and as far as these gangs of old thugs go : NOBODY has more fun in this sport than "masters" ... :D

Masters: The "Hell's Grannys" of disc golf.

Masters: The "Hell's Grannys" of disc golf.


.
... too true ... and we'll be the first ones to admit it ... :cool:

wforest...

not to start an argument with ya, but there have been a ton of threads about fence OBs.

There are a lot of people that say that if you hit an OB fence on the OB side, you take the drop at that point.

There are others on here that say that if you throw a disc and it goes OB and hits the fence when it is coming in that you have to take the drop from where it was last IB and that would NOT be where it hit the fence the second time.

I remember there was a thread on here discussion about OB fences back around July, because during the Cha Ching and Zing, I personally asked the TD the question about a disc hitting the OB fence while it is trying to come back IB.


To be honest I think that a string OB should be used near an OB fence(about 4 inches from the fence on the IB side). That way there is no confusion about this.

We have had the discussion before about fences being OB.

I think the consensus of the RC(IIRC) was that the OB line was ...

Far better than thinking about this would be to go to the rules page, read the rule, and read the official interpretation of the rule posted by the Rules Committee. Once you do that, thinking won't be necessary.

Once you do that, thinking won't be necessary.



Bill, you would be well advised to heed the word of Bruce, our resident "Master of Unecessary Thinking". :D:D ;)

That being said, this committee recommends that striking the fence does not amount to having been over fair ground, if the TD has declared the in-bounds side of the fence as the OB line. Neither the "protrusion" nor the "flexing" arguments is strong enough to overcome the common-sense conclusion that the disc has not passed back over fair ground. If you take a disc and press it to one of the diamond-shaped holes in a chain link fence, you'll find that it does not protrude enough to break the plane on the other side. If the fence is the OB line and it does flex some minimal amount when struck, then the OB line itself has flexed. The clearest way for the TD to handle fence lines is to declare the in-bounds side of the fence as the OB line, and to state explicitly that discs striking the fence have not touched in bounds.



That is the Q&A response. It states later on though that it is up to the TD.

Remember, I am not trying to start an argument. I am just using the common sense part of my brain.

I am just using the common sense part of my brain.




Didn't read the message board rules, that is not permitted here...

That's some selective quoting, Cheat, leaving out the definitive answer to the question. When nothing has been specified beyond stating that the fence marks the line, the default answer is that if a disc strikes the fence, it has touched in-bounds at that point.


If the TD has said nothing other than that the fence is the OB line (or has declared the OB side of the fence as the OB line), then you play the disc up ahead (at 280 feet), since the OB line is officially in-bounds.



Otherwise, you are right, it's the TD's call.

--Josh

... good point Cheat ... good answer Bruce ...
.
and although is probably been debated "to no end" in the past , I know some events/TDs may specify differently that the out-of-bonds-facing side of the fence is an O.B. touch , but that would mean defining the "o.b." line thru the exact center of the wire , board , post , etc. of the fence material ...
I don't totally disagree with this "imaginary cross-section" of a physical boundary material ( or do I ? :confused: ) ...
I merely defer , as does Bruce , to the "broader interpretation" and more "universally accepted" call here that striking the "out-of-bounds-facing" side constitutes "an in-bounds contact" ...

Hehe..

Then Josh, the RC is being wishy-washy in that Q&A. It says one thing and then recommends another.

I don't think it's wishy-washy at all. They state how to apply the rule when nothing at all is specified by the TD. That is the default ruling to be applied in all cases EXCEPT when the TD specifically makes it otherwise.

Their recommendation is solely intended to back up the TD who makes the distinction between the OB side and IB side of the fence. They are taking away the only argument with which one can counter the TD's ruling.

Rather than being wishy-washy, I think it's putting their collective foot down on the debate: Only the TD can over-rule the default (hitting the fence is touching IB).

--Josh

... yeah ... what he said ... :D
.
and Cheat : I glad you're not dead too ...

I am just using the common sense part of my brain.




Didn't read the message board rules, that is not permitted here...



I think Bruce must have written that rule. He has no common sense at all. I'm serious. If he needs a common sense answer, he asks me.